Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on April 28, 2007, 10:15:16 AM
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Standard question: how does your media cover this events? I see drastic difference between Russian TV channels and Euronews.
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It doesn't appear on CNN and a couple of other sources and I haven't heard of it before. What's going on?
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A soviet WWII monument is being torn down and some soviet soldiers exhumed because it hurts some people's feelings.
Some yutes object, and riots have broken out.
VOR: Where's you look? News.google.com is your friend:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1115493663
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Hrmm. Didn't look there, thanks.
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E25280
Senior Member
Did you just delete a reply?....
Euronews shows riot, but not the victims beaten and handcuffed by the polizeis. Russian channels show victims including teenagers and women, sometimes a reporter running right after the police line, screaming that this riot-police prefers to catch kids and women, as if Estonian "rubbish" doesn't understand Russian... Here in MSK this reported will get his microphone kicked into his teeth immediately, most of our riot-police spent some time in Chechnya, and they know their enemy.
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the problem is that they removed the Bronze Soldier secretly, and exhumed the graves as if it's a pet cemetary.
All they had to do was to do it after May 9th, giving all the military merits, with salute and ceremonial company.
Now they already killed a Russian citizen, leaving him to die handcuffed to a lamp-post.
I hope our Kremlin dreamers will not live it all unpunished. A country is an EU member, openly praising nazis and dealing with the remnants of the Liberators as with dogs.
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Originally posted by Boroda
E25280
Senior Member
Did you just delete a reply?....
Yes, I had deleted it. After posting the link I re-read your question and it looked like you were directing it toward Europeans and not those of us in the US.
Here is the link again if you are interested.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070428/D8OPK7L80.html
But to echo VOR a bit, I hadn't heard a peep about this until I went searching for it. But I admit I do not generally watch the 24 hour news channels. This story was #9 on a list of a "world news" link.
Over here, it seems if it isn't about Iraq, Afghanistan, Nancy Pelosi, or some Hollywood goof, it doesn't get much play.
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The problem with our news here Boroda, is that they are too busy covering Anna Nicole Smith's baby coming back to the states. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by E25280
Yes, I had deleted it. After posting the link I re-read your question and it looked like you were directing it toward Europeans and not those of us in the US.
Here is the link again if you are interested.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070428/D8OPK7L80.html
But to echo VOR a bit, I hadn't heard a peep about this until I went searching for it. But I admit I do not generally watch the 24 hour news channels. This story was #9 on a list of a "world news" link.
Over here, it seems if it isn't about Iraq, Afghanistan, Nancy Pelosi, or some Hollywood goof, it doesn't get much play.
I asked it to everyone here, the world is getting pretty small now...
Interesting that it's not in the news in the US. We have open confrontation between RF and EU member, with EU acting as usual: that unshaved female reproductive organ Solana, butcher of Yugoslavia says that riots are Russian fault, German Foreign Affairs Minister said Estonians don't understand what nazism means, and so on.
French NATO fighter squad based in Pribaltika made a first flight over Tallin to demonstrate their presence.
Russian foreign ministry threatened severe consequences for the actions of Estonian govt.
Our Parliament leaders called for a diplomatic relations cancellation with Estonia.
Let's hope that it's not only words again. They killed a Russian citizen and they will regret it.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Now they already killed a Russian citizen, leaving him to die handcuffed to a lamp-post.
I hope our Kremlin dreamers will not live it all unpunished. A country is an EU member, openly praising nazis and dealing with the remnants of the Liberators as with dogs.
Could you expand a little bit for those of us ignorant on the subject . . . does Russia consider all ethnic Russians to still be Russian citizens? Even if those of Russian decent were born in what is now an independent country? Or just former "Soviet" citizens?
As for the second part, I perfectly understand that from your perspective the Soviet forces were "Liberators." But since Estonia was temporarily an independent country after World War One, and were subjected to Soviet invasion and occupation in 1939, they apparently have a different perspective.
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"Uprising" :rofl
If the looting and vandalism would take place in Moscow you would be calling it terrorism.
Police stabbed the russian multiple times to death? I don't think it would happen even in Russia.
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And the russian was killed by another russian using knife. So how its Estonias fault?
I agree this thing could have been handled differently from the start. Now we have just to see it through.
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That's just great... everyone who doesn't please the russians are nazis.
Estonians do have a pretty good grasp of what the nazism means, but they do also know even better what kind of butchers the commies were. Over 200 000 estonians were forced to move elsewhere and thousands were killed, while hundreds of thousands people were moved to Estonia from different parts of the Soviet Union.
Communist russia itself has caused the problem by using the ancient divide & conquer tactic. Estonians are now taking back the control of their own country and they have the right to remove the symbols of the former oppressors. The russian minority should integrate into the estonian society and stay reasonable.
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Originally posted by E25280
Could you expand a little bit for those of us ignorant on the subject . . . does Russia consider all ethnic Russians to still be Russian citizens? Even if those of Russian decent were born in what is now an independent country? Or just former "Soviet" citizens?
Many of the estonian russians have Russian passports.
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Originally posted by mora
Police stabbed the russian multiple times to death? I don't think it would happen even in Russia.
Indeed:
Russian channels show victims including teenagers and women, sometimes a reporter running right after the police line, screaming that this riot-police prefers to catch kids and women, as if Estonian "rubbish" doesn't understand Russian... Here in MSK this reported will get his microphone kicked into his teeth immediately, most of our riot-police spent some time in Chechnya, and they know their enemy"
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Maybe Boroda and other Russians think that the riot police methods are the same as theirs... That would explain their view of the events.
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Originally posted by E25280
Could you expand a little bit for those of us ignorant on the subject . . . does Russia consider all ethnic Russians to still be Russian citizens? Even if those of Russian decent were born in what is now an independent country? Or just former "Soviet" citizens?
In Estonia they have about 1.5M people. Out of them 140,000 are "aliens", people with no citizenship, without voting rights and so on. About 100,000 are citizens of Russian Federation, with a local version of a "green card". A guy killed by polizei belonged to that kind.
Total number of the Russian-speaking population (Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Jews etc) there is anout 500,000, or one third of the population.
Originally posted by E25280
As for the second part, I perfectly understand that from your perspective the Soviet forces were "Liberators." But since Estonia was temporarily an independent country after World War One, and were subjected to Soviet invasion and occupation in 1939, they apparently have a different perspective.
In 1940 Estonia was allowed to join the USSR with all possible democratic procedures. It's a fact. There was technically no "invasion". They chose their way themselves.
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Originally posted by mora
"Uprising" :rofl
If the looting and vandalism would take place in Moscow you would be calling it terrorism.
Police stabbed the russian multiple times to death? I don't think it would happen even in Russia.
(http://pics.livejournal.com/kaire_tallinn/pic/0002z6ar/s320x240)
This guy was handcuffed to a lamp-post by polizeis, then he died OTW to the hospital.
I don't think I should post more pics of a dieing man here.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
And the russian was killed by another russian using knife. So how its Estonias fault?
I agree this thing could have been handled differently from the start. Now we have just to see it through.
Good. That's exactly what I meant asking for a media-coverage picture.
Thanks, guys.
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Originally posted by Boroda
dealing with the remnants of the Liberators as with dogs.
Liberators?
:lol
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Originally posted by Fishu
That's just great... everyone who doesn't please the russians are nazis.
Estonians do have a pretty good grasp of what the nazism means, but they do also know even better what kind of butchers the commies were. Over 200 000 estonians were forced to move elsewhere and thousands were killed, while hundreds of thousands people were moved to Estonia from different parts of the Soviet Union.
Communist russia itself has caused the problem by using the ancient divide & conquer tactic. Estonians are now taking back the control of their own country and they have the right to remove the symbols of the former oppressors. The russian minority should integrate into the estonian society and stay reasonable.
200,000 Estonians forced to move elsewhere?!
My friend, there are still less then 1M Estonians there. 200,000 probably moved outside for better job/carreer opportunities. Remember how mane Poles and Finns got highest ranks in the Empire? Same thing about USSR. More to say, we had QUOTES for national minorities everywhere, leaving Russians the only opressed nationality in the Union. Look, I passed the Uni exams but the guys from Moldavia, Estonia and other republics didn't compete with me, they just got their places according to the quotes.
The total number of "purged" Estonians is less then 9000 IIRC, mostly people who collaborated with nazis and partisans.
Why don't you make 12% of Swedes "integrate" into Finnish society? They have their own language respected, and they don't have "alien" grey-coloured passports, or do they? Estonia = fascist country that openly praises nazis and builds monuments to SS Legion "warriors"...
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Thanks for the explanations about the Russian citizen. I think I get it.
Originally posted by Boroda
In 1940 Estonia was allowed to join the USSR with all possible democratic procedures. It's a fact. There was technically no "invasion". They chose their way themselves.
Thought you might be interested in how this "fact" is portrayed outside of Russia.
Following the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939, the Soviet Army entered eastern Poland as well as military bases in the Baltic states which were granted after USSR had threatened the three countries with military invasion. In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the whole territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" USSR in August 1940 and were annexed into it as the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR, and the Lithuanian SSR.
From this, no, it doesn't sound like they chose their own way, rather had their way chosen for them.
"Facts" are unfortunately subject to bias depending on who is stating it. This version of the "facts" was taken from a Wikipedia article (and therefore already subject to alternate interpretations), but pretty much follows everything I have ever heard/read about the occupation of the Baltic States.
