Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Neubob on May 03, 2007, 10:08:48 PM
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Quick question for the revolver experts out there....
I'm looking to pick up a .44 in the next couple weeks. Not a carry gun, or something I would use for home defense(got a 12 gauge for that). More for the range, general recreation, and something pretty to look at and hold. I prefer stainless, 6-8 inches, and I like the more modern-looking frames. Rubber grips and muzzle brakes don't offend my eye. I'd like to keep it under $700, but am realistic as far as these things go.
Any suggestions?
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Dan Wesson, if you can find one. Ruger Redhawk. Colt Anaconda. Beware the Smith and Wesson 29 and 629. Some of them are not real good, they just weren't real strong (I used up a few of them, they do not really like real upper end magnum ammunition, they develop end shake and they also rotate backwards when you fire them). Not much else if "modern" means double action.
Ruger Redhawk will be the easiest to find and afford. The Dan Wesson will be the hardest to find, as CZ bought Dan Wesson and they only make the Dan Wesson revolvers in short runs, rarely. The only Dan Wesson revolver they regularly produce is the 445 SuperMag. Great gun, but expensive to buy, and more expensive to shoot. The Colt Anaconda is hard to find, and most likely out of your price range. But the Anacondas I've seen were built to the Colt Python standard, meaning they are a tight, hand fitted gun. The NEW Smith and Wesson 629 is decent, as they have changed hands, and improved them somewhat. However, in my experience, they are not as rugged as the others, simply by design.
I suppose it is a matter of taste, but most 44 owners I know prefer full sized wood, micarta, or stag type grips. The reason being that the "rubber" tends to "grab" your hand, where the hard grips tend to rotate through it.
Porting and muzzle brakes make the damned things real loud, and this coming from a guy who likes loud guns. My 6" Dan Wesson 44VH does not have any real serious recoil, even with near redline loads with either light or heavy bullets. The 44 tends to push and roll in recoil, it is not as sharp and snappy as a 357.
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It isnt stainless but I bought my S&W model 29 barely used for $400.
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Double action, I'd go with Ruger Redhawk
Single action... My choice is Ruger Super Blackhawk, Ruger Vaquero, or any of Uberti's cowboy action guns in .44 magnum.
Have owned a Super Blackhawk since 1963 with no problems whatsoever, other than a general recall to replace the transfer bar so you could safely carry 6 rounds. And Ruger paid for the postage, and repairs.
Added a Vaquero and Uberti in .45 long colt which is my prefered hiking protection.
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Mine was Ruger Redhawk 7 1/2 inch barrel.
Large black rubber Pachmyr grips.
Sweet shooter. Used it for deer hunting. Too heavy for much else.
Need to be careful using for home defense.
The bullets will easily penetrate the walls of a house and you could end up wiping out your neighbors.
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I have a Super Blackhawk and a Redhawk, I prefer the blackhawk. I have shot a Dan Wesson and it is a fine shooting gun but it's all going to depend on personal preference. I shot my friends guns before I made my buys. Try to find someone who has each and see if you can get them to let you knock off a few rounds and see how you like them. Thats what I did. Our local indoor range has a shyte load of rentals ranging from AK's, rugers, colts, you name it... Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. If you have a range nearby that offers rentals that might be a possibility for you as well. Although rental guns generally wont be in the best shape it can be worth the effort.
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I agree with everything the hilts said.
I just gave my Dan wesson 44 to my son.. it had a 4 and 8 inch barrel.. It is a great gun One of the most accurate 44's I have ever owned but..
I love the Ruger redhawk. I have a 71/2 and I have another that I had cut to 4" This is perfect for me I had the hammer despured and I have real stag grips on it. I also have a super blackhawk that has over 50,000 rounds through it.
I also agree that porting makes em too loud... it is said that it increases the sound event time which defeats hearing protectors and causes hearing damage.
The Redhawk is one tough gun.. it can be a little rough... I run about 2,000 jakedted rounds through em and that smoothes out the bore then I run almost only cast slugs in the 250 grain range at about 1100-1300 fps.
