Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Masherbrum on May 02, 2007, 03:26:48 PM
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WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) -- A plucky Jack Russell terrier named George saved five children from two marauding pit bulls, but was so severely mauled in the fight that it had to be put down, its owner said Wednesday.
George was playing with the group of children as they returned home from buying sweets at a neighborhood shop in the small North Island town of Manaia last Sunday when the two pit bulls appeared and lunged toward them, Allan Gay said.
"George was brave -- he took them on and he's not even a foot high," Gay told The Associated Press. "He jumped in on them, he tried to keep them off.
"If it wasn't for George, those kids would have copped it."
One of the children, Richard Rosewarne, 11, was quoted in the Taranaki Daily News on Wednesday as saying George fought with the pit bulls to keep them off his 4-year-old brother, Darryl.
"George tried to protect us by barking and rushing at them, but they started to bite him -- one on the head and the other on the back," Rosewarne said. "We ran off crying and some people saw what was happening and rescued George."
But George was so badly mauled that a veterinarian had to put him down, Gay said.
South Taranaki District Council official Graham Young said the two pit bulls had been impounded, and likely would be put down because of the attack.
In New Zealand, owners of dogs judged to be too aggressive can be required to have them neutered and dogs involved in attacks are destroyed.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved
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RIP George.
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/280539/0_61_050207_terrier1.jpg)
I have two baseball bats (front door, garage) ready for the first pit bull that I see loose in my neighborhood. Fortunately Ohio has some good vicious dog laws.
955.28 - (A) Subject to divisions (A)(2) and (3) of section 955.261 of the Revised Code, a dog that is chasing or approaching in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, that attempts to bite or otherwise endanger, or that kills or injures a person ..... can be killed at the time of that chasing, approaching, attempt, killing, or injury. If, in attempting to kill such a dog, a person wounds it, he is not liable to prosecution under the penal laws which punish cruelty to animals.
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a .45 would also do the trick :noid
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Originally posted by moneyguy
a .45 would also do the trick :noid
Too worried about hitting my own dog or a neighborhood kid. I save my rounds for human intruders.
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Thats not the worst, last week a lady up north got killed by a couple of dogs (I think they were bull mastiffs).
Most of the country want fighting dogs gotten rid of.
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Sounds like exotic weapons, lawn mowers etc are fair game :D
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
RIP George.
I have two baseball bats (front door, garage) ready for the first pit bull that I see loose in my neighborhood.
good luck with that
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Yep, a lightweight blunt like a baseball bat will only anger them, unless you hit just right, or have enough of a mass advantage to make them fly on impact.
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that's my big reason for not owning a Pit Bull too: Too many sensless attacks on them by Jack Russels. When will people learn that just because a dog looks cute on a sitcom, that doesn't make it an ideal pet.
-Sik
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George :(
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Originally posted by moot
Yep, a lightweight blunt like a baseball bat will only anger them, unless you hit just right, or have enough of a mass advantage to make them fly on impact.
And we're to believe that punching a shark in its nose will make it go away :)
Nah, you hit anything with a baseball bat, it's going to hurt. Unless it's rabid it sure as hell is not sticking around to fight.
The trick of course is hitting it with the baseball bat and not missing and getting yourself killed.
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But if we can’t have Pitt Bulls how else are we to show how tough we are?
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Originally posted by eskimo2
But if we can’t have Pitt Bulls how else are we to show how tough we are?
I say if you want people to think you're a big man, just get yourself a trophy wife instead. A lot more fun and the only person who might get hurt is you :aok
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I get tired of the (forgive me for putting it this way) idiots who intentionally buy vicious fighting dogs to look cool and then totally fail to live up to the responsibility to keep their land sharks under control 24/7. Destroy the dogs and jail the owner for reckless endangerment. One Jack Russell Terrier being forced to do an Old Yeller impersonation is the only thing that prevented a negligent homicide.
For the sake of full disclosure I should mention that I am not happy about the potential of this scenario occuring in our own life. Our neighbor has a psychotic Rotweiler that is keeped penned in his fenced in back yard and which can stand with his front paws on the top of the chainlink fence. While we were fostering a Giant Schnauzer I had to take to walking the dog the long way round the neighborhood so I wouldn't pass the yard and set the dog off (snarling, insane barking, initial attempts to jump over, etc.). We've already had to warn the kids if they ever see Mr. Rotti out on the street to hightail it inside ASAP.
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Originally posted by Vudak
I say if you want people to think you're a big man, just get yourself a trophy wife instead. A lot more fun and the only person who might get hurt is you :aok
:rofl :aok
Eskimo is on to something though. I've not seen a pit bull owner (where I live anyway), that isn't trying to project a look how tough I am image.
Plus I hear people say things like, "It's such a sweet dog it sleeps with our children.":rolleyes:
These same peoples children have rags for clothes. However their parents always seem to have enough money for booze, cigarettes, and $200.00 worth of fireworks on the 4th of July. :huh
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and these two dogs are pit bulls because the owners have papers from the adba and they can trace the dog's lineage back to how many matches the parents won?
there are no more purebred pit bulls left to be had.
like always, these dogs are just scatter bred american stafforshire terriers.
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Vudak, a dog like a pitbull will not give you time to swing more than a few times.. first hand experience. :)
You may hurt it, but most of the time you don't deminish its determination or physical ability enough to make a difference before something like a bat stops being useful. The safest bet is something that either hurts enough to discourage it, or guarantees critical damage, e.g. articulations or eyes put out of service, etc.
A regular bat is too soft for that.
Personaly, I think I'd go with the most powerful tazer I could find.
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Originally posted by moot
Vudak, a dog like a pitbull will not give you time to swing more than a few times.. first hand experience. :)
You may hurt it, but most of the time you don't deminish its determination or physical ability enough to make a difference before something like a bat stops being useful. The safest bet is something that either hurts enough to discourage it, or guarantees critical damage, e.g. articulations or eyes put out of service, etc.
A regular bat is too soft for that.
Personaly, I think I'd go with the most powerful tazer I could find.
I dunno. Americans with baseball bats are like the old Huns with horses :D Taught from a very young age how to swing that thing around - we'll get 'em :)
(This is not a serious argument haha)
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I am not at all suprised about George's response when the kids were in danger. Growing up, I had a Jack Russell Terrior. (my mom still does, 15 years old and still crazy as can be). He may only be a dog that stands 8 inches high, by a foot and a half long, but in his mind, he is a german shepherd and will do anything to protect his pack. I remember as a kid I was playing outside with my dad and Pete (the dog), and a coyote comes walking through my backyard. As soon as Pete saw the thing he darted at it, barking his brains out. The coyote took off in a hurry to say the least. Regardless of size, a little white missile running directly at you will get your heart pumping! lol.....
Way to go Jack russels! Awesome dogs! They may be annoying as hell the first five years (YAP YAP YAP, JUMP, YAP, JUMP HIGHER, YAP), they are the best!
And Seagoon- You said it brotha. I know so many people who have bought pit bulls because it's cool, and just totally neglect to take care of them.
I recently bought an Eastern Blood Line GSD. I understand the responsibility of owning a large aggressive dog, and I make sure that as a puppy, he is around as many people and dogs as possible, so he isn't aggressive (when he shouldn't be) when he is fully grown.
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A friend of mine had to shoot a pit a few years ago. The neighbors two houses down had two, they liked to jump the fences alot. They got into my friends back yard and Mauled their Rottwieler and one of their two labs.
The Rotty who was a sweet dog had to be put down. The lab still has scars on its face.
The owner nor animal control bothered to do anything. My friend has 3 year old daughter.
The next time it happend they shot both pits in his backyard, and the cops wanted to arrest him.
Nor did they want to give the gun back.
Californa law states you can shoot a dangerous animal that is a threat, so in the end he got his firearms back and no charges where filed.
One pit lived. The owner keeps it chained now. Personaly I would have fed it poison by now. By my friend and her hubby are nicer then I am.
I don't have a problem with the Dogs per say, but most pit owners are *******s. Most should be put down with their worthless dogs.
There was a pit wondering around my complex one morning acting aggressive and chassed my dog and I too the door.
By the time I got my Sig and got back outside it was gone. In this case the owner was a hot chick, but thats no exscuse for letting a aggressive dog loose.
Trying to fight a pit with a baseball bat is a mistake, if you have never played with a friendly one and seen how strong they are, you may think thats a good idea, but I wouldnt want to have to deal with one without at least a .45 or .357 pistol. A shotgun would be better.
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A knife works well if your willing to let the dog snatch your arm so you can stick it in his neck. A good friend of mine ended up having to do that when his car broke down and he had to walk to the gas station on a country road.
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Dogs like people come in a lot of varieties and much of their behavior depends how they were raised. I had a terrific Parsons Jack Russell terrier for 15 years but fortunately never had him in any kind of fight, although there was never any doubt he would give his all for his family.
Our neighbor has a female pit bull which she has raised and trained very carefully to be friendly. Have never had a problem with the pit bull (she's about seven years old now). But ... you never want to get any formidable dog excited, particularly if it's with another dog (she has a german shepherd playmate), or worst of all, with several other dogs (the proverbial pack mentality).
It's always a challenge to be sufficiently prepared for a dog attack anywhere. If the dog is large enough or determined enough, and particularly if there is more than one, any target would be fortunate to escape unscathed.
In theory (never had to use it), I've found the most politically acceptable and most unobtrusive defense while taking a walk or hiking is a 4-inch folding knife (Gerber E-Z Out Serrated) with serrated edge (boxcutter). As others have mentioned, with such a short blade I probably would sustain injuries, but if I could get that blade near eyes or throat, the dog would lose.
In more remote terrain, my Marine K-Bar fighting knife with 7-inch blade, partially serrated, is a welcome companion.
If I had to respond from my house to a dog attack on someone else, I'd grab my Springfield XD .45 ACP with 10 rounds and deal with the immediate problem before worrying about any second guessing.
I also have a double-barrel coach shotgun, but I feel safest with the firepower and versatility of that XD .45, particularly in less than optimum light (it has a Glock laser/light mounted).
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It is beyond my comprehension why people just have to have a pitbull. I guess it's a ghetto status symbol. I can honestly say every pitbull owner I have met was pure white trash. You know, the type that would be sporting a rebel flag t-shirt with the sleeves cut off and a mullet to match. It makes them feel like a man or think they have a larger Johnson than they do.
I also shoot any stray I find on my property regardless of the breed.
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NZ allows you to kill the animal while it is on your property without hassle. We had a case a few years back just around the corner from us where pitbull bit a little girl. Luckily the father was nearby, he overpowered the animal (think big islander guy) and was smart enough to know his rights, he slit its throat on the spot.
I believe this dog had been a problem before, so maybe he'd done some research into his rights earlier :)
Anyway, we seem to have a problem at the moment here with these types of dogs:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4044544a6660.html
The death of a Murupara woman following an attack by dogs has invoked horrors of previous menacings and how dangerous breeds can fit into society, writes Review Editor Phil Campbell.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4041837a6442.html
Five people, including two children and an elderly woman, were attacked by dogs in separate incidents in the North Island yesterday.
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Originally posted by rpm
snip
I also shoot any stray I find on my property regardless of the breed.
Me, too. I'm a dog lover, but rabies is a legitimate problem where I live.
Based on my experience, I have to say the most reliable weapon in terms of "one shot one kill" in close range situations is the 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot. Among the dozens of dogs I've shot over the years (including 4 pit bulls) that weapon has been the most consistent in "they dropped without a twitch" results.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
that's my big reason for not owning a Pit Bull too: Too many sensless attacks on them by Jack Russels. When will people learn that just because a dog looks cute on a sitcom, that doesn't make it an ideal pet.
-Sik
Typical response from you.
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Originally posted by culero
Me, too. I'm a dog lover, but rabies is a legitimate problem where I live.
Based on my experience, I have to say the most reliable weapon in terms of "one shot one kill" in close range situations is the 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot. Among the dozens of dogs I've shot over the years (including 4 pit bulls) that weapon has been the most consistent in "they dropped without a twitch" results.
Do you guys make sure they don't at least have a collar? Doesn't seem very neighborly :D
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to the yippy dog!
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Petey was a pit bull...
(http://www.dakotapuppydog.com/images/rascals.jpg)
Stymie, Buckwheat and Alfalfa never had any problems with Petey...
There are no bad dogs... only bad dog owners.
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Its not the breed, its the owner.
I have owned APBT exclusively my whole life. My dogs have never attacked anyone. My female is an excellent judge of character, and if she doesnt like you for ANY reason, neither do I.
My Male is a great family dog, but I will admit he is a bit overprotective when we have male visitors he doesn't know, especially if they are tall or he cant see there eyes(sunglasses, hooded sweatshirts, motorcycle helmets etc.). I simply put him in our room and the problem is solved.
These dogs do excellent when raised as a part of the family, but they do very poorly when neglected or abused. Unfortunately, a loving APBT doesnt sell many papers or get people to tune in for the film at 11.
Generalizations are bad-
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Atoon,
Of all breeds available, why did you choose a Pitt Bull?
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Regardless of the fact that there are good pitbulls out there, I don't see the harm in making it mandatory to neuter/spay each dog until the breed simply is gone. Not like anyone will lose their family pet that way.
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My first was actually my fathers choice, I was only 4-5, couldnt tell ya why other than we got it from one of his buddies. I guess it has just been tradition after that. Plus they were all great dogs, so I never felt the desire to switch.
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Originally posted by culero
I'm a dog lover, but rabies is a legitimate problem where I live.
Same here. I also live in a rural area and people seem to think if they don't want a dog it's fine to turn it loose here. We have packs of wild dogs now. They kill calves and small livestock. I normally use my 8mm Mod98 or my .45.
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It wouldnt bother me to see that breed die out.
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Originally posted by Atoon
Its not the breed, its the owner.
Give me a break, that is nonsense.
They are bred to kill, they don't attack to scare you away. It's their instinct to kill, and anything can trigger it. A domestic argument, 2 kids fighting after school, etc. And once that instinct is triggered, there is no turning back, it's in their blood, and better hope you're not the one in it's path.
