Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Karash on May 01, 2007, 03:41:29 PM
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Disclaimer: I do not claim to be an expert at AH...that is why I am posting here.
The Ki-84 is my primary bird...and has been for quite awhile. Throughout this time I have slowly come to the conclusion that 1.) the flight model gets hosed or 2.) there is some sort of weird AOA issues inheirent with its airframe. The reason I bring this up is that I have talked with some other Ki-84 pilots and they all confirm the characteristics that I am about to discribe.
It seems to me that if I am dogfighting with an opponent, with a lot of manuevers both in the vertical and circling (basic knife fighting), the Ki-84 loses its stability to such an extreme that barely moving the stick will cause it to stall...even when going over 200mph IAS. At speeds that flaps are no where near an option to help you turn or keep you up in the air. This seems to happen at any altitude...but a common theory is it is most prevailent when you enter a fight with a lot of speed, then dump it suddenly while angling to attack a enemy's six.
I have been in situations both on the deck and at 15k feet where I have over 250mph speed and any stick movement will start the stall noise. You litterly have to treat the joystick so gingerly that often you cannot come around on your target's six even though you know your plan should be capable to. My only wingman Zes in my squad has the same problem, and I have talked to a few other pilots that again confirmed their problems.
Is there a problem with the game? Or is it something with the actual Ki-84 airframe causing this? Or am I just a dweeb?
I have not been in any other aircraft in AH2 that exhibits this behavior...but again I dont profess to be any sort of expert.
Could I get some opinions out there?
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I forgot to add that I do not use Combat Trim nor the Stall Limiter.
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Hrm... I, too, am no expert, but I have done well in the Ki, and enjoy flying it.
I have not experienced this problem. You might check the stick mapping and click "advanced" and see if your controls are spiking (and throwing it into invisible stalls).
Usually that plane glides on rails for me.
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Well Krusty you are definately a better pilot than I am. I will check my joystick to see if its spiking, but I doubt it is since no other plan exhibits this performance degredation like what I see in the 84.
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That's debatable...
Are you sure you're not just snap-stalling? You can do the same with the 190 at almost all speeds. It does that because the elevator authority is very good at almost all speeds.
Usually, though, that requires rapid full-deflection pulls, and you described something different.
When in doubt, get it on film.
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KI has a mean snap stall that takes a lot of training to get use to. Practice stall fighting it for a few months and see if that don't help.
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One thing that might cause this problem is that I move my elevator trim to max elevation anytime I need to pull back on the stick. Do you guys think that is contributing to this? It seems to help me all the time in my turning ability....so I would hate to get rid of that technique.
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I wouldn't recommend that, personally. Try it without doing that.
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btw, what causes a "snap stall" anyhow?
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Rapidly exceed the AOA, the wing stalls because air is disrupted, and because the air is disrupted the other wing swings around really fast, often flipping you over on your side or upside down.
EDIT: Something like that.
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KI-84 has an odd snap to it. It's a great plane however and is what I started in (I prefer the 109f4 and 109G2 now, do try them, they are closer to the KI84 then most think).
Here is a couple fun KI-84 films:
KI-84 (.ahf) (http://www.furballers.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3)
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I would go ahead and use combat trim. I found that if your not in the DA in most birds its ok to go ahead and use it. I fly with combat trim and da with it off in the 109's and p38. Just something else to think about in the middle of a fight that doesn't give you that much if advantage.
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Originally posted by Karash
One thing that might cause this problem is that I move my elevator trim to max elevation anytime I need to pull back on the stick. Do you guys think that is contributing to this? It seems to help me all the time in my turning ability....so I would hate to get rid of that technique.
Turning trim on and off is still an on going debate. Some says it works, others that all it does is not force you to pull all the way back on the stick. I'm of the school that you gain no significant advantage from manual trim. HTC himself commented that it won't help with turn rate.
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Originally posted by Karash
One thing that might cause this problem is that I move my elevator trim to max elevation anytime I need to pull back on the stick. Do you guys think that is contributing to this? It seems to help me all the time in my turning ability....so I would hate to get rid of that technique.
Sounds like you're getting into a snap roll due to an accelerated stall. Try adjusting your stick scaling some. Also, turn your stall buzzer sound all the way to 100% and learn to listen to it so you'll know when you're riding the edge of an accelerated stall.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Karash
btw, what causes a "snap stall" anyhow?
