Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: zlehmann on April 30, 2007, 08:08:28 AM
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ive been reading alot about the use of your flaps in the turning fights and stuff and was wondering if someone could elaborate on what you put your flaps down for and when? ive tried a few times but i end up stalling out and half the time im moving too fast to deploy flaps...any help is great thanks!
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Flaps are usefull for taking off on a carrier. Or landing for that matter.
I use a notch or two for landings at airfields. Lowered flaps, chopped throttle = quicker stop. I'm a geek and even work my rudder back and forth on the runway for additional drag.
If I find myself trying to turn my F4F with a A6M (not that I really want to) then I'll dump several notches of flaps.
If a con is on your six and you cannot out-maneouver them, then try to force a very, very slow overshoot...drop flaps and chop throttle.
Dropping flaps (if you are going slow enough) for sissors or barrel rolls can force overshoots.
And last, but certainly not least, if you find yourself in a turn fight with the same plane as you are flying, then flaps can give you the edge to out turn them and get the shot.
Also note that trimming the elevators will also give you the edge in a turn fight. One German ace actually flew this way all the time.
Hope this helps.
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Flaps, flowered, slotted and the rest were designed for one purpose and one purpose alone. That is to allow the pilot to increase his angle of decent without increasing his airspeed, period. As in during an approach to landing.
Combat flaps came about because it was noticed that when flaps were deployed it allowed the pilot to increase the angle of attack (AOA) without stalling and falling out of the air. In a turn fight it’s all about AOA and relative wind (RW).
RW in a perfect world would always strike head on to and follow the cord line of the wing from the leading edge on back to the trailing edge. Put a good for nothing pilot in the cockpit pushing and pulling on the stick, that AOA starts to move all over the place followed by the RW not flowing so smoothly from leading edge to trailing edge. You get laminar airflow interruption (the airflow separates from the wing) and lose of lift, that thing that makes you clime and turn.
Putting out flaps at an air speed that allow you to put down flaps will increase the wing area and allow for a higher AOA to occur before you get airflow separation. You can roll into a turn and increase the mount of life the wing is generating (tighten the trun) by increasing the AOA (pulling back on the stick).
P51 has the first 10% of flaps as Combat flaps. You can deploy them up to an indicated 350mph. The P38 allows you to put down the first notch of flaps at 250 MPH indicated.
Of course with all these flaps hanging out and these high AOA’s the prudent pilot will keep in mind that at some point in the slowing down process additional power perhaps, lots of it, will be needed or as you have found out the stall will happen.
Hope this helps
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Originally posted by Yknurd
Also note that trimming the elevators will also give you the edge in a turn fight.
Umm. No.
Originally posted by hitech
The only time trim would help your turn rate is if your stick is already full back, and you still need more elevator. This would only be the case at higher speeds in some planes where you can not exert enof stick force.
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OH MY GOD. I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
I'LL NEVER SHOW MY FACE HERE AGAIN!!!
I QUIT!!!!!!!ONE
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My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk :)
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Originally posted by Yknurd
OH MY GOD. I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
I'LL NEVER SHOW MY FACE HERE AGAIN!!!
I QUIT!!!!!!!ONE
Well I'm glad HE'S gone !!!:D
dudini, check out some of the films in Murdrs signature. Its an easy thing to get my 38 under 100 in a good turn fight or in a rope. Speed is life, but some times ya just don't have it and need to try something else.
Flaps are great to add just a bit more lift to your wings when you are pushing the envolope. Keeping that little bit of lift on your wings might be enough to roll over and kill the guy stalling under you.
On the other hand flying with deployed flaps really kills your "E", so get them out to help in your turn, then get them back in as quick as you can.
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It depends on the design of the plane. The flaps change the shape of the wing in a way that adds lift, lowers stall speed, and adds drag. All of these are desirable when landing.
Light weight, highly maneuverable and stable fighters would have no use for flaps at higher speeds.
Heavier airframe with high wingloading could benefit from the effects of flaps at higher speeds. Some planes were designed to have low angle flap settings with this in mind.
Generally speaking, if your maneuvering is being limited by G's you have no need for flap deployment. If your maneuvering is being limited by stall conditions, you might benefit by deploying flaps, but at the cost of additional drag. Anything in between those two where you are too fast to deploy flaps is a design limitation of your plane.
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Okay, trim will help you with compression though. P-38's and 109's look here.
