Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Puck on May 03, 2007, 09:56:58 AM
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I was putting around in an IL-2 last night, and ended up putting about 1 rocket and an entire clip of 40mm into a firefly (this is exaggeration; figure 25-30% of the 40mm hit, if that). All I managed to do is take out a track and the engine.
I figure there are three possibilities:
1. Firefly armor really is that good
2. The IL-2 isn't as good as its reputation
3. I suck
Of the three the last is most likely, but I'm curious now. I've had all kinds of trouble killing M4s in an Il-2.
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IL2 has 23mm guns, Hurr2D has 40mm guns, but no rockets.
EDIT: Oh, and I was in a firefly with an IL2 repeatedly strafing me, over and over. He died (I shot him, he crashed, something) and came back twice... He never did kill me, a camping tiger did.
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Might be related -- heard several people complaining that something seemed different about the strength of the IL2 guns. They claimed to be unable to damage any tank anymore, and another guys said he put 15 rounds of 23mm into an aircraft that went on its merry way . . .
Personally, I have not noticed any trouble, but I don't play as often as some.
So, good armor or weapon damage glitch? Curious as to whether you are just not noticing a similar problem with other targets.
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I unloaded an entire ammo load of a 190 A8 (with the 30mm load-out) into a Sherman today and got nothing.
I don't think I even tracked it.
I definately saw big sprites on the tracks, hit it front and back, side to side and on top.
Nothing.
I then proceeded to put 15 or 16 37mm rounds from a Yak9T into it...still nothing.
I definately hit with a large percentage of all the ammunition. Short bursts at the calibrated cannon distance repeatedly... In the end a tank killed it and I got the assist! lol.
The guy came back and tried to camp the base from inside a hangar, so I flew a Hurricane IID through it and killed him :rofl
Bet he wasn't expecting that
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The 30mm on the 190a8 are not AP rounds. The only thing you'll do is track it. If you're lucky. 20mm do jack vs tanks, you probably know.
Only 2 planes in this game have AP tank rounds: The Hurr2D and the IL2.
No other plane should be able to kill a tank, if I recall. Not 30mm, not 37mm, not 20mm. If you do you got REALLY lucky.
IL2 and Hurr2d only, and the latter really sucks.
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No, the HO dweebs always die, but I can't kill ANYTHING on the ground with an IL2. Well. Maybe an M3. I get "kills", but only because I put a bunch of cannon rounds in it before someone comes along and lays an egg on them. I've tried firing ONLY cannon to make sure the sprites were cannon as well. The only way I can get a real kill is to drop bombs/rockets on the target. Guns are useless against armor for me, at least. The best I've ever done is tracking a tank and MAYBE knocking out the engine, but that takes ten passes and all the cannon rounds.
Not sure if that's a reflection on the armor, the gun, or the driver. Just an observation.
AKDream, the scum sucking weasel, has killed my IL2 with an M4 main gun out past 1k. It's embarrassing. Makes me wish *I* were a scum sucking weasel!
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MG108 30mm and NS-37 37mm on Yak-9T are both HE and shouldn't have any effect on a tank.
If we had the IL-2 with the NS-37s, then it would be with AP ammo on that aircraft.
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Ah, I see.
Is it an oddity then that I got a kill on a Sherman whilst making two quick passes on it as I was RTBing in a damaged G6? Sure, I did not finish it, a friendly tank killed it as I was on final, but i still got the kill for two passes with 3 x 20mm.
If the 20mm rounds don't do anything, is it logical that I get a kill for it?
Also, I seem to recall killing a few Panzers and I think I even got a Tiger in the Yak 9T. No assisstance from friendlies with the tanks either, I was the only one defending a base from some GV porkers.
Should this be possible with no help and no ord?
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Basically you stole the kill :rofl
You didn't do anything to it, but you "hit it" and that was taken into account when the server awarded a kill.
EDIT: P.S. There's no way in Hades a Yak9T can kill a Tigr. It won't even hurt a panzer in most circumstances.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Basically you stole the kill :rofl
You didn't do anything to it, but you "hit it" and that was taken into account when the server awarded a kill.
EDIT: P.S. There's no way in Hades a Yak9T can kill a Tigr. It won't even hurt a panzer in most circumstances.
Yep I think it was Pyro who said the tracks can soak up ALOT of damage. So firing those big cannon (30mm, 37mm) will award you quite a bit of "damage points" on the tank but never really kill it outright. Maybe that Tiger flipped over or he decided to tower and you got the kill? Other than bombs, the rockets off of the 190F8 (PB1's) are the only way I have truely killed a tiger in game. They (the PB1's) are the only rockets to have true HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) warheads as far as I know. The Russians had some HEAT rockets but we dont have them in game :( They are the BRS-82 and -132, we only have the RS-82 and -132, standard HE warheads. They also had the ROSF-82 and -132 rockets that had high a explosive fragmentation warhead. It would be nice to get more rocket options in game ;)
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Haha, yeah I know I stole the kill :rofl I was just wondering how that happens.