Honestly not trying to fight with you, but this seems to be a good example of "history bias" just as the previous are examples of "media bias." The version of history you were taught isn't what most others believe -- and clearly the Estonians do not believe it either.
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Are the "russians" estonian citizens or russian citizens?
Didn't russian police just beat the **** out of scores of peacefull demonstrators in moscow and st petersburg a couple of weeks ago?
Remember russian military invaded estonia as recently as 1991.
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Originally posted by E25280
Thought you might be interested in how this "fact" is portrayed outside of Russia.
From this, no, it doesn't sound like they chose their own way, rather had their way chosen for them.
"Facts" are unfortunately subject to bias depending on who is stating it. This version of the "facts" was taken from a Wikipedia article (and therefore already subject to alternate interpretations), but pretty much follows everything I have ever heard/read about the occupation of the Baltic States.
Honestly not trying to fight with you, but this seems to be a good example of "history bias" just as the previous are examples of "media bias." The version of history you were taught isn't what most others believe -- and clearly the Estonians do not believe it either.
Well, Wikipedia as a source for "historical information" - don't make me laugh please. Pro-Soviet govts in Pribaltika were indeed democratically elected, and were much more legitimate then current puppets in Iraq or Afghanistan. In Iraq the death count is reaching 1million now, like the whole population of Estonia in 1940... Almost 10% of the whole population, compare it to the 0.1% of "purged" Estonians, including partisans.
I have stated my position many times: when I see two points of view on my country's history, both not contradicting common sence, one - Western, another Soviet - then I definetly choose a Soviet one. Just in case you don't know.
USSR had to get hold on Baltic "states" in 1940. It was obvious that if we don't seize them - then nazis will, and it's about 50km from Estonian border to Leningrad, that had 30% of USSR's industrial production. All the pre-war Soviet politics had one goal: to survive the upcoming War. Fortunately - we survived.
All we want is respect to out dead. Like this, it's the funeral for soldiers in Estonia, made by Russians:
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192021)_2.gif
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192106)_5.gif
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192214)_16.gif
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Originally posted by Boroda
Standard question: how does your media cover this events? I see drastic difference between Russian TV channels and Euronews.
Its been on the news alot here.
Estonians want to remove a memmorial to fallen russian soldiers. Some think its bad, some think its good so there is an uprising among the russian population (12%). That is the way its reported. News agencies dont have "opinions" here as they just report what is going on.
Personally i think the Estonians should not do it.
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Originally posted by Suave
Are the "russians" estonian citizens or russian citizens?
Didn't russian police just beat the **** out of scores of peacefull demonstrators in moscow and st petersburg a couple of weeks ago?
Remember russian military invaded estonia as recently as 1991.
Russian military invaded Estonia in 1991? Then why are this nazi-lovers still there?
US military invaded Southern California in 1993!!! Aaaa!!! :rolleyes:
Peacefull demonstrators were on the unsanctioned march and paralised the whole center of Moscow, a city where 10-15 million people live, like 10 Estonias. Imagine 2.5 thousand idiots blocking half of the NYC, and in Msk it's much worse - we have a radial-circular traffic system (circles were in fact fortress walls), so you can stop everything if you occupy a relatively small traffic hub in the center. In this case I am 100% on the Militia side - regardless to the political views of the protesters. I live here, it's MY city, and I don't want anything like this here.
I have already said that there are 140000 of "aliens", 100000 Russian citizens and 250-300000 Russians with Estonian citizenship in Estonia. 1/3 of the population. In Finland 12% of Swedes have their own language and are not opressed in civilian rights. Swedes occupied Finland for hundreeds of years, but - who cares?...
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I have stated my position many times: when I see two points of view on my country's history, both not contradicting common sence, one - Western, another Soviet - then I definetly choose a Soviet one. Just in case you don't know.
Sometimes our governments lie to us Boroda.....mine AND yours.....
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I corrected links to images in a post above, with Russian funeral in Estonia, and I need to say that pictures were taken today, on April, 28th, while nazionalists demolish military graves and monuments...
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Estonia is finally booting the oppressing symbols of it's past, good for them.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Sometimes our governments lie to us Boroda.....mine AND yours.....
I discovered it many years ago, it's no surprise.
The problem is that here in USSR we had many Western sources availible, printed in millions of copies, why you guys seem to rely on TV mostly. :(
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Right, they are estonians who used to be russians, but they chose to become estonians. Therefor it is none of russia's business, just like russian police beating down russians isn't any of estonia's business.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Estonia is finally booting the oppressing symbols of it's past, good for them.
This "opressing symbols" saved the whole Europe from nazism. Mind it please.
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Originally posted by Suave
Right, they are estonians who used to be russians, but they chose to become estonians. Therefor it is none of russia's business, just like russian police beating down russians isn't any of estonia's business.
Again: polizei killed a Russian citizen living in Estonia legally.
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Originally posted by Boroda
This "opressing symbols" saved the whole Europe from nazism. Mind it please.
yeah ,out of the frying pan into the fire
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Originally posted by Boroda
Again: polizei killed a Russian citizen living in Estonia legally.
Oh sorry I thought he was stabbed.
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Originally posted by Suave
Oh sorry I thought he was stabbed.
I showed a small picture of that guy handcuffed to the lamp-post, didn't I?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
yeah ,out of the frying pan into the fire
Anyone comparing USSR to nazis is insane.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Anyone comparing USSR to nazis is insane.
commies, nazis. Firing squad or gas chamber, chose your poison
And seeming Estonia is it's own country, maybe it's the russians who should 'mind it'
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Originally posted by Boroda
I passed the Uni exams but the guys from Moldavia, Estonia and other republics didn't compete with me, they just got their places according to the quotes.
In the U.S. we call that "Affirmative Action".
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, Wikipedia as a source for "historical information" - don't make me laugh please.
I could have said the same about your "Soviet sources", but chose not to. I also used it only as an easily found quote, and clearly stated it is consistent with everything else I have ever heard on the subject. I thought the point was to share how similar events are portrayed differently depending on the source. But if you will simply ridicule the source, I guess I missed the point.
Originally posted by Boroda
I have stated my position many times: when I see two points of view on my country's history, both not contradicting common sence, one - Western, another Soviet - then I definetly choose a Soviet one. Just in case you don't know.
I didn't. You choose to believe one state-controlled version of events rather than sources that are subject to independent verification and ridicule by the world if they get it wrong. OK. Not sure I understand that logic, but there it is.
Originally posted by Boroda
USSR had to get hold on Baltic "states" in 1940. It was obvious that if we don't seize them - then nazis will, and it's about 50km from Estonian border to Leningrad, that had 30% of USSR's industrial production. All the pre-war Soviet politics had one goal: to survive the upcoming War. Fortunately - we survived.
To me, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact looks a lot more like an agreement between two dictators to carve up Eastern Europe between them. The material support sent by the Soviets to Nazi Germany also seem to indicate more of cooperative relationship rather than a confrontational one.
But I find it interesting that you will use an argument that you "had to" invade the Baltic States (and I suppose Finland, Poland and Rumania) to defend yourself, yet ridicule the US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq where the "self-defense" reasoning is also used. Perhaps if you look at your skepticism of US intentions in Iraq and Afghanistan, you can see why there is similar skepticism about Soviet actions in East Europe in 1939-1941.
Originally posted by Boroda
All we want is respect to out dead. .
This I can certainly agree with.
I'm going to bow out of this one now. It looks like you (and others) are spoiling for a fight when I have neither the time nor energy to engage in one.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
commies, nazis. Firing squad or gas chamber, chose your poison
I am at the point of behaving really bad here.
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10.
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Originally posted by E25280
I could have said the same about your "Soviet sources", but chose not to. I also used it only as an easily found quote, and clearly stated it is consistent with everything else I have ever heard on the subject. I thought the point was to share how similar events are portrayed differently depending on the source. But if you will simply ridicule the source, I guess I missed the point.
Wikipedia is the most biased pro-Western mixture of propaganda lies, sorry. I lived in USSR and I can see it pretty well that "wikipederasts" cut-and-paste Western Cold-war comic-books.
Originally posted by E25280
I didn't. You choose to believe one state-controlled version of events rather than sources that are subject to independent verification and ridicule by the world if they get it wrong. OK. Not sure I understand that logic, but there it is.
State controlled logic?! I said - we had a huge variety of Western sources published in USSR since mid-50s. Like - can you find an English translation of "WeltKrieg 1939-1945" that is a WWII history written by German generals and published in West Germany in 1955? It was translated in 1957 here and widely availible.
Did you read Zhukov's memoirs? I have read Omar Bradley's "Soldier's Diary" in Russian. I have read Manstein and Guderian in Russian. Interesting, isn't it? Nice hints about "freedom of press" in USSR and the US?
Originally posted by E25280
To me, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact looks a lot more like an agreement between two dictators to carve up Eastern Europe between them. The material support sent by the Soviets to Nazi Germany also seem to indicate more of cooperative relationship rather than a confrontational one.
Material support from USA to nazis was 10 times bigger. Opel was bought by GM in mid-30s, it's just one example. US bombers had regions where they can't drop bombs marked on their maps just because there was "American capital invested". OTOH USSR shipped raw materials to Germany, materials that couldn't be processed by Soviet industry, getting stuff like heavy cruisers and hi-tech machinery in return.