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Originally posted by duddini
My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk :)
I use full flaps for every landing so that's not a dweeby thing to do... it's the right thing.
Speed isn't always survival. Often a fight will degenerate to a true "stall fight" at speeds as low as 80 mph indicated (or less) and it's the guy who can maintain manouverability with the stall buzzer howling that's going to win. Well within the range where flaps will deploy (usually around 150 for most planes, much higher in some).
Using flaps will usually tighten your turn radius but may also decrease speed to the point that making a full 180 degree turn actually takes longer even though the turn is tighter.
The plane makes a big diference in whether or not you want to use flaps. For the most part in Spits with two settings (full up and full down) you won't want to use them but in an F4U with five settings and flaps that will deploy at 300 mph or so they allow you to increase instantaneous turn rate to track a target while still other planes, like the P-38's for example, seem get over the top better with a notch of flaps. Most people who use flaps deploy them for a moment to help track a target, slow down, get over the top, avoid a stall or for some other purpose then pull them right back in while others depending on the plane leave them out most of the time (KI-84's for example seem to like flaps out).
It all depends on what you're flying and what you're doing with it. I'd suggest experimenting to see what works with your plane and style. There is no one size fits all when it comes to flap use except for landing.
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if it is a good t&b fight, I will have the stall buzzer in my ear almost the entire time ..
during that time both flaps and manual trim help .. as does throttle and wep
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first you have to know what all the different flap types are like. The regular slotted flaps are used by planes like the F4U Corsair and the P-51 Mustang. These are literally a part of the trailing edge of the wing, and they (for the lack of a better word) bend downwards changing the shape of the wing as Murdr stated. This changes the AoA and causes a higher lift co efficient. This helps out in instantaneous turning and to an extent, in sustained turning. There is a cost in drag, however. Dropping the flaps too much consequently causes a drag-lift co-efficient ratio with waaay too much drag so you end up turning uber slow with your nose pointed up high.
Then the enemy just ends up not necessarily outturning you, but turning FASTER.
The next type of flap is the split flap, which the Tempest, Hurricane and Spitfire uses. For the Spitfire and Hurricane (in real life), the flaps are of dual stages. Up (0 degrees deflection) and down (50 degrees deflection). These flaps don't really change the shape of the wing too much and they seem to be less efficient in raising the lift co-efficient without a higher cost in drag than the slotted flaps, but they do cause speed to drop uber quickly. When i used to fly the Spitfire, i'd use these split flaps as brakes and then quickly flip the plane over in the loop, though the F4U seems much better at that than the Spitfire, what with its speed brakes and all :D
The last, most complicated and (usually) the heaviest flap system is the Folwer flap, probably named after some awesome dude whose last name was Folwer. Anyway, these flaps are usually like split flaps, but don't just extend downward, but rear-wards as well. They end up giving more wing area with a very small amount of drag. The P-38 is fitted with this as is the Ki-84.
Now, Zlehmann, your La-7 is fitted with the multi-stage split flap, which opens up at around 165 mph methinks. They're useful when in dogfights actually. When at the top of loops and slow, you can drop a notch or two to get you flipping over quickly and hammer on top of your enemy. If you want to cause an overshoot, go right ahead, though i doubt experienced F4U and P-38 pilots can get overshot by an La-7. I also find split flaps useful when im really low on speed, but diving BUT still slow enough to drop flaps. At that instant, i'll drop a notch or two and i can follow an enemy for a few more precious seconds. But hey, you can pretty much run away, come back and HO like most La-7's do lol.
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule4.html#flaps (http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule4.html#flaps)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I use full flaps for every landing so that's not a dweeby thing to do... it's the right thing.
Speed isn't always survival. Often a fight will degenerate to a true "stall fight" at speeds as low as 80 mph indicated (or less) and it's the guy who can maintain manouverability with the stall buzzer howling that's going to win. Well within the range where flaps will deploy (usually around 150 for most planes, much higher in some).
Using flaps will usually tighten your turn radius but may also decrease speed to the point that making a full 180 degree turn actually takes longer even though the turn is tighter.
The plane makes a big diference in whether or not you want to use flaps. For the most part in Spits with two settings (full up and full down) you won't want to use them but in an F4U with five settings and flaps that will deploy at 300 mph or so they allow you to increase instantaneous turn rate to track a target while still other planes, like the P-38's for example, seem get over the top better with a notch of flaps. Most people who use flaps deploy them for a moment to help track a target, slow down, get over the top, avoid a stall or for some other purpose then pull them right back in while others depending on the plane leave them out most of the time (KI-84's for example seem to like flaps out).