It's actually called a snap-roll.
When you stall one of a few things can happen.
If the wing opposite the direction of engine torque stalls you'll typically go into a flat spin. This happens because you're trying to drop that wing, probably to bank and turn at stall speed. At that low a speed engine torque won't allow you to drop the wing, thus it stalls and the other keeps coming around causing the spin.
The opposite of this is a snap-roll. If you're begining to drop the wing to the side of engine torque at to low a speed, engine torque will effectively help drop that stalled wing for you but much faster than you anticipated because the other non-stalled wing keeps coming helping to accelerate the effect.
The final regular stall happens when you're nose high and stall both wings. The nose will dip and the plane will begin to spin in the direction of engine torque nose down until it gains enough airflow over the wings for you to re-gain control.
In any spin recovery consists of cutting throttle, ruddering hard in the direction opposite the spin, pushing the nose down and recovering from the dive once the plane stops spinning.
Recovery can be difficult at times and, as most stall fights happen on the deck this is a common cause of augering when in one but learning to walk that fine edge of an unrecoverable stall while out-manouvering an opponent is one of the most rewarding types of fighting in my opinion.
I also found this tidbit at: http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/stall_spin.html
Many pilots believe that an airplane won't stall until it reaches the stall speed (Vs) published in the POH. Stalls and spins both result from a disruption of airflow over the wing. It is important for all pilots to know that a stall or spin can occur at ANY airspeed and at any attitude. If the wing reaches its critical angle of attack, it will stall. A spin will result when one wing has a lower coefficient of lift than the other.
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Might wanna tell Wilbuz , he doesn't seem to aware of that
little glitch .
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Hi Karash!
I haven't noticed anything strange with my 84 since my little AH break; it still seems one of the most stable planes in the game. I do, however, fly with stall limiter. :)
My guess is that it has something to do with your stick settings. Maybe the sensitivity is set too high, and the plane isn't liking (what it sees as) aggressive control input?
Oh, and I never bothered with the trim thing either. As far as I am aware, you'll get the same effect just pulling back all the way on the stick. Plus, it's one more thing to worry about in the middle of a fight, which is never good.
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KI-84 is a bloody roflcopter.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Turning trim on and off is still an on going debate. Some says it works, others that all it does is not force you to pull all the way back on the stick. I'm of the school that you gain no significant advantage from manual trim. HTC himself commented that it won't help with turn rate.
It makes the difference if time is taken to learn and adapt it.Pulling way back on the joystick usually leads to blacking out and loss of SA as well as loss of energy.IMHO anyone who says it won't help you is just telling you that so you don't use like they are!
Karash, when i take up a Ki-84 i always go 50% fuel.Always burn the Center fuel tank down first in the Ki-84, this causes it to be a whole different bird.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Karash, when i take up a Ki-84 i always go 50% fuel.Always burn the Center fuel tank down first in the Ki-84, this causes it to be a whole different bird.
That's because the majority of the fuel is in the center tank... The reason it flies better is because you only have 15 minutes flight time left (not enough for me).
I regularly take 75% internal (or 50% and DTs) and have no problems out turning other craft. I leave it on auto fuel tank selection.
Just a differing opinion on the matter.
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I tried last night flying with both Combat Trim and the Stall Limiter enabled...and to be honest I cannot see how you guys do it :). The Ki-84 is very sluggish with these features turned on. I do a lot of stall fighting and know what it is, however I never thought about the different types of stalls in regards to what wing you push down.
Some great information on this thread and I thank those pilots for contributing.
Btw Engine, you dont count if you use both CT and Stall Limiter getting the sick kills that you do. !
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Originally posted by FX1
I would go ahead and use combat trim. I found that if your not in the DA in most birds its ok to go ahead and use it. I fly with combat trim and da with it off in the 109's and p38. Just something else to think about in the middle of a fight that doesn't give you that much if advantage.
Do NOT fly the Ki-84 with Combat Trim enabled. Combat Trim is the reason some KI-84 players can't pull a blackout at 350mph as Combat Trim is trimming nose down, making the already heavy elevators nearly unresponsive for a pull up.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Do NOT fly the Ki-84 with Combat Trim enabled. Combat Trim is the reason some KI-84 players can't pull a blackout at 350mph as Combat Trim is trimming nose down, making the already heavy elevators nearly unresponsive for a pull up.