We wanted to survive and our leaders were wise enough. We got a delay in 1939. Read something about Soviet-British-French negotiations in Moscow in August 1939. West just wanted us to do all the job without any support.
Originally posted by E25280
But I find it interesting that you will use an argument that you "had to" invade the Baltic States (and I suppose Finland, Poland and Rumania) to defend yourself, yet ridicule the US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq where the "self-defense" reasoning is also used. Perhaps if you look at your skepticism of US intentions in Iraq and Afghanistan, you can see why there is similar skepticism about Soviet actions in East Europe in 1939-1941.
Look at the map, where is Afghanistan, Iraq and US. I think it's enough. I don't "ridicule" your "efforts", I just want to say that in Iraq a "democratic" govt was installed after the occupation began, while in Baltic "states" democratically elected govts were elected before they joined the USSR.
Originally posted by E25280
I'm going to bow out of this one now. It looks like you (and others) are spoiling for a fight when I have neither the time nor energy to engage in one.
I am also bored of this crap. I probably need to make a website with answers to most common questions, like a blog with links to posts here, instead of typing it again
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Boroda - the EU is a voluntary political union. Unlike the USSR people seem to like the freedom it brings. Unlike the 60 years of 'liberation'.
The more I read about Russian involvement in Eastern European politics, the more I understand why everyone abhors you. This Estonian situation is a symptom of the Soviet disease, not unlike an allergic rash.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Why don't you make 12% of Swedes "integrate" into Finnish society? They have their own language respected, and they don't have "alien" grey-coloured passports, or do they?
Maybe because the "Swedes" did not send Finns to the Siberian gulags...unlike Stalin planned to do in in 1939...
There is a growing Russian speaking minority in Finland, I know many of them. If even a fraction of them would think like you I would be worried..but I think you are just a fruitcake.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Personally i think the Estonians should not do it.
Yeah, it should have been done years ago. Better late than never though.
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i wish some of this was on our news here... think i will pop off a few emails...
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According to our news, the plans of relocating the statue caused constant demonstrations in the Tallinn center. Then one night the demonstrations broke out to a violent rampage full with looting and breaking windows and property.
This is when the original schedule of moving the statue got hastened and the statue was removed. And after that the russian minority has terrorized the area with a violent protest. Most people seem to agree that the statue was just a scape goat for an uprising long waited by the russians.
It is true that many of them have lived as second class citizens in Estonia just like estonians lived in Russia. But they only got treated the same like they treated the others. Nothing stops them from moving back to russia anyway - something that couldn't be said about ex soviet citizens who lived behind the iron curtain.
Berlin wall, anyone?
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All I have seen on the situation is a very brief blurb about the statue removal and some protests. Nothing much else since the first news story. There is darn little news in the States about Europe or Russia.
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Originally posted by Boroda
most of our riot-police spent some time in Chechnya, and they know their enemy.
Chechnian woman, children and the elderly?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Boroda
I asked it to everyone here, the world is getting pretty small now...
Interesting that it's not in the news in the US. We have open confrontation between RF and EU member, with EU acting as usual: that unshaved female reproductive organ Solana, butcher of Yugoslavia says that riots are Russian fault, German Foreign Affairs Minister said Estonians don't understand what nazism means, and so on.
French NATO fighter squad based in Pribaltika made a first flight over Tallin to demonstrate their presence.
Russian foreign ministry threatened severe consequences for the actions of Estonian govt.
Our Parliament leaders called for a diplomatic relations cancellation with Estonia.
Let's hope that it's not only words again. They killed a Russian citizen and they will regret it.
Now you're *****ing and whining when people protest against socialists? Boroda, I hope you never leave. You're a riot (pun fully intended).
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This thread is going downhill fast.
I abandon ship!
so...
IN!
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Some videos of the "uprising":
http://www.iltalehti.fi/nettitvpopup.shtml
(fourth on the left and others above it)
Normal people are peacefully demonstrating and kids are looting and vandalizing. The police aren't treating them with silk gloves, but hardly stabbing anyone. The reporters are roaming freely everywhere.
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Originally posted by mora
Some videos of the "uprising":
http://www.iltalehti.fi/nettitvpopup.shtml
(fourth on the left and others above it)
Normal people are peacefully demonstrating and kids are looting and vandalizing. The police aren't treating them with silk gloves, but hardly stabbing anyone. The reporters are roaming freely everywhere.
For those to whom the page doesnt open automatically, press the first 'tästä' link and then 'katso video' lower right corner of the videos.
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Here's footage on crowds stoning the police and looting a convenience store:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBeKUgFI13s&mode=related&search=
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It's very sad that that man was murdered, but from what I understand from boroda it sounds as if russian media is sensationalizing it as if the man was murdered by police because he was a russian national.
Which also is sad because it means the media in russia is using dubious information for the purpose of stirring malice.
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With all due respect to Boroda and all Russians. They should get the hell out of Estonia. They are not wanted. They were not wanted in 1940 in Lithuania or Lativia or Estonia. They are not wanted now.
If you live in Estonia and want to be Russian then go home. Estonians don't want you anymore than the Finns or Lithuanians or Lativians or any other of the countries conquered or invaded by the Russians for whatever excuse your overlords invented at the time.
Go home to Russia and stay there. Mind your business. You have no right to take over other countries.
I speak as an Irishman whose country was invaded by a foreign power. The British, many years ago. We finally gained freedom in part. Now I like the British. I respect their way of doing things. I like their democracy. But I do not want them ruling my country or any part of it. No disrespect to them but we don't want them telling us what to do.
It's the same with Estonians, part of their country is controlled by Russia. I doubt any Estonian wants the Russians to control any part of their country. They put up with it because Russia is powerful and and antagonising them is very dangerous indeed. Russia want to hold onto part of Estonia because it artificially populated with Russians. Estonians naturally don't like this, surprise, surpise!
The problem with Russia and many powerful nations is that they believe that conquest gives them the right to dictate to other nations what to do. They construct their lie that small nations want to be conquered by big nations. They believe that conquest gives them the right, indeed the moral justification for their actions.
Quite simply the Russians have no right to be in Estonia. They should go home and leave the Estonians alone to run all their own country as they see fit.
Boroda, there is noting you can say to justify the Russian presence in Estonia.
I speak as someone who has considerable admiration for Russian culture.
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Originally posted by Boroda
250-300000 Russians with Estonian citizenship in Estonia.B]
If they are estonian citizens then they aren't russians.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
With all due respect to Boroda and all Russians. They should get the hell out of Estonia. They are not wanted. They were not wanted in 1940 in Lithuania or Lativia or Estonia. They are not wanted now.
If you live in Estonia and want to be Russian then go home. Estonians don't want you anymore than the Finns or Lithuanians or Lativians or any other of the countries conquered or invaded by the Russians for whatever excuse your overlords invented at the time.
Go home to Russia and stay there. Mind your business. You have no right to take over other countries.
I speak as an Irishman whose country was invaded by a foreign power. The British, many years ago. We finally gained freedom in part. Now I like the British. I respect their way of doing things. I like their democracy. But I do not want them ruling my country or any part of it. No disrespect to them but we don't want them telling us what to do.
It's the same with Estonians, part of their country is controlled by Russia. I doubt any Estonian wants the Russians to control any part of their country. They put up with it because Russia is powerful and and antagonising them is very dangerous indeed. Russia want to hold onto part of Estonia because it artificially populated with Russians. Estonians naturally don't like this, surprise, surpise!
The problem with Russia and many powerful nations is that they believe that conquest gives them the right to dictate to other nations what to do. They construct their lie that small nations want to be conquered by big nations. They believe that conquest gives them the right, indeed the moral justification for their actions.
Quite simply the Russians have no right to be in Estonia. They should go home and leave the Estonians alone to run all their own country as they see fit.
Boroda, there is noting you can say to justify the Russian presence in Estonia.
I speak as someone who has considerable admiration for Russian culture.
Perfect post.
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Originally posted by TimRas
Maybe because the "Swedes" did not send Finns to the Siberian gulags...unlike Stalin planned to do in in 1939...
Swedes treated you guys like animals for 300 years.
Russians gave you independence.
Still 12% of Swedes have all the rights.
Russians = untermenschen? I have heard it somewhere before. I also remember how it ended.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
According to our news, the plans of relocating the statue caused constant demonstrations in the Tallinn center. Then one night the demonstrations broke out to a violent rampage full with looting and breaking windows and property.
Instead of giving Soviet warriors their honors - they secretly dug out their remnants and cut the Bronze Soldier apart at night.
Night Watch didn't secure the Monument - how do you expect worried unarmed people to oppose a police force?!?
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
This is when the original schedule of moving the statue got hastened and the statue was removed. And after that the russian minority has terrorized the area with a violent protest. Most people seem to agree that the statue was just a scape goat for an uprising long waited by the russians.
Russian "minority"?! Every third in Estonia is an ethnic Russian.
You used the same word as I did: an Uprising.
It's not just a "riot".
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
It is true that many of them have lived as second class citizens in Estonia just like estonians lived in Russia. But they only got treated the same like they treated the others. Nothing stops them from moving back to russia anyway - something that couldn't be said about ex soviet citizens who lived behind the iron curtain.