It all depends on what you're flying and what you're doing with it. I'd suggest experimenting to see what works with your plane and style. There is no one size fits all when it comes to flap use except for landing.
Good info here. Do you want to be the guy who once he runs outta steam is an easy target? Or do you want to be able to see a high con coming in and realize you still have a chance? Learn to twist and turn that plane at slow speeds and you've truely mastered it. Anyone can fly a yak at 400mph, see how they do at 100.
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i like flaps.. i fly the f6f ..alot..its a blue plane:p
it needs a cupholder:(
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Originally posted by duddini
My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk :)
Depends on what planes you are flying too.
If you've got a B&Z (Boom and Zoom) plane making high speed slashing attacks, flaps will be of little use most of the time. Unless you find yourself in a vertical or slow speed fight, don't worry about flaps. P-38 would be a good exception to the rule here.
If you are flying a Turn and Burn (T&B), or one of the better stall-fighters, then flaps become very important. Zeke's and Spits come to mind here. I fly Ki-84's as my choice of T&B/vert fighter, and they have an even slower speed requirement to drop flaps than most.
Flaps are for slow speed and high angle of attack (steep climb) maneuvers. There are also some times and planes where you can drop the landing gears in a combat maneuver to quickly scrub off speed.
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Umm. No.
i disagree.
elevator trim is essential.
Originally posted by Yknurd
Also note that trimming the elevators will also give you the edge in a turn fight.
this statement is most definitely 100% correct.
he didnt say it would give you 'better turn radius' he just said it would 'give you an edge'
and it does, most certainly.
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By all means, start a thread opining on the best method of elevator trim for turn fighting. If I had been mistaken about seeing the essence of a common myth in that statment, there would have already been a reply to that effect.
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i am allowed to agree with YKnurd's statement, i think, no need for another thread.
just dont want peolple who are learning to think that manual trim is a waste of time.
he said it gives you an edge, and in my mind, it does, case closed.
S!
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Ok so...[list=a]
- manual trim can not make you turn tighter except as noted by HiTech
- manual trim is not a waste of time
[/list=a] That was easy enough.
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who took the jam out of your dohnut?
:huh
do you wish to propose to me that using manual elevator trim DOES NOT GIVE YOU AN EDGE in a turn fight?
nobody except you said anything about 'turns tighter' why cant you get that through your force shield?
i shall leave you in peace now, oh mighty one.
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I like the way you came back and edited your 3rd bullet point.
"C. its in batfink's head, it must be right, case closed."
kinda weak seeing as its too late to edit my reply. and i still want to know who took the jam out of your dohnut.
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time stamps :noid
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well lemme know where they live i'll go round and beat the jam outta them.
:D
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If it makes it easier for you, I hereby give you permission to spell my name as Drunky.
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wow thanks for all the info guys that really really helps. ive also moved away from the la-7 :cry im trying out a few new planes to see what style i like. but to be honest i have had much success with anything...you guys are just too good for us newbies!
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
do you wish to propose to me that using manual elevator trim DOES NOT GIVE YOU AN EDGE in a turn fight?
Only in EXTREME cases where both pilots are almost equal in terms of their skill and when flying the same plane types just maybe.........
we all have our own idea of how trim works for our own particular need...some go around flying with combat trim on ALL THE TIME...so when they are slow that elevator is trimmed all way up to keep the nose up.........some ( ME) set their manual trim to the cruise speed of the particular plane, so when they get a firing solution they are not fighting the COMBAT TRIM and having to jink/push forward on the stick to rest the bore sight....they have to actually pull ( which is much more steady ) to maintain a good firing shot.......
some just mess with manual trim way to much and it causes them to get shot down because they wasting to much SA on Trim instead of SA on what is happening around them :D
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i always, always use manual elevator trim when i have someone saddled on my six and i need to break and reverse.
for me, it is not a matter of gaining extra turn ability, it is a matter of not having to pull the stick back as far for the same turn. Letting the plane pull me through the turn not the other way round.
i never even think about trim i just know when i need it and i often do.
just personal preference, i suppose.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
If it makes it easier for you, I hereby give you permission to spell my name as Drunky.
awesome.
but i wont waste it on everyday usage. FKnurd for standard communication and bad mouthing, drunky for special occasions...ok?