Ahaaaaa... I did not know that. Thanks!
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Pulling way back on the joystick usually leads to blacking out and loss of SA as well as loss of energy.
Blackouts are a function of G forces, and whether you're doing 5Gs from pulling the stick back or by half stick/half trim, you're still doing 5Gs.
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Originally posted by Engine
Ahaaaaa... I did not know that. Thanks!
Like I stated, I dont see HOW you fly the 84 the way you do with CT on :)
Elevator response is soooo crappy with CT enabled (imo)
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I added pots to my hotas for elevator, rudder, and aileron trim. I have not used Combat Trim for over seven months now. It takes some getting used to for sure but well worth the effort.
Analog trim is way more precise than digital (button) trim; both of which give you far more control over your aircraft than CT. I can trim my plane on final approach and land without even touching the stick (just a little throttle adjustment). I have on a number of occasions touched down completely blacked out from a pilot wound to find my plane sitting nicely on the runway with the engine still running. I also find that when I compress a plane in a dive to the point where no inputs work, I can usually analog trim my way out of that situation.
I personally feel Combat Trim is something you should ween yourself off of. IMHO of course. I used CT for over ten years and I would never go back to it at this point.
-hb
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Originally posted by Karash
Like I stated, I dont see HOW you fly the 84 the way you do with CT on :)
Elevator response is soooo crappy with CT enabled (imo)
I don't really know either. I get the majority of my kills by slowly building energy while people waste theirs, so I'm using a lot of vertical and flying at low-to-mid speeds where the Ki excels and the sluggishness of 300+ turning isn't apparent.
From all the testimonials, I guess I really should dump the CT. But every time I've tried I find it too unwieldy and my hands too busy dealing with trim to work the plane. So I just go back to CT in an hour or two. :)
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I mostly just let it be out of trim, unless it is way out of trim. I'd rather be able to break into a diving P-51 and be a bit out of trim than to be stuck in the mud and dead, but nicely trimmed for it.
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Map combat trim to a button on your stick. Toggle it on then off.
It's like setting trim to pre-determined tables for your current speed. You could write these tables down yourself, but the game does it for you (built into combat trim).
So just toggle it and turn it off, so it sets them, then leaves them.
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Originally posted by Engine
I don't really know either. I get the majority of my kills by slowly building energy while people waste theirs, so I'm using a lot of vertical and flying at low-to-mid speeds where the Ki excels and the sluggishness of 300+ turning isn't apparent.
From all the testimonials, I guess I really should dump the CT. But every time I've tried I find it too unwieldy and my hands too busy dealing with trim to work the plane. So I just go back to CT in an hour or two. :)
I think its a matter of your HOTAS setup to be honest. If you dont have analog sliders for it on your throttle its not practical. I have these on my x52 setup and they work great.
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I'm still using an MS Force Feedback2, which I still consider one of the best twisty-rudder sticks ever. Worked well in Jumpgate. ;)
I do have one button free, so I'll try Krusty's suggestion and toggle it and see what happens. You think I'll really just see a benefit in the high-speed maneuvering?
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Not really. What it does is just makes it easier to keep your nose where you want it, at any given speed. Get ready to take a shot, toggle the combat trim, and the nose might jump a bit, then aim after you've trimmed (don't trim the second you're about to fire, you don't want to rush it), and it just helps you not fight the stick so much when you want more control.
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
I added pots to my hotas for elevator, rudder, and aileron trim. I have not used Combat Trim for over seven months now. It takes some getting used to for sure but well worth the effort.
Analog trim is way more precise than digital (button) trim; both of which give you far more control over your aircraft than CT. I can trim my plane on final approach and land without even touching the stick (just a little throttle adjustment). I have on a number of occasions touched down completely blacked out from a pilot wound to find my plane sitting nicely on the runway with the engine still running. I also find that when I compress a plane in a dive to the point where no inputs work, I can usually analog trim my way out of that situation.
I personally feel Combat Trim is something you should ween yourself off of. IMHO of course. I used CT for over ten years and I would never go back to it at this point.
-hb
Be aware that trimming the pots on your stick is not the same as trimming the flight surfaces of your plane. Some players, especially the ones that use the Cougar HOTAS controls, can program some of the axis on their setup for trimming their plane.