Estonians living in Russia - second class citizens?! Man, 140000 of non-Estonians are ALIENS deprived of basic rights there!
And don;t tel me about being a Soviet citizen from behind an iron curtain (that was in fact raised by the West and kept 15 years after USSR was gone)
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Berlin wall, anyone?
Not me.
I am getting really ugly. Sorry. Going to get some more and back in 20min.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
With all due respect to Boroda and all Russians. They should get the hell out of Estonia. They are not wanted. They were not wanted in 1940 in Lithuania or Lativia or Estonia. They are not wanted now. .
"You, Irish, Jewish, Italians, etc are not wanted in the US now." Does it sound OK for you?
In 1940 it was a conscious decision of their democratically elected governments.
Finns disagreed. It was a foolish decision, because they lost 100000 men and gave up more then USSR originally wanted, but they didn't agree - and didn't agree to join the USSR.
Russians taught Estonians to piss standing. Russians issued the first Estonian vocabulary in 1860s. Russians gave them independance in 1918 and 1991. Russians saved them from German genocide centuries ago. USSR have built all their industry, gave jobs to their population, educated them (in 1940 most of them were illiterate), gave them carreer opportunities with national quotes I mentioned above, spent millions of hard-earned rubles on their literature and theater and other stuff. I still have some books written by Estonian authors on my shelf, about Antarctic expeditions, where they participated together with other Soviet people.
And now they tamper OUR graves that are protected by international Conventions. Nazis. They praise their SS Legion "veterans", and build monuments to SS hangmen.
1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
fuuuuf
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Originally posted by Suave
It's very sad that that man was murdered, but from what I understand from boroda it sounds as if russian media is sensationalizing it as if the man was murdered by police because he was a russian national.
Which also is sad because it means the media in russia is using dubious information for the purpose of stirring malice.
He wasn't murdered because he was a Russian citizen.
He was an Estonian resident, but a Russian Federation's citizen.
I have heard it in the news about 18 hours ago. So far Russian foreign ministry simply wants explanations from Estonian side.
I hope they take all possible measures.
I also think that our Defense ministry should take appropriate measures. We are all fed up.
They violate our graves, they kill our people - I think we had enough of this. Seriously. We can easily reenact what they want to revise. And I am sure that NATO or EU won't do anything to protect their nazi regime.
It's my own personal opinion, but I see enough people here sharing this point of view.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Quite simply the Russians have no right to be in Estonia. They should go home and leave the Estonians alone to run all their own country as they see fit.
Boroda, there is noting you can say to justify the Russian presence in Estonia.
I speak as someone who has considerable admiration for Russian culture.
Are you out of your mind, mate?
Try to get sober and then re-read what you posted here. I know, Saturday is a sacred day for drinking, and you Irish guys drink as good as we do (BTW better then Finns), but I had a working Saturday, we have 3 days off for May Day.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Perfect post.
Yeah.
Look at all the losers and the mad eyed gazers
Look at all the looneys and the sad eyed failures
They're giving up living 'cos they just don't care
So take a good look around
The misfits are everywhere
La la la la la la
You're a misfit
This guys in Revel don;t want to be misfits. They stand up and fight nazis. For your good.
This night polizei shoot protesters right in the face, then finish them with rubber sticks. Prisons are overloaded, they carry bodies of the wounded protesters into hangers in Tallin (or should I say Revel again?) port.
surely we see the true face of Western so-called "democracy".
Something has to be done. I suppose - NATO Albanian zondercommando to "pacify" bloody Russian unermenschen.
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damm , just bomb crap out of them as we usually do, and stop whining :noid :t :t
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Originally posted by ramzey
damm , just bomb crap out of them as we usually do, and stop whining :noid :t :t
It's not our method. Every third there is a Russian.
We'll better make them crawl on their knees again begging to join Russian Federation. And then spend money on them... :(
But I doubt that our occupational regime will ever do anything to stop this nazis :(
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Pavel its not those time when you could take them over in the name of communistic values and then terminate them in syberia camps.
Bombing is more effective!
Block their ports, block their economics and they will come and beg you on their knees to forgive them.
If thats don't work, send bombers and solve problem.
I don't understand nations who deny they own history (as my own) and take down evidences of past time. They cant change something whats happen years ago.
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Originally posted by ramzey
Pavel its not those time when you could take them over in the name of communistic values and then terminate them in syberia camps.
Bombing is more effective!
Block their ports, block their economics and they will come and beg you on their knees to forgive them.
If thats don't work, send bombers and solve problem.
I don't understand nations who deny they own history (as my own) and take down evidences of past time. They cant change something whats happen years ago.
Well, it's exactly what I mean...
Look, the worst things about them is that they are slaves. Genetically. They traded old Master for a new one, and now they try to behave as the new Master supposes them to. They already forgot how their new Master owned them until XVIII century, and how it treated them.
And we have good artillery, no use sending bombers.
Do you remember that NATO memorandum? F-16 fighters can't go supersonic over Estonia. The country is just too small for them to accelerate.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look, the worst things about them is that they are slaves. Genetically.
DOH! Here it comes! :D
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thats what im saying
when iran was taken over by muslims , we let Israel bomb them, its work fine.
After Lebanon terrorism act on our troops we bomb them, works well. We let Israel bomb them , works even better
When Saddam rise his head after war with iran, we bomb crap out of him, works well.
Until some brilliant brainiaks decide to invade Iraq.
Bombers solve problems , ground war not
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I expect some explanations.
I suppose I deserve it.
The question is quite serious, so if we are not allowed to discuss neonazism - then I think there's something rotten....
I hope it's not a moderatorial policy so I feel I'm free to discuss it. Sorry.
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I was looking for that thread...:noid
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As for the last night - Estonian polizei keeps shooting peacefull protesters from 12-gauges with rubber bullets, and stacking severely wounded people in hangers near Tallin port. Witnesses report more people killed by this nazis.
Funny - I wonder how our "beloved Party and Government" will react. I bet - nothing more then shaking air when they have to break the neck of this nazi snake.
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The problem here isn't actual Nazis, but what you believe to be nazis, boroda. Pretty much anything to the right of your viewpoint (far far far left) would constitute Nazis in your mind. The problem is that they aren't nazis, but just people who are angry at 50 years at repression.
The other problem is you throwing the term "Nazi" around to gain support for what you perceive as a wrong doing.
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Originally posted by Boroda
As for the last night - Estonian polizei keeps shooting peacefull protesters from 12-gauges with rubber bullets, and stacking severely wounded people in hangers near Tallin port. Witnesses report more people killed by this nazis.
I actually thought that you might have beeen trolling earlier... But when you start another thread about it you must be serious.
The following is not a personal attack.
You obviously need to get a grip of you life and your mental health. Lay off the booze for starters and seek psychiatric help.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The problem here isn't actual Nazis, but what you believe to be nazis, boroda. Pretty much anything to the right of your viewpoint (far far far left) would constitute Nazis in your mind. The problem is that they aren't nazis, but just people who are angry at 50 years at repression.
The other problem is you throwing the term "Nazi" around to gain support for what you perceive as a wrong doing.
you are mistaken
There is some changes in estern europe lately. Som right wing parties rise to power and to keep their presence in gov. Ruling parties sign devils deal with ultra right wing nationalists. They admire nazi values, nationalism and fascism.
They are tolerated as part of government cuz they give votes, witch let other less radical wings keep majorities in congress and ruling countries.
They have media, they have slots in government. They need enemy to fight with.
They start "clean up" all gov agencies, from people who have any past connected to old governments, any communistic past. No matter is that commie security forces or scout organization.
They getting close same methods as their oppressors, and their grandfathers.
And thats not good, right now they fight with ashes of those who died fighting nazies. Regular peoples who fought for good coses.
Those monuments are symbol of fight against nazies, as well as remind about communists times.
Estonia as only country in the world admire SS veterans, let them march and show yourself as heroes. All of those legal and under umbrella of their gov.
How would you feel is someone try to remove and destroy all monuments and graves of confederate soldiers?
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Originally posted by ramzey
Estonia as only country in the world admire SS veterans, let them march and show yourself as heroes. All of those legal and under umbrella of their gov.
So there shouldn't be a freedom of expression? Can't the Illinois nazis march in the US anymore? Quite astonishing to hear this from a who person who has illegally immigrated to the USA from another side of the world. Perhaps you don't understand the difference between an individual and the state, again quite astonishing.
An old news link to this subject.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2148732.stm
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The other problem is you throwing the term "Nazi" around to gain support for what you perceive as a wrong doing.
It's ironic that the real neonazis are rampant in Russia.
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Originally posted by ramzey
Estonia as only country in the world admire SS veterans, let them march and show yourself as heroes. All of those legal and under umbrella of their gov.
Do not disrespect the soldiers of other countries based on your own assumptions.
Over here in Finland we had a few years ago a honour guard during a Waffen-SS veteran meeting at a cemetary honouring our fallen men of the Waffen-SS.
Who, by the way, did nothing wrong in the war and should not be dishonoured. They fought against the commies like any other finn, but in a different uniform and a frontline. They explicitly wished to fight the commies rather than the western allies.
I don't know much about the estonian SS men, but believe you're talking of the Waffen-SS, which is the armed wing of the SS, fightning at the frontline. Several thousands of estonians fought in german uniform against the commies, who they feared more than the nazis (who weren't nice to the estonians either). It's silly to claim that the estonians would be honouring the nazis, who also were an oppressor.
