Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Carwash on April 28, 2007, 03:25:27 PM
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Can one of the trainers help me with rolling scissors? I seem to screw it up every time I try. If you would let me know when you are going to be in the training area, I will gladly chatch up with you.
Thanks.
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Training Calendar (http://www.netaces.org/calendar/ahtacalendar.php)
Rolling scissors animation (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm)
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The way I look at rolling scissors is this-
I think of them like two of those amazing old fashioned "slinky's". Those coiled wire toys that you make walk down stairs.
Both slinky's are made out of the same length of wire (lets call it 20 feet). If you look at the flight path of the two airplanes as flying the coiling path of the slinky's, both will cover a flight distance of twenty feet. You want to fly a closer tighter coil (like the slinky is stretched out only 5-6 feet), while your opponent is flying a more stretched out flightpath (slinky is stretched out more, maybe 7-10 feet).
You will have both flown the same distance, but since your opponent flew the tighter coils, he will be out in front of you begging to be shot.
This is the basic way I look at it. This is a very effective move once you get it down. The trick at first is to actually fly coils (barrel rolls), instead of simply axial rolls.
If your opponent is trying to pull enough lead for a shot while following you through this manuever it works out pretty easily.
MtnMan
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your wrong mntman, sorry ... but so are many who post in here :)
don't run with scissors....
the idea is to get behind your attacker.... there are only two ways of doing this if defined in a certain manner.
One.....You can slow down, use a slight manuver to avoid getting shot, and your opponent will overshoot...giving you a shot at them if you've managed your E and angles correctly.
Two.....You can manuver to make your aircraft cover more distance, to end up at the same point as if flew straight... but the point is, you end up there later with a similar E state.
To use your slinky comparison.... the tighter the coil is, the better. The more time it takes you to get the same point as the coil that is spread out more... the better... until you are behind them.
Good pilots use both of these basic principals to establish what they want....but these examples of course are a great simplification.... still, looked at in these terms, they are the only two things you can do in air combat to best an attacker... anything else is just you trying to avoid getting shot, or hoping for the best, by maybe trying to out turn them or somthing.
So you manuver to make your plane take up more time... while still arriveing at a similar point...slowing down can help too sometimes, but knowing when . and how much.... is just experiance... and changes plane to plane.
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(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/diag1.JPG)
i drew this up to help convey the point (blukitty's) that while the distance travelled on both pictures is the same, the end points (Z) are in dramatically different places.
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No offense Blukitty- But I think you mis-read my post.
We essentially described the same manuever in different words, and having re-read our posts I think we both stated it in ways that could be mis-interpreted.
I said-
"You will have both flown the same distance, but since your opponent flew the tighter coils, he will be out in front of you begging to be shot."
I saying so I meant that he had flown the smaller (tighter) radius coils, causing his flightpath (slinky/coil) to be stretched more, or covering more linear distance in the same or less time (to use your time analogy, which is good). I would have been more clear had I also pointed out that while the flight distance/time was the same for both planes, the linear distance was shorter for the plane that flew the larger radius coils.
I also used the term "tighter" to first describe coils that are large radius, but close together and then use the term "tighter" as meaning stretched out more with a smaller radius. Confusing? Yup. Easy to see it in my mind, harder to put in words. I switched between describing coil "nearness?" first, then radius, using the same terms.
You said-
"To use your slinky comparison.... the tighter the coil is, the better."
You obviously mean coil tightness here, but it could be interpreted as a tighter radius, which would give the wrong result.
Also-
"You can manuver to make your aircraft cover more distance, to end up at the same point as if flew straight... but the point is, you end up there later with a similar E state."
Could be interpreted in several ways also. Distance = Flightpath? Or linear distance? etc...
Lesson learned? I need to figure out how to draw diagrams and how to post images here.
BatfinkV obviously has the right idea. (Of course! I've learned much from his posts!)
Can somebody draw the two coils we're taking about? I'll try, but no promises.
MtnMan
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Mtnman! sorry, i should have said 'to help convey the point (blukitty/mtnman's)' as yes, to me it looks like youre both on the same page.
i tried to draw an actual rolling scissor but in 2D using MS paint i had no clue how to without doing profile and plan views to look at simultaneously.
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Guys, you can see this demonstrated by clicking on the link (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm) provided by Murdr. It shows the "slinky" quite clearly.