I guess my idea of a 4 inch redhawk was not so bad as I see that ruger is making one now.
I agree that the Smiths can be fragile.. they are very accurate tho... as is the anaconda.
I am looking into the Dan wesson 445 and a 4 inch barrel.. you can shoot 44 mag ammo out of it. I hope it is no bigger than their 44.
I would say that the dan wesson is at the limit for size for me... I think that the ruger in 4 inch is perfect. The colt and taurus are clumsy to me.
If you shoot the 44 as much as we do you need to reload. A good all around 250 grain 44 will only cost about $4.50 a box compared to $20 off the shelf.
lazs
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Lazs, the Dan Wesson 445 SuperMag is bigger and heavier than the Dan Wesson 44. If you feel a 6" model 44VH is on the heavy side, you will probably not like a 445 SuperMag. The longer cylinder and frame combined with some beefing up adds a good bit of weight. I'd like to have one, but they're bringing $750 and up.
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I'm a real .44MAG fan, as I understand Virgil and lazs are. I agree with them in general. My personal favorite is the Ruger Super Blackhawk 7 1/2" with Pachmayr rubber grips. I alternate between iron sights and an Aimpoint red dot sight on that pistol, both have their merits.
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yeah... haven't handled one but I thought that one in 4 inch might be neat for bear country... I really don't need it and think that the dan wesson 44 in 4 inch is right at the limit of size and weight.
I have very large hands so that is not the problem.. to me, it is balance and practicality.. The ruger I cut down is pretty handy.. a true alternative to grabbing a rifle... you can pack it without too much trouble. with the cut down hammer and stag grips it is smallish.. in the 4 inch model 29 range.
I kinda hate it tho when someone asks us "experts". I don't feel that I am an expert.
I am a very interested amature with a lot of experience with about 20 44 mags over the years and maybe a quarter of a million rounds of which most of em were my reloads... I shot a couple thousand a month for maybe ten years now... not so much, but there are 1,000 loaded rounds on the shelf in my reloading room and a couple thousand slugs waiting. I have settled for two or three loadings for my 44's one more for my brother.
250 clsw and 240 jhp slugs. Accurate arms and 296 powder... may play with some others than 296... my 4 and 5 inch guns love aa#5 which gives a good cheap load at around 1200 fps according to the chronograph I use.
This is compared to a .45acp that comes out of my kimber at 830 fps for a 230 grain load.
Too bad on the dan wesson... I would by a 445 in a sec if it were the old 44 frame.
lazs
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I am going to presume most of us are, or have been hunters of big game... and that you all realize the rule of thumb is: practice, Practice, PRACTICE with your weapon until it becomes an extension of your physical self.
Now I want to sidetrack to Home Defense by summing it up in two words.
[size-3]Frangible Ammunition[/size]. More commonly known as glaser, or hydro-shock for pistols.
Why those types of rounds? Quite simple realy, as Blooz stated, normal rounds from 9mm up tend to keep on keeping on after they penetrate the body, a wall, or some other semi-rigid object. Frangible ammo disintegrates to fragments on impact, distributing maximum foot pounds in a relatively small area, without retaining the "blow through" factor.
So if you have family in the next room, neighbors across the way, the bullet will rarely, if ever, leave the target zone of impact. If it does, it never leaves that zone intact enough to be of mortal threat. (okay even a BB at velocity can kill, but that is an extremely rare exception.)
I prefer the Mossberg .20 guage pump with 000 buck for home defense, with the .45 Kimber COP for back up.
Now about training. Get it! Get it as often as you can afford it! If there is no 'combat range' available, ask the local Chief of Police/Sheriff. Check around for any Law Enforcement Citizen programs that allow ride alongs, and show you the basics of law dogging. Or, if none of this is available, join one of those "Action" shooter clubs. IPSC (personally despise these guys because they shoot technology, npt the gun out the box), National Practical Shooters*something* (these guys shoot straight out the box with minor tuning), Isaac Walton League, NRA, Single Action Shooters Society (cowboys) and so on.
