Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on May 03, 2007, 10:19:23 PM
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The other night, after flying the Ki-84 for awhile, I decided to take a Spitfire Mk XIV up for a go.
In my esteemed opinion, the Spitfire Mk XIV is a pig.... The Ki-84 seems to dance on air compared to the Mk XIV, which seems to struggle with the idea of doing anything other than rolling over and nose diving into the ground.
Basically, the Ki-84 helps you fight. The Spitfire Mk XIV fights you.
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...and the Spit XIV is perked.
You're absolutely right. The Ki should be perked as well. :t
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Try Spit 8 or 16 after Ki-84.
Ki is one of the best fighter in the game but Spit 8 after Ki is like BMW335 after Infinity G35. You can do wahtever you want. Great feeling.
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i thinks the spits are the most well balenced plane in the game any spit should own a ki84 except for a spit14 maybe.
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Different pilots, different planes and characteristics.
Never really got into flying the Spits. Ki-84 is my favorite furballer, though. Ki-84 is about the lowest ENY plane I tend to fly as well, I avoid all the low ENY planes.
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I fly it like a 109G-14 Karnak, vertical manuevers, stay fast, its not a IX or an VIII for manueverbility.
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Oh, I know what I am supposed to do. Just, it fought me the whole time.
As to Spits, well, I signed up to Aces High way back in v1.03 just to fly the Spits. Finnaly left them, mostly, due to the constant anti-Spit whines we have to endure.
Spent a long time in the Mossie, but AH2 mostly pulled the Mossie's teeth, at least in my hands. It became much, much harder for me to survive in the Mossie than it was in AH1.
As to the Spit VIII, it is my favorite Spitfire, but I feel like the Ki-84 has the edge on it by a fair margin, other than guns.
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Ya, I feel the same way re: the XIV. It does fight you. I usually take it offline for a few before rolling it in the MA, just to get the quirky feel back.
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Try a Spit XIV vs. Ki84 fight over 22,000 feet.
See which one is a pig.
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Originally posted by WMLute
Try a Spit XIV vs. Ki84 fight over 22,000 feet.
See which one is a pig.
Done that too, well, vs an La-7, took me about 5 minutes to drag the La-7 up to 25,000ft and it took the La-7 about 20 seconds to dive back to the deck once he realized how outclassed he was up there.
Sorry, not impressed.
Maybe if there was something keeping the enemy up there, but in AH there isn't.
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The P-47 is the best plane in Aces High spits and KI-84s are pigs!
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Originally posted by Karnak
As to the Spit VIII, it is my favorite Spitfire, but I feel like the Ki-84 has the edge on it by a fair margin, other than guns.
Naw, the Spit VIII owns the Ki-84.... Given equal pilots, the Spit eats it up.
As to the Spit XIV, it's a pure energy fighter. It's a monster up high and extremely capable when flown to its strengths. I've used it to duel the best La-7 driver in the game. It was dead even fighting on the deck. The beating the Spit XIV gives to the Ki-84 is epic. You simply use the Spit14's strengths, meaning you avoid stall fighting. Fight in the vertical, manage your E and the Ki-84 is little more than a crash test dummy for the Spit. Yeah, the Ki-84 turns a little bit better, so what? You don't fight that fight. You use the vastly better climb rate, speed and acceleration to gain position and simply kill it. Co-E, Co-Alt, you can engage or disengage at will.
Think about the P-51D. Since the drag remodeling porked its flaps, the P-51D can't out-turn a P-47D-40. The only fighters it can out-turn is the 190s. However, that's only a limitation if you impose it upon yourself. Flown to it strengths, it can dominate far more maneuverable aircraft. The same goes for the Spitfire XIV, only it can turn well enough to be a real threat to many fighters. It's fast, offers the best acceleration of any fighter from 150 mph to 200 mph, and is nearly dead even with the Tempest up to 300 mph. It climbs like a 109K-4 and out-turns either the 109K-4 or the Tempest. The higher you go, the better it gets until up around 27k, where it has few peers. Sure that's impractical for the MA, but you can still exploit it and be very successful. But first, you have to get comfortable with and learn its limits. Drop by the TA some evening and we'll get that accomplished.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Husky01
The P-47 is the best plane in Aces High spits and KI-84s are pigs!
Um, no, I think not.