Roy thought the same thing, it's not the tiger, it's the owner.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Roy thought the same thing, it's not the tiger, it's the owner.
That right there is the best anti-Pitbull argument I've ever heard.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Give me a break, that is nonsense.
Actually no it isn't.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Actually no it isn't.
Yes it is. You can't have a dog bred with the instinct to kill and be suprised when it does that very thing. My dogs are herders. They may go their entire life without having a chance to round something up. But I won't be suprised one bit if they try to bunch together a flock of geese or something. Instinct is instinct. They give no warning, it just happens. I've seen too many "perfectly friendly and innocent" pit bulls try to tear someone's head off to believe otherwise.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Typical response from you.
actually, Yes. It's about what you can expect. Am I supposed to be offended at your recognition?
-Sik
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Maybe 30 or 40 years ago it was nonsense, but not today. They have been abnormally bred for aggression. If people put the same effort into breeding passivity into them they might be harmless loving pets now.
But, that wouldn't make you think your 3" Johnson is an 8" Johnson now would it?
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Originally posted by Vudak
Regardless of the fact that there are good pitbulls out there, I don't see the harm in making it mandatory to neuter/spay each dog until the breed simply is gone. Not like anyone will lose their family pet that way.
So, I take it you wouldn't see the harm in someone deciding that YOUR pet MUST be spayed or neutered because THEY feel THAT breed has a few examples that are dangerous.
And I don't own a pit bull, nor do I have the desire to.
But what breed is next, after pit bulls? Honestly, a few months back, a local woman was killed by two Great Pyranees. Wasn't the first time for that breed either. Akitas? German Shepherds? Dobermans? So, where do you draw the line?
You don't see the harm in making an entire breed extinct, over the poor behavior of a few examples. That's a very interesting position. It has all sorts of possibilities.
Not directed at anyone in particular:[/I]
Mass hysteria, generalizations, and stereotyping, all in one thread. Not to mention placing ALL blame squarely on a particular breed (could just as easily be a group of another type) without regard to the specific owners and animals involved. Very interesting and enlightening.
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Enlightening? You do know which group of people you're talking to, right?
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Originally posted by rpm
Maybe 30 or 40 years ago it was nonsense, but not today. They have been abnormally bred for aggression. If people put the same effort into breeding passivity into them they might be harmless loving pets now.
But, that wouldn't make you think your 3" Johnson is an 8" Johnson now would it?
I can name a 1/2 dozen breeds that have been screwed up by poor breeding. So, your "pee pee" fixation aside, how many of the other breeds to we make extinct? Before you start advocating the eradication of an entire breed of animals over the actions of a few, you might consider what direction that takes you in. Once things get headed in that direction, it might just get real hard to stop, or change directions.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Enlightening? You do know which group of people you're talking to, right?
Absolutely. Like I said, not anyone in particular. Just interesting and enlightening to see what "comes out" in some situations.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
The next time it happend they shot both pits in his backyard, and the cops wanted to arrest him.
He did the right thing by shooting them.
Originally posted by GtoRA2
One pit lived. The owner keeps it chained now.
Too bad it took this much to learn what was required of them to own the dogs.
IOriginally posted by GtoRA2
don't have a problem with the Dogs per say, but most pit owners are *******s. Most should be put down with their worthless dogs.
:aok :aok
Originally posted by Halo
Dogs like people come in a lot of varieties and much of their behavior depends how they were raised. I had a terrific Parsons Jack Russell terrier for 15 years but fortunately never had him in any kind of fight, although there was never any doubt he would give his all for his family.
Our neighbor has a female pit bull which she has raised and trained very carefully to be friendly. Have never had a problem with the pit bull (she's about seven years old now). But ... you never want to get any formidable dog excited, particularly if it's with another dog
I have 3 dogs, all females, a pit, a heeler, and a miniature dachshund. My pit Mia is the most gentle dog you'll ever meet. She does stay constantly energetic and she does climb fences. The difference between these dogs and mine is how she is raised. She is raised with the proper amount of attention and affection. Unfortunately we can't control what idiots buy dogs, especially dogs that have it in them to be vicious. The owners should be held more accountable for the actions of their dogs due to disregard of their responsibility to their dogs. But what's worse are idiots who blame the dogs and not the owners. I blame people for being stupid because every person has the opportunity to try harder than everyone else to be something, unfortunately animals don't have that choice when they are dependent on a human. I do agree with you on the fact that dogs have the natural instinct to attack or survive, there is no doubt in my mind that is true. That's why it is our responsibility to raise them correctly.
I wish you could all meet our pit, she has nothing but love in her because we love her. The worst thing about owning her and loving her is that if she does get out(we always keep her on a leash when she goes to the bathroom even with a fenced in backyard) we are always afraid that people will automatically assume the worst and might do something stupid, plus in oklahoma pits are put down no matter what if they are caught as strays. That's why we keep a close watch on her and always keep her on a leash. To own this dog, comes responsibility and she's worth it, they all are.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
It wouldnt bother me to see that breed die out.
What's worse is that no matter how many people argue that their pits are the best pet anyone could own, there will always be a negative story out there in which some pit got out and attacked someone. I think this is true with all big dogs, dogs that have the ability to overpower people, but unfortunately pittbulls are getting most of the attention.
I don't breed dogs, nor will i ever. It's unfortunate that there is profit in breeding dogs, because this just creates more to end up in the pound to get euthanized. Mia is due to get spayed in a couple months and if we were to ever lose her, i would be in the market for another pitt. And it's not because i am attached to pittbulls in general(in reality i am attached to miniature schnauzers, had one all through my childhood) but i would do it because pitts deserve a good home too and there are those who will always say that pitts are naturally too ill-tempered to be domesticated and should be eradicated. Adrienne(my girlfriend) and I will continue to prove everyone wrong by raising our pitt right.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I can name a 1/2 dozen breeds that have been screwed up by poor breeding. So, your "pee pee" fixation aside, how many of the other breeds to we make extinct? Before you start advocating the eradication of an entire breed of animals over the actions of a few, you might consider what direction that takes you in. Once things get headed in that direction, it might just get real hard to stop, or change directions.
Yeah, your right. Maybe we should pull a Jurassic Park and resurrect the Velociraptor. That breed was very misunderstood.
(http://www.digital-images.net/Images/Universal/Velociraptor_6001.jpg)
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Excellent reply. A thread about modern domesticated dogs, and your example is a long extinct predatory dinosaur. Go figure.
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I've seen good and bad pit bulls. It really is the owner and not the dog.
Years ago I rented a room from this woman that owned a female pit bull. That dog was the biggest baby you've ever seen. Just raise your voice to it and it would roll over on its back whining and crying. My dog (a German Shorthaired Pointer, male) picked a fight with it one day over food....(both had their own dishes but always tried to each others food. :lol) That pit bull never even tried to fight back. The next day it had a black eye from my dog biting it over it's left eye.
Another time while moon lighting up in Alaska delivering pizzas, I walked around the corner of this apartment building to see a young male pit bull standing there urinating. Just as soon as it saw me it started to growl and bare his teeth. I backed away slowly and as soon as it finished urinating, it started running for me. I tossed the pizza to the dog and fortunately it decided it wanted the pizza more than it wanted me. Meanwhile it's owners were sitting on the porch laughing. Anchorage has a leash law, so I told the owners they could either pay for the pizza, or I could call the police. They chose to pay for the pizza.
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I've owned several different breeds.
Any breed, if not properly trained, can be dangerous in some fashion. (even one of those little ankle biter can cause you some harm).
Owned several Pitbulls.
Properly trained they're pretty much harmless unless someone does something that would set of pretty much any dog.
The breeding of pits has, for maybe the last 30 years, been toward size and attitude. Sadly the aim has been for a BAD attitude.
Originaly breeders PUT DOWN any pit that even offered to bite a human. Now they seem to encourage that behaviour. Yet I've read stories of Pits that were trained in the dog pits to fight and kill other Pits, that were saved by someone and trained to be mellow and NOT fight with other dogs. And now are family dogs for someone.
I must agree with the statement that too many people purchase or obtain a Pitbull for the "I got a big pee pee" type reasons.
Pits are very loving affectionate dogs! Give em plenty of attention and TRAIN em while your doing it and they're very docile and mellow and happy. Further if they start to act too protective you can often control em with just words and quickly get em under control physically and restrain em, or move them somewhere away from the situation.
Chain em outside all the time and only go out to feed em or water em and they will get MEAN!
Pretty sure this holds true for about any dog though!
IMHO Destroying any breed of dog for the behavoiur of only a few SEEMS very much like telling everyone that because a criminal or a mentally unstable person got a weapon and did something terrible ALL people must NEVER again have a weapon. BAN THE BUTTER KNIFE!
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Originally posted by Vudak
Do you guys make sure they don't at least have a collar? Doesn't seem very neighborly :D
Actually, yes. A dog that's wearing a collar gets a close look. If it has a vaccination tag on the collar, or seems obviously well-groomed/cared for, then its judged "not a stray" and gets a pass. Take into context I'm not talking a neighborhood, but an isolated house outside of town.
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Originally posted by rpm
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I also shoot any stray I find on my property regardless of the breed.
Why?
Just cause somones dog might have gotten loose doesnt mean it needs to die.
totally classless act IMO
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Why?
Just cause somones dog might have gotten loose doesnt mean it needs to die.
totally classless act IMO
Tell that to the people in my area who have died from rabies because they were bitten by infected stray dogs. Its a serious problem in south Texas. You may wish to have your family exposed, but I do not.
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Originally posted by culero
Tell that to the people in my area who have died from rabies because they were bitten by infected stray dogs. Its a serious problem in south Texas. You may wish to have your family exposed, but I do not.
Interesting. The local health agencies must not be reporting those human rabies deaths. Seriously, and I'm saying you aren't telling the truth, but rather that data on human rabies death actually isn't being turned in. According to the CDC, deaths from rabies are VERY rare. According to most available data, the only time rabies is fatal these days is when the victim who has been bitten refuses the shots, at least until actual rabies symptoms become evident.
In all recently (10-20 years) reported rabies deaths I've read about, maybe five or so, either the victim refused the shots, or they didn't even know they'd been in contact with an infected animal.
Very odd that there are rabies deaths, apparently numerous, in your area, that don't make at least the medical news, or the news as it goes through wildlife agencies and such. Most of the rabies we have around here is carried by skunks, or the odd bat that comes in contact with humans. And we do have a serious problem with skunks being rabid.
Having grown up in a rural area, I'm no fan of wandering dogs either, as they present several hazards, to humans and livestock.
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Pit Bull is a dangerous, worthless POS ......
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Originally posted by Elfie
I've seen good and bad pit bulls. It really is the owner and not the dog.
Years ago I rented a room from this woman that owned a female pit bull. That dog was the biggest baby you've ever seen. Just raise your voice to it and it would roll over on its back whining and crying. My dog (a German Shorthaired Pointer, male) picked a fight with it one day over food....(both had their own dishes but always tried to each others food. :lol) That pit bull never even tried to fight back. The next day it had a black eye from my dog biting it over it's left eye.
Another time while moon lighting up in Alaska delivering pizzas, I walked around the corner of this apartment building to see a young male pit bull standing there urinating. Just as soon as it saw me it started to growl and bare his teeth. I backed away slowly and as soon as it finished urinating, it started running for me. I tossed the pizza to the dog and fortunately it decided it wanted the pizza more than it wanted me. Meanwhile it's owners were sitting on the porch laughing. Anchorage has a leash law, so I told the owners they could either pay for the pizza, or I could call the police. They chose to pay for the pizza.
Agree. I know and have been longtime friends a family that has pits.
Beleive it or not, The lady that used to babysit my son almost every day for the first few years of his life had a pit.
I knew the dog well and wouldnt even give it a second thought.
The dog loves kids and there was always some kind of wild action going on between family memebers screwing around, fighting etc.
But you could literally do anything to this dog and not get a reaction more then a licked face.
His most dangerous trait was his tail.
More then once I've been caught in the back of the legs by his wagging tail.
Sucker stings like a whip.
ON THE OTHER HAND.
Another member of the family,one of the son and brother of the rest and almost sorry to say a good friend of mine also has two pits. He raised them for protection (from what I have no idea as neither of us any longer live in an area where crime and violent crime in particular is much of a problem)
Any time I went to his house I went with folding knife open and in hand untill I was sure he had the dogs caged. Those dogs I didnt trust.
Funny thing it they didnt seem to like anyone but the pizza delivery man. whom they absolutely loved.
Pits arent the only worrysome dogs. Boxers can be quite bad as well as well as German Shepards.
I had a dog that was attacked by a boxer and I have a regular customer who has made it quite clear that if he ever gets near enough to me. he is going to eat me.
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The pit bull that just attacked a little girl here recently was "the gentlest dog you would ever want to see"
according to the owners who were probly good owners at that... the dog was never beaten and had the run of the house and played with their children.
A little girl came onto their property to look at it while it was playing with the owners daughter in the front yard and it attacked her.
There is something wrong with that breed. It is not only that but it is the fact that they have the potential (strength) to cause great damage. Same for rotts (strength wise).
Face it.. if some new breed was meaner and more aggressive and was in some tough guy movies... most pit and rott owners would switch to the new one... it is image.
I don't say you can't have em but you should be charged for attempted murder if they attack someone.
I have shot about a dozen dogs over the years with everything from a 22 rifle to a 44 mag handgun. In the country if you see 3 dogs running together with no collars... you know they are up to no good. even if one has a collar.. they are pack animals and they will all be up to no good.. They want to kill something and that is all there is to it.