Or, you could just practice for any type of situation at home... ALONE and unloaded.
*meh, I talk too much* Back on topic.
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my redhawk is loaded with hydroshoks at all times in the house with 2 speedloaders of hydroshoks.
Nothing wrong with a 44 mag for defense. It is also the most fun handgun their is for plinking at all ranges.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
my redhawk is loaded with hydroshoks at all times in the house with 2 speedloaders of hydroshoks.
Nothing wrong with a 44 mag for defense. It is also the most fun handgun their is for plinking at all ranges.
lazs
Didn't say there was anything wrong with the proper load in any weapon of home defense. I think the .44 needing 18 rounds is a bit of overkill inside the house, unless you expect a squad to invade your home. More suited for concealed carry with that much ammo.
That's why I like the shotgun with pistol back-up method. If nothing else, the shotgun makes a great club, or if you have a bayonet attachment, a dandy spear.
First line of defense anywhere is personal presence. What makes the badguys believe you mean bidness is the sound of that slide jacking forth.
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I like the look of the Taurus Raging Bull. I heard what you said about the clumziness, Lasz, and was hoping you might elaborate. I believe in the concept that you get what you pay for, so there must be a reason they're cheaper. Still curious as to the performance though. The chamber length seems to be an issue.
Home defense is pretty much out for this thing. I live in an apartment with very thin walls, and have a mossberg 500 in case anybody is stupid enough to assume I own anything worth breaking and entering for.
And another question that will show my ignorance....
How do revolvers in general deal with the issue of gasses leaking between the chamber and breach? I've always wondered how compression is maintained in the absence of some sort of pressure-proof seal. High speed photography shows some flame coming from this part of the gun at the moment of firing, but the vast majority still comes out the muzzle. Do the different brands deal with this phenomenon differently?
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For DA shooting I still prefer the S&W. The Ruger has a far stronger frame and cylinder if you intend to use hot loads. I prefer to put pachmayer style rubber grips on my hard recoil revolvers. I like the feel and it helps mitigate the recoil on my rebuilt wrist.
Decide what you want to do with the gun, hunt, hot loads, plink, competition and so on then buy the gun that fits the majority of what you want to do. Make sure it's comfortable to your hand. A handgun is about as personal a weapon as you can get and if it doesn't fit you, you won't get the full use out of it. If it's not fun to shoot, you'll just leave it in the safe and use something else that is fun to you.
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Get the Desert Eagle .44 mag. Easier to shoot, less felt recoil, and looks wicked as heck. Just the sight of it scares the living crap outta liberals. :D
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Originally posted by Dago
Get the Desert Eagle .44 mag. Easier to shoot, less felt recoil, and looks wicked as heck. Just the sight of it scares the living crap outta liberals. :D
Luckily, where I live there are more fields for plinking than liberals.
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But what if its dark and the liberal cant see it?
shamus
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Ok... the taurus is clumsy to me because it has lousy balance in the hand which translates to poor pointing qualities.. I have big enough hands and am strong enough to one hand it but many won't. It feels wrong to me.
The cyl gap... tests have shown about a 30 fps drop when identical barrel length pistols and revolvers fire the same round in most cases... oddly... every once in a while the revolver shows gains over the semi auto.. I have no idea why. suffice it to say the gap plays very little part in velocity.
As for home defense and penetration... this is really where revolvers shine... You can have a 44 mag and not overpenetrate... so long as it is a revolver... glaser saftey slugs... MMM several other brands make devestating 44 mag ammo that will not overpenetrate if that is a worry. You can even shoot 44 special ammo in it.
If you had a desert eagle tho... you have to shoot a very narrow range of high powered jacketed slugs...