When I was still at CH Products many years ago and customers would call and ask if they could use their joystick trim dials for trimming their aircraft I would always recommend that they do not use them that way since they wouldn't be trimming their plane but just their joystick.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Karnak
I mostly just let it be out of trim, unless it is way out of trim. I'd rather be able to break into a diving P-51 and be a bit out of trim than to be stuck in the mud and dead, but nicely trimmed for it.
Here here! I think this is exactly the way to go about weening yourself off of CT. Actually, after you fly a while with analog trim, you begin to get more and more used to trimming the plane and you work the elevator trim knob much like moving the stick itself so that you keep the plane in trim as you move your stick; all as part of the same motion.
Having a radio control background, constantly trimming my airplane is pretty much second nature to me so that I'm hardly even aware that I'm doing it. All these years, I've never had a hotas with analog trim knobs on it until now so I had to just get used to CT which I always thought was pretty weird. It's good to be home again.
The other added benefit is I don't have to do anything different when I fly MSFS or IL2 as they don't have anything like CT.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Map combat trim to a button on your stick. Toggle it on then off.
It's like setting trim to pre-determined tables for your current speed. You could write these tables down yourself, but the game does it for you (built into combat trim).
So just toggle it and turn it off, so it sets them, then leaves them.
I used to have toggle trim as a stick function, but if you hit auto pilot it automatically toggles it for you.
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Auto pilot only trims you level. If you can't spare a moment to level out, the toggle trim is quite handy. Also, you're a sitting duck for a couple of seconds while you do this. I use it in combat (leave it off for turn fighting, because it dulls elevator inputs, toggle it on for the kill shot), and can't hit auto pilot in the middle of a fight.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Be aware that trimming the pots on your stick is not the same as trimming the flight surfaces of your plane. Some players, especially the ones that use the Cougar HOTAS controls, can program some of the axis on their setup for trimming their plane.
When I was still at CH Products many years ago and customers would call and ask if they could use their joystick trim dials for trimming their aircraft I would always recommend that they do not use them that way since they wouldn't be trimming their plane but just their joystick.
ack-ack
I am NOT using the "trim wheels" on my stick. I added pots (uses a second joystick circuit) so that I set them up in Aces High as "elevator trim", "aileron trim", and "rudder trim" axes. I NEVER touch those wheels you speak of as they just throw my calibration off.
Thanks for that clarification.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Auto pilot only trims you level. If you can't spare a moment to level out, the toggle trim is quite handy. Also, you're a sitting duck for a couple of seconds while you do this. I use it in combat (leave it off for turn fighting, because it dulls elevator inputs, toggle it on for the kill shot), and can't hit auto pilot in the middle of a fight.
why would you turn off your trim in the middle of a fight?
The only time i am not using trim is when i am not in combat.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
why would you turn off your trim in the middle of a fight?
The only time i am not using trim is when i am not in combat.
Because I like to get full manuverability out of my Ki-84 and having Combat Trim enabled means that I cannot do so. It make sme die less to leave it disabled.
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^--- what he said
OFF: Manuver, turn, close in
ON: aim, lead, take a shot
OFF again: target breaks hard I need all of my manuvering control again
ON again: target is once again in front of me
OFF again: new con dives in on my six from very high, I need all my elevators to break into him
and so on...
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I just leave mine off all the time. Once you fly a few months, manually trimming your bird isnt so much of a hassle. However, I do take your point about gun accuracy seriously...its probably why I miss so much.
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
I am NOT using the "trim wheels" on my stick. I added pots (uses a second joystick circuit) so that I set them up in Aces High as "elevator trim", "aileron trim", and "rudder trim" axes. I NEVER touch those wheels you speak of as they just throw my calibration off.
Thanks for that clarification.
Oh..okay, you added some new axis to your controllers. When you said "pots" I thought you were referring to the trim wheels on the stick. Sorry for the confusion.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
why would you turn off your trim in the middle of a fight?
The only time i am not using trim is when i am not in combat.
For the Ki-84, this is exactly backwards.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Krusty
^--- what he said
OFF: Manuver, turn, close in
ON: aim, lead, take a shot
OFF again: target breaks hard I need all of my manuvering control again
ON again: target is once again in front of me
OFF again: new con dives in on my six from very high, I need all my elevators to break into him
and so on...
Or just use trim full time like the real pilots did and still do.All that turnin off & on makes for LOW SA.