Big, aggressive dogs are just another reason to be armed. A 4" folder is last ditch.. a good concealed carry is better.
lazs
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Interesting. The local health agencies must not be reporting those human rabies deaths.
snip
Here's one of the cases I recall, 40 miles or so from my house:
Patient 1. During August 7-9, a woman from Starr County, Texas, had increasing nervousness, shortness of breath, and difficulty swallowing. On August 9, she was admitted to a local hospital with a diagnosis of panic disorder. During the first 3 hospital days, her temperature fluctuated from 97 F (36 C) to 106 F (41 C). On August 12, rabies was first considered in the differential diagnosis because of aerophobia, hydrophobia, agitation, and incoherence alternating with periods of coherence; a skin biopsy and saliva, serum, and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) specimens were obtained from the patient. An ascending paresis developed, and on August 16 she was transferred to another hospital for a computerized axial tomographic scan of the head; only an old infarct in the left cerebellum was found. After the scan, she had a respiratory arrest that progressed to cardiac arrest; she was resuscitated but did not regain consciousness and died on August 20.
snip
The woman had no known exposure to rabies. She was a native of Texas and had resided all her life in Starr County, where rabies is endemic in dogs and coyotes. She occasionally visited relatives in northern Mexico but had last been there more than 1 year before onset of illness. She had a history of a dog bite at 9 years of age but had no other known animal bites.
Take into context that this is brush country, along the Mexican border, and that all the most common rabies carriers live here (bats, skunks, coyotes, coons, etc). Add to that the fact that not only are stray dogs extremely common, but often pack up and go feral.
Take into account that when I complained about the problem of stray/wild dogs in my area, the county health department asked if I had a gun, and when I said yes recommended that I use it whenever I saw a stray in my area. This isn't Rambo-ism, its just life in south Texas.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
My dogs are herders. They may go their entire life without having a chance to round something up. But I won't be suprised one bit if they try to bunch together a flock of geese or something. Instinct is instinct. They give no warning, it just happens. I've seen too many "perfectly friendly and innocent" pit bulls try to tear someone's head off to believe otherwise.
I've got a Pembrooke Welsh Corgi, the smallest herding breed. Goes nuts when company comes over, settles down after a few minutes... but if anybody (except me) tries to leave the group, he'll nip ankles & calves. It's particularly bad around little, hyper kids.
He also herds my parents pugs, which is damn funny to me. :)
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Virgil, here's another one:
On November 13, a 14-year-old boy residing in Hidalgo County, Texas, was evaluated in a local ED for sore throat and dyspnea. Upper respiratory infection was suspected, and he was released with a prescription for amoxicillin. On November 14, his family noted changes in behavior (alternating hyperactivity and withdrawal). Following an episode of apparent seizure but no loss of consciousness, he was transported to his physician's office and then to the ED where he was admitted for acute central nervous system deterioration.
On admission, he was hyperventilating, incoherent, and hallucinating, and he required suctioning for oral secretions; physical examination findings included fever (104 F {40 C}), tachycardia, and hypotension (blood pressure: 96/46 mm Hg). He was transferred to an intensive-care unit where he was intubated and pharmacologically paralyzed.
The primary diagnosis was meningitis, but encephalitis and brain abscess also were considered; treatment included cefotaxime sodium, metronidazole, and acyclovir. Because of his rapidly deteriorating clinical status, on November 14 he was transferred to a tertiary-care facility where fluctuating fever and cardiovascular instability necessitated treatment with both vasopressors and dilators. On November 16, massive rhabdomyolysis occurred (serum creatinine phosphokinase: 69,000 international units {IU}/L {normal: 12-70 IU/L}), and he developed renal failure requiring dialysis. On November 23, rabies was suspected, and serum and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) were obtained for antibody testing; saliva and a skin biopsy specimen from the nape of the neck also were obtained. The patient died on November 27.
Although the serum and CSF specimens were negative for evidence of rabies, a postmortem skin biopsy specimen (obtained November 28) and saliva samples (obtained November 30) were both positive for rabies virus at state laboratories and CDC. Nucleotide sequence analysis at CDC identified a rabies virus variant associated with Texas coyote/border dogs.
This happened about 10 miles from my house. Note the bit I placed in bold.
Again, its not about being cruel or kill-happy. I love dogs, heck you should note that I am *not* one of the crowd demonizing pitt bulls (even though they and dogfighting are common here, I like pit bulls and don't think they are "bad" at all). I just want to minimize my family's exposure.
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Never said you or your methodology were wrong. Was merely commenting on the fact that the rabies deaths in humans appeared to be under reported.
Also, note that both cases you posted went undiagnosed until long after the onset of the disease, leading one to question the method of exposure or infection.
Again, having grown up in a rural area, and having been forced to deal dogs as a threat to humans and livestock, I'm not saying that killing them is unnecessary. I've been forced to do the same. It was not terribly rare, either.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So, I take it you wouldn't see the harm in someone deciding that YOUR pet MUST be spayed or neutered because THEY feel THAT breed has a few examples that are dangerous.
Considering the growing alternative, being removal of your pet across some line, or its extermination, yes, I'd be ok with it.
But what breed is next, after pit bulls? Honestly, a few months back, a local woman was killed by two Great Pyranees. Wasn't the first time for that breed either. Akitas? German Shepherds? Dobermans? So, where do you draw the line?
I'd say drawing the line at dogs breed to fight is perfectly reasonable, considering having them fight is completely inhumane, and betting they'll supress that instinct their whole lives is a large gamble.
You don't see the harm in making an entire breed extinct, over the poor behavior of a few examples. That's a very interesting position. It has all sorts of possibilities.
No offense, but this seems like a typical "DARE" response right here. "Oh, little Johnny, if you try that pot, you'll turn into a crackpotato." It does have all sorts of possibilities. Not many of them are particularly likely. No one who advocates letting a breed of dogs notoriously well-known for killing people disappear is going to seriously say that Cocker Spaniel's should go too for giving someone stitches now and then.
I think Lazs has the best solution, though. One that will sit real nice with all of you who say "It's the owner, not the breed." Your dog attacks or kills an innocent person, it's like you did the mauling. You go to jail for the exact time you would have had you used your own knife.
Defenses of "Oh, he was such a nice family dog I don't know what happened" aren't going to fly anymore than "Oh, he was such a good father, something just snapped."
So if you want to have a breed that can kill somebody, you'd better be damn sure that you've got it under control. If enforced, I'm not too sure some of you guys harping on how great the breed is will be so eager to buy another one again, but that's just me.
Make it fair. All dog breeds included.
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Responsible owners and breeders of the large breed dogs, especially the working breeds, are diametrically opposed to dog fighting, and breeding/raising dogs with the intent of creating mean or vicious animals.
The problem is GREED. Unscrupulous breeders (the vast majority of whom are NOT professional high quality breeders, but rather opportunists looking to make a profit) are breeding animals improperly, and selling them to people who have no business owning a dog, never mind a large breed working dog. The way you can tell it is the scumbag breeders and NOT the responsible owners and breeders is the general health of the breed. When you get the fools involved, they do not care what dogs they breed, or how they do it, they just crank out puppies. You end up with a large quantity of dogs with genetic health issues like bad hips, weak hearts, mental retardation, sterility, and all the other problems resulting from inbreeding or 'linear" breeding. No responsible breeder will breed a dog known to have ANY genetic predisposition for ANY health issue. The responsible breeders do it because they LOVE the breed and want only the best dogs, and only the best for the breed.
And once again, we have the actions of a very few tainting the whole. I happen to own Rottweilers, and NONE of the owners/breeders I know, and I know a BUNCH, would trade their dogs for the next "in" breed or meaner animals. Having been involved in the rescue of some of them from people who should NEVER own ANY dog I can tell you the dogs became too popular, and like anything else, stupid foolish people became involved. The same exact thing happened to German Shepherds (I like German Shepherds) and to Dobermans before. Fortunately, the "new" and "shine" has worn off of the Rottweilers, and their popularity has begun to wane. Hopefully, it will again reach a point where the dogs will not end up in the hands of fools as they have recently.
So what we have here is some dogs and some breeds being persecuted rather than the low life humans involved being held RESPONSIBLE. Not surprising, considering we live in a time where personal responsibility is mostly non existent.
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Originally posted by culero
Tell that to the people in my area who have died from rabies because they were bitten by infected stray dogs. Its a serious problem in south Texas. You may wish to have your family exposed, but I do not.
Care to share some data?
In an hour of looking I havent been able to find a single peice that supports your claim.
In fact. domesticated animal types seem to be the least of your worries.
As the most recent data I was able to find showed that less then 6% of rabies cases were found in domesticated animal types or all kinds in the entire state of Texass.
And that number has been steadily on the decline
One would have to conclude that the percentage of dogs would be less.
By contrast Nationally largest rabies problem comes from Bats,Foxes Racoons and Skunks. And in Texas in particular its primarily Bats and Fox
The most updated data I've ben able to find showed that in a 14 year span between 1990 and 2004 a whole 47 cases of human death by rabies (46 in the USA mainland 1 in Puerto Rico) in the entire country
thats less then 4 per year in the entire USA (3.3571428 to be Spock like)
As for Texas itself. It seems the last "epedemic" in Texas was in the early 90s (1994 to be exact)
And according to the CDC the last reported case of rabies in a human was
On May 9, 2006
And that was caused by a bat.
If as you say rabies is a serious problem in your area. You might want to notify both your state government and the Center for Disease Control. Because neither of them seem to know about it.
If you can provide and real data proving your case I'll accept it. And admit it
If not I can only conlude you are more then likely either falling victim to media hype. Or shooting dogs not because they are a potential rabies danger or even a danger at all. (the numbers show they arent)
but simply because you can.
in which case I will stand by my original comment
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I can tell you, having "known" him for years, Culero is no indiscriminate killer of animals.
Now, he MAY have some less than perfect information or data, but if he does, he came by it honest, looking for the truth.
There's no need to get testy here, it isn't called for.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Interesting. The local health agencies must not be reporting those human rabies deaths.
they are.
You just have to go back 20+ years to find them LOL
The ones he is reporting
the first was in 1991
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00015547.htm
the second was in 1994
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/professional/MMWRtext/mmwr4414.htm
No offence culero
But I think your paranoia is a bit outdated, overhyped and directed at the wrong species
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culero I would do the same if i were you because i know the danger of strays in the country around livestock. My dad lost a couple calves last year due to either strays or coyotes. For him that is a quite a bit money lost from time invested into breeding and feeding them. Unfortunately shooting strays in the country is necessary.
Drediock,i love dogs to death, but you should really be asking what good is a group of stray dogs in the country? They are going to need to find a food source, if it's not your livestock then it's your garbage cans. With stray groups there is no telling what they are capable of and it is best for all if they are put down.
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All I know is if I had a kid killed by one, the dog would be destroyed, preferably with a blow torch and a pair of pliers, and the owner would find some suffering as well.
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You know, Virgil, I get what you're saying and I'm not saying it's not the owners fault (hell, people could own Crocodiles and not have a problem if they were responsible enough), but I will say:
I live in a town with no sheep, yet Border Collies still herd;
I live in a town with no weasles, yet Jack Russels still burrow;
Etc.
Maybe in fifty years of responsible breeding of the sweetest dogs by the honest professionals you speak of, and Pit Bulls wouldn't be a danger.
But right now, I think you're really reaching saying that the genetics of the breed have nothing to do with it.
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Originally posted by Vudak
You know, Virgil, I think you're really reaching saying that the genetics of the breed have nothing to do with it.
I never said the genetics of the breed were irrelevant. Not once. You're really reaching trying to say that I did. I already said that fools and scumbags were breeding the dogs carelessly and without regard for the results at best, and at worst were intentionally creating bad animals.
However, not ALL examples of ANY of the breeds are affected by the actions of the fools and scumbags. SOME bloodlines are not affected AT ALL. The assumption that the entire breed is ruined, and lost beyond recovery, is ignorant at best, and for the most part foolish and arrogant.
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Originally posted by Vudak
I live in a town with no sheep, yet Border Collies still herd;
I live in a town with no weasles, yet Jack Russels still burrow;
You're absolutely right, the best example that i can present is that my blue heeler has been raised as an inside dog her entire life and has never seen any kind of training in herding cattle. When her and my pit run in the back yard or in the house she is usually nipping at her heels and pushing her against the fence or walls. She has that natural herding instinct, all animals have some kind of instinct. I just wish i could figure out what instincts my pit has, other than eating me out of house and home.
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i apologize in advance to any of our friends here who own pit bulls.
pit bulls are extremely popular in Florida. so i was able to make a rather bizarre observation:
i noticed that more often than not, i find that i dislike people who own pitbulls.
past that, all animals are unpredictable in new situations, surroundings or when exposed to new people, and particularly around children. animals also change temperament as they age.
i would never, ever own a pitbull for residential purposes. beyond their breeding as fighting dogs, and reputation, i think there is bite data supporting the higher rate of bites and higher level of damage per bite incident for pitbulls. not sure tho, but for me it doesn't matter. my mind is made up. there are enough vicious attacks by pitbulls in Florida to convince me that i wouldn't have one. they seem to have a penchant for ripping the faces off children.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I never said the genetics of the breed were irrelevant. Not once. You're really reaching trying to say that I did. I already said that fools and scumbags were breeding the dogs carelessly and without regard for the results at best, and at worst were intentionally creating bad animals.
Sorry, I seem to have gotten you mixed up with the people saying, "It's the owner, not the breed." Ergo, the owner, not the genetics. I can't imagine why I might have taken your comments that way :rolleyes:
However, not ALL examples of ANY of the breeds are affected by the actions of the fools and scumbags. SOME bloodlines are not affected AT ALL. The assumption that the entire breed is ruined, and lost beyond recovery, is ignorant at best, and for the most part foolish and arrogant.
You're right. But in this case, my foolish arrogance will save kids. I can live with that.
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Originally posted by Vudak
You know, Virgil, I get what you're saying and I'm not saying it's not the owners fault (hell, people could own Crocodiles and not have a problem if they were responsible enough), but I will say:
I live in a town with no sheep, yet Border Collies still herd;
I live in a town with no weasles, yet Jack Russels still burrow;
Etc.
Maybe in fifty years of responsible breeding of the sweetest dogs by the honest professionals you speak of, and Pit Bulls wouldn't be a danger.
But right now, I think you're really reaching saying that the genetics of the breed have nothing to do with it.
I would agree genetics certainly does have soemthign to do with it.
By and large I dont think Pits attack more then any other breed.
the problem is that when they do attack they tend to keep attacking and cause devistating damage because of their sheer jaw strength and tendancy to not let go.