My regards,
Widewing
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The problem with the slinky analogy is that it demonstrates only 1 of 2 methods for what we want to acomplish. What we want to acomplish is to travel downrange on the rolling scissors axis less than our opponent. One method is by adjusting the helix angle, which the slinky anology demonstrates. Another is by adjusting the cylinder diameter. Which only works with the analogy if you can picture that twisting the spring tighter (smaller circle) will make its overall length greater, and twisting the spring open (bigger circle) will make its overall length shorter. Typically you use a combination of both methods.
helix angle, cylinder diameter, and axis are all defined in the posted animation
A rolling scissors is the result of the lead plane employing a barrel roll defense, and the trail plane choosing to counter by moving to lag pursuit at a close enough separation to prevent a reversal. That is a mouth full, but all of that has to happen to maintain a rolling scissors. Remove any of those components and suddenly you no longer have a rolling scissors.
This is another reason why it's hard to get a grip on. A rolling scissors must be sustained by the actions of both pilots, making it hard to "practice".
What I would suggest is first getting a firm grasp on the barrel roll defense (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173151) because it is prerequisite to understanding positioning in a rolling scissors.
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I just tried the link again. I worked better for me this time. The first time I tried it it didn't show much, just the very beginning diagram. This time I waited longer, and guess what!! It developed into a moving diagram!!
LOL, I must have given up too early last time. I'm on 28K dial-up. I tried to "save file as" first, and it didn't work. So I opened it and waited a minute or two with just the opening picture. I then said "What the..." and replied with my description.
Due to my slow connect speed, I normally do the "save file as" thing and then go do something away from the computer for awhile.
This time I tried it again but then got up to forage for food, and saw movement on the screen when I came back!!
Sorry Murdr, had I seen the moving picture thing the first time I probably wouldn't have even said anything...
Kinda funny how we use all these written descriptions to try to get a point across, and even amongst pilots who all know/use the manuever and describe the same thing we get confused. When you look at the confusion we've shown here it's amazing we even use the written word to describe anything. Cylinder diameter vs radius is like calling 12 eggs a dozen. Loose coils vs tight coils is open to a lot of interpretation. Diameter/radius vs IIIIII or /\/\/\/\/\/\. It's even possible to have smaller diameter coils as well as coils that are closer together at the same time! And if we threw in the diameter of the wire used to make the slinky it would get really ugly. You'll never get 20ft of 1/2 inch rope into a coil the size of 20ft of thread. Wingspan could be (mis?)interpreted as rope diameter maybe?
Pictures are definately best! (And that's from somebody with an art degree, lol)
(OMW to see if the barrel roll defense you posted does the same thing!)
MtnMan
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Rolling Scissors (http://www.furballers.com/bhdominscissors.wmv)
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Liked your film Domin and would love to have the AH film viewer version of it so I can change to external view for better perspectives and see what you instuments are reading at the varying stages of the manuvers.
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Originally posted by Domin
Rolling Scissors (http://www.furballers.com/bhdominscissors.wmv)
although this is a movie with music score , it is very helpful in showing how one must fly using other views/head psoitions besides default forwad view........and knowing in the different views exactly where your opponent is in relation to your lift vector and your 3-9 line ( forward or aft of the 3-9 line )
most rolling scissors initiated will not immediately slow to a riding the edge of the stall /buffet as well.......( my view/opinion of it in this film is) the reason you see the edge of the stall/buffet in this movie is because this duel took place in the Dueling arena to where after first merge both pilots had expended their E very quickly to win the first reversal.........had these 2 pilots encountered each other in a different arena, I feel they would have good speed and would not experience the edge of the stall/buffet until near the absolute end of the fight/rolling scissors maneuver........
If you go back to the link Murdr posted on rolling scissors that Badboy made of my flight, the speed was well above 200/250 or more for most of the maneuver and flying the maneuver for position and with finese helped me keep from wasting/losing more Energy than was absolutely necessary......
I personally would not want to experience the buffet when performing a rolling scissors , to where as performing a flat scissors maneuver I would expect to dip into the riding the edge of the stall more often then not......
thanks for posting it again Domin, it is very helpful for visual clues....... ~S~
Hello mtnman,
Badboy , Murdr and I along with the other Trainers are working to bring more animated and descriptive Maneuver pictures/animated Gifs like the Barrel roll defense and the Rolling scissors animated gifs.......stay tuned :aok
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thanks for posting it again Domin, it is very helpful for visual clues....... ~S~
np
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Hi
Here is a diagram I made shortly after that animation to explain the rolling scissors. If you study the image you can see what the red pilot is doing to win.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/RollingScssors.jpg)
This diagram and the animation posted earlier should clarify the main points, other than that there are some interesting subtleties in the maneuver in terms of the appropriate control inputs that can yield very small but incremental advantages.