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1st off, B@tfinkV,
I am not trying to pick an arguement with you, or even pick on you or anything , but what in your simple definition/description is TRIM used for ( elevator trim/aileron trim) ?
my short answer is : it helps keep the plane centered / flying straight and level by adjusting trim tabs to compensate for torque, prop wash and other misc effects ......to keep it short
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i always, always use manual elevator trim when i have someone saddled on my six and i need to break and reverse.
I think you feel that adjusting trim for the elvator helps you reverse or breakturn quicker........ if the trim helps you do this verses pulling on your joystick, you might want to think and check on how your joystick is scaled on the different axis......just a thought.......for me I have all my sliders at the very top across all 0 to 90.......I do not have to pull very far at all unless I absolutely desire too, with that said. Where do you have your sliders set on your scaling?
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
for me, it is not a matter of gaining extra turn ability, it is a matter of not having to pull the stick back as far for the same turn. Letting the plane pull me through the turn not the other way round.
I do not really understand this, you are using TRIM to turn your plane verses using the joystick to turn it? seems you would always be adjusting the TRIM non stop , again you should re think on ow you have your stick scaling set up if you think you have to PULL a whole lot to turn the plane.....
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i never even think about trim i just know when i need it and i often do.
just personal preference, i suppose.
fully understand the personal preference thing, but it just seems that you making yourself do a whole lot of unnecessary work/labor that isn't really needed......but this is my personal view..........am trying to understand why you are relying on the TRIM features so much.......
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I've never used trim, don't need to. Tried it once and didn't like it. Everything works just fine for me.
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The only time I've ever used trim (outside of minor course or climb adjustments while getting to a fight on auto-pilot) is to trim elevators up when compressing in a dive, particularily with some of the 109's. I will say it's saved my butt a few times in that situation.
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no need to step on eggshells TC, i dont think anyone is argueing.
thanks for the scalling advice, but mine is just as good as it can be, 8 month old cyborg and they not too hot when they new. its setup fine.
what i do i set the down on the single hat switch as elevator trim up, and a close thumb button as toggle combat trim. there is a thumb button below the hat that i use for check6. it first started with a busted check six view on old stick hat forcing the thumb ck6.
now i, forgive my arrogance, never once requested nor recived a training session from the corps, and i never really went much for the new school dueling scene unless at a friendly and meaningless level other than for fun.
about a year into AH1 i was learning as much as i could with pwnage sessions in the DA from people like yucca, sniper, bighorn, wildthng and other who could whipe the floor with me in seconds.
Sniper in particular showed me the perfect moments and moves in which to adjust elevator trim for maximum spitV dweebery. and i distinctly remember bighorn answering my question 'yes manual trim can be a deciding factor in a close turn fight.' i just belive in what i was shown and have found to produce the results.
whatever the technical sides of trim being covered here, and believe me the training corps is second to none for excelent and regular tech info, nothing can deny me how it feels when i fly a certain way that i have flown and developed over 4 maybe nearly 5 years now, i certainly would not try to tell anyone else how they should best fly any given bird, but i can sure say my own way.
my first, and yet last words on this discourse remain the same, i agree with the post stating 'manual trimming can give you an edge.'
S!
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No Worries B@tfinkV,
I did not want you to think I was arguing, since I sort of sidestepped my way in to the conversation :)
yes, I did mention above that:Only in EXTREME cases where both pilots are almost equal in terms of their skill and when flying the same plane types just maybe
in response to a question you had asked:
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
do you wish to propose to me that using manual elevator trim DOES NOT GIVE YOU AN EDGE in a turn fight?
as you and I both have stated, along with others..use what works for you.
for the most part, I find it unnecessary to use the elevator trim, but there are occassions where it might help as I listed above. Others also mentioned in dives when compressing, or other possible times like if you are flying a damaged plane....
and I am not trying to make you change the way you fly, B@t, curiosity sparked me to respond, by the way you described how & why/when you use the trim, that is all :)
I feel flying out of plane maneuvers to benefit alot more in gaining angles than adjusting trim, but still there will always be those extreme fights where one pulls out all punches/tricks they can think of
look forward to seeing you up in the game
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There is a persistant myth regarding manual triming elevators making one turn tighter. While nobody specifically said that, it should not take much of a leap for anyone, expecially newer players to read into the quote I first cited, and conclude it can make one turn tighter. The implication is there whether intended or not.