"According to research by Karen Delise, the author of "Fatal Dog Attacks: The Stories Behind the Statistics," 21 percent of the 431 fatal dog attacks between 1965 and 2001 were carried out by "pit bull and pit bull-type dogs."
But there is a more telling statistic in the research available on dog attacks, said Ledy VanKavage, an attorney with the ASPCA.
Some 95 percent of the attacks on humans come from dogs that have not been spayed or neutered, and 70 percent of the attacks were committed by unneutered males, she said.
"Legislators should look at the statistics and enact legislation to protect people from vicious dogs of any breed, whether it be Pomeranian or Rottweiler," VanKavage said. "
Some 95 percent of the attacks on humans come from dogs that have not been spayed or neutered, and 70 percent of the attacks were committed by unneutered males, she said.
"Legislators should look at the statistics and enact legislation to protect people from vicious dogs of any breed, whether it be Pomeranian or Rottweiler," VanKavage said.
Some 95 percent of the attacks on humans come from dogs that have not been spayed or neutered, and 70 percent of the attacks were committed by unneutered males, she said.
"Legislators should look at the statistics and enact legislation to protect people from vicious dogs of any breed, whether it be Pomeranian or Rottweiler," VanKavage said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=823394&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=823394&page=1)
"In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:
"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)
The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)
Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.
The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.) "
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite)
now that has to do mostly with fatalities. Yes you are more likely to be killed by a Pit or a Rot.
but from the same site
"A survey by the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta ("CDC") concluded that dogs bite nearly 2% of the U.S. population -- more than 4.7 million people annually. (Sacks JJ, Kresnow M, Houston B. Dog bites: how big a problem? Injury Prev 1996;2:52-4.)
Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. (Weiss HB, Friedman D, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments. JAMA 1998;279:51-53.)
Dog bites send nearly 368,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (1,008 per day). Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:605-610. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report is published by the CDC.
16,476 dog bites to persons aged 16 years or greater were work related in 2001. (Ibid., Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:608.
Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.)"
Like I was saying The Pits, the Rots, Boxers,etc are more likely to cause significant damage just because of the sheer strength of the dog.
LOL I was actually attacked by one of my customers miniature poodle last week. (which are among the most viscious breed based on my experience.
Its just that because of their size. they arent much of a threat provided you know they are there LOL
It wasnt really a problem because all I had to do was step hold it down by my foot till it calmed down and the customer came downstairs and leashed it.
Was quite a comical site actually
I came inside to use the bathroom, and the dog (I have a cat thats larger) charged me and tried biting my leg (only got hold of he pants leg) Visciouly I might add. I shook the dog off and when he charged me again I placed my boot on his head and pinned him to the floor. Not real hard, just hard enough to hold him there.
Once he realised he couldnt go anywhere he just lay there till the owner came down and put him on a leash again. then he tried charging again
LOL Guess ya hadta see it ot appreciate it
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i would never, ever own a pitbull for residential purposes. beyond their breeding as fighting dogs, and reputation, i think there is bite data supporting the higher rate of bites and higher level of damage per bite incident for pitbulls. not sure tho, but for me it doesn't matter. my mind is made up. there are enough vicious attacks by pitbulls in Florida to convince me that i wouldn't have one. they seem to have a penchant for ripping the faces off children.
Got you right here (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf).
Breeds of dogs involved in human dog-bite related fatalities (DBRF) in the United States, by 2-year period, between 1979 and 1998.
Purebreeds:
Pit bull-type - 66
Rottweiler - 39
German Shepherd - 17
Husky-type - 15
Malamute - 12
Doberman - 9
Chow Chow - 8
Great Dane - 7
Saint Bernard - 7
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interesting Indy... im thinking that it might partly be a nature vs nurture thing i.e, pitbulls may be owned by a larger percentage of people who want a dangerous dog, and people who desire a dangerous dog may be more inclined to be irresponsible owners.
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Its pretty clear no one is going to convince anyone to change their minds.
I base my opinion on the dogs I have known & raised in my life, and no one can change any of that. I believe what I see & know in person more than what I read from todays media. I'm not saying these cases didnt happen, just that I trust my own experiences more than the media.
My dogs are companions first & then home protection. They sleep with my kids & I dont worry about child abductors. I dont worry about someone breaking into my house while I'm at work, and stealing my pit bull to use in some other crime. No one will ever wrestle my pit bull away from me, and use it against me. A weapon will not pull your unconcious body out of a burning building. I could go on & on, but it's time for work, & you get my point.
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Hey guys thanks for making me feel like im from the getto or that im trash for owning a pitt-bull I have owned qiute a few in my time. I have had game pitts too the game pitt is also the (north american pitt-bull) I have had Dove, Pitt, Mix's. Its all how you raise the dog. If I take a dog any dog make it drag a tire around and every time a dog walks by make it sick the dog and keep it in a little fenced in area then its going to be mean I dont care if it is a jack russel or a toy poodle. I love pitts and not for the "mine is bigger than yours attitude" they are good dogs if you teach them right. So just so everyone knows Im not Trash I live in a 3 bedroom 3 bath home in Carrollton Tx, IM NOT TRASH. Ok now if you would like there is a new breed of pitt out there called a BULLY there not mean they are breed with a english bull and a pitt they are great dogs too there also show dogs I work for a place the has the dog shows for them and we had 300 bullys in one room no fights and no bites. SO next time you want to all some one trash because they own a certan kind of dog think agian please?
RED26:aok
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So just so everyone knows Im not Trash I live in a 3 bedroom 3 bath home in Carrollton Tx, IM NOT TRASH. -Red
hey, c'mon Red, thats like Monica Lewinski saying "I am not a fat, cheezy slut!"
just kidding :) there is plenty of wiggle room exceptions for good pitbull owners... and good pitbulls
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Gunthr
there SIR:aok
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Originally posted by Gunthr
interesting Indy... im thinking that it might partly be a nature vs nurture thing i.e, pitbulls may be owned by a larger percentage of people who want a dangerous dog, and people who desire a dangerous dog may be more inclined to be irresponsible owners.
I'll agree with that. I've met some pits that were absolute sweet hearts. Never bit anybody their entire lives and made for perfect pets. They also had good owners that exercised them relentlessly, and made sure they had plenty of time to socialize with people and dogs. I've come to the conclusion a tired dog is a lot nicer, easier to handle.
On the other hand, I've met pit bulls that needed to be put down because the owner was a total sweetheart. On one occasion, a friend of my fathers was attacked outside his house by a pit. It latched onto his arm and wouldn't let go. He grabbed it by the collar and carried it, still on his arm, into his house to call 911. The dog choked to death and never let go.
It's part genetics, part ownership. A more aggressive breed needs a stronger pack leader. Somebody that's walking their pit, that gets nervous whenever they see somebody else out, or another dog, is going to create a very aggressive reaction in their own dog in its effort to protect them.
Lets just all be very happy than Caucasian Mountain Dogs have not been popularized. They were insanely rare until the fall of the Soviet Union (Soviet Army had the monopoly). They're very large, and get aggressive at just a few weeks old. They've been known to attack cars driving by since it's a threat to their property. Awesome, beautiful dogs... but I wouldn't want anybody short of Cesar Milan to own one anywhere near me.
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Someone posted a stat before that hads sheps at the top of the list. I'd be very interested to see how many of those fatal bites were caused under legitimate protection to the owners or their property, rather than random mauling. I'm sure there are some random attacks, but the GSD, and husky breeds for that matter are nothing like pitts, dovers or rotti's.
My neighboor a couple houses down had a pitbull. The animal had the best of owners, and recieved more exercize and attention than any other dog could dream of. I was around the dog since it was a pup until six years old....Never had a problem with him. Always friendly as can be. Then out of no where the dog charged me (owner caught him on the leash). Within 8 months the animal bit five people, one serious, and was put down.
Since then, I will NEVER trust a pit bull. If you like them, then you like them. Fine. I don't find them to be attractive, nor intelligent animals. You can keep your pitts, just keep those freaks of nature away from me.
GSD's rule!
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8876/shepck7.jpg)
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Originally posted by cav58d
Someone posted a stat before that hads sheps at the top of the list. I'd be very interested to see how many of those fatal bites were caused under legitimate protection to the owners or their property, rather than random mauling. I'm sure there are some random attacks, but the GSD, and husky breeds for that matter are nothing like pitts, dovers or rotti's.
Not sure about circumstances, but deaths from Police & Guard dogs were discounted in the tally, so it's actually probably somewhat higher for GSD as far as a pure total. Some others were thrown out also... death from infection after the attack, mycrodial infraction after being chased, and a few more.
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Beautiful dog cav...:aok
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While pit bulls and rotweillers acount for most of the dog bite fatalities, over 30 breeds have been involved in fatal bites, including recently a pomeranian.
Overall though, despite the widespread publicity, fatal dog bites are extremely rare, usually about 20 per year in the US. Miniscule.
What's not rare though are nonfatal dog bites, about 5 million a year, with 800,000 a year needing medical attention. And pit bulls are not the most common breed to inflict bites. Mixed breeds are.
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Good info here. (http://www.dogexpert.com/Dog%20Bite%20Statistics/DogBiteStatistics.html)
Good points to know:
* Dog bites to people of the male gender are approximately two times greater than the incidence involving females.
* Dogs that are licensed with an identifiable owner are implicated in the vast majority of dog bites (compared with strays).
* The list of breeds most involved in both bite injuries and fatalities changes from year to year and from one area of the country to another, depending on the popularity of the breed.
* The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document that a chained dog is 2.8 times more likely to bite than an unchained dog.
* Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones.
* According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance, costing more than $321 million in 2003. In 2002, the latest year for which numbers are available, the average claim for a dog bite was $16,600.
* Dog attacks account for one-third of all liability claims on homeowners' insurance policies. According to the Western Insurance Information Service, the insurance industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998 alone.
* In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.
* Of the 27 people who died as a result of dog bite attacks in 1997 and 1998, 67% involved unrestrained dogs on the owner's property; 19% involved unrestrained dogs off the owner's property; 11% involved restrained dogs on the owner's property; and 4% involved a restrained dog off the owner's property.
* In a study reported by a retired professor from California State University at Chino, Robert Plum, it was found that one dog in 55 will bite someone seriously during the course of a year. With respect to breed differences in the tendency to inflict serious injury, Plumb estimates that when a pit bull bites a human, one in 16 (e.g. 1/16) will inflict serious injury; this contrasts with a ratio of 1/296 Dobermans, and 1/156 German shepherds.
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Originally posted by -CodyC
Drediock,i love dogs to death, but you should really be asking what good is a group of stray dogs in the country? They are going to need to find a food source, if it's not your livestock then it's your garbage cans. With stray groups there is no telling what they are capable of and it is best for all if they are put down.
A "Group" of stray dogs is one thing.
But just killing "A" dog cause it happens to be on your property?
c'mon man
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Originally posted by indy007
Got you right here (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf).
Breeds of dogs involved in human dog-bite related fatalities (DBRF) in the United States, by 2-year period, between 1979 and 1998.
Purebreeds:
Pit bull-type - 66
Rottweiler - 39
German Shepherd - 17
Husky-type - 15
Malamute - 12
Doberman - 9
Chow Chow - 8
Great Dane - 7
Saint Bernard - 7
Mixed breeds= 90
Wich is almost 25% more than pit-bull types. I wonder why you chose to leave that particular part of the study out?
Using the numbers logic, we should ban any/all mixed breed animals.
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Originally posted by red26
Hey guys thanks for making me feel like im from the getto or that im trash for owning a pitt-bull I have owned qiute a few in my time. I have had game pitts too the game pitt is also the (north american pitt-bull) I have had Dove, Pitt, Mix's. Its all how you raise the dog. If I take a dog any dog make it drag a tire around and every time a dog walks by make it sick the dog and keep it in a little fenced in area then its going to be mean I dont care if it is a jack russel or a toy poodle. I love pitts and not for the "mine is bigger than yours attitude" they are good dogs if you teach them right. So just so everyone knows Im not Trash I live in a 3 bedroom 3 bath home in Carrollton Tx, IM NOT TRASH. Ok now if you would like there is a new breed of pitt out there called a BULLY there not mean they are breed with a english bull and a pitt they are great dogs too there also show dogs I work for a place the has the dog shows for them and we had 300 bullys in one room no fights and no bites. SO next time you want to all some one trash because they own a certan kind of dog think agian please?
RED26:aok
Anyone who has stated that Pit Bulls are only owned by gangsta trash who want to look tough clearly is generalizing and is off base. Pit bulls are owned by by gangsta trash who want to look tough AND by redneck trash who want to look tough.
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90 attacks by mixed breeds sounds like skewed statistics.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Anyone who has stated that Pit Bulls are only owned by gangsta trash who want to look tough clearly is generalizing and is off base. Pit bulls are owned by by gangsta trash who want to look tough AND by redneck trash who want to look tough.
So I guess he's "redneck trash" because he's from Texas?
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Funny we're talking about this. I'm just driving home from the airport and go past a local park where I see a puerto rican woman, holding back her pit bull on a freaking chain link chain. 2 minutes later, I see a a black woman, no more than 120 pounds, walking a full grown rott......
like these women would have any chance of stopping these dogs if they wanted to do anything. well, that all depends if the woman would even want to stop the dogs to begin with.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
interesting Indy... im thinking that it might partly be a nature vs nurture thing i.e, pitbulls may be owned by a larger percentage of people who want a dangerous dog, and people who desire a dangerous dog may be more inclined to be irresponsible owners.
This is why I'm glad the popularity of the Rott has declined so much in recent years. I can't think of anything worse for the breed then all the backyard breeders pumping out garbage dogs for a quik buck. I ran a medical call at a guys house several years ago. The guy had 8 "Rottweiller" looking things chained up on his property. The dogs looked like inbred abominations. I asked him about his dogs and he informed me he was a breeder. Being a responsible Rott owner I experienced a new level of frustration that day.
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Originally posted by cav58d
like these women would have any chance of stopping these dogs if they wanted to do anything.
Sure they would, its called training.
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Ghetto arse woman in New Haven. Im sure they are benevolant enough to stop these dogs....prolly their drug dealer boyfriends dog....And no, i'm not being racist. When I say these people were ghetto, I mean it
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Originally posted by moot
90 attacks by mixed breeds sounds like skewed statistics.