I see nothing bad in honouring the men who sacrificed their lives to fight for their country, certainly not if they fought with honour.
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Originally posted by mora
It's ironic that the real neonazis are rampant in Russia.
Yes and I am one of the Evil Russian Skinhead fOscYsts. LOL.
Get real, mate. Your http://www.prokarelia.net, eh??
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Originally posted by Boroda
Get real, mate. Your http://www.prokarelia.net, eh??
Do they promote racism, war or totalitarism? I don't think so. They're a small bunch of people. So who cares? Even the polls have showed that the majority of finns doesn't really care for the issue of Karelia.
In the mean time Russia is falling back into government controlled media and a single party system by dropping out the opposition. Not to forget their aggressive approach to issues like a simple statue made of a stone or metal.
Oh yeah... have they even found any of the supposedly buried red star veterans around the statue? Which was one of your great concerns.
The funniest thing is that you would have no problem with the russian riot-police kicking microphone into a reporters throat during riot, but you found it worth to complain how the estonian police has arrested harmful rioters by force. Which of the two mentalities is closer to the nazis?
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Bottom line is it's their country, they don't like the statue.
The problem with Mr. Boroda is he sees this statue as something the Estonians do not. Boroda sees it as a symbol of sacrifice against the oppressive nazis, the Estonians see it as a symbol of years of commie oppression.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Yes and I am one of the Evil Russian Skinhead fOscYsts. LOL.
Get real, mate. Your http://www.prokarelia.net, eh??
It's been all over the world media in the recent years. What an earth does it have to do with prokarelia? What's your problem with them anyway, are they "nazi" too?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by mora
I actually thought that you might have beeen trolling earlier... But when you start another thread about it you must be serious.
The following is not a personal attack.
You obviously need to get a grip of you life and your mental health. Lay off the booze for starters and seek psychiatric help.
For all we know their media can have gone back to the old days and distorted everything posted for political purposes. Russian word for information is propaganda I believe. :cool:
Funny how the dozens of eyewitness reports from Estonia that are posted to Youtube and news agencies around the world fail to show any of the activity Boroda is describing. There's just looting houligans attacking the police and Estoanian nationals with stones and batons and getting arrested for violently resisting the police force. Just yesterday I saw a mobile phone video of a russian speaking gang attacking an innocent bystander and kicking him to the ground. Another video portrayed a Finnish convenient store being looted by the young anarchists.
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Whatever side anyone has fought for, their memmorials and graves should be respected.
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OK.
We'll remember it. We don't leave our dead like that.
Don't you understand that 1/3 of Estonian population, or more - thousands on ethnic Estonians fought on Red side- is enraged.
Tune to Russian TV and you'll see a different picture. Both sides are biased - but Estonian polizeis killing Russian citizens is a little too much for us to tolerate.
Imagine if Russians excavate Finnish or American military cemetary - what will be your reaction?
I am bored of talking to people deaf from propaganda. We just want our dead to be left alone. When you guys insist that a Russian guy was stabbed - look at the pictures I posted... Oh sorry someone deleted 3 pages of my posts here, OK. So I guess it's more serious.
Someone definetly wants to see a re-enaction.
I wonder when Solana and other EU officials will admit that they are inheritors of the nazis. Oh, in fact they already did it. Remember, Europe was "united" two times before, and both times Russians had to deal with first Napoleon and then Hitler. Time for a third one?....
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Get real, mate. Your http://www.prokarelia.net, eh??
Broda sounds more like a Brit stuck in Canada...
Pffft..... swims away.
Mac
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Whatever side anyone has fought for, their memmorials and graves should be respected.
It's not an official grave, it's just hearsay. That's why they are doing an excavation.
You are making it sound like they are bulldozing a cemetary.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Broda sounds more like a Brit stuck in Canada...
Pffft..... swims away.
Mac
Sorry I spent 2 months in Australia, and people I met there usually thought I am a Canadian.
About prokarelia: at least Russian Federation respects international borders that were (in Europe) declared finally drawn in 1975 by the Helsinki Declaration. While Finns who genocided non-Finnish population in Soviet Karelia in 1941-44 want a "revenge". Poor poor Finns. I see the same attitude from Estonian cops. This people call themselves "Europeans"... Human rights my ass. Handcuffing a dieing man to a lamp post... Good they didn't cut his ears off. Or maybe they did?... Good traditional trophy?
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Originally posted by mora
It's not an official grave, it's just hearsay. That's why they are doing an excavation.
You are making it sound like they are bulldozing a cemetary.
I say that memmorials and graves should be respected and you think i make it sound like that?:confused:
By that standard you make it sound like graves and memmorials should be disrespected in general.
I was making a general statement. I mean that both "friendly", nazi, commie and and all other graves in general should be left alone and respected for what they are.
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Originally posted by mora
It's not an official grave, it's just hearsay. That's why they are doing an excavation.
You are making it sound like they are bulldozing a cemetary.
Yes it is an official military memorial cemetary. And they do bulldoze it. I thought you guys understand it.
That's why we are all so mad about it.
Their prime-minister said that people buried there are marauders and drunk looters. But it's an official Soviet soldiers grave.After such words I hope noone will ever shake his bloody hand. Dancing on the bones of the people who lost their lives for their silly existence.
And the sculpture of the Bronze Soldier was made from an Estonian Red Army warrior as a model. They prefer to install monuments to SS legioners now.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I say that memmorials and graves should be respected and you think i make it sound like that?:confused:
By that standard you make it sound like graves and memmorials should be disrespected in general.
I was making a general statement. I mean that both "friendly", nazi, commie and and all other graves in general should be left alone and respected for what they are.
We have German graves well-cared for, like in Borodino field, together with French ones. People finding bodies of German soldiers here treat them with the same respect as Soviet warriors.
Some morally handicapped people simply don't understand such things.
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The EU is not a Nazi conglomerate.
Russia is running scared in the face of the EU. Unlike the USSR, its members want to be part of it, and more and more former Soviet republics want membership.
After 50 years of benevolent brotherhood as part of the USSR Russia is detested throughout Eastern Europe. I wonder why that is?
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By the way Napoleon wasn't defeated by Russia. A little known battle in1805 defeated him at sea and allowed Britain to squeeze him on land.
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Originally posted by Dowding
By the way Napoleon wasn't defeated by Russia. A little known battle in1805 defeated him at sea and allowed Britain to squeeze him on land.
Just go read something about who's troops marched in Paris in 1814.
Funny to hear about Soviet Empire from a Brit. LOL. Go on, teach us.
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Duke of Wellington and Nelson two great tacticians and leaders of men.
Boroda stop chewing peoples heads off with your opinion. Personally I respect Russia for the men and materials that died fighting the onslaught of Nazi Germany. This was 66 years ago now.
I would hope we get over international differences in this modern age but its same stupid politicians with self serving interests that always muddy the waters on BOTH sides.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry I spent 2 months in Australia, and people I met there usually thought I am a Canadian.
Sorry Bud but it doesn't Glean with me... Yeah Right.
Aussies can recognize a Brit or Canadian accent... So yer "Mate" and "Eh" doesn't wash.
Hate to bust you out but yer a fool.
You're not a Russian.
So much for your Drama times.
Mac
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Do they not teach about The Battle of Trafalgar (probably THE most significant naval battle in the history of the world) in Russia?
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< Klurig Sparkvetare
:p
Ist das vu? Hur mar ni..
Mac
Someday I'll be a Pope...
Or a Priest pulling a Father Nelson on a Chior Boy...
Wrong!!! Soooo Wrong!
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Originally posted by Boroda
We'll remember it. We don't leave our dead like that.
Imagine if Russians excavate Finnish or American military cemetary - what will be your reaction?
If there are any dead to begin with. So far there's been nothing but hearsay.
There's nothing bad with moving the dead to an another area when there's a good reason for it. Cemeteries have been moved in the past and will be moved in the future. Some will be simply forgotten and found again from under a construction yard.
Don't you understand that 1/3 of Estonian population, or more - thousands on ethnic Estonians fought on Red side- is enraged.
You know for a fact that each and every estonian russian is enraged? Of those enraged I've only seen young russians looting stores and beating up people in Tallinn - That's what they'd do at any given chance regardless of the reason, just as long as it's considered to be a good excuse. Some of the young people are like that, up to make trouble with an excuse.
Both sides are biased - but Estonian polizeis killing Russian citizens is a little too much for us to tolerate.
Right... right... and where'd you got this information? Only one person has been confirmed dead and he was stabbed to death. As far as I know, knife isn't a stantard issue for Estonian police.
I am bored of talking to people deaf from propaganda.
Argumentum ad hominem;
People doesn't agree with you -> They must be blinded by propaganda.
When you guys insist that a Russian guy was stabbed - look at the pictures I posted... Oh sorry someone deleted 3 pages of my posts here, OK. So I guess it's more serious.
You can post the links again.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Just go read something about who's troops marched in Paris in 1814.
Funny to hear about Soviet Empire from a Brit. LOL. Go on, teach us.
I believe 1805 pre-dates 1814.
In addition to Trafalgar, the capture of French interests in the Carribean, Mauritius and Réunion in the Indian Ocean from 1808 - 1810 meant Britain could focus on kicking Buonaparte out of Spain and push into France.