As a trainer, I am on the lookout to make sure correct info is posted clearly somewhere in a thread. Drunky (who I find quite entertaining at times) was more than welcome to further elaborate on his comments if my reply was off track of his intended statement. Actually, a more detailed explaination would be a great addition to the discussion. But Im not going to take part in a third party debate on semantics, because only the poster can say exactly what they meant.
Now personally I used manual trim exactly as TC described that he uses it. That is what works best for me.
When it comes to issues of gameplay, and of personal preference, trainers are not here to teach our personal preferences or debate what is "best". We explain the scope/limitations of the game model, and offer suggestions for technics if there is more than one way to accomplish the task in question.
Sorry for being relatively brief or silent, but I wanted to let the on topic part of the thread play out before participating in a hi-jack.
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Hey TC... What speed do you take CT off for the Corsairs again?
I just came back from a six month hiatus and they went and changed the graphics on me! No more lining it up at the bottom of the L!
(THAT I always found useful stability wise).
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For the F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-4 I am setting TRIM out at 325/330 mph ( IAS needle/white needle )
in the F4U-1C because of it using the old cockpit insturmentation, I still set it at 280 to 300..........er ELV trim line ( Red Line in line with the bottom of the L
E
L _
V
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Thanks, TC :)
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I fly mostly the a6m2b right now and I use 1 to 2 notches of flaps all the time during turn fights (when it gets slow).
I normally don't go more than 2 notches unless the fight gets real, real slow and then I'll drop my gears, if I need to get it any slower. I Normally only do that against another a6m's or the occasional spit 5 pilot that's good. Otherwise 1 or 2 notches is more than enough to get you turning inside most other planes.
Flaps will slow you down, but I find in the A6m I'm never too worried about speed anyway it's sweet spot is under 200mph so I just stay in the 150 to 200 mpg range at most times. Only time I fly any faster is if I'm going to or away from the fight. So losing speed isn't ever a real issue to me in most cases.
However I normally don't leave my flaps on long, if I'm slow enough to deploy them anyway. I normally raise them back as soon as I get the tight turn I needed, because otherwise the enemy plane might get a run from you.
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ok i thought about it last night while flying.
concluded that the most imprtant thing i use manual trim for is fine control.
having a very cheap stick one is limited when it comes to gentle movements of the elevators, and should i be pulling a certain ammount, just riding the stall point, and need that tiny bit extra but cannont acurately achieve it with the stick, then a manual trim becomes a perfect method of fine adjustment. At this moment, just notching the trim back a little way will give me that extra turn without me risking pulling a little too hard on a stick with poor fine control.
its definitely not a scalling or setup issue, the stick simply cannot produce as fine results as adding some trim, especially whens its almost a year old.
S!
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
For the F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-4 I am setting TRIM out at 325/330 mph ( IAS needle/white needle )
in the F4U-1C because of it using the old cockpit insturmentation, I still set it at 280 to 300..........er ELV trim line ( Red Line in line with the bottom of the L
E
L _
V
ok, i'm confused here, and should prob. just go re-read all the posts, but...
are you saying TC that when you reach those airspeeds, you turn combat trim on, then off so it's "trimmed at those speeds"? and then you fight like that?
(just gettin' clarification)
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I don't know about TC, but that is exactly how I use it. If you slow and deploy flaps, the extra lift from the flaps actually keeps the nose from being trimmed too heavy. Like TC said, I'd rather it be trimmed so that I dont have to force the nose down during shooting. But even trimmed for cruise speed, some planes will be nose light with several notches of flaps out.
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Hello all again.
B@tfink, I see that your avatar displays the Spitfire Mk.V. Im wondering how you fly that agains the Zeros after it has been nerfed of the c-type wing and the +16 lb. boost that I was told was in Aces High I (a plane which I think should replace the current Mk.V). With a climb rate of 600 fpm less and a decrease in speed and acceleration, I'm barely able to outdive those A6M's with the Spitfire F. Mk. IX let alone the 1941 Spitfire Mk.V!
Plus I think I may need some training or lecture on dodging higher-alt Spitfires, La-7's and other BnZ lightweights.
Sorry to say priorities have totally taken me off from paying for the fully online version, so I can only play on 8-player.