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Originally posted by Widewing
For the Ki-84, this is exactly backwards.
Let me amplify this in case some are confused. For the Ki-84:
Use combat trim for all normal flying. Turn it off and trim manually for combat. Simply adjust the trim so that a small amount of forward stick pressure is needed to fly level at 300 mph. This will allow you to pull to blackout at moderate to high speeds and not interfere with maneuver combat at low speeds. Set aileron and rudder trim to neutral.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
All that turnin off & on makes for LOW SA.
Not really. Doesn't affect my SA at all. It's a button on my stick, under my thumb. I can hit it while still looking around with hat.
Also I don't have a fancy stick setup. If I did I'd map 3 axis to trim alone. Since I only have 4 axis total, I use combat trim (much faster than hitting and holding K and I and J and L and M and , .
Especially in the middle of a fight.
EDIT: That's just how I do it. I'm not saying you should do it that way, just explaining what I do.
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Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: That's just how I do it. I'm not saying you should do it that way, just explaining what I do.
yea i kinda figured that.
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Back to the subject:
I'm not entirely sure what Karash is experiencing, but if it is what I think it is, then it's normal. The problem lies in the fact that the Ki-84 has a very low speed limit permitted for the first notch of flaps, and it will retract over 165 or 170mph IAS or something like that.
Now, the Ki-84 is certainly a very agile plane, but frankly it is nothing special if the flaps aren't in use. As a matter of fact, there is a small speed margin of about 30mph, between about 170mph IAS to 200mph IAS, where the plane is extremely vulnerable to destabilization due to low speed and high AoA, but cannot use the flaps yet. Some veteran pilots say they don't notice that much of a problem, but for many people this speed range is a very dangerous point in which the Ki-84 is momentarily hindered in maneuvering - until finally the speed drops low enough to deploy the first notch of combat flaps.
This is most noticeable when you are duelling a competitive pilot in perhaps a Spitfire or a N1K2.
The Ki-84 with flaps out, is very vesatile, able to match the turning radius of the Spitfire or the N1K toe-to-toe with much more stable handling. As a matter of fact the Ki-84 turns better than the N1K2 and most Spitfires, barring the Spit5 and the Spit1 in pure radius. The problem is when the engagement starts out with some speed, in an attempt to enter tight-looping verticals with lots of rudder use, often leading to a rolling scissors situation.
The enemy N1K2 or Spitfire, in defense, enters a very tight looping turn in the vertical and the Ki-84 pilot is often compelled to follow it. What happens is the Spitfire or the N1K2 goes tightly vertical, and then easily "snaps" downward using the gravity and momentum, entering a full circle pattern of flight.
The Ki-84 tries to follow it, but when he has reached the apex of the tight loop his speed is still not low enough to deploy the flaps. Therefore, the Ki-84 is momentarily destabilized, and refuses any pitch input from the stick - which attempt if enforced, will cause roll axis destabilization that 'wallows' the plane. Therefore, the pilot has no choice but to leave the Ki-84 hovering for a very short time until the speed drops down 170mph IAS, and then he can pull the flaps out and immediately "snap" downwards to continue the loop.
Unfortunately, that split-second of a delay is enough to lose some serious ground in the tight maneuvering contest, and by the time the Ki-84 has flaps out and starts moving downward, the Spit or the N1K is already climbing back up towards your tail.
Also, even if you didn't lose enough ground to lose the fight outright, when you are coming down from the apex of the climb your speed rises again, and the flaps will retract. This often makes it impossible to keep the angle necessary to stay behind the Spitfire or the N1K, as the Spit/N1K will start going up in another loop, but your Ki-84 cannot pull enough pitch angle to stay in an advantageous position. This is perhaps the one weakness which pilots can fully exploit to defeat the Ki-84 in a similarly maneuvering plane.
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My advice is, if you will go into an engagement against a Spitfire or a N1K, then commit yourself only when the speed is sufficiently low. If you are chasing a Spitfire or a N1K that is running away at - let's say - about 350mph TAS, then this might bring out the situation as described above, where the Spit/N1K will enter a tight maneuvering evasive, but the Ki-84 cannot follow it directly due to flaps not being able to deploy yet.