Where were the Russians at Waterloo?
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Originally posted by WMLute
Do they not teach about The Battle of Trafalgar (probably THE most significant naval battle in the history of the world) in Russia?
Trafalgar history is in school program of 9 or 10 grade.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Why don't you make 12% of Swedes "integrate" into Finnish society? They have their own language respected, and they don't have "alien" grey-coloured passports, or do they?
About 5% nowadays. There was something around 20% in 1918. Swedish language isn't really that respected in Finland, because it's status in Finland is way over the actual importance and the youth has came to realise this.
So yeah, they've been slowly integrating. Although, some swedish organizations put up a stiff resistance for a lost cause to keep up the wrongfully high status of the swedes in Finland and are often openly racist towards the finnish speaking population.
Hopefully they will never take an example of Finland in Estonia, how we have granted more and more privileges for the demising swedish minority. Our method would only further serve to alienate the two sides from each others.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I believe 1805 pre-dates 1814.
In addition to Trafalgar, the capture of French interests in the Carribean, Mauritius and Réunion in the Indian Ocean from 1808 - 1810 meant Britain could focus on kicking Buonaparte out of Spain and push into France.
Where were the Russians at Waterloo?
And what about the war of 1812? Or this is not a part of your school program?
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Why is there no histeria and rioting when russia exumes wwII veterans from a memorial?
Maybe it's because the russian media doesn't sensationalize it as much? Why is that?
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What of it? Are you somehow claiming a Russian influence in that conflict that has relevance to the supposed defeat of Buonaparte by Russia?
The War of 1812 was an inconvenient sideshow that had little bearing on the European theatre. It ended in stalemate with neither side achieving its objectives.
Still I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand.
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Originally posted by Suave
Why is there no histeria and rioting when russia exumes wwII veterans from a memorial?
Maybe it's because the russian media doesn't sensationalize it as much? Why is that?
Maybe because there wasn't such stories?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Tune to Russian TV and you'll see a different picture. Both sides are biased - but Estonian polizeis killing Russian citizens is a little too much for us to tolerate.
Imagine if Russians excavate Finnish or American military cemetary - what will be your reaction?
Umm.. Didn't you guys already do that in Karelia where you used the gravestones for bridge building?
Originally posted by Boroda
I am bored of talking to people deaf from propaganda. We just want our dead to be left alone. When you guys insist that a Russian guy was stabbed - look at the pictures I posted... Oh sorry someone deleted 3 pages of my posts here, OK. So I guess it's more serious.
Someone definetly wants to see a re-enaction.
I wonder when Solana and other EU officials will admit that they are inheritors of the nazis. Oh, in fact they already did it. Remember, Europe was "united" two times before, and both times Russians had to deal with first Napoleon and then Hitler. Time for a third one?.... [/B]
First of all, mobile phone videos posted by private persons on Youtube can't be propaganda. They're eye witness reports. Somehow they all fail to portray the picture you're giving. That leads us to why your media is trying to paint a false picture of the happenings in Estonia. Is your government looking for another excuse to start war and conquering other countries? For decades you have been the scourge of the region bullying and harassing smaller countries - and it never stops it seems. They're ramping up neonationalism in Russia to turn your eyes away from the internal problems, raging corruption and Putin slowly but surely steadying his dictatorship in the country.
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the world does owe soviet russia a huge debt for proving that extreme socialism is not only unworkable but fundamentally evil.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
the world does owe soviet russia a huge debt for proving that extreme socialism is not only unworkable but fundamentally evil.
lazs
Few things are more true. Unfortunately it's a lesson many refuse to learn.
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Originally posted by lazs2
the world does owe soviet russia a huge debt for proving that extreme socialism is not only unworkable but fundamentally evil.
lazs
Yeah, but what about the NFL?
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what is the NFL?
lazs
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Originally posted by Estel
Maybe because there wasn't such stories?
Exactly.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2007/04/28/014.html
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Originally posted by Suave
Exactly.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2007/04/28/014.html
it's fake.
in first. that burying was since war and there never was a proper monument.
in second. now there is new, specially built monument you can see it here: http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Roman_alymov/(070428120046)_Monument_Khimki.jpg
before that, that fighters were buryed near the factory perimter. now they obtained their proper place. in center of square. works are not complete yet, but on Victory Day it will be reafdy.
and you mother****ers will never understand what does it mean for us. you can only debate about things you don't understand/
yea i'm drunk. ****. you don't understand, how far are you
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Then obviously it's not fake.
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Originally posted by Estel
and you mother****ers will never understand what does it mean for us. you can only debate about things you don't understand/
And some will refuse to understand how the Estonians feel
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Originally posted by Sixpence
And some will refuse to understand how the Estonians feel
Well it's obvious that russians never honored the free will of others. Not now or in the past. Yay totaliarism like totally rules, dude!
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Whole situation is nothing more then Putin testing how unified EU is.
I hope EU quickly sends as many troops to Estonia as possible. If russian citizens are indeed treated so badly there, border isn't far off, you can't go supersonic after all..
Paradize of mother russia is just off 100 km to the east. Go on. Democratic nation of freedom and citizen rights is waiting for them. What the hell are they doing in the Nazi nation like estonia ?
And since we are rewriting history, do remember fellows that World War 2 did not start on 1.9.1939. Only thing that happend on that day is democratically elected polish goverment decided to give up half of the country to Nazi germany, and on 17th it gave the other half to USSR. Shortly thereafter it ordered some of the brightest citizens to march to Katyñ and shoot themselves in the biggest mass sucicide in the world..
Pawe³, you're way off the rocker my friend.
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My sister-in law is Latvian, and my brothers been there a few times, and its true that more than a significant majority of Latvians truly hate the communist russians, whereas Latvia does not deny its connections with the wartime germans, the Latvian paramiltaries and waffen SS...
What does it say about a people when you'd prefer the baltic SS to the soviets?
Tronsky
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yep... you have to watch out or england may send the worlds 28th largest army after you.
eurobarbarians always starting wars over nothing that end up getting the whole world involved.
lazs
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Sorta like Iraq ;)
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Originally posted by -tronski-
What does it say about a people when you'd prefer the baltic SS to the soviets?
I don't know what it says about the people, but it says volumes about the Soviets.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Instead of giving Soviet warriors their honors - they secretly dug out their remnants and cut the Bronze Soldier apart at night.
Except the remnants of the soldiers are still there, untouched. The status hasn't been cut apart. The remnants and the statue will be presented in the military graveyard on May 8th.
Edit: they've now started the dig and found today the expected 12 coffins.
As an interesting sidenote, Russian parlament demanded that Estonia should let Russian politicians to witness the dig, Russian foreign ministry forbade the diplomats at Estonia to participate.
Push, pull, push, pull...
Does Russia have elections coming? This provoked crisis is a good way to divert interest from domestic matters...
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Originally posted by Grendel
Except the remnants of the soldiers are still there, untouched. The status hasn't been cut apart. The remnants and the statue will be presented in the military graveyard on May 8th.
It's obvious that the russkies are once again looking for excuses to create trouble. Wtf is wrong with those people. :(
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Wtf is wrong with those people. :(
vodka+inferiority complex+moderately competent armaments industry=trouble
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
It's obvious that the russkies are once again looking for excuses to create trouble. Wtf is wrong with those people. :(
Wondering that myself, at this same time they are doing the same thing in russia with russian wwII hero remains. But in Estonia they're acting like muslims who've seen a drawing of muhamed.
I think the media in russia is a big part of the problem, as I understand it, some of the news channels there are so ridiculously biased that they're are considered LOL funny by average russians.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Get real, mate. Your http://www.prokarelia.net, eh??
Prokarelia is LOL in here. It's one man and his crusade. He is known loonie and that ain't the only "project" of his. You should see the crap he posts daily in Finnish newsgroups about kazillion different topics. He is mostly ignored, generally just laughed at.
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The statue is now up in its new location.
Did you know that the model for the statue was a twice olympic gold medalist in wrestling, Kristjan Palusalu (1908-1997). He was a huge man.
During the war this estonian was fighting on the soviet side, but defected at the Finnish front... ran over the lines with his friend shouting "Don't shoot, don't shoot, we are Estonian boys!". He was taken to work in a military hospital. After the war he was handed over to Soviet Union resulting a trip to Siberia. He got freed during Nikita Hrustsov's era/term (1955-1964).. exact year not mentioned.
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Originally posted by BlauK
The statue is now up in its new location.
Did you know that the model for the statue was a twice olympic gold medalist in wrestling, Kristjan Palusalu (1908-1997). He was a huge man.
During the war this estonian was fighting on the soviet side, but defected at the Finnish front... ran over the lines with his friend shouting "Don't shoot, don't shoot, we are Estonian boys!". He was taken to work in a military hospital. After the war he was handed over to Soviet Union resulting a trip to Siberia. He got freed during Nikita Hrustsov's era/term (1955-1964).. exact year not mentioned.
Soviet war hero, en Estonian defector and gular prisoner. How fitting.
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How ironic..:)
I think there is quite a lot of neonazi-russians involved in the riots, referred as "nationalists" in Finnish media.
Modern day Neonazi Russky defending a WW2 statue, sculpted from defected Soviet soldier who was born in Estonia, who was sent to rot in Gulag camp by Soviet authorities..Huh?