I wouldn't be suprised if it's true. I'm sure that there are more mixed breed than purebred dogs 2 to 1. Plus the mixes are usually the ones that get turned loose to do as they please.
I'm extremely happy that Rotties are on the decline in popularity. They aren't fighting dogs but were getting the reputation due to some awful breeding.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Ghetto arse woman in New Haven. Im sure they are benevolant enough to stop these dogs....prolly their drug dealer boyfriends dog....And no, i'm not being racist. When I say these people were ghetto, I mean it
ghetto training? maybe?
Maybe not.:(
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Originally posted by Atoon
Mixed breeds= 90
Wich is almost 25% more than pit-bull types. I wonder why you chose to leave that particular part of the study out?
Using the numbers logic, we should ban any/all mixed breed animals.
I didn't feel like retyping the second chart since this conversation is/was about pit bulls.
I didn't say ban anything. I don't care wtf pet people own. I had a friend with a pet Timber Wolf named Fenrir. It worked out for him just fine. Only time it ever becomes a problem is with irresponsible owners. Is responsibility too much to ask for? I hope not.
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This thread reminds me a bit of the gun threads.
I am not for banning the breed either. Freedom can be an ugly thing, but the price is worth it.
We should just hold Dog owners of any kind responsible for the actions of their dog, the dog kills someone, they get charged with negligent homicide.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
they are.
You just have to go back 20+ years to find them LOL
The ones he is reporting
the first was in 1991
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00015547.htm
the second was in 1994
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/professional/MMWRtext/mmwr4414.htm
No offence culero
But I think your paranoia is a bit outdated, overhyped and directed at the wrong species
I think you are equally as intelligent on this subject as you have demonstrated you are in terms of basic arithmetic skills in this post. They should start a new TV show for you: "Are You As Smart As A Second Grader?"
No offense :)
PS - maybe you could compete with 5th graders in spelling, maybe not ;)
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Originally posted by Slash27
This is why I'm glad the popularity of the Rott has declined so much in recent years. I can't think of anything worse for the breed then all the backyard breeders pumping out garbage dogs for a quick buck. I ran a medical call at a guys house several years ago. The guy had 8 "Rottweiller" looking things chained up on his property. The dogs looked like inbred abominations. I asked him about his dogs and he informed me he was a breeder. Being a responsible Rott owner I experienced a new level of frustration that day.
Amen. Our dogs had no business ever being as popular as they were, or even are now. I despise the scum who have abused these dogs, and damaged the breed.
Most people do not know Rottweilers are actually herding dogs, that is what they were bred for. The protection skills of the breed came along later. Well bred and raised Rottweilers are among the smartest and best behaved of all dogs. I dearly love mine, and I will not have a home without Rottweilers.
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A neighbor several houses down the road breeds Siberian Huskys. Several years ago my wife was chatting with the lady in her driveway. Another neighbor's Pit Bull got out of their fenced yard and went after one of the Husky pups. The momma Husky, (a very large 65 lb) intercepted the Pit Bull within a few feet of the fleeing pup. She killed it in what seemed like a few seconds... Shredded its throat like a chainsaw. Blood everywhere. Huskys are usually very gentle with adults and kids, but is just about the most ferocious dog on earth when it comes to protecting it pups or children in the household.
Jack Russells, and Terriers in general are fearless little animals that will defend its family to the death without a second thought. My buddy Jay has a Jack Russell. They call it "Wolverine dog" because any critter that enters their yard does so at its peril. Raccoons, squirrels, cats or dogs, it matters not. It's in for a rough time when that 15 pound buzz saw lays eyes on it.
To that mighty mite George... Saved that little girl's life. He gets a gold water bowl in doggie heaven.
(http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/wel80205020439.rp420x400.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Amen. Our dogs had no business ever being as popular as they were, or even are now. I despise the scum who have abused these dogs, and damaged the breed.
Most people do not know Rottweilers are actually herding dogs, that is what they were bred for. The protection skills of the breed came along later. Well bred and raised Rottweilers are among the smartest and best behaved of all dogs. I dearly love mine, and I will not have a home without Rottweilers.
I thought they were bred to pull small carts in Germany?
I love Rottweilers, a friend of mine has one, he is just the sweetest dog. Getting old now, about 14. Huge Dog, twice as wide as my lab.
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Yeah, WW, Husky is an amazing breed - only dog I've ever seen that could chew its way out of a hurricane fence. (No BS, I've seen it happen!)
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Actually, the Rottweiler, according to most of what I have read, was brought to Germany by shepherds of various flock type animals. The size, strength, loyalty, and intelligence of the breed allowed them to be adapted to many working tasks. They are NOT fighting dogs, but they are by nature somewhat territorial and protective. This is NOT a problem, provided the dog is well bred, as opposed to inbred or linear bred, and provided the owner trains and socializes the dog as it matures.
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There are no bad dogs (regardless of breed), just bad owners. :)
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, the Rottweiler, according to most of what I have read, was brought to Germany by shepherds of various flock type animals. The size, strength, loyalty, and intelligence of the breed allowed them to be adapted to many working tasks. They are NOT fighting dogs, but they are by nature somewhat territorial and protective. This is NOT a problem, provided the dog is well bred, as opposed to inbred or linear bred, and provided the owner trains and socializes the dog as it matures.
Totaly agree, all the big breeds need training. If for nothing else they can knock people down when they get really excited and happy to see somone. :D
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by mixed breed you mean they were not pure breed pit bulls.
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Originally posted by culero
I think you are equally as intelligent on this subject as you have demonstrated you are in terms of basic arithmetic skills in this post. They should start a new TV show for you: "Are You As Smart As A Second Grader?"
No offense :)
PS - maybe you could compete with 5th graders in spelling, maybe not ;)
LMAO your right. My bad on the math.
Spelling. I've always been terrible at spelling.
Still doesnt dispel the fact that these incidents were a considerable time ago.
Not 20 years as I mistakingly stated. but 13 years is still a considerable peice of time.
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Anyone have the statistics on people being terribly mangled by Beagles or Collies? They must have better owners all around.
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Originally posted by john9001
by mixed breed you mean they were not pure breed pit bulls.
Perhaps you could take a lil time and actually go to, then read, the link. As aposed to just spewing nonsense.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Anyone who has stated that Pit Bulls are only owned by gangsta trash who want to look tough clearly is generalizing and is off base. Pit bulls are owned by by gangsta trash who want to look tough AND by redneck trash who want to look tough.
So I'm white trash just because I have had Pitt's? Or Im a Redneck that waves a rebble flag and wants to look tough? What are you saying here? I make $15.00 an hour I wear a suite and tie to work I dont live in the getto or a trailer park I live in Carrollton Tx. On the North side witch is White Suburbia If your grass grows over 6 inches you get called in on. I have no fellonys. So Im in no way white Trash a Redneck with a rebble flag or a getto gang banger. You sir if I may call you that? Are just wroung.
RED26:furious
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sorry to stray just a bit.
i saved my old dog's collar with his tags. when i shake that collar, its like my old boy is next to me. i saved that dog from a farmer who caught him killing chickens in a coop when he was just a puppy, and i was asking permission for pheasant hunting on his land in Michigan. i had no dog, i was a teenager. the farmer said "you can hunt. if you want to, take this puppy. otherwise im going to shoot him.
i said, "yeah, i'll take him." and i took that puppy home. he was gun shy, and it was a long while before he would stop following in my footsteps in the soy bean fields and hedge rows and range out in front a little bit.
the magic happened the very first time he flushed a bird and i sucsessfully knocked it down. ( 20 ga. Mossberg bolt action) he went and got the bird and came back and set it down at my feet as if i had trained him to do that! he was never gun shy after that - in fact he would go nuts looking around whenever he heard that bang.
I soon learned that all i had to do was watch his tail. when it started shaking like it was electrified, i knew he was on a bird. i killed 20 some birds over that dog and we ate every bird.
in 1982 just after Christmas, i had to leave michigan and come to florida. my dog was 17 years old then, he had the bluish film over his eyes. it was cracking cold in Michigan then. i had a hundred watt light burning under the galvanized metal floor of his dog house, which had cedar chips and straw in it on top of the floor. he was just too old to come with me. when i called him out of his doghouse, his legs went spread out like a fawn trying to walk for the first time, and I knew his happy life was at an end. It was obvious that he couldln't come with me to Florida.
i asked my dad what to do... he said, "Well, me and your uncle's always took care of our dogs on our own."
So, on new year's day, in 1982, I bought my dog a T-bone steak, and took him out to the woods he loved. After he ate the meat, I called him to me and put his hind quarters between my knees. i shot him in the head five times rapidly with my SW stainless model sixty. the last thing my dog did was wag his tail. i left him there, covered up in the snow and i put a cross there made out of sticks. i truthfully cried there... i honestly don't think i've cried more than a couple times since.
i dream about that dog at least 10 times a year... it was actually one of my best relationships with a living thing. he was a mixed black lab.
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:cry
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i shot him in the head five times with my SW stainless model sixty. the last thing my dog did was wag his tail.
Jesus Christ dude, did you cut his head head off and put a stake in his heart too?
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Slash, you don't know what you are talking about. it was mercy.
i was an intern at a vet clinic. from personal observation i can tell you that what happens to a dog that you take in to have "put down" is not pretty. or at least the Michigan Vet Hospital i worked at.
There was an injection of a cheap poison, spontainious reflexive vomiting by the dog, and 5 minutes of convulsions on a concrete floor, with urine and bowels emptying. i saw at least six dogs put down this way. my dog didn't have to do that, experiencing fear and bad smells. my dog is in the happy hunting grounds, not some dumpster.
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"Using the numbers logic, we should ban any/all mixed breed animals."
I was being sarcastic when I said that. I do not condone banning any breed, pure or mixxed.
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(quote) i was an intern at a vet clinic. from personal observation i can tell you that what happens to a dog that you take in to have "put down" is not pretty. or at least the Michigan Vet Hospital i worked at.
There was an injection of a cheap poison, spontainious reflexive vomiting by the dog, and 5 minutes of convulsions on a concrete floor, with urine and bowels emptying. i saw at least six dogs put down this way. my dog didn't have to do that, experiencing fear and bad smells. (unquote)
That sounds pretty awful. When my 15-year-old Parsons Jack Russell had to be put down, I talked it over with the vet who assured me it would be painless for my dog, and it apparently was. I picked him up and stood him on the vet table, held him in my arms, the vet gave him a shot, and he just went limp (as instructed, I was careful to let him outside before the short final drive to the vets).
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Only idiots believe it is the breed that is evil, when it is really man's own stupidity at work and that the breed gets the blame. Typical...
Read this story a while ago, and thought, "Now that is one well treated Jack Russel to defend those kids." George!
No dog is "born mean" or cruel, or vicious. That is a fact you can take to the bank. Dogs, much like people, learn cruelty from their environment. If you raise a beast (man included) to know only cruelty, or that to attack, or in man's case racisim, and that to behave in an aberrant manner to normal social standards is "okay", then you get what you sowed. A mean, anti-social beast.
Sure, some breeds need extra attention, or they start asserting their natural pack instincts by challenging for dominance. But it is mankinds folly for allowing things to get out of hand by not maintaining the ALPHA relationship in the first place.
Far too many people get a pet, any pet, more as a status symbol, and pay no regard to that pets special needs, if any.
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Heya Mike! Oz from the old ATARI dayze.
But back on topic: Yeah, most of the vets now use more humane over dosage methods for euthanasia.
We had to have our 14 year old Aussie, and our cat put down within a month of each other. Both had recurring cancer, and the process was as you described...
I held them each time, despite our vets stern glare and admonition that they weren't responsible for any damage I might incur should the pet start to struggle. Fortunately, both slipped quietly away in my arms, while ripping my heart out a bit with each passing.
The wife and I both feel that the dog understood, and accepted her time was up, and that she was in her own dignified way, reassuring us that it was okay by her... She'd keep the path to the rainbow bridge clear for when it was our turn to join her. (dangit, I'm getting choked up at the memory)
We had both pets cremated. Received a nice little lacquered pine box for each with a small brass name plate. Wife and I figure we'll do that for all our pets, and the first of us to pass on, leaving all the small boxes to be intered with whichever of us goes last....
For some of those reading this, I am sure I present a morbid mental image. But for the wife and I, this is a small measure of comfort, knowing we'll all remain together for eternity.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
There was an injection of a cheap poison, spontainious reflexive vomiting by the dog, and 5 minutes of convulsions on a concrete floor, with urine and bowels emptying. i saw at least six dogs put down this way. my dog didn't have to do that, experiencing fear and bad smells. my dog is in the happy hunting grounds, not some dumpster.
I brought one of my dogs to the pound today. I shouldn't have been reading this thread. :(
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Originally posted by Odee
No dog is "born mean" or cruel, or vicious
They are born with instincts, some particular to certain breeds
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Slash, you don't know what you are talking about. it was mercy.
i was an intern at a vet clinic. from personal observation i can tell you that what happens to a dog that you take in to have "put down" is not pretty. or at least the Michigan Vet Hospital i worked at.
There was an injection of a cheap poison, spontainious reflexive vomiting by the dog, and 5 minutes of convulsions on a concrete floor, with urine and bowels emptying. i saw at least six dogs put down this way. my dog didn't have to do that, experiencing fear and bad smells. my dog is in the happy hunting grounds, not some dumpster.
Not my point. Its was the 5 rounds to the head I found a bit odd.
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I had to put both of my childhood dogs down, both miniature schnauzers. One was 14 and the other 8, this was done within 4 months. I wish i could have been able to keep their ashes and had them buried with me. Oh well i have great memories of them that i still shed a tear about when i think of them. It's amazing, i've gotten closer to more pets than i have people.
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Originally posted by -CodyC
I had to put both of my childhood dogs down, both miniature schnauzers. One was 14 and the other 8, this was done within 4 months. I wish i could have been able to keep their ashes and had them buried with me. Oh well i have great memories of them that i still shed a tear about when i think of them. It's amazing, i've gotten closer to more pets than i have people.