In this case, use your E and 'corner' the enemy some more, until he starts resorting to very tight turns and low speeds. Once you are confident that the ensuing maneuvering contest will rarely put your speed above 200mph IAS, then commit yourself, dump all unnecessary speed, and let those flaps rock the world. Once you are in the 'flaps' domain, nothing short of the Hurricane or a Zero can defeat you in it. Just becareful of those 'similar' looking situations which puts you in and out of that domain.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
It makes the difference if time is taken to learn and adapt it.Pulling way back on the joystick usually leads to blacking out and loss of SA as well as loss of energy.IMHO anyone who says it won't help you is just telling you that so you don't use like they are!
Originally posted by hitech
The only time trim would help your turn rate is if your stick is already full back, and you still need more elevator. This would only be the case at higher speeds in some planes where you can not exert enof stick force.
So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid
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Originally posted by SuperDud
So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid
That may be how things werk in his world or in your world for that matter, but that's not how they werk in mine.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Also, even if you didn't lose enough ground to lose the fight outright, when you are coming down from the apex of the climb your speed rises again, and the flaps will retract. This often makes it impossible to keep the angle necessary to stay behind the Spitfire or the N1K, as the Spit/N1K will start going up in another loop, but your Ki-84 cannot pull enough pitch angle to stay in an advantageous position. This is perhaps the one weakness which pilots can fully exploit to defeat the Ki-84 in a similarly maneuvering plane.
I'm not an expert Ki-84 pilot by any means but I drop throttle on the way down with flaps deployed, raising flaps and throttling back to full at the bottom for the ride up, then deploy flaps again at the top to bring me over.
This developed as a reaction to the Ki-84's propensity to compress. When I first started flying it I got used to dropping throttle in any sort of dive. When I realized how much better a plane it was with flaps I added them, but never got rid of the reduced dive throttle.
It keeps you pretty busy flying a Ki-84 but it's part of what makes flying one so fun.
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1) Dont play with your trim
2) Leave combat trim alone unless you are doing 50mph at the top of a look
3) #1 and #2 are useless at 250mph (one more reson to leave them alone)
4) You are using the Ki the worst possible way. 250mph is the worst speed for that bird. Be fast or be slow 150mph or less so flaps can come out.
5) Dont turn until flaps are out. Use the vertical. Thats what it can do best.
Best thing to do in the Ki, use the vert to slow down your oponent. Once speeds drop below 200 and preferable around 150 the Ki will pwn any plane.
And no, I have not experienced what you see so maybe you are just pulling to mach for that bird?
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I'm not an expert Ki-84 pilot by any means but I drop throttle on the way down with flaps deployed, raising flaps and throttling back to full at the bottom for the ride up, then deploy flaps again at the top to bring me over.
This developed as a reaction to the Ki-84's propensity to compress. When I first started flying it I got used to dropping throttle in any sort of dive. When I realized how much better a plane it was with flaps I added them, but never got rid of the reduced dive throttle.
It keeps you pretty busy flying a Ki-84 but it's part of what makes flying one so fun.
Neither am I. But being mediocre at best does have its advantages, since I can offer viewpoints more close to the everyday troubles of average pilots, rather than the "l33T" guys who has no problems in whatever they fly.
I've actually came up with a theory concerning the Ki-84 in the past, that describes why some veterans do not seem to realize the afore mentioned problems I've wrote down.
My theory is that it has to do with the basic judgement in speeds and situations. Experienced veterans have a very accurate sense of judging the conditions of the fight, and are talented enough to immediately force an action when they see the opportunity is right, without hesitation. However, the average pilots are not as quick in judgement, and needs a lot of assurance before committing himself to a duel. The Ki-84 is a very excellent maneuvering plane, but at the same time boasts quite decent speeds as an E fighter as well. Its top speed down at deck is 344mph, which is on par with the P-38L.
Now, what happens is, when the veterans engage in a knife-fight against Spits or N1Ks or such, they do not hesitate to dump all unnecessary speed and immediately enter the realm of flap fluttering contests. They bypass the critical "danger margin" between 170~200mph and immediately force the enemy Spit or N1K into ultra-low speed fights that range between 90~150mph.
However, average pilots can't do that. There is always a certain temptation to conserve some amount of E, and this is because they aren't confident enough to believe they can defeat anything the enemy Spit or N1K2 throws at him. Therefore, they will often hesiatate, and will enter the fight in a more conserving manner. The end-result is that they have to fight through that 170~200mph "danger zone" in the Ki-84.