As I have said in the past.... the 44 mag revolver is probly the most versitile handgun available today... closely followed by the .357 revolver.. everything else falls short in several important categories in my opinion.
lazs
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I use cheap CCI Blazer 240 grain for practice (I don't have the time to reload anymore) and I use 240 grain Hydra-Shok rounds in the pistol and in 3 speed loaders Years ago, they used to make a 320 grain Hydra-Shok for the .44 but I haven't been able to find them again, I suppose they have been discontinued. I keep an extra speedloader with snakeshot for use when I go fishin'.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Luckily, where I live there are more fields for plinking than liberals.
I feel for yas keeping guns at home in fear of being broken in on. That must absolutely suck. I think I'm gonna pick up one of those Desert Eagles for the boat when I'm traveling (pirates). A very sexy man killer that is.
Oh, and I'm voting for Obama.
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But I though you were the pirate, swabbin all those poop decks! But yes, the eagle is a very sexy hand cannon, but a little bit of overkill if your going with the .50.
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Originally posted by Dadano
I feel for yas keeping guns at home in fear of being broken in on. That must absolutely suck. I think I'm gonna pick up one of those Desert Eagles for the boat when I'm traveling (pirates). A very sexy man killer that is.
Oh, and I'm voting for Obama.
Actually, my primary reason for getting any gun thus far has been recreation.
And if you have to vote for Obama, I feel for you too.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
...Years ago, they used to make a 320 grain Hydra-Shok for the .44 but I haven't been able to find them again, I suppose they have been discontinued. I keep an extra speedloader with snakeshot for use when I go fishin'.
Hit up some gunshows... I seen hydro-shocks at the last one here in VA the past week. Forget what they were asking though. ;/
While it all boils down to personal preference and comfort levels, I still feel the .45 ACP is best all around defense caliber, considering the ranges you will legally be engaging the target... God forbid you should have the need. Controllability, and knock-down/stay-down power being prime, over a variety of conditions, and with small hands, the .45 fits the bill for me. When I use the .44, I have to use gloves, even with the pachy grips, unless I use the .44 cal versus the Magnum loads. :(
Never tried the .40 cal before. Anyone have some data on that one, over the .45 ACP?
GLOCK? ewwww. Gimme a SIG, Kimber or Springfield any day.
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(Cue commercial for Springfield XD .45 ACP)
As for .44 magnum and other BIG revolvers, a line from a famous movie comes to mind: You're a better man than I, GUNga Din (as in big noise)!
Odee, I like the .40 a lot, more than the .357 sig for some reason, but much prefer the .45 ACP. Just a few more months until the Woodbridge gun range is rebuilt from the fire and you can rent a good variety of calibers to pinpoint your preferences.
I always thought I was a revolver guy but lately have had much more fun and satisfaction with pistols.
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Originally posted by Dadano
I feel for yas keeping guns at home in fear of being broken in on. That must absolutely suck. I think I'm gonna pick up one of those Desert Eagles for the boat when I'm traveling (pirates). A very sexy man killer that is.
Oh, and I'm voting for Obama.
Lame. On both your fishing expedition and choice to a political...snork...candidate .
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Originally posted by Halo
(Cue commercial for Springfield XD .45 ACP)
As for .44 magnum and other BIG revolvers, a line from a famous movie comes to mind: You're a better man than I, GUNga Din (as in big noise)!
Odee, I like the .40 a lot, more than the .357 sig for some reason, but much prefer the .45 ACP. Just a few more months until the Woodbridge gun range is rebuilt from the fire and you can rent a good variety of calibers to pinpoint your preferences.
I always thought I was a revolver guy but lately have had much more fun and satisfaction with pistols.
Cool deal Halo... We should hook up when it's done, or maybe get in some skeet while we wait.
Son got some good film of that night. PW News picked one of them up, but not sure if they ran it.
Amen to the .45. Saved my bacon more than once. Looking for a nice Kimber, or Springfield, but rely on the SP-101 for the moments I travel. Always found it difficult to jam a revolver for some reason :lol
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Originally posted by LePaul
Lame. On both your fishing expedition and choice to a political...snork...candidate .
I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.
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Originally posted by Dadano
I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.I'm not going to hijack the thread.