Zestorer provided a logical explanation for it though, as they were low, side-on attacks, so the tracks must have soaked up the damage.
Seems logical with the tiger explanation too.
I'll keep this in mind in the future
:aok
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I dont know if 23mm was changed in latest patches or not, but historically IL-2 with 23mm VYas couldnt significantly hurt medium tanks. It works only agains unarmored and slightly armored vehicles like light tanks.
23mm's effectiveness against armors in AH is gameplay feature mostly.
P.S. IL-2 need PTABs (anti tank cumulative aviabombs) which was most effective IL-2's anti tank weapon.
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I go into say TT with a a6m2 or spit1 and strafe, usally you get assists but you always seem to get a kill or two.
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Originally posted by Oleg
I dont know if 23mm was changed in latest patches or not, but historically IL-2 with 23mm VYas couldnt significantly hurt medium tanks. It works only agains unarmored and slightly armored vehicles like light tanks.
23mm's effectiveness against armors in AH is gameplay feature mostly.
P.S. IL-2 need PTABs (anti tank cumulative aviabombs) which was most effective IL-2's anti tank weapon.
So...the best tank buster on the eastern front couldn't bust tanks? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering how it got such a wicked reputation and why Comrade Joe would insist on pushing IL-2 production at the expense of fighters that used the same engine. Bombs and rockets?
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Originally posted by Puck
So...the best tank buster on the eastern front couldn't bust tanks? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering how it got such a wicked reputation and why Comrade Joe would insist on pushing IL-2 production at the expense of fighters that used the same engine. Bombs and rockets?
There was much more to hit than only tanks. Gun emplacements, troop concentrations, command posts, light tanks, halftracks, trucks and the plethora of german horse-drawn transport carts...
The wicked reputation came from numbers, heavy armor that enabled it to withstand severe damage by ack & fighters, the ability to wreak havoc on those targets I mentioned above. And last but not least the fierce determination of it's pilots...
And like Oleg pointed out, shooting with guns was only one method to bust tanks, and actually a quite rare one too (when looking at the whole war). For example many people tend to overestimate numbers & overall impact of the 37mm equipped Ju87G, but in fact only around 210 were build from dezember 1943 to july 1944, compared to about 5000 "conventional" Ju 87 versions, not to forget all those ground attack versions of the Fw 190.
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Also, don't forget those Ju87Gs armed with 37mm guns often used them against unarmed river barges, "soft" truck convoys, and all manner of non-tank-related targets.
Guns vs GVs are overrated. Take anything over 100kg and you can pop a panzer. Anything over 250lbs and you can pop a tigr.
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Not really Krusty.
I dropped two 500lb bombs from my Mossie's bomb bay on a Tiger, one hit the tank directly (hit sprite) and the other blew up about half a Tiger's width from the Tiger. Damage to the Tiger? Nada, nothing.
Eskimo (the Tiger's driver) did exclaim "That was loud!" though.
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wishing for a sencond version of IL-2.... IL-2m3, my book says it have 37mm cannons along with 8x rockets, and 200 hollow charge anti-tank guns.
wish for a second*
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Okay, you're right... usually takes a pair of 2000lbs several times over to kill a Tigr, but in THEORY a 250 lb can kill it. Heh.
But I've popped panzers multiple times using the 100kg bomb on the IL2, so that part's right.
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I wish after a while of shooting a panzer with my 20mm rounds from my C-hog it finally took out the turret. Only because there was no way a panzer could withstand 3 re-upps from a C-hog (BTW, I hit 90% of the time in those 3 re-upps)
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I killed a Tiger with 2 500lbers from an A-20 yesterday... But that is the exception rather than the rule. For me anyway, tigers are usually indestructible and made out of titanium.
The IL-2 guns are somewhat effective for me. I was able to knock out the engines of numerous Panzers and M4's during a GV raid yesterday, but I had to come in below treetop level, in the nape of the earth and wait till i was 400yds or closer away, and at a perfect 90 degrees to the side of the tank before firing. Even then it took 2 or 3 passes before results.
The only beef I have is with the flaks. An F6 or 110G can take out my turrent in 2 or 3 pings, while i pummel a flak with the 23mm AP from an IL2 and does nothing. Solid hit sprites and flat angles and all. Probably "lag" or some other computer voodoo thats never on my side in that situation.