In this case, it's not surprising why the better pilots do not notice this problem exists, whereas more average guys like me or Karash definately notice a handling problem before the Ki can deploy flaps.
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Interesting observation Kweassa and probably very close to the truth.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
That may be how things werk in his world or in your world for that matter, but that's not how they werk in mine.
If you're flying Aces High you're in HTCs world.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Once you are in the 'flaps' domain, nothing short of the Hurricane or a Zero can defeat you in it. Just becareful of those 'similar' looking situations which puts you in and out of that domain.
Have you actually done any dueling in the Ki-84 lately?
Add to your list the following: Spit5, Spit8, Spit9, N1K2-J, Bf 109F-4, Bf 109E and any F4U.
Other aircraft that turn tighter (much tighter) than the Ki-84, but are inferior in power are the FM-2, SBD and TBM. The secret to these three is not to fly them too far into a stall. You must understand that the smallest circle is not usually the fastest way around a circle. Moreover, pushing too far into stall shake usually increases turn radius while decreasing turn rate.
You will find me in the LWAs flying TBMs, SBDs and Bostons as fighters. There's nothing more entertaining than watching some over-confident pilot head your way, eager for the easy kill, only to be fluttering to the ground within 60 seconds.
I like the Ki-84. It's an excellent fighter within the realm it's happy in. It is not a superfighter by any stretch. Meet an equally skilled pilot in a better plane (and there are plenty that are better) and it is in trouble. Meet a better pilot in an inferior plane and it's still in trouble.
I know you believe the machine is the most important factor. It is important, but it's not as important as skills and talent. Machines don't make decisions. Machines don't formulate tactics. Machines are tools and a lousy craftsman with the best tools still can't build anything worth a damn.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I know you believe the machine is the most important factor. It is important, but it's not as important as skills and talent. Machines don't make decisions. Machines don't formulate tactics. Machines are tools and a lousy craftsman with the best tools still can't build anything worth a damn.
Widewing
Now THAT is sig material :aok
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I agree with Widewing's list of fighters that turn tighter, though it is very close between some of them.
What I have found though is that the Ki-84 can simply out power most of them in the vertical. The engines in the Spit v, Bf109E and F and in things like the SBD and TBM simply cannot match the engine in the Ki-84 and it allows the Ki-84 to dictate the fight if flown intelligently.
The pilot is the major factor.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
If you're flying Aces High you're in HTCs world.
That doesn't mean things goes exactly as he says.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
That doesn't mean things goes exactly as he says.
:huh
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Karash, I believe your problem MAY lie in the fact that you trim your plane to full possitive possition when ever you engage in a tunrfight or go a bit slower (if I understood you correct).
Triming doesn't do anything in real life (nor in AH) but to remove stick forces. This is why combat trim is bad a high speeds as it tries to keep the plane at that speed, meaning you will just keep going faster and the plane will keep trimming down when you really want help fighting the elevator forces by trimming up.
What is important during a fight is that it is trimmed at the speed you are flying at, otherwise bringing the stick to the center won't make the plane fly level, it will nose up or down (depening on wether trim is set to a lower speed or a higher speed). This makes aiming difficult.
When you set teh trim to fully possitive before entering a fight, you only make you stick deflections more sensitive.
Imagine this, you have a stick that you can move 30 points back, and 30 points forward...
Ok hold on, gotto get to work, will continue this shortly...
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...imagine this...
You have a joystick you can move a certain number of points, in this case 60. 30 forward and 30 back.
If you trim you plane to fully possitive (nose up trimming for low speeds) and you fly ANY faster then that speed your plane will want to nose up when you have you stick centered. That means that you only have to move the stick back say, 20 points in order for the plane to give full elevator deflection. That means you've just removed 33% of your sensitivity, your fine adjustments. This will make you snapstall far easier. I am GUESSING this is what makes you snapstall. An educated guess I should say.
I've never experienced the mentioned problem in the Ki84. Of course it DOES snapstall easily, there is a very fine line between controlled flight and snapstalling in it. In that way it reminds you a whole lot of the 190.
I never use combat trim my self. However, it will NOT make you turn either better or worse (in ANY plane) UNLESS you are flying too fast to be able to pull up without using manual trim. It does NOT make your plane turn any better in low speeds, it merely takes the forces of the stick. Anything you may "feel" makes it a better turner without combat trim is just that, a feeling.