You just did... In true Lib fashion. :rofl :rofl :rofl
Libertarian, for Personal Responsibility! ohhrah!
BOT[/i] I find the .22 Ruger AST pistol using long rifle (CCI Stinger's) another good choice for home defense ...as long as you can hit the target. You would be amazed at how fast you can drop someone with one well placed shot, or 3 rapid ones center torso. Plus, the bullet isn't very likely to go through 2 layers of plaster board, if your concern is family/neighbor safety at that point.
Fantastic plinker, low LOW cost, and it comes in a .45 Springfield grip flavor too.
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The 44 mag is really a great all around handgun. I think that it is at the top of the power range for handguns that make sense. If you own one you really need to be into reloading ammo tho to get the full benifiet of the gun and its flexibility.
Their are a number of reasons that the gun is not for everyone tho. It is a very accurate round and the handguns for it are more accurate than any of us can hold at ranges out to 300 yards or more but.. Not everyone likes revolvers and not everyone can handle recoil.. I have seen guys who think a .45 acp has recoil and that it is at about their limit for recoil tolerance.. they will never like the 44. To me.. a .45 has no real recoil.
If you don't reload you will be stuck with whatever you can buy off the shelf and at prices that exceed $20 a box.
If you feel that the only real defense handgun has to shoot at least 9 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger... it won't be for you.
If you never shoot at anything past about 50 yards with a handgun... who cares?
And lastly... if you never shoot with anyone who owns and is good with a 44 you will never know the difference... ignorance is bliss.
lazs
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Thanks for the responses, guys.
I grew up around pistols, but am trying to branch out with this one. I remember my first exposure to a .44 Mag at an indoor range in Inglewood, CA, and how my first impression had nothing to do with the severity of the recoil, and everything to do with the accuracy, consistency and solid feel of a nice, well-built revolver.
Now, living in Central PA, there's a lot more opportunity to take something like this outside and have some fun with it. I'd be cheating myself if I didn't use the opportunity before moving back to an urban area in a couple years.
So, thanks again for the discussion. Hopefully, in a couple years, we'll be able to talk about some high-end precision rifles...
Anyone know anything about .338 lapua?
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Final comment on the .44 mag from me...
Get some regular .44 special ammo, not the magnum and practice, practice practice. then interchange Mag and Special, roll the cylinder and enjoy the difference. It should help you learn not to flinch when squeezing off. I know it did for me with the .357 and the .44.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Thanks for the responses, guys.
I grew up around pistols, but am trying to branch out with this one. I remember my first exposure to a .44 Mag at an indoor range in Inglewood, CA, and how my first impression had nothing to do with the severity of the recoil, and everything to do with the accuracy, consistency and solid feel of a nice, well-built revolver.
Now, living in Central PA, there's a lot more opportunity to take something like this outside and have some fun with it. I'd be cheating myself if I didn't use the opportunity before moving back to an urban area in a couple years.
So, thanks again for the discussion. Hopefully, in a couple years, we'll be able to talk about some high-end precision rifles...
Anyone know anything about .338 lapua?
Where abouts in Central PA?
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Good ole' Carlisle.
Home of Dickinson College, The Army War College, Penn State Dickinson School of Law(Carlisle Campus) and not much else.
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Nice. You're about an hour and ten minutes away from me. I'm up at University Park right now.
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You've been there for a while though, haven't you?
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Yup. Still got another year though. At the time it seemed like a good idea to sign up for a 5 year program. :cry
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Well, if it helps any, my tuition checks are going to the same institution, and I too am cursing the day I made the decision.
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I would not tell anyone with a 44 mag to buy 44 special ammo unless you will never reload. the cases are so close that they make reloading more difficult.
You can load 44 mags to 44 special like recoil but there is no reason. 240 or 250 grain lead slugs at 1000 fps are not in the least uncomfortable to shoot and are more accurate and far more powerful than any 44 special load.