Questions?
Badboy
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I watched the "barrel roll defense" that was linked to Murdr's post. I must say that as a training aid, it is awesome. It clearly points out what happens and why. I also think that the way it was linked into that previous thread is helpful, as more descriptive dialog was offered by Badboy, TC, and others.
I have visited the AH Trainers website, and have it linked in my "Favorites". I think you guys (and gals!) have done and are doing wonderful work.
I think the films and diagrams are top-notch in quality.
I have a few points though, that I hope you guys accept as purely "constructive criticism". Take 'em or leave 'em, I mean no dis-respect...
One- I'm mostly computer illiterate, so I can't tell you exactly why/how the link to the "Rolling Scissors" gif was/is formed. But I can tell you that it is FAR less useful to me as a training/learning aid than was Badboys Barrel Roll Defense. Not because of the quality, because it is obviously high-quality. But rather because I can't save the file to my PC and open and watch it. The way it is linked, I have to sit and wait for it to load. At my connect speed, I waited/watched for over 45 minutes (while watching TV, and then eating dinner). In that 45 minutes, based on the little meter do-hicky at the bottom of my screen, I was able to see less than 1/2 of the file. During that time I saw an incredibly slow slide show, changing slides at about 1 frame per minute.
I may be in the minority, but don't have a fast connection. I am limited by my phone company to 28K dial-up. I normally connect at about 26K. Cable is not available. Satelite hook-up runs $600, plus nearly $100 per month. That would cause my wife to kill me, and from what I've heard it's not really optimal for AH anyway.
Making this type file accessible to dial-up folks would be appreciated. I tried getting it from the AH Trainers website with the same results. (When AH updates its versions, it takes me in the neighborhood of 13 hours to download it.) Maybe you don't want it able to be saved to another PC? It is best for me to download large files by clicking and leaving, often while I am in bed...
Second- Not to nitpick Badboys diagram of the rolling scissors, it is an awesome depiction, and one I could not improve on myself. The one thing that bugs me though, when I try to look at it as an inexperienced person would, is that it appears as though at the beginning of the manuever the red plane is in back of the blue plane, and that at the end it still appears to be. Looking at it from that perspective, what would be the advantage to flying the path it took? Wouldn't we expect the blue plane to be squeezed out in front? The relative flight paths, cylinder diameter/radius, lift vectors, etc are all depicted beautifully. I just think this diagram would show the goal/ideal scenario more clearly had the blue plane been clearly losing because of the flightpath it took. Otherwise it seems to show one plane flying the manuever better, but with no positive gain or outcome...
Obviously we won't always win the manuever, but...
Respectfully-
MtnMan
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Try this. Right click on this link and "save target as..."
rolling scissors animation (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors-ani.gif)
One note I'd add is that the rolling scissors is an advanced ACM. It often evolves from a barrel roll defense being countered a specific way by the opponent. It is very useful, but it's not intended for the inexperienced player to dwell on. Without a good knowledge of basic ACMs and tactics, it's not going to be very helpful to the novice.
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Originally posted by Badboy
Hi
Here is a diagram I made shortly after that animation to explain the rolling scissors. If you study the image you can see what the red pilot is doing to win.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/RollingScssors.jpg)
This diagram and the animation posted earlier should clarify the main points, other than that there are some interesting subtleties in the maneuver in terms of the appropriate control inputs that can yield very small but incremental advantages.
Questions?
Badboy
Excellent diagram Badboy. This clearly shows why Dolfo got me when we engaged in a rolling scissors. He followed the path of the red plane, while I followed the path of the blue plane. I was going too fast and didnt have a steep enough angle. Within 3 rolls Dolfo was behind me I was in the tower.
Dolfo is a beast. I thought I did ok since I am a relative newcomer to the 38.
Dolfo. I would love to pick your brain sometime.
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Thank you Murdr! That link-type is exactly what I needed!
As for the advanced level of the rolling scissors, I agree. There are lots of other things inexperienced players need to work on first, and put more effort into.
As a person who has done more than his share of training and teaching, with both people and animals, I understand how difficult it must be to teach people the finer points of ANYTHING online. Air combat is definatly a tough one, even one on one in a classroom environment.