Important to mention is that combat trim is ment for a plane without anything else down, ie flaps or gear.
The thing I don't like about CT (part from removing one aspect of realism) is that once you go into very slow flight, the CT will try and trim you up a little bit more thus effectivly decreasing my "sensitivity points" further, making it harder to aim and harder to stay in controlled flight without snapstalling.
Not sure if I made my self clear, so ask away if there was something anyone didn't understand.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid
Correct. Neither in real life nor in AH.
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Some will never believe Wilbus
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Probarly not...
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Some will never believe Wilbus
or they just don't give a d..............
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
or they just don't give a d..............
WOW, you rebel you! Any luck on becoming a trainer yet? Oh wait, wouldn't caring be part of what it takes to be a trainer? No wonder you weren't considered.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Dee Dee Dee
Ride that ded horse ride it.You weren't sayin that when i was helpin you....
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nevermind. I had something else written but this forum isn't the place for a purse fight. I'm done.
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Karash, if I were you, I'd stick with Wilbus' advices. He's probably the best stick around in a Ki84, believe him.
I fly it a lot, too, with CT enabled (no SL) and I never experienced the troubles you're reporting. Yes, the plane is sensible to snaproll, but once you get used to it, you shouldn't be snaprolling it much.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
or they just don't give a d..............
I thought that was why were are here, in the help forum, to listen and give/take advices.
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Excellent advise in here, and I appreciate all the comments. Looking back I think I do try to ride out that danger zone as I hate getting to slow in a 2v2 or 3v3 situation. When I am dueling someone I am usually quick to dump my E and go for flaps...
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I didn't read all the way thru but it sounds like...as some others did touch on, you need to adjust your stick scaling on all axies and adjust your stick deadband and dampening on each axis as well.
I think AKAK had a screenie of an example of this. use CT and I only go manual trim in the slowest tightest of fights.
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I've been really enjoying the Ki84 recently. It is a very interesting bird. Wish I had been filming yesterday when a mission of b17's and p51's were attacking a base at about 11k. Flamed a bomber head on, pulled over the top to take another before actively engaging the escorts. Ended up in a valley vs 2 mustangs. I would of had both of them and escaped if 2 more hadn't shown up to make it 4v1. Still got two of them before biting it.
The Ki84 seems to be able to stand up to a beating a little better than I expect it to. PW's seem common though.
I think I've experienced something similar to what the original post is mentioning and the explanation of only one wing stalling makes sense. Ease up on the turn a bit and try to chop throttle for a sec before entering the turn.
First time up in a ki84 I augered trying to enter the first fight I found. I've been a bit more careful about my split-s's and dive speeds since then!
:aok
Any resident ki84 aces or trainers mind flying with me a bit and giving some pointers?
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I'll hopefully start flying again soon, been on another one of my long brakes.
Will gladly fly some when I get back in it, just havent' felt like flying for a couple of months, part because it's summer now and much of my time i spent outside.
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I have been away for about a month as well. Got too many things going on in RL, but hope to be back in the saddle of my Frank soon. This thread has helped me a lot in understanding trim in relation to AH2.
Thanks to all that have contributed :)
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Karash..are u using a Logitech stick?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
I'll hopefully start flying again soon, been on another one of my long brakes.
Wooo ooooh!!!!! The Wil will be back! :) Too bad I'll be flying few this month :(
Bongaroo, welcome in the club, you'll love the Ki84.
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Originally posted by dedalos
1) Don't play with your trim
2) Leave combat trim alone unless you are doing 50mph at the top of a loop
3) #1 and #2 are useless at 250mph (one more reason to leave them alone)
4) You are using the Ki the worst possible way. 250mph is the worst speed for that bird. Be fast or be slow 150mph or less so flaps can come out.
5) Don't turn until flaps are out. Use the vertical. Thats what it can do best.
Best thing to do in the Ki, use the vert to slow down your opponent. Once speeds drop below 200 and preferable around 150 the Ki will pwn any plane.
And no, I have not experienced what you see so maybe you are just pulling too much for that bird?
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Wheee! Hey Gian :)
Well it won't be much or any flying for me this month I think, maybe and hopefully some, I sure miss it and all good friends.
Saving for a new computer so I can get rid of the friggen suttering and low FPS.
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I hope you'll be able to be online soon. Looking forward to meet you again, my friend. :)
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As do I bro!