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Originally posted by Dowding
The War of 1812 was an inconvenient sideshow that had little bearing on the European theatre. It ended in stalemate with neither side achieving its objectives.
Still I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand.
the objective of sending the imperialist americans home wearing their tulips as hats was fulfilled.
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Ya know... I listen to commies and they all seem to have a pretty good line....like maybe we really didn't know how great it was to live there.
Then you think back and realize that they had frigging walls to keep people in... that when anyone with any talent from there visited.. he had KGB "bodyguards" to keep him from defecting... That stalin killed 20 million or more of his own people... That 2 or more families were living in the same apartment.
How anyone can advocate socialism after the example of soviet russia is beyond me. How low on the scale of hope and ambition must you be to accept such a life?
lazs
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^ *yawn*
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Originally posted by Torque
the objective of sending the imperialist americans home wearing their tulips as hats was fulfilled.
pay attention to the topic. There were more events worldwide in 1812 than you think.
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Originally posted by lazs2
That 2 or more families were living in the same apartment.
much worse than that
Originally posted by lazs2
How anyone can advocate socialism after the example of soviet russia is beyond me. How low on the scale of hope and ambition must you be to accept such a life?
lazs [/B]
life of the privileged was very different.
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which makes it even the more evil.
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
In Iraq the death count is reaching 1million now, like the whole population of Estonia in 1940...
According to Iraq Body Count (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/), The number of civilians reported killed by thie military intervention presently stands between 62,750 and 68,786: less than 7% of a million.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
According to Iraq Body Count (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/), The number of civilians reported killed by thie military intervention presently stands between 62,750 and 68,786: less than 7% of a million.
I think he means since 1991 due to the first gulf war and the following sanctions (which of the latter is pretty much the main reason to why Iraqis hate western powers - If and when they do hate).
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Hey, I saw something about the Red Mafia the other day. I was always under the impression that they did'nt really become active until after the fall in '91. However, I've now seen a program(albeit on the History channel) that it was active and influencing gov't before then. Could it have something to do with the current crises?
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Originally posted by Suave
Then obviously it's not fake.
Oh my God. It's amazing. I listen "True Story" about my city from people who are thousands miles away :rofl
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Originally posted by mietla
pay attention to the topic. There were more events worldwide in 1812 than you think.
:aok
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Originally posted by Estel
Oh my God. It's amazing. I listen "True Story" about my city from people who are thousands miles away :rofl
You yourself said that they are exuming the remains to move them to a new memorial. Perhaps you don't know what the word fake means. Not to mention they LOST the remains.
Could you imagine how much worse the idiots would riot if it happened in a former part of the USSR?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh, in fact they already did it. Remember, Europe was "united" two times before, and both times Russians had to deal with first Napoleon and then Hitler. Time for a third one?....
You forgot to count the "united" eastern Europe .
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Originally posted by fd ski
Whole situation is nothing more then Putin testing how unified EU is.
I hope EU quickly sends as many troops to Estonia as possible. If russian citizens are indeed treated so badly there, border isn't far off, you can't go supersonic after all..
Paradize of mother russia is just off 100 km to the east. Go on. Democratic nation of freedom and citizen rights is waiting for them. What the hell are they doing in the Nazi nation like estonia ?
And since we are rewriting history, do remember fellows that World War 2 did not start on 1.9.1939. Only thing that happend on that day is democratically elected polish goverment decided to give up half of the country to Nazi germany, and on 17th it gave the other half to USSR. Shortly thereafter it ordered some of the brightest citizens to march to Katyñ and shoot themselves in the biggest mass sucicide in the world..
Pawe³, you're way off the rocker my friend.
Bartek, WWII began in 1938 when Germany and Poland divided Czechoslovakia, and USSR was the only force to offer poor CZ assistance.
Reading your posts, guys, I can only say that we face another cold war, and I am afraid it may turn hot.
We are absolutely fed up by your version of freedom and democracy. To the point when I'll support teaching bloody "victims of the occupation" again. People here are sincere now, it's not clumsy Soviet propaganda, they touched sacred things now.
Èìïåðèÿ çëà. Î÷åíü çëà.
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http://www.e-generator.ru/news/index.php?news_id=9193
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Let me get this straight..
Estonians are evil fascists because they moved a statue and excavated 12 coffins to be moved to a graveyard
What does that make out of Russians, who moved half dozen dead soviet WWII pilots and a memorial to make way for a road?
Who's the aggressor? What does that make the aggressor? Surely not a peace loving pacifist?
Oh yeah.. the evil estonians are doing this to start a war against the poor russians. Moscow is in danger, it needs a buffer zone the size of Estonia!.
Not even americans can come up with such double stantards.
Ps. Why does the russian youth organization Naši sound so much like Nazi?
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Bartek, WWII began in 1938 when Germany and Poland divided Czechoslovakia, and USSR was the only force to offer poor CZ assistance.
must have been same kind of assistance you offered during warsaw uprising, same effects for sure.
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Originally posted by fd ski
must have been same kind of assistance you offered during warsaw uprising, same effects for sure.
Let's not speak about Warsaw uprising, I don't feel ashamed that Soviet command didn't spare precious lives there for a bunch of loosers sitting in London.
In 1938 Poland didn't permit Soviet assistance to CZ mostly because it got it's share together with nazis. And in 1945 Stalin had to insist on re-creating a new Polish state in Potsdam, when "allies" were against it... Not even speaking about so-called "baltic states" that are a geo-political nonsence, given to Russian Empire by Sweden, and then a puppet "principate" of the German reich in late-WWI.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
According to Iraq Body Count (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/), The number of civilians reported killed by thie military intervention presently stands between 62,750 and 68,786: less than 7% of a million.
That link says "reported civilians killed by military intervention"(whatever that means), not civilians killed
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Originally posted by Sixpence
That link says "reported civilians killed by military intervention"(whatever that means), not civilians killed
Come up with a source for a better number. I think that "reported civilians killed by military intervention" means civilian deaths due to military intervention that have been reported. Thats what I get anyway.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Come up with a source for a better number.
what, another straw man? ok, here http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html
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Originally posted by Sixpence
what, another straw man? ok, here http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html
No straw man. I quoted a reliable, widely accepted source. You had some exception to IBC without any source to back up your argument, and I asked you for a source.
According to your site, they take exception to IBC because "IBC's methodology ignores even English-language media reports of Iraqi civilians' deaths, unless matching reports of the same casualties are published by at least "two independent agencies.""
Having two sources agree seems to be reasonable to me. Otherwise I would have accept as fact that:
Bat Boy discovered sleeping in swimming pool
(Las Vegas, WWN)
"He was lethargic at first," Eric Ricarrdi recalled in a Weekly World News interview, "but he started screeching from dusk to dawn. I slip food under the garage door to him once a day. He eats mostly table scraps and bugs, but he's starting to like the same food my roommate and I eat. He is especially fond of Spam and applesauce." Zoologist Ron Dillon--the original discoverer of the creature--travels to Las Vegas to recover Batboy and return him to Dillon's laboratory in Wheeling, West Virginia. "We underestimated the creature last time," Dillon says. "We are going to take extra measures to make sure he doesn't escape again."
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Originally posted by Boroda
how does your media cover this events? I see drastic difference between Russian TV channels and Euronews.
No surprise there. Obviously.
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Originally posted by Boroda
People here are sincere now, it's not clumsy Soviet propaganda, they touched sacred things now.
So why did they start riots, when at Moscow's Himk during April the remains of six SOviet pilots who died at war were dug up and the gravestones moved?
They're building a road over the graves!
That's blaspmeny!
Vladimir Upes of Communist party even notified that this was dishonoring of the graves. Where are the riots? The protests? Think! A road - over the soldiers' graves!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Let's not speak about Warsaw uprising, I don't feel ashamed that Soviet command didn't spare precious lives there for a bunch of loosers sitting in London.
In 1938 Poland didn't permit Soviet assistance to CZ mostly because it got it's share together with nazis. And in 1945 Stalin had to insist on re-creating a new Polish state in Potsdam, when "allies" were against it... Not even speaking about so-called "baltic states" that are a geo-political nonsence, given to Russian Empire by Sweden, and then a puppet "principate" of the German reich in late-WWI.
Man, Boroda, you just swallow this stuff hook line and sinker, huh?
For me to sound like you, I'd have to go around insisting that George Washington cut down that cherry tree, Columbus was the first person to discover America, and that the Pilgrims and Indians lived happily ever after, the end.
Read "Rising: 44" for starters, then the pertinent pages of Churchill's "Second World War." Neither cast a particularly good light on either the USA, either, so it's not just glorious western propaganda, I'm afraid.
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Originally posted by Suave
You yourself said that they are exuming the remains to move them to a new memorial. Perhaps you don't know what the word fake means. Not to mention they LOST the remains.
Could you imagine how much worse the idiots would riot if it happened in a former part of the USSR?
I believe, that I don't know what does "fake" mean. But also I know, what was that memorial before. That pilots were buried near the factory perimeter wall. Exactly in 2 meters from it. That time there wasn't a plant, it was a field on a side of wood. The factory was built later. In last few years due to water pipes leakage there raised a problem to save that place. Because of the water, the ground pieces began moving down. And the only what to save the place was to exume them and bury them in THE PROPER PLACE. Not at factory wall. But at the center of the park. And to create the new. Perfect monument. And this was done. Nobody lost the remains. They are still in military morgue labratory. If you don't know this, it means only that it is not your ****ing business.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
No straw man. I quoted a reliable, widely accepted source. You had some exception to IBC without any source to back up your argument, and I asked you for a source.