One of the toughest parts here is the need to make concepts/information available to the student at the right point. Timing when to release the next idea to a student is very important. Too early/too much info can cause some serious confusion or cause/allow a student to "skip ahead" without learning the foundation skills, while at the same time withholding info/concepts from a student who is ready for the next step can also be detrimental. It can cause boredom or frustration, making it harder to continue learning, or even causing the student to leave and try to progress on his own.
How do you meter at what rate to distribute info and concepts to a new student in an online environment? In my own real-world experience's I "read" my "students" and can allow them to progress at a rate that suits them individually. When a student has trouble learning a new idea I can repeat it, or even adjust my techniques to make sure they learn the new idea or behavior in the manner I desire.
That has to be tough in your situation, especially when many of your "students" are silent observers reading your write-ups and disecting your diagrams/films with no added dialog from an actual trainer.
I think you guys are on the right track. The information you offer is very good/important. You can't force people to learn, especially when they are participating in a leisure activity. You guys have set up a good way to distribute information to those who would like to learn it though!
MtnMan
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Originally posted by mtnman
it appears as though at the beginning of the manuever the red plane is in back of the blue plane, and that at the end it still appears to be.
Hi mtnman.
It isn't supposed to appear that way. If you take another look at the starting position you might notice from the perspective that the Red aircraft is closer to you than the Blue aircraft and is just in front of the Blue pilot's 3-9 line, and facing the same way. Not easy to see in a two dimensional diagram, but it actually places the Red pilot at a positional disadvantage. Red pilot reverses his turn into the Blue pilot and into the rolling scissors, ending in the position shown. At that point I think you can see that the Red pilot is in a position known as the high six, the control position and the fight is almost over... Red will now be employing his gunnery skills, and Blue will be executing a guns defence.
The transition from a position of advantage, to one of advantage is admittedly subtle, but that is why so many new pilots lose the advantage without understanding why. My hope was that the diagram and the film would clarify that.
I just think this diagram would show the goal/ideal scenario more clearly had the blue plane been clearly losing because of the flightpath it took. Otherwise it seems to show one plane flying the maneuver better, but with no positive gain or outcome...
You should be able to see that the Blue pilot started with a slight positional advantage, and that Red's flight path reversed the situation until at the end Red is behind and slightly above the Blue pilot ready to shoot.
Obviously we won't always win the maneuver, but...
Somebody almost always wins, it is the sort of fight that once you are in it, it is very difficult to disengage without conceding a shot. Normally when you get into a rolling scissors, somebody is going die, if you grasp the concept and practice it until you can apply it with a degree of skill, you will find that you can win with it most of the time, because you would be surprised how many people fly it badly :)
Anyway, I hope you got something from it.
Badboy
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Geeesh ... I was gonna say ... "Don't run with them"
:rolleyes:
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Hi Badboy-
I guess I'm just having trouble with the perspective at the beginning. It looks to me like the Red plane is actually behind the 3-9 of the Blue. I agree however that the Red plane, although looking to me like it is behind the Blue, is definately going to have trouble getting a shot solution on the Blue plane and is likely in danger of over-shooting. Especially since its lift vector is away from the Blue plane.
It is obvious though that by the end of the manuever it has greatly improved its position. So I guess it looks to me like the beginning starts with a questionable advantage, transitioning to a clear advantage. In my mind it doesn't show an advantage lost, so much as an advantage "tweaked" into a much more solid advantage.
Looking at it from your perspective, I can see where you are coming from. With extra explanation and coupled with the film, I can see where a lot of value can be derived from it. As a stand-alone diagram, without the film and dialog, I still feel that the subtleness is awful hard for a beginner to the concept/manuever to grasp. I more blunt approach, showing a more clear advantage lost / gained would seem easier for a beginner to comprehend.
I use this manuever most often when I'm starting from a disadvantaged position. Slower, with a faster con on my six. I start with the Barrel roll, but if he tries to follow, it transitions into the Rolling Scissors. 9 times out of 10 I end up on his six in a few turns, with him trying to slam on the brakes but too late to avoid over-shooting. I generally prefer to convince my opponent that I'm going to run first, so he WEPS to catch me. His extra speed makes things easier on me unless he's smart and refuses to play my game.
I also use it more as I see in your diagram, when I'm advantaged but my opponent begins the Barrel Roll. It obviously works that way too, but I guess I don't normally consider it as offensive even though I'm using it that way. I guess in that situation I see it more as if I'm simply defeating his attempt at the manuever, rather than me winning it. I know it sounds odd.
MtnMan