P.S. Why is there a random Seafire Mk.IIC ..? shouldnt it be the more common Seafire L Mk.III? And I'm not sure, but should the 182 lbs. of extra weight on the Spitfire LF VIII over the Spitfire IX really affect maneuverability that much? I find i outturn Spitfire LF VIII's in the game very often in my F4U-1A - even at low speed.
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hey Dweebfire i would be more than happy to hook up if we meet online, and we can go to a quiet area and fly some spitV. just shout anytime you see me in game.
my only real advice on killing a zero in the MkV is to play it from the negative energy advantage, slow down as much as you can and unless the zeke is on form you will have little trouble staying in control for the first minute of the fight.
i will try to find some films.
the F4u is a very likely winner vs most spitfies, especially in a medium to slow speed fight, unless the spitfire slows down first.
S!
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thanks!
yea, the F4U Corsair is, IMO, the best overall prop-driven fighter design of WWII and vertical fighting is fun in it. However, the late-variant LF Spitfires seem to accelerate so quickly that they can disengage from the F4U's at any time and quickly build up energy while the F4U- (sometimes, even new F4U-4 pilots) is lagging behind after blowing energy on fighting with gear and flaps. After extending the Spit can climb away or turn the whole thing into a turn fight.
F4U-4's have the option to run, dive, and (if already fast) to outzoom the Spitfires.
With pros at the controls, methinks it all comes down to pilot skill and maybe a tad of luck, but those rare, good Spitfire pilots will seemingly always find an altitude advantage.
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Ahem, why would a spit disengage from an F4U? Are we being funny here? lol
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I personally use manual trim in fights like Murdr and TC mentioned also. I use combat trim for general flying, but when in fights I prefer manual.
I almost always end up dumping flaps in my fights, and I don't like the ballooning effect the combination of flaps and combat trim give me. I basically only fly the corsair variants. I like them trimmed for fights right around the 275-300 mark. I hate auto trim for vertical roping. I find I have difficulty reversing quickly and smoothly, and attribute it to the fact that combat trim throws in a lot of elevator, aileron, and rudder trim at the top of my rope. Things go much better for me if I'm trimmed closer to neutral.
My general strategy for flaps usage is that I never consider flaps to be neutral in affect. They are either helping or hindering me, depending on the moment. I don't limit myself to dropping a certain amount of flaps, but rather I go by feel. I'll drop all five notches if I need to.
When the F4U is approaching the edge of a stall, it seems to give a little wobble and drop a wing, hard. If I have that happen, I know I was too late in dropping a notch, or another notch, of flaps. I've already screwed up if that happens. So I try to anticipate when that will happen, and drop a notch before that (just before).
If the flaps "blow" back up then I've also screwed up again, at least in my mind. Generally, that means I'm accelerating, which means the flaps are hindering me again. So I try to raise them a notch before that happens as well. Not all at once, necessarily, because taking them all the way up to fast can do bad things too. If I'm very much nose-down, and trying to rapidly accelerate (panic mode?, or chase mode...) then I will take them all the way up quickly.
I often (very often) drop 1-2 notches of flaps at the top of immelman type reverses to help bump my nose over quicker. As soon as I'm nose-down again I put them back up. My left index finger "lives" on my flap switch(on my throttle). Pulling back/up drops flaps, pushing down/forward puts them back up. (Just like the throttle-push to go faster). If I'm reversing flat to burn E, then they get deployed there too- to help burn the E..
I don't find I need to drop my gear for braking more than once or twice per month, and that is usually in a last-ditch effort to not over-shoot. If I do drop them to force an overshoot, I try to drop them when my opponent is in a position where he can't see them go down. I put them up again very quickly too. They're not generally deployed for more than 1-3 seconds at a time. I feel that if my opponent see's them go down I've given him information I'd rather he not have.
What Dedalos said--- They way I fight spits, N1k's, zero's, etc... I get them to go fast, them I slam on the brakes and turn inside them, using my slower speed and flaps to turn inside them and then kill them. It has to be quick, because once they slow down they will turn inside me. RIGHT before that happens, I exit the fight by diving out while they are in a climb. That will give me time to get some speed while they reverse and try to run me down. Generally I have 1.5-2k seperation. I don't want any more than that. They cooperate by chasing me. Since I'm running they will firewall and WEP. If I'm getting away, I drop throttle a bit to keep them chasing. Once they are back up to 325 or so, I chop throttle, break hard (dropping flaps generally) and execute the barrel roll defense. Once again I have a brief opportunity to get my kill, or I will escape again and try over. I can slow down very rapidly in the hog compared to a spit. Couple that with the fact that the spit driver thinks he needs to chase hard, and that he thinks he's in control...