Why have a lot of expensive and useless 44 special brass lying around and why make your gun that much harder to clean by using 44 special ammo in it?
44 specials are almost as expensive as 44 mags and not near as powerful... 44 mag brass will last almost forever at 1000 fps.
38/357 is a somewhat different thing.
I shot a box of 44 mag reloads at 1200 fps with a 250 kieth clsw slug yesterday and will shoot another box in a few hours. The gun is a cut down to 4" Ruger redhawk with stag grips. The recoil is very managable. I have the sights set for 50 yards and it will shoot flat out to 100.
I was shooting at some 5 inch long 6" PVC pipe that is/was about 1/4" thick a 45 will make a hole in it and crack it.. The 44 makes a spray of plastic bits when it hits at the 50 yard distance or so that I am shooting at.
Recoil is in your head. A 5'2" woman I know thinks the 44 does not feel bad at all and a 6'2" guy at 260 lbs I know is so scared by the 44 that he actually closes his eyes as he fires.
lazs
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Lazs, you ever see anything like this happen first hand?
results of a doubleload (http://iris.nyit.edu/~bithead/anaconda/)
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I cracked the cylinder of a ruger superblackhawk with some loads of AA #5 at max. Ruger fixed the gun for free even when I told em what happened.
What happened was... my load was within sane limits but.. I had a lot of 8 lbs of AA#5 that was bad.. I called the factory and they said to send em some loaded rounds.. the rounds were way over even tho they were correctly loaded... I had also trimmed the brass to minimum length which did not help.
I had to take apart 300 rounds or so. My redhawk was not damaged but I had to beat the brass from the 2 rounds I fired out of the cyl.
In all my years of reloading this is the worst that has happened to me. A friend was injured by a factory ought six remington round that blew up his gun and that was later recalled.
The shooting sports are less dangerous than golf but nothing is completely safe.
lazs
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I'm not Lazs, but I'll answer that. I have seen one bulged and the top strap bent.
The story is ABSOLUTELY correct. What happened is EXACTLY the reason I NEVER use fast burning powders in large cases, because they use very small charges and it is EXTREMELY easy to load a double charge. I always use a powder and a charge that takes up well over half the case, so that a double charge will over flow. My other habit is that when I drop a powder charge into a case, I top it with a bullet IMMEDIATELY.
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I still use a single stage press and bullets are seated right after I dump a charge into the case.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would not tell anyone with a 44 mag to buy 44 special ammo unless you will never reload. the cases are so close that they make reloading more difficult...
lazs
I guess I was assuming the reloader folks would figure I was talking to a non-reloader when I recommended getting the 44 special loads. In 20/20 hindsight, it's a shame this needs to be pointed out.
IF YOU RELOAD YOUR OWN: Get a chitload of .44 MAG cases and go effing crazy making up your own pressure chambers.
IF YOU DO NOT RELOAD: Listen to Lazs anyway.
:aok
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I'm partial to the Ruger Redhawk. I have a Blackhawk & I really like it.
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well... If you don't reload and the recoil of a 44 mag bothers you for some reason...
Don't buy a 44 mag. There is no point... if 44 special is the limit of your recoil tolerance then simply buy a revolver chambered for 44 special. Smith makes an excellent one.
It will be more compact and have less distance to the throat and probly be more accurate than a 44 mag revolver shooting 44 special rounds.
course... the ammo won't be all that much cheaper but... if you simply have to have a 44 but can't shoot a magnum round.... the special is a good round in guns chambered for em... you could also buy a good single action 44-40 chambered revolver.
lazs
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*sighs* :(
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odee... reloading does not mean making your own pressure chambers (whatever that means).
You can load all sorts of rounds from 44 special level on up to max in 44 mag cases.
If you want to shoot 44 special rounds because 44 mag is too much recoil to handle... why get a 44 mag revolver?
They are bigger and not as handy as a 44 special revolver so get the gun chambered for the round you will shoot.
If you do take up reloading in the future you can reload all those 44 special cases you will have and save a bundle of money.
lazs