When lost my first Rott suddenly I was mess. He was only 4 when he literally died in my arms in the living room one night. I was so distraught I was having trouble functioning. I took a day off from work and two of my buddues from the firehouse had to come bury him because I could't do it. I had not gotten that upset when some family members passed away.
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Originally posted by Odee
No dog is "born mean" or cruel, or vicious. That is a fact you can take to the bank.
Bologna. (i can't say what I want with the language filter) Dachsunds are bred to hunt rabbits and mice, collies herd anything in range, pointers point and retrievers play fetch. Why is it so hard to accept that a dog bred to fight and kill will fight and kill? The best hunting dogs are the ones you don't have to teach. And you know how to train a border collie to herd sheep? You put it in with them! The training is just to learn commands. Instinct is the real drive.
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I agree with you Slash... that is either excessive, or p-poor marksmanship...
Originally posted by Cougar68
Bologna. (i can't say what I want with the language filter) Dachsunds are bred to hunt rabbits and mice, collies herd anything in range, pointers point and retrievers play fetch. Why is it so hard to accept that a dog bred to fight and kill will fight and kill? The best hunting dogs are the ones you don't have to teach. And you know how to train a border collie to herd sheep? You put it in with them! The training is just to learn commands. Instinct is the real drive.
Cougar, you are wrong on so many levels. Dogs have to be trained to fight and kill. The Daschund may have the hardwiring for hunting, but it needs to learn, or be taught how to stalk the kill. Then LEARN how to make the kill.
Some dogs may be more pre-disposed to meanness training, such as the guard dogs and poodles, true. But they HAVE TO BE TAUGHT to be mean, to attack, to not like humans, or prey animals, or other dogs.
ALL dogs are PACK animals. They look to us as the pack LEADERS. If you are not in a pack Mentallity, with your pet, then you not only do not deserve the pet, but need some education in animal behavior before being considered worthy of owning even a hamster.
You take any pack, or herd oriented animal and ostrascize it from the PACK, then where is it going to learn what is right and what is wrong of it? Who is going to be around to correct it at the time it's being bad, and praise it when doing good?
I repeat... NO DOG IS BORN BAD. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp sir? After 54 years around all types of dogs in all types of situations, I know this is fact. Heck, any competent dog trainer will tell you the same thing if you take the time to ask.
The best hunting dogs still need to learn fetch/retrieve commands. They may have the basics of the stalk, the point, the flush, but you have to teach them what you expect them to do on the hunts. And this teaching takes a determined human, or PACK leader to do it properly. Anyone that says different is so full of malarky as to be laughable.
To me, it sounds like your ideal hunting dogs are the ones I find lost in the woods every year during hunting season, because the owner, or pack leader, refused to properly train them to return...
Here is a pointer on dog psych 101 - Never EVER turn your back and run from a strange dog, no matter the breed. This may sound contradictory to what I preach above, but bear with me. All dogs are prey animals, this is true. If they see you running away, then you must be prey, and the instinct, however atavistic, tells it to give chase, and yes, I concede that the dog in most cases will indeed give chase... But it is not doing so out of meanness. It is doing so because you placed yourself in the position of PREY, and not LEADER.
when confronted by a "vicious" dog, or bear for that matter, always back away when retreating. Shout, "Bad DOG!", or "Go away you stupid MOFO biotch" or whatever comes to mind, but never EVER turn your back until you are safe. Turning tail and running means the chase is on, whether the dog is anti-social, or just wanting to play.
Any animal, not just dogs, will fight to the death given the right circumstances. I've seen a 3oz. Mole take on my 60 pound Labrador, when the lab had it cornered. It lost the fight, but it did its best to defend itself to the very end when it knew it could not escape.
...I'll end this, knowing that what I write is lost on you and others, but with the hopes that some small part of it will sink in to the rest. I know what I know because I live what I'm preaching. Have trained halfbreed wolves, and turned "bad dogs" into good ones. All it takes is some effort on our part, and a little dedication to understanding where the dog is coming form... much like learning to read people.
adieu
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Originally posted by Odee
I agree with you Slash... that is either excessive, or p-poor marksmanship...
Cougar, you are wrong on so many levels. Dogs have to be trained to fight and kill. The Daschund may have the hardwiring for hunting, but it needs to learn, or be taught how to stalk the kill. Then LEARN how to make the kill.
Some dogs may be more pre-disposed to meanness training, such as the guard dogs and poodles, true. But they HAVE TO BE TAUGHT to be mean, to attack, to not like humans, or prey animals, or other dogs.
ALL dogs are PACK animals. They look to us as the pack LEADERS. If you are not in a pack Mentallity, with your pet, then you not only do not deserve the pet, but need some education in animal behavior before being considered worthy of owning even a hamster.
You take any pack, or herd oriented animal and ostrascize it from the PACK, then where is it going to learn what is right and what is wrong of it? Who is going to be around to correct it at the time it's being bad, and praise it when doing good?
I repeat... NO DOG IS BORN BAD. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp sir? After 54 years around all types of dogs in all types of situations, I know this is fact. Heck, any competent dog trainer will tell you the same thing if you take the time to ask.
The best hunting dogs still need to learn fetch/retrieve commands. They may have the basics of the stalk, the point, the flush, but you have to teach them what you expect them to do on the hunts. And this teaching takes a determined human, or PACK leader to do it properly. Anyone that says different is so full of malarky as to be laughable.
To me, it sounds like your ideal hunting dogs are the ones I find lost in the woods every year during hunting season, because the owner, or pack leader, refused to properly train them to return...
Here is a pointer on dog psych 101 - Never EVER turn your back and run from a strange dog, no matter the breed. This may sound contradictory to what I preach above, but bear with me. All dogs are prey animals, this is true. If they see you running away, then you must be prey, and the instinct, however atavistic, tells it to give chase, and yes, I concede that the dog in most cases will indeed give chase... But it is not doing so out of meanness. It is doing so because you placed yourself in the position of PREY, and not LEADER.
when confronted by a "vicious" dog, or bear for that matter, always back away when retreating. Shout, "Bad DOG!", or "Go away you stupid MOFO biotch" or whatever comes to mind, but never EVER turn your back until you are safe. Turning tail and running means the chase is on, whether the dog is anti-social, or just wanting to play.
Any animal, not just dogs, will fight to the death given the right circumstances. I've seen a 3oz. Mole take on my 60 pound Labrador, when the lab had it cornered. It lost the fight, but it did its best to defend itself to the very end when it knew it could not escape.
...I'll end this, knowing that what I write is lost on you and others, but with the hopes that some small part of it will sink in to the rest. I know what I know because I live what I'm preaching. Have trained halfbreed wolves, and turned "bad dogs" into good ones. All it takes is some effort on our part, and a little dedication to understanding where the dog is coming form... much like learning to read people.
adieu
The truth of the matter has been stated IMHO. :aok
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i was an intern at a vet clinic. from personal observation i can tell you that what happens to a dog that you take in to have "put down" is not pretty. or at least the Michigan Vet Hospital i worked at.
There was an injection of a cheap poison, spontainious reflexive vomiting by the dog, and 5 minutes of convulsions on a concrete floor, with urine and bowels emptying. i saw at least six dogs put down this way.
You weren't an intern. Veterinary interns are graduate veterinarians.
And if that's really what happened when dogs were euthanized at that hospital, the veterinarians are committing malpractice. There's absolutely no reason for a dog to vomit and convulse, much less for 5 minutes, during a euthanasia performed according to standards of practice.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
snip
Not 20 years as I mistakingly stated. but 13 years is still a considerable peice of time.
:)
OK, seriously. Think about this a bit. I'm not (maybe you are, I'm not) talking about a decision I made yesterday. I'm giving you a couple of examples that illustrate the fact that while in most areas death from rabies is simply unknown, along the south Texas-Mexico border its not. Keep in mind I'm 50+ years old and my experience pre-dates these 2 incidents by a long time.
Something else you may not have considered. Of any vector for rabies, dogs are by far the most likely to infect humans. Why? Other common vectors like coyotes, skunks, coons, etc are wild animals with a natural fear of humans. They typically do their best to avoid humans. Dogs, not having that in-bred fear, are much more likely to interact with humans.
So, put yourself in culero's shoes. You've grown up in a mostly remote rural area where rabies is much more common than in the rest of the nation. There is actually some history of human death by rabies within close proximity. You live in an isolated rural setting where coyotes and other known wild rabies vectors roam freely (I've shot several coyotes in my yard, dood!).
Now, you see stray dogs that look uncared-for in your yard. Where your pets are. Where your family is.
Do you want to accept the amount of risk involved in tolerating their presence?
Not me. YMMV.
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Originally posted by Odee
Cougar, you are wrong on so many levels. Dogs have to be trained to fight and kill. The Daschund may have the hardwiring for hunting, but it needs to learn, or be taught how to stalk the kill. Then LEARN how to make the kill.
Absolutely wrong. A friend of mine is one of our area's top Dachshund breeders. One of their 4 month old puppies killed it's first rabbit last week. How? They turned it loose in the field with the rabbit and mother nature took over. Ever seen a Collie pup let loose in a pen with geese? They get in there and round them in a tight circle without ever knowing why. It's hard wired, nothing taught at all. Instincts are polished with training, but they are there to begin with.
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If dogs are not born with traits then why even have breeds?
It is bs.. some dogs are bred to be attack dogs and vicious. some are so small that it doesn't much matter.. some are large and powerful or have been bred to have extremely powerful jaws (why do that if you only want a loving pet?)
I don't care... own what you want but..
If it attacks someone it should be the same as if you attacked em... if it runs out an kills some kid then you should be charged with 1st degree murder... if it mauls someone you should lose everything you own and stand trial for assault in the first degree.
I am tired of coddling dog owners.
lazs
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Absolutely wrong. A friend of mine is one of our area's top Dachshund breeders. One of their 4 month old puppies killed it's first rabbit last week. How? They turned it loose in the field with the rabbit and mother nature took over. Ever seen a Collie pup let loose in a pen with geese? They get in there and round them in a tight circle without ever knowing why. It's hard wired, nothing taught at all. Instincts are polished with training, but they are there to begin with.
Now you are beginning to understand. Yes I simplified quite a bit, but no animal is born MEAN All are born with instincts as you said, that have to be honed, and I have mentioned before... but there are none that are born man-killers. That's is a learned trait. Period.
By the way, this 4 month old Dashy... was the rabbit staked down? Highly dubious tale your friend weaves.
Yes I have had Aussie sheperds as pups, and say again, the predisposition to certain traits is evident, as mine was great at rounding up the kids, and stray dogs around us. BUT, they had to be taught that nipping heels was not accepted. Round them up, make a lunge, but no nipping. *already hears the :huh and WTF But there is no genetic trait for meanness.
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Originally posted by Odee
none that are born man-killers.
No, just killers, I suppose that none are born with webbed feet either, and I suppose breeds that do need to be taught how to swim.
Roy said that about his tiger "they are not born man killers"
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Just cuz Corgis are spiffy... and they're bodies are so out of proportion its comical...
Mr. Nibbler, had him for 3 months now, rescue'd from the Houston Humane Society.
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/asdf/5.JPG)
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/asdf/3.JPG)
Black ones are rare, only 1 in 250. In another 6 months or so, I'm going to get another Corgi, preferably a girl with a nice tan coat so he's got a friend to hang out with. He's my office dog and spends most of the day sleeping under my desk.
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Sixpence, pull your liberal head out of it, eh?
Originally posted by myelo
You weren't an intern. Veterinary interns are graduate veterinarians.
And if that's really what happened when dogs were euthanized at that hospital, the veterinarians are committing malpractice. There's absolutely no reason for a dog to vomit and convulse, much less for 5 minutes, during a euthanasia performed according to standards of practice.
Agree with the first and second parts... There are exceptions to the last.
If the animal still has such a will to live, it will give the appearance of convulsing as the cocktail takes hold, the dog tries to flee. Loose bowels are not uncommon on death either, though vomiting is extremely rare.
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Originally posted by Odee
Sixpence, pull your liberal head out of it, eh?
Ahhh, the name calling, just admit you don't know what you're talking about
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Nice looking little man there Indy. Makes it even better after reading where you got him from. your a good man.
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Not my point. Its was the 5 rounds to the head I found a bit odd. - Slash
You weren't an intern. Veterinary interns are graduate veterinarians.
And if that's really what happened when dogs were euthanized at that hospital, the veterinarians are committing malpractice. There's absolutely no reason for a dog to vomit and convulse, much less for 5 minutes, during a euthanasia performed according to standards of practice. - myelo
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Slash: i shot my very much loved dog in the back of the head. i expected him to immediately stop moving. he did not, and i was horrified. i tried the best i could to make sure it was quick for him. i'm simply sharing an experience. i did not hate my dog.
myelo: i certainly was doing an internship for nine months, an unpaid arrangement with full involvment of my college and agreement from the animal hospital.
it allowed me to learn many facets of animal care, but primarily dogs, and i learned and assisted in everything from cleaning teeth up to assisting in surgical procedures such as anesthesia, castrations, removal of cancer tumors, nuetering of cats and dogs, a half dozen hip displasia surgeries in German Shepards which is very involved, and more, plus a lot of microscopic identification of parasites, treatmenst, and other things to numerous to mention, and of course, euthenasias. your off the cuff judgement of my experience is irrelevant - unless you want to accuse me of lying. Organic chem cleaned my clock and i came to realise that i wouldn't be able to compete for admission to Michigan's vet. school.
my observations about how dogs were put down there is accurate. im sure there were sometimes owners present when an animal was put down, but i never attended one of those. one caveat: this was quite some time ago.
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Originally posted by Odee
Yes I simplified quite a bit, but no animal is born MEAN All are born with instincts as you said, that have to be honed, and I have mentioned before... but there are none that are born man-killers. That's is a learned trait. Period.
Does it really matter if the pit bull is ticked off when he bites your throat? If the instinct is to kill and gets triggered by a human, it doesn't matter if the pit bull is mean or not. I agree that any dog can be made aggressive towards humans by poor treatment. Where we disagree is that a fighting dog's instinct to kill can inadvertantly be triggered at any point. As you mentioned, herding dogs don't always herd what they're supposed to. The neighborhood kids are fair game. (my oldest collie kept herding my friend's daughter back to his side) So it's not unreasonable to believe that a killing instinct can be triggered in the same way.