If the spit disengages, he will die most times. He may get some seperation at first, but I'll run him down. When he's forced to break again, I chop, drop, and decelerate again. Same pattern as before, but I have better position this time. If he tries to disengage he helps me out :^)
All this slow flying draws crowds. If you don't have good SA, you die. When the furball is running north to south, I make sure I escape east or west to keep the fight private...
MtnMan
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From the Aces High Training page:
"CT does not work immediately or exactly, it does not work well at very high or very low speeds, and it does not take into account things like flaps. Basically, CT is simply a table of pre-generated trim settings for various airspeeds with the aircraft in a clean condition.
*****(Aerodynamically clean, meaning no flaps or gear deployed.)*****
As your speed and altitude change, CT automatically adjusts your trim tabs for you to get close to a balanced trim condition. While CT is fine for just cruising around looking for a fight, when you actually engage in combat, you may or may not want to use CT depending on the conditions."
So if you use combat flaps you should get to know your manual trim settings.
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Anyone can fly a yak at 400mph, see how they do at 100.
I agree.
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great info thanks mtnman, tried explaining this stuff yesterday but i'm not to good. going to send this page to some one.
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i should probably learn to use manual trim, it might make me better, im just so used to ct
only time i shut it off is when im out of control i have my nob pre set to full up and just clik it off to pull out.
in the 38 though i find it does help me to have it nuteral when engaged and going for vertical reversals and hammerheads. keeps me from flipping on my back so easy.
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Sounds like I need to learn to turn CT off in fights...never have paid that much attention to it.
However, I have noticed a lot of the effects described here, having to push the nose down to line up shots, the ballooning effect when flaps are out, etc. etc.
Technical question here - when you toggle the combat trim off, does it stay in the last position it was just in, the last position it was in prior to CT (last manual settings) or automatically go to neutral position?
Also, I am assuming that when you toggle it back on, it "erases" any other trim input you had and goes to whatever CT factors it to be...
Please advise...
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Technical question here - when you toggle the combat trim off, does it stay in the last position it was just in, the last position it was in prior to CT (last manual settings) or automatically go to neutral position?
Also, I am assuming that when you toggle it back on, it "erases" any other trim input you had and goes to whatever CT factors it to be...
Please advise...
When I had the elevator and aileron trims mapped to an extra HAT switch the trims stayed right where CT had them at the moment I toggled CT off. I then immediately adjusted my trims if needed, and I got good at toggling CT off before the trims moved where I didn't want them to go. For example, if I was going to rope someone, I might enter the vertical with CT on, and trims were close to where I wanted them, so I would toggle CT off before they moved due to my decreasing speed.
I now have the elevator and aileron trims mapped to dials on my throttle. When I toggle CT off, the trims move to where I have my dials set. This allows me to pre-set a desired trim setting and when I flip CT off my trims move to a known, pre-set point.
Regardless of manual trim setting, when CT is toggled back on the trims will move to wherever CT thinks they should be. The change either way isn't immediate, it takes a few seconds for the trims to move.
MtnMan
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Homeboy wrote an interesting article on trim.
http://snomhf.exofire.net/ahtrim.html
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As a side note to this discussion, let me state that I have yet to generate a smaller turning circle using manual trim vs combat trim. That's regardless of the airplane. There's no difference using manual or CT when it comes to minimum turn radius. The difference that I see in some aircraft is that it is a bit easier to stay on the edge using manual trim. This relates to the accuracy or resolution of the specific joystick in use. Less sophisticated sticks usually are not as precise and may benefit more from manual trim. I know this; if I switch between my FighterStick and an X45, it's easier to stay on the edge with the FighterStick.
A second thing to consider is that flying in manual trim results in faster control response because it seems that CT takes a split second longer to adjust to sudden inputs and can induce some nose bounce while CT gets happy.
My use of manual trim depends on the aircraft I'm flying. Aircraft with high control forces lead me to use manual trim. Those that retain low control force at low and high speeds leads me to leave CT on. This is in reference to the MAs. Dueling, I go in and out of CT as I feel necessary as trim is mapped to a throttle 4-way hat.
My regards,
Widewing