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Originally posted by LancerVT
The only beef I have is with the flaks. An F6 or 110G can take out my turrent in 2 or 3 pings, while i pummel a flak with the 23mm AP from an IL2 and does nothing. Solid hit sprites and flat angles and all. Probably "lag" or some other computer voodoo thats never on my side in that situation.
F6 and 110G have an advantage in this situation: sheer volume of fire. The turret has no top so about any gun can pop it. But it's important that the angle is steep, not flat. At flat angles you will hit the turret's armored walls.
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Originally posted by Puck
So...the best tank buster on the eastern front couldn't bust tanks? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering how it got such a wicked reputation and why Comrade Joe would insist on pushing IL-2 production at the expense of fighters that used the same engine. Bombs and rockets?
IL-2 was best attack plane because of number of advantages such as protection, armament, flight characteristics and so. It can stay over frontline long enough to support troops even inside enemies AA range.
IL-2's main antitank weapon was PTABs not guns. One plane can carry ~200 bombs (1.5 - 2.5 kg each) and single hit would destroy any tank.
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Then let's hope the "perked ordnance" thingy we're all waiting for, brings some useful gifts to the IL-2 for use against some of the more heavily armoured tanks.
I wouldn't mind those AT bombs and 37mm AP cannons for the IL-2. Maybe 10 perks for each? :D
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10 perks for each bomb, 2000 perk per load? :O
Is it little too much? :D
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Originally posted by Oleg
10 perks for each bomb, 2000 perk per load? :O
Is it little too much? :D
Nah. 10 perks per ROUND!
Where in Russia, Oleg? It's a reasonably large country.
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I cant even count now how many times I hit a Shermie with my Tiger 3, 4,5 or more times and they just bounce off but one shot from the shermie at 2300 yrds and my Tiger is toast. I wish they never put these things in the game. Total BS. :furious
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Originally posted by Karnak
Not really Krusty.
I dropped two 500lb bombs from my Mossie's bomb bay on a Tiger, one hit the tank directly (hit sprite) and the other blew up about half a Tiger's width from the Tiger. Damage to the Tiger? Nada, nothing.
Eskimo (the Tiger's driver) did exclaim "That was loud!" though.
Wonder if we'll ever get the 60lb rockets carried by both the Mossie and Tiffy instead of the pathetic 'generic' ones we have now.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Wonder if we'll ever get the 60lb rockets carried by both the Mossie and Tiffy instead of the pathetic 'generic' ones we have now.
CC that Kev....
It would be nice to have some options in the hanger other than the "generic" ord that we have now.
Plus I have tried to contact someone from HT (I think Pyro) but didn't get any response back from my questions about the rockets in game.
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The firefly armour should not be this strong. Only the gun was upgraded. I agree with the IL2's being different. They just don't pack the same punch.
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the firefly armor was upgraded it was not just a sherman with a bigger gub
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Originally posted by Zippy41
The firefly armour should not be this strong. Only the gun was upgraded. I agree with the IL2's being different. They just don't pack the same punch.
Strange. How can a cannon weight 6 tons more than the previous one? Guess the thicker armor is just optical illusion, too. Well, libraries and searching for information is overrated, anyway.
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Originally posted by Oleg
IL-2's main antitank weapon was PTABs not guns. One plane can carry ~200 bombs (1.5 - 2.5 kg each) and single hit would destroy any tank.
A single 2.5kg bomb would destroy any tank? I find that hard to believe, unless it's some kind of specially designed tank-buster-bomb or something :eek:
If that doesn't work, a single hit of the Stuka's 1800kg bomb would do the job :)
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Originally posted by frank3
A single 2.5kg bomb would destroy any tank? I find that hard to believe, unless it's some kind of specially designed tank-buster-bomb
It is. It's a shaped-charge bomb.
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Welcome to the Land Of Myth And Legends...
Where to start.
*The Firefly was not up armored, it was a standard Sherman V with a 17 Pounder gun installed in the turret. Find any source you want, it was not up armored.
*Tanks could not withstand direct hits from bombs. Here is the rub though: it was exceedingly difficult in WW2 to hit a small target like a tank, with a bomb while coming in at 250mph, which is why anti-armor cluster bombs were used later, and rockets, and cannon. A direct hit from a bomb would in all likelyhood disable or destroy a tank, *IF* you could land one right on it.
*The IL-2 and Typhoon, and P-47, and Fw190Fs, ect, were used primarily to hit "soft" targets: Infantry, artillery, convoys, trucks, half-tracks, armored cars, buildings, airfields, ect. They did attack tanks, yes, but that was not as common, and they didnt destroy near the # that some folks think. They tended to hit soft skinned vehicles MUCH more than tanks. Tank units relied on a vast plethora of support vehicles and men in the field (they needed fuel, ammo, all kinds of support vehicles), so, yes, an "armored unit" would suffer from air attack, but the actual # of tanks destroyed outright by air attack just wasnt that high.