My first wife's father had a pit bull back in Texas. Typical friendly as all get out, never hurt a flea kind of story. I was over there one afternoon and he was at my side while I was petting him. All of a sudden he perked up and was off like a shot. I heard a yelp and a snap and then he came trotting back. The whole thing took maybe 30 seconds. A lab was walking through some nearby brush and he snapped it's neck. I would never ever trust an animal with that kind of instinct around people.
BTW, the bunny was not staked. They happened upon it inadvertantly while on a walk at the park.
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Not pit bulls, but was just in time to took photo when American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were attacking my son!!!
You can see fear in his face and how he is desperately trying to defend himself with small wooden stick.... didn't have any of my guns near, so I just took picture....
(http://www.vuokko.org/amstaffiforum/IMG_6019.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gunthr
myelo: i certainly was doing an internship for nine months, an unpaid arrangement with full involvment of my college and agreement from the animal hospital.
I'm not accusing you of lying. I'm accusing you of not understanding what an internship is and misusing the term. Internships are for graduate veterinarians who want further training beyond veterinary school, often in preparation for a residency. See here (http://www.virmp.org/virmp/) for example.
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Originally posted by Vuokko
Not pit bulls, but was just in time to took photo when American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were attacking my son!!!
You can see fear in his face and how he is desperately trying to defend himself with small wooden stick.... didn't have any of my guns near, so I just took picture....
(http://www.vuokko.org/amstaffiforum/IMG_6019.jpg)
lol it took me a while to see where you were going with that.... :)
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Originally posted by Cougar68
My first wife's father had a pit bull back in Texas. Typical friendly as all get out, never hurt a flea kind of story. I was over there one afternoon and he was at my side while I was petting him. All of a sudden he perked up and was off like a shot. I heard a yelp and a snap and then he came trotting back. The whole thing took maybe 30 seconds. A lab was walking through some nearby brush and he snapped it's neck. I would never ever trust an animal with that kind of instinct around people.
I had a problem with my heeler when the pitbull moved in with us. It was more of a territory issue, but they would get in fights on a regular basis. My heeler always instigated it and i began by just breaking the fights up however i could. This is a 70lbs pit and a 40lbs heeler, so they were always rough fights. Eventually i had to resort to whipping the dogs to get them to stop fighting and after enough whippings they stopped fighting all together.
In the case of this pit you described i would have beat the hell out of it. We all know that dogs need to know what kind of behavior is acceptable and we get it through their heads any way we can be it rubbing their nose in it and spanking them or thumping them on the nose with a rolled up paper. My heeler who i've been around for about 2 years now(both of my dogs belong to my girlfriend, so i haven't been around them their whole life) knows now when i raise my voice to stop what she is doing and come straight to me. I've only been around the pit for 3 months and she is slowly coming around. Dogs take time to groom to the appropriate behavior that you are looking for.
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I'm not accusing you of lying. I'm accusing you of not understanding what an internship is and misusing the term. Internships are for graduate veterinarians who want further training beyond veterinary school, often in preparation for a residency. See here for example.
I see. i seems that im mistaken about the name of the program.
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All dogs, regardless of breed, are born with an instinct to kill because they are a predator. They are also pack animals and the owner needs to make absolutely sure they are the Alpha member of the pack in the dogs eyes. (The pack leader)
All dogs should be trained in at least the sit, stay and heel commands and should do so immediately w/o regard for their own desires. Far to many dog owners don't teach their dogs anything at all. That is where the problem lies, it lies with the owners, not the dogs.
No dog I have ever owned has ever snapped at me (or anyone else) more than once because they learned the first time that retribution was swift and sure. They learned immediately they were not in charge, I was.
Dogs need training, they need to be taught what behavior is acceptable and what is not. Far to many owners do not take the time to do this. The only dog that can't be trained is the one that has no desire to please it's owner. And that is actually because the dog believes he/she is the pack leader and not the owner. All dogs desire to please the pack leader because they don't desire to be punished.
Again, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. :)
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The fact remains that some breeds are more likely to bite humans than others.
If you have one of these breeds that is aggressive and is also large and has outsized jaw muscles then you have a weapon.
If you own one you should be convicted of attempted murder if it attacks someone and everything you own should go to the person attacked and you should rot in prison.
Other than that I have no objections to anyone owning any kind of dog they want.
lazs
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Originally posted by Vuokko
Not pit bulls, but was just in time to took photo when American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were attacking my son!!!
You can see fear in his face and how he is desperately trying to defend himself with small wooden stick.... didn't have any of my guns near, so I just took picture....
(http://www.vuokko.org/amstaffiforum/IMG_6019.jpg)
So you stand there and let 2 dogs attack your child while you snap photo's?
Thats great parenting!
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sting138
So you stand there and let 2 dogs attack your child while you snap photo's?
Thats great parenting!
:rolleyes:
He had to take a picture so he could come here and post about it, which as everyone knows is Step 1 in any potential emergency.
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Staffordshire
Here we spell that P-I-T.
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Originally posted by myelo
He had to take a picture so he could come here and post about it, which as everyone knows is Step 1 in any potential emergency.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Sting138
So you stand there and let 2 dogs attack your child while you snap photo's?
Thats great parenting!
:rolleyes:
I took this the wrong way as well at first, but i believe he is being sarcastic here guys. Note how he names exactly the breed his dogs are. Also notice that the black dog is chasing the brown one and the brown one is jumping up to get the stick :) Finally notice the smile on the kids face and the sarcastic tone of the "I didn' thave any of my guns nearby so i took a picture." Hehehe beautiful dogs btw. Love the brown one, is that the bull terrier?
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Originally posted by Sting138
So you stand there and let 2 dogs attack your child while you snap photo's?
Thats great parenting!
:rolleyes:
That is great evidence in the court!!!
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Originally posted by -CodyC
I took this the wrong way as well at first, but i believe he is being sarcastic here guys. Note how he names exactly the breed his dogs are. Also notice that the black dog is chasing the brown one and the brown one is jumping up to get the stick :) Finally notice the smile on the kids face and the sarcastic tone of the "I didn' thave any of my guns nearby so i took a picture." Hehehe beautiful dogs btw. Love the brown one, is that the bull terrier?
You got it Cody.:)
And thanks, brown one is American staffordshire.
Actually couldn't think that nobody would believe my text / picture, but how wrong was I.
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Having these dogs is like giving a gun to a young child with a bad temper. Sure, all kids can have temper tantrums and could even hurt someone but it would be pretty stupid to give someone who is immature, ill tempered and unable to understand the seriousness of killing or maiming that very ability. Any animal that is the least bit likely to kill a person should either be in the wild or in a cage. I really don’t care if people’s pets kill them; I just don’t want their stupid choices to put others at risk.
Anyone mind if I make some anthrax in my backyard? I’ll be safe, really, I will.
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Yes any breed of dog can be a killer and they're all predators to an extent, but we're talking about purpose bred domestic dogs. These dogs, herders included, have been selectively bred for generations to produce certain traits. Fighting dogs produce, ummmmmm... fighters? Certainly with proper training and discipline (just love it when people brag about whipping their animals to put them in their place:rolleyes: ) these traits, be it herding or fighting, can be lessened. But they are still there.
Let me run with eskimo's gun analogy for a minute. A pit bull is more than a gun. It's a gun that's capable of unholstering itself and firing at random. Maybe it only happens to one out of 1,000 dogs. But if 1 out of 1,000 Colt revolvers picked out a target at random and shot would you keep one in your house?
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Any animal that is the least bit likely to kill a person should either be in the wild or in a cage.
Like horses? How about cattle? I had had a parrot try to bite my damn finger off once, what about them?
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Originally posted by Slash27
Like horses? How about cattle? I had had a parrot try to bite my damn finger off once, what about them?
Good point; I'll add farm to "wild or in a cage".
Glad you survived the parrot attack; those things can tear your head off in half a second.
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The fact remains that some breeds are more likely to bite humans than others.
While that is true, it is also a direct reflection of the animals lack of training by it's owner.
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Fighting dogs produce, ummmmmm... fighters?
Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting.
Let's go with the gun analogy again. Some gun owners are responsible, some aren't. Same applies to dog owners. ;)
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Originally posted by Cougar68
(just love it when people brag about whipping their animals to put them in their place:rolleyes: )
Yes I was bragging because i need that kind of reassurance in my life to know at least i can kick my dogs butt. Give me a break cougar, dogs are like kids, they know they've done something wrong when you spank them. I know i did when my dad grabbed his belt. Even after it was over i knew he still loved me, it's the same with dogs.
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Yes any breed of dog can be a killer and they're all predators to an extent, but we're talking about purpose bred domestic dogs. These dogs, herders included, have been selectively bred for generations to produce certain traits. Fighting dogs produce, ummmmmm... fighters? Certainly with proper training and discipline (just love it when people brag about whipping their animals to put them in their place ) these traits, be it herding or fighting, can be lessened. But they are still there.
Here Cougar and I agree 110% except for the fighters part. The dogs still need to be trained to fight effectively. This why you should never offer puppies for FREE, because those are the target dogs that are most used for 'training' fighting dogs ilegally.
Let me run with eskimo's gun analogy for a minute. A pit bull is more than a gun. It's a gun that's capable of unholstering itself and firing at random. Maybe it only happens to one out of 1,000 dogs. But if 1 out of 1,000 Colt revolvers picked out a target at random and shot would you keep one in your house?
Can we all at least agree that certain people should never own even a toy dog, or gun, and get on with life?
Originally posted by Vuokko
Not pit bulls, but was just in time to took photo when American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were attacking my son!!!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
FOCLMGBO! Yeah that kid looks so terrified he's laughing. Tan Pit/Terrier is leaping for the stick. Black Pit/Terrier is looking at the leaper, preparing to defend the kid...
All three are playing together.
Nice pic, fella. :aok
Here are two of my vicious backyard Wolves. Can't you just feel the fear and anger these dogs are pouring fourth as my 3 and 5 year old grandkids play 5 feet away?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/Backyard_Wolves_by_MakersMischief.jpg)
The one on the right is the 9 year old Springer mix, the other is Mudnose Molly, the Chow-Lab-? mix who's mom was rescued from Katrina at 1.5 years. Pictures have a disturbing way of being open to impression without having the full story.
BTW - both dogs were playing around.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting.
Let's go with the gun analogy again. Some gun owners are responsible, some aren't. Same applies to dog owners. ;)
Do you mean trained, or bred?
Some anthrax owners are responsible, some aren’t. Stop the ban on anthrax!
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Guns don't jump the fence and chase kids on bicycles.
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after reading all these postings i have concluded that all the labrador and beagle owners must be really good owners who train their dogs very well.
whats wrong with the rest of the "dog lovers"?
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Originally posted by Odee
Can we all at least agree that certain people should never own even a toy dog, or gun, and get on with life?
Absolutely. A bad owner can turn a good dog bad in no time at all.
Originally posted by -CodyC
Give me a break cougar, dogs are like kids, they know they've done something wrong when you spank them.
There are loads of other more effective ways to keep a dog in its place than putting a boot in its butt. But that's another thread of its own.
My biggest issue with the pit bull is the instinct. I don't deny that owners are responsible for lots of behaviorial issues. I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.
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Some breeds do require more attention than others. That is why the reponsible gun owner... uhm, pet owner learns to 'read' their pet, and stay on top of any potential situation before it turns into a problem.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Do you mean trained, or bred?
Some anthrax owners are responsible, some aren’t. Stop the ban on anthrax!
I meant what I typed. :) The pit bulls that are bred specifically for fighting are bred for aggression (among other things). Without that aggression they won't fight.
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I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.
It can be bred out of them by the use of selective breeding. It can also be overcome with posistive/negative reinforcement.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I meant what I typed. :) The pit bulls that are bred specifically for fighting are bred for aggression (among other things). Without that aggression they won't fight.
"Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting."
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after reading all these postings i have concluded that all the labrador and beagle owners must be really good owners who train their dogs very well.
Even labs and beagles can bite. They are less likely to because the majority of them aren't very aggressive towards humans, just one trait they have been bred for.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
"Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting."
Now you are just being silly. :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Now you are just being silly. :)
Elfie, you display a remarkable ammount of ignorance in such a short sentence. :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Elfie
It can be bred out of them by the use of selective breeding. It can also be overcome with posistive/negative reinforcement.
You're getting closer. It can definitely be stamped out by selective breeding. The problem is that this will take generations and responsible breeding which unfortunately is what the vast majority of the pit crowd doesn't practice.
Positive/negative reinforcement is only effective when the dominant pack member (hopefully the owner) is present. The instinct can still come out when the dog is on its own.
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Enough scary dog talk. I'm renting a Bengal from the zoo and having it mark its spoor around the perimeter of my yard twice weekly, more if it rains. :noid
Uh (trying to remember Frank Buck Bring 'Em Back Alive terminology), nah, spoor just tracks, I guess, though it sounds earthier. You know, the tinkling that guy did to keep wolves away from his camp in Alaska.
What's that term? Spraying? Marking? Bartender, another keg of Canine Repellent Fluid!
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Absolutely. A bad owner can turn a good dog bad in no time at all.
There are loads of other more effective ways to keep a dog in its place than putting a boot in its butt. But that's another thread of its own.
My biggest issue with the pit bull is the instinct. I don't deny that owners are responsible for lots of behaviorial issues. I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.
I agree cougar, with my pitt i have only had to kick the crap out of her one time and i do mean kick. It was the last time she got in a fight with my heeler. Since then most forms of punishment usually involve a finger flick on the snout or ear. If she is trying to overpower me on the leash then she usually ends up choking herself until she figures out that she can't pull me. I don't beat my dogs, i dish out a small dose of pain as a negative reinforcement. Most times i just raise my voice and she understands, then she ends up in the garage away from the other dogs (time out).