According to your site, they take exception to IBC because "IBC's methodology ignores even English-language media reports of Iraqi civilians' deaths, unless matching reports of the same casualties are published by at least "two independent agencies.""
Having two sources agree seems to be reasonable to me. Otherwise I would have accept as fact that:
Wow, from a little straw man, to this
Bat Boy discovered sleeping in swimming pool
(Las Vegas, WWN)
"He was lethargic at first," Eric Ricarrdi recalled in a Weekly World News interview, "but he started screeching from dusk to dawn. I slip food under the garage door to him once a day. He eats mostly table scraps and bugs, but he's starting to like the same food my roommate and I eat. He is especially fond of Spam and applesauce." Zoologist Ron Dillon--the original discoverer of the creature--travels to Las Vegas to recover Batboy and return him to Dillon's laboratory in Wheeling, West Virginia. "We underestimated the creature last time," Dillon says. "We are going to take extra measures to make sure he doesn't escape again."
You are weaving quite the straw man now.
Here is a quote from your site
"What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths — which can only be a sample of true deaths [if] one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."
:huh
And you take this over The Lancet study? You obviously didn't read the study. What it does is take the mortality rate before the conflict and after. That takes account for deteriorating health system, no clean water, etc., which is a result of military intervention.
Basically the ibc is run by a mom & pop who have full time jobs and read the paper.
So, basically what your saying is that if the National Enquirer and The National Examiner run this story
Bat Boy discovered sleeping in swimming pool
(Las Vegas, WWN)
"He was lethargic at first," Eric Ricarrdi recalled in a Weekly World News interview, "but he started screeching from dusk to dawn. I slip food under the garage door to him once a day. He eats mostly table scraps and bugs, but he's starting to like the same food my roommate and I eat. He is especially fond of Spam and applesauce." Zoologist Ron Dillon--the original discoverer of the creature--travels to Las Vegas to recover Batboy and return him to Dillon's laboratory in Wheeling, West Virginia. "We underestimated the creature last time," Dillon says. "We are going to take extra measures to make sure he doesn't escape again."
Then it's true?
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lol, nm, i read your post wrong:o
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The only time I heard anything about it was while I was in Germany for the past two weeks. It was on CNN International and was never anything more than a 30 second brief with no video. I have to say that for the US news media I agree with E25280 in his comments about Afghanistan, Iraq and hollywood screw ups.
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Russians are taking the issue to the UN :rofl
I guess the UN is the next evil fascist organization when they don't take any action against Estonia.
Looks like everyone who does not act according to the wishes of the russian leaders are fascists.
Russia seems to be the biggest existing fascist state at the moment.
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Why it's worth a discussion?
Free and Independent country decided to move a statue elsewhere.
Some say, the statue represents a Soviet slavery times, Other say, it represents the army that gave the land the freedon - who is right?
I'd say that everyone is entitled to have his own oppinion on this.
Then another idependent country (Russia) don't agree with this and have another opinion. Are they entitled? Sure they are!
Can Russia do anything about it? Not more then duscuss or take any action they want (legal one). It should be accepted by everyone.
Still, Estonia have the independent right to not only move, but to remove anything that belogs to them as they like - so why we are discussing it?
Cheers,
bikekil
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The estonian consulate was attacked and they tried to assault the Estonian ambassador. They wrecked the swedish ambassadors diplomatic car when he visited the Estonians.
Russians do not honor anything, not even the diplomatic immunity of other countries it seems. They think so big of themselves and demand respect - they'd better start acting respectable first.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Wow, from a little straw man, to this
Do you know what a straw man fallacy is?
How is my asking for a source to back up your objection to IBC casualty numbers a logical fallacy?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
So, basically what your saying is that if the National Enquirer and The National Examiner run this story
Bat Boy discovered sleeping in swimming pool
Then it's true?
Back when the anthrax letters were going around, a specific Florida publishing company recieved several. Turns out that most of the national supermarket tabloids (including the two you site) are put out by this same publishing company... so no, these would not be two independant sources, and would not fit the IBC criterion.
However, a single source would be sufficient for your site to declare the batboy exists.
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One last reply...
Originally posted by Sixpence
And you take this over The Lancet study? You obviously didn't read the study.
Which one? The one of October 29 2004 where the estimated 100,000 deaths or the October 11, 2006 where their estimate balooned to 655,000?
more than half a million in just two 2 years when it took a year an a half of tanks, planes and rockets to kill less than 20% of that number....
Yeah I'll take it over the Lancet study. The Lancet study doesn't pass the sniff test. At least the IBC has a consistant metodology and tells you the shortcomings right up front.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
One last reply...
lol, are sure?
more than half a million in just two 2 years when it took a year an a half of tanks, planes and rockets to kill less than 20% of that number....
Again, you are not reading the study, it is not just civilians killed by planes, tanks, and rockets.
The Lancet study doesn't pass the sniff test.
Well, it's on par with the New England Journal of Medicine, and if that can't past the sniff test for ya, not much will(unless it's the IBC of course)
At least the IBC has a consistant metodology and tells you the shortcomings right up front.
:huh Again here's the quote from the site
"What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths — which can only be a sample of true deaths [if] one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."
And that passes your sniff test?
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Russians do not honor anything, not even the diplomatic immunity of other countries it seems.
The Russians only care about diplomatic immunity when their "diplomats" are running brothels, driving under influence, or doing something else that is against the law of the country they are stationed in.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
One last reply...
lol, are sure?
I was referring to the three there that I had in a row, so yes.
more than half a million in just two 2 years when it took a year an a half of tanks, planes and rockets to kill less than 20% of that number....
Again, you are not reading the study, it is not just civilians killed by planes, tanks, and rockets.
[/B]
I read the study, I realise they add the bad water,diesease, and all other forms that can be remotely related to the military action. Seems that bad water,diesease, and all other forms that can be remotely related to the military action happened during the first 18 months too, don't ya think?
It also says that of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes.
Why then did the death rate skyrocket after the first 18 months?
The Lancet study doesn't pass the sniff test.
Well, it's on par with the New England Journal of Medicine, and if that can't past the sniff test for ya, not much will (unless it's the IBC of course)
From the Washigton post article about the Lancet study,
The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.
It's far higher than other studies, so it must be correct.
At least the IBC has a consistant metodology and tells you the shortcomings right up front.
:huh Again here's the quote from the site
"What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths — which can only be a sample of true deaths [if] one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."
And that passes your sniff test?
Let's see. You cut and pasted it, but I guess that doesn't mean you read it.... So once again,
At least the IBC has a consistant metodology and tells you the shortcomings right up front.
See, that means they say..." "What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths — which can only be a sample of true deaths [if] one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."
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Originally posted by mora
The Russians only care about diplomatic immunity when their "diplomats" are running brothels, driving under influence, or doing something else that is against the law of the country they are stationed in.
My dear distant friend, I lived in Leningrad in the 70s and early-80s so I know first-hand that Finns visiting neighbouring countries usually only care about getting deadly drunk and laying on the pavements so militia picks them up and gets them back to hotels, so they'll not get frozen to death.
I still wonder what could bring that "bodies" to my district in the very South of the city, Dachnoe and then Prospekt Veteranov metro station. Maybe you'll tell me?
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Originally posted by Boroda
My dear distant friend, I lived in Leningrad in the 70s and early-80s so I know first-hand that Finns visiting neighbouring countries usually only care about getting deadly drunk and laying on the pavements so militia picks them up and gets them back to hotels, so they'll not get frozen to death.
I still wonder what could bring that "bodies" to my district in the very South of the city, Dachnoe and then Prospekt Veteranov metro station. Maybe you'll tell me?
We also know first hand how your consulate was used as a brothel and the honorable pimps were protected by a diplomatic immunity. :D
And no folks, this is not a joke either.
And we apologize the soviet time 'vodka tourists' who went across border to eat, get laid and drunk just by trading a $.20 pair of stockings. I know you russians are horrified with a thought of a drunken person.
I mean it's not like you can see every person with Baltika9 bottle in the hand on the streets, stone out wasted at 1 pm in the center of St.Petersburg. Or can you?? :rofl
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Originally posted by Boroda
My dear distant friend, I lived in Leningrad in the 70s and early-80s so I know first-hand that Finns visiting neighbouring countries usually only care about getting deadly drunk and laying on the pavements so militia picks them up and gets them back to hotels, so they'll not get frozen to death.
I thought you told us that russians and some other nationality are better drinkers (= can drink more) than finns. Does not compute.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It's far higher than other studies, so it must be correct.
Well, the IBC is alot lower, so it must be correct
At least the IBC has a consistant metodology and tells you the shortcomings right up front.(I took the giant letters out if you don't mind)
Reading the newspaper is not consistant methodology at all, it is very inconsistant
You asked for a better source, I think the Lancet is a better source than mom & pop reading newspapers in Montana
But I guess that is where we do not agree
Well, for your health's sake, I hope you read the New England Journal of Medicine and not some people reading newspapers in Idaho
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Forgive me my ignorance Boroda, but what is your gameID?