So, back to the IL-2, did it just show up and strafe and the MBT goes boom? no, not really. Tanks were not easy to knock out, they were hard to hit, and heavily armored. Immobilizing one was probably more common than destroying it.
AC like the Hurricane IID, Ju87G, Hs-129, probably had the best record against MBTs (when they found some to shoot) from direct fire from AP shells fired from 37-40mm guns.
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Originally posted by frank3
A single 2.5kg bomb would destroy any tank? I find that hard to believe, unless it's some kind of specially designed tank-buster-bomb or something :eek:
Yes, it would. And it was "specially designed tank-buster-bomb". "PTAB" mean "anti-tank avia bomb" with cumulative (hollow) charge, say like grenades for RPG-7. It didnt blow tank to pieces like 1000lb but burn through armour causes fuel fire, ammunition explosion or so. Most tanks hited by PTABs was burned down. It was simply most effective WW2 anti-tank weapon.
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Wow that sounds awesome, and it could carry 200 of those bomblets? In a cluster-bomb or something?
Any pictures of it?
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Originally posted by frank3
Wow that sounds awesome, and it could carry 200 of those bomblets? In a cluster-bomb or something?
Any pictures of it?
192 in 4 clasters or up to 220 in bulk. They drop all bombs at once, when dropped from 200m altitude there was about 1 bomb per 15m^2.
I think i saw pics with IL-2 dropping PTABs, but i cannt find it now. Found photo of Yak-9B instead.
PTAB design:
http://www.battlefield.ru/pics/ptab.gif
Yak-9B dropping PTABs:
http://www.okondr.mail333.com/Yak9b.JPG
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I have put 37mm (Yak 9T) and 40mm (Hurri 2D) rounds into the back, top, and sides of a Sherman to no effect whatsoever. I did get the kill with the Yak 9T when the Panzer the Sherman was dueling eventually took him out, which did not exactly endear me to my team mate considering I'd done nothing except light him up with a dozen or so hit sprites.
Can the Hurri and Yak still kill tanks? I can remember popping the turrets on Panzers easily in earlier revisions of AH2, but haven't been able to do anything from any angle of late.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I have put 37mm (Yak 9T) and 40mm (Hurri 2D) rounds into the back, top, and sides of a Sherman to no effect whatsoever. I did get the kill with the Yak 9T when the Panzer the Sherman was dueling eventually took him out, which did not exactly endear me to my team mate considering I'd done nothing except light him up with a dozen or so hit sprites.
Can the Hurri and Yak still kill tanks? I can remember popping the turrets on Panzers easily in earlier revisions of AH2, but haven't been able to do anything from any angle of late.
- SEAGOON
The Yak is not suited to hunt tanks. It's cannon shoots HE rounds, not AP. Many people claim to have killed a lot of tanks in them, but I have yet to see any proof. they just get the credit the same way you did, but any plane in game can get GV "kills" that way ;)
The Hurri D can still take out any tank in this game. I busted a lot Panzer, Shermans, T34 and even two Tigers this tour so far.
Against the Firefly, the close range level attack from behind doesnt work as well as against the panzer. Easiest way to stop it is a steep diving attack. Aim for the engine compartment just behind the turret. Shoot between D400 and D200.
EDIT:
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8460/ahss28rge9.jpg)
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Seagoon, I've disabled a M4 Sherman turret with a Hurri2D. I distinctly remember hitting the spot right between the rear turret and the chasis, while coming down from about a 40degrees angle to parallel.
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Anyone have any comments on the T34 HVAP rounds on the Firefly, its turret and its main body?
I have been persevering with this HVAP round to little effect so far.
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Hi Tilt,
I can't comment on the Firefly, but I'd encourage you to do some offline testing with the HVAP against the Tiger, you'll find that at close range it pentetrates the back armor and side turret armor, and that at very close range will actually pentetrate the flat portion of the front armor. This is a major improvement on the old AP which was useless against anything but the tracks of the Tiger.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Krusty
Okay, you're right... usually takes a pair of 2000lbs several times over to kill a Tigr, but in THEORY a 250 lb can kill it. Heh.
But I've popped panzers multiple times using the 100kg bomb on the IL2, so that part's right.
I carry 2 1000's on an F6F-5. I can take a Tiger if I use both. I only need 1 for anything else.
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A tiger will die from a single 500lb bomb, 1K with an approx hit.
I can kill anything with the IL2 guns only, except T34's, the secret is to start strafing at D800 flyin 10 feets high, or near a 45 degrees dive. Avoid shooting on the front of the tank its a pure waist of ammo.
pzr's just go boom:t