The only problem i have found with both my dogs is there are certain things that negative reinforcement can't get rid of. My pitt is tall enough to knock our trash can into the floor and tear into it. She does this on a regular basis given the opportunity. No matter how much I yell or punish, even though she knows she has done wrong, she will do it again. I think this is just a survival instinct that can't be stamped out.
Also Cougar I will add that i do agree with you that traits can't be stamped out, only suppressed through positive and negative reinforcement by the owner. I refer to the situation in which the dog of your ex-father in law killed a lab. The dogs owner was there, but still went and killed a lab. So obviously he did not discourage this type of behavior. If the behavior is not discouraged then the dog has no force telling it that what it is doing is wrong.
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Originally posted by Odee
Elfie, you display a remarkable ammount of ignorance in such a short sentence. :rofl :rofl
Explain.
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Positive/negative reinforcement is only effective when the dominant pack member (hopefully the owner) is present. The instinct can still come out when the dog is on its own.
If the dog has been trained properly, it won't come out when the pack leader isn't present.
Example. If you don't allow your dogs on the furniture in your home. When you walk into the room and see him on the couch, you tell him to get down. This happens over and over. The only thing the dog learns is that it is not ok to be on the furniture when you are in the room. He will never learn that it is not ok to be on the furniture if you don't catch him every time BEFORE he gets onto your couch. You have to stop him when he first thinks about it or he doesn't learn what you wanted him to learn. That same concept applies to all behavioral training.
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Originally posted by Elfie
That same concept applies to all behavioral training.
Behavioral yes, but not instinct. I can walk into the kitchen and throw a t-bone steak on the floor and my dogs won't touch it. I can leave it there and walk into the other room and they still won't touch it. They'll look at me like I'm nuts for leaving it there, but they won't touch it. If that same t-bone drops when nobody is home, it's on!!! An animal's bred in instinct is just as strong as food drive. It can't be completely eliminated to the point that I would feel comfortable in trusting my or someone else's life on it. That's exactly what happens with pit bulls. You're betting your life on that instinct not popping up even once. It ain't worth it. Good dogs that aren't bred to kill are too plentiful in the shelters to have to deal with that.
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I'm going to end my posting on this thread here. There's absolutely no way my mind will be changed (yours either) and we're just going in circles at this point. I sincerely hope that those with pit bulls will forever be able to describe their dogs as well mannered and nice. And I also sincerely hope that nobody ever breeds another. ;) It's always good to talk animals, even with differing viewpoints.
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Pit bulls are also bred for shows.
Here is the AKC breed standard for the American Staffordshire Terrier.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/american_staffordshire_terrier/
I can't find the guidelines for how much aggression a dog can display w/o being disqualified. I do however recall watching a dog show on television some years back and the commentators talked about that for awhile. There is a limit that cannot be crossed for show dogs. Breeders that breed the show dogs know this and won't breed dogs that are overly aggressive.
Some information from this link: http://www.goodpooch.com/MediaBriefs/GPpitbulls.htm
Are 'Pit Bulls' Naturally Aggressive Towards Other Dogs?
The short answer, "No."
"There is no scientific proof that genetics cause a breed of dog to be aggressive, vicious or dangerous." - testimony from Standing Committee on amendments to the Dog Owners Liability Act. 2005
"Variability in behaviour has a wider range within a breed than between breeds. Within the discipline of psychobiology and animal behaviour there is no data from empirically supported studies, published in refereed scientific literature, to support the idea that one breed of dog is `vicious.' The adult behaviour of a domestic dog is determined overwhelmingly by its experiential history, environmental management and training." - Dr. Mary Lee Nitschke, Ph.D.
Believing the myth that 'pit bulls' are naturally aggressive towards other dogs, all-too-many people restrict their 'pit bulls' from normal, positive, social interactions with other dogs. Here's an example of how it all starts:
The proud owner of a little, 9-week-old 'pit bull' puppy was out walking her new family member when she came across another person walking her dog. The other dog owner understandably stopped to meet the tiny puppy. She asked if it was okay if her dog "met" the woman's puppy, and the woman agreed. The older dog got up and walked the few feet to sniff the puppy, at which point the puppy's owner pulled up on its leash so she was essentially hanging the poor little thing, with just its two hind legs on the ground.
The owner of the adult dog asked the woman to "Please let you puppy's leash go.", at which point the puppy's owner did nothing. Seeing the poor puppy strangling at the end of the leash, the other dog owner thought it best to move on.
This is indicative of the anxious responses many dog owners exhibit when meeting other dogs. By pulling tight on leashes and collars, or worse (as in the case of the puppy's owner), these kinds of inexperienced dog owners are actually creating a negative association with meeting strange dogs. How would you feel if every time you met someone new, someone yanked a collar around your neck; harshly pulled you away; and ultimately never allowed you to interact with strangers? You wouldn't exactly be nice and relaxed around strangers, huh?
Same goes for dogs
From further down in the article:
There are two main points that many people fail to recognize:
1. There is no such thing as a breed of dog that won't bite.
2. The breeds at the top of biting statistics are the most popular breeds at the time. Meaning, in Canada, Labradors, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherds and other popular breeds top the bite statistics. Any dog can bite. Any poorly trained and unsupervised dog may bite unprovoked. Breed is not the deciding factor, training and supervision is.
Proper training of any dog includes lots and lots of socialization with as many humans and other animals as possible at the earliest possible age.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Behavioral yes, but not instinct. I can walk into the kitchen and throw a t-bone steak on the floor and my dogs won't touch it. I can leave it there and walk into the other room and they still won't touch it. They'll look at me like I'm nuts for leaving it there, but they won't touch it. If that same t-bone drops when nobody is home, it's on!!! An animal's bred in instinct is just as strong as food drive. It can't be completely eliminated to the point that I would feel comfortable in trusting my or someone else's life on it. That's exactly what happens with pit bulls. You're betting your life on that instinct not popping up even once. It ain't worth it. Good dogs that aren't bred to kill are too plentiful in the shelters to have to deal with that.
I had a German Wirehaired Pointer one time. I trained this dog to NOT eat from his dish until he was told it was ok. I could tell him to sit, leave the house, come back and he would still be sitting there.....food untouched. Yes, I tested that one time. I left for 2 hours and when I came back the food was untouched.
*edit* I had a *mutt* that was trained the same way. I could also tell that dog to sit in an unfenced yard, leave for as long as I wished, and no matter how badly he wanted to follow me, he wouldn't get up until I gave the ok. It really is all in how you train them.
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Wikipedia has some really good information on pit bulls as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull
A couple excerpts, I encourage folks to read this link and the one I provided above.
Research performed by GoodPooch.com director, Marjorie Darby, finds that dogs involved in attacks overwhelmingly have a known history of aggression, even though many dog owners deny or minimize this fact. The neighbours are usually a better source for documenting negative aspects of a dog's history, than its owner(s). As such, it is further evidence that dogs, including 'pit bulls', don't just "turn" on their owners. A followup to a CDC report on dog bite fatalities came to a similar conclusion.
From the History section:
The ancestors of modern pit bulls come from England. The English White Terrier, the Black and Tan Terrier and the Old English Bulldog are supposedly extinct breeds, this occasion stems from their forced retirement. However, in their own time the English White Terrier, the Black and Tan Terrier and the Bulldog were prized animals.
At one time every county in England had its own terrier. Many still exist, however, many have also come to pass or have mutated into a modern breed; such is the case for the English White Terrier and the Black and Tan, whose descendants include the bull-and-terriers, the Fox Terrier, and the Manchester Terrier. Terriers served a very real purpose in England. Vermin threatened people in more ways than just providing an unpleasant scare or as unwelcome guests; at their best, vermin ruined crops and damaged property; at their worst they served as a vehicle for fleas that carried the Black Plague. Dogs destroyed vermin efficiently and were easy animals to care for. As time went on the sports of badger and rat baiting — among others — caught on. It is from the terrier that pit bulls get their kind nature and juvenile behavior; it is also where the instinct to kill came from.
United States propaganda poster used during World War I depicting a Pit Bull
United States propaganda poster used during World War I depicting a Pit Bull
At the same time, Mastiff type dogs have existed in England for millennia. Their origins are somewhat uncertain, particularly because of myth. It can be assumed, however, that the Celts brought the Mastiff to Britain from the continent. It also known that the Normans introduced the Alaunt. Mastiffs of varying size existed in England for years, but it was not until the Renaissance that formal distinctions were made. These dogs were used in battle and for guarding, but they also served utilitarian purposes, such as farm work. Specifically, these dogs accompanied farmers into the fields to assist with bringing bulls in for breeding, castration, or slaughter. The dogs, known generally as bulldogs, protected the farmer by subduing the bull if it attempted to gore him. Typically a dog would do this by biting the bull on the nose and holding on until the bull submitted. Because of the nature of their job, bulldogs were bred to have powerful, muscular bodies, and the resolve to hold onto a violently-struggling bull, even when injured.
Eventually these dogs' purpose inspired the widespread practice of the bloody sports of bull-baiting and bear-baiting. In Elizabethan England, these spectacles were popular forms of entertainment. However, in 1835, bull-baiting and bear-baiting were abolished by Parliament as cruel, and the custom died out over the following years.
The sport of dog fighting, which could be carried out under clandestine measures, blossomed. Since Bulldogs proved too ponderous and disinterested in dog fighting, the Bulldogs were crossed to English White and Black and Tan Terriers. They were also bred to be intelligent and level-headed during fights and remain non-aggressive toward their handlers. Part of the standard for organized dog-fighting required that the match referee who is unacquainted with the dog be able to enter the ring, pick up a dog while it was engaged in a fight, and get the respective owner to carry it out of the ring without being bitten. Dogs that bit the referee were culled.
As a result, Victorian fighting dogs (Staffordshire Bull Terriers and, though less commonly used as fighters, English Bull Terriers) generally had stable temperaments and were commonly kept in the home by the gambling men who owned them.
During the mid-1800s, immigration to the United States from Ireland and England brought an influx of these dogs to America, mainly to Boston, where they were bred to be larger and stockier, working as farm dogs in the West as much as fighting dogs in the cities. The resulting breed, also called the American Pit Bull Terrier, became known as an "all-American" dog. Pit bull type dogs became popular as family pets for citizens who were not involved in dog-fighting or farming. In the early 1900s they began to appear in films, one of the more famous examples being Pete the Pup from the Our Gang shorts (later known as The Little Rascals)
Very few pit bulls today are bred for fighting. Most are bred as pets or show dogs (talking liscenced breeders). There are folks who let their dogs breed indiscriminately and there are folks who run kennels that are basically *puppy factories*. There are quite a few *urban myths* concerning pit bulls, one of them being that they are still being bred for fighting on a large scale. Dog fights have been illegal in most states since the 1860's, the last state outlawed dog fights in 1976. It is now a felony in 48 of 50 states.
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I don't get the guys who equate a gun with a pit bull. Or any dog.
A gun will not attack anyone on its own. dogs will.
All I ask is that you tough guys with the pits and rotts and big dogs... that you take a little responsibility.
If your dog bites anyone then it is fair that you get an assault charge against you.. if it maims or kills anyone then you should go down for murder or attempted murder in the 1st.
What is wrong with that?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't get the guys who equate a gun with a pit bull. Or any dog.
A gun will not attack anyone on its own. dogs will.
All I ask is that you tough guys with the pits and rotts and big dogs... that you take a little responsibility.
If your dog bites anyone then it is fair that you get an assault charge against you.. if it maims or kills anyone then you should go down for murder or attempted murder in the 1st.
What is wrong with that?
lazs
I don't believe that there is anyone on this thread that would disagree with you. From the beginning all i've argued about is the responsibility that owners have towards their dogs.
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All I ask is that you tough guys with the pits and rotts and big dogs... that you take a little responsibility.
Thats exactly what it's all about Lazs. Owners taking responsibility and training their dogs. I think it would be a good idea if owners were held responsible when their untrained dogs attack.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Wikipedia has some really good information on pit bulls as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull
A couple excerpts, I encourage folks to read this link and the one I provided above.
From the History section:
Very few pit bulls today are bred for fighting. Most are bred as pets or show dogs (talking liscenced breeders). There are folks who let their dogs breed indiscriminately and there are folks who run kennels that are basically *puppy factories*. There are quite a few *urban myths* concerning pit bulls, one of them being that they are still being bred for fighting on a large scale. Dog fights have been illegal in most states since the 1860's, the last state outlawed dog fights in 1976. It is now a felony in 48 of 50 states.
Well, at the top of that link is this: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed."
And the part you quoted says this:"This section does not cite its references or sources."
Oh, and btw, google pitbull fighting and you will find some of the info from that wiki link that has been c&p'd from other sites
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pit bulls sometimes dont go crazy cause of bad training or anything of that matter sometimes pitbulls just flip for no reason
for instance talking to my neighbor about this story he said he had a pit bull that was abandoned right in front of a store and he brought it home and it got along fine with their other dog (forgot what type) but he said after something like 10 years the pit bull snapped one day and attacked their other dog then went after his mother she got out but the other dog was laying in the house bleeding to death and animal control refused to go in
when his dad got home he grabbed his gun walked in grabbed the one dog put him in the car and put the pit bull into the trunk drove to the vet said try to save this one put the pit bull down
and that pit bull was apparently a great nice pet till one day it just snapped
my point sometimes it aint the owner that messes up the dog
just my 2 cents in a conversation that stopped 6 days ago
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Another local pit bull attack yesterday. Bit the 9 year-old in the face multiple times.
"Never had any problems before," said Franklin County Animal Control corporal Joe Rock. "(They) stated it was always good with the children and this came out of nowhere, according to the grandma."
http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2007-05-11-0004.html
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yep.. I don't care what you own but I am sick of these a holes all crying that it wasn't their fault when their insane frigging dog attacked someone... "accidents will happen".
Nope.. if their nutjob powerful dog attacks and maims or kills someone then the owner should be thrown in a pit and have police dogs attack him until he is dead.
maybe he can then experiance some of the terror his pos dog inflicted on some little girl or other helpless person before he dies.
lazs
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Originally posted by Elfie
I can't find the guidelines for how much aggression a dog can display w/o being disqualified.
attacking and killing the judge usually does it