I still fondly remember the first P-47 I ran into after the Mossie was released. I was flying my new Mossie and the P-47 gleefully dove on my "lumbering, twin engined fighter" and I then bled his energy out and shot him down in a stall fight on the deck.
Mossie is less of a pig than the P-47. :p
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The real truth is its the pilot not the plane. Put any good stick in a jug mossie or any other kind of larger fighter plane they will still kill a newb la7 or spit16 in a turn fight.
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Widewing,
I have never used the Mk XIV as a turn fighter. I knew before it was added to AH that it was to be used in the vertical and kept fast. That is how I was using it when, thanks to Apple minimizing AH for me to ask if I wanted to update my Apple software, I pancaked it at 400mph.
My issue is just that it made it very hard to do anything with it as it always wanted to fight my control inputs.
I know that fighting a team based, conservative fight the XIV will eat the 84s for lunch, but from a down in the muck, AH brawl standpoint, it seems to me that the Ki-84 is the better fighter. It doesn't fight me. The Mk VIII doesn't fight me either, it just doesn't respond as smoothly as the Ki-84, or so it feels to me.
EDIT:
Also, I have thousands of kills in the Mosquito Mk VI, which is used in similar fashions to the Mk XIV. The Mossie doesn't try to throw me off it's back, so to speak, at every oportunity, even with its weird stalls.
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I agree with Karnak. The Spit14 is indeed, a different type of plane than other Spitfires - that much we all tend to understand. However, the feel and handle is so radically different that its almost a dismaying experience to fly it.. Many small features have been changed with the introduction of the Gryf. engine, but just what is it exactly that causes the Spit14 to wallow like the pig it is, and not the other Spitfires?
For as long as I can remember I've been in 109s, and frankly, any 109 is easier to handle than the Spit14. There was a time when the 109s were frustratingly sensitive to roll axis destabilization during high AoA maneuvers - this has been corrected with the recent FM adjustments and slight increase in flap usage speeds. However, the Spit14 was always, and still is, extremely prone to roll axis destabilization - the phenomenon which causes snap-rolls.
As a matter of fact, the Spit14 is easier to cause a snap-roll in than a 190.
When a certain amount stick deflection is suddenly applied just enough to enter the opening stages of accelerated stalls, most planes start buffeting, and then after the stall has progressed enough to deterr controlled flight one wing droops down. The 109s, handle extremely well in these situations. Maybe its because of the leading edge slats, but they are extremely resistant to sudden stall behaviors that has no warning. It wasn't always like this, but the recent FM change has given the 109s that much stability. In the case of the 190s, they have that 'snap-roll' behavior. Without much buffeting, as soon as the AoA crosses the stall boundary it suddenly stalls, drooping one wing.
Interestingly, the Spit14 behaves the same as the 190s. What's more interesting, is all the other Spitfires have a much more benign behavior that shows considerable amount of threshold from the first signs of buffeting until one wing starts drooping. You can drag the plane into a wild bull ride rodeo of a 360 turn and the plane will still hang on through it. All the other Spitfires do this - except the Spit14.
So why is this happening? Is the Gryffin engine that much hostile to the flight characteristic of the plane? Does the elongated nose/tail change so much of the airflow as to make it behave it like a 190 than a Spitfire?
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Originally posted by Husky01
The real truth is its the pilot not the plane. Put any good stick in a jug mossie or any other kind of larger fighter plane they will still kill a newb la7 or spit16 in a turn fight.
Nah, he was a vet player. Just underestimated the new Mossie's manueverability. He woulda had my bacon had he been more cautious of the Mossie.
I was just razzing you. P-47 is a better fighter than the Mossie in all honesty.
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The most fun you can have in a Mossie is another fighter trying to straight turnfight you. Usually by the time they realize how deep in poop they are, their speed is gone.
Im going to enjoy the updated version, whenever it gets here.
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One thing to remember about flying the Ki-84 is how easy it is to pick up a pilot wound in the Frank. It's Achilles heel.
More often than not, that is how I lose a fight in a Frank, or am forced to ditch from a fight. I catch a burst, hear a ping and blood all over the canopy.
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As far as perking Spitfires is concerned, the 16 should be perked, not the 14. It offers far more potential to unbalance typical MA fights.
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As far as perking Spitfires is concerned, the 16 should be perked, not the 14. It offers far more potential to unbalance typical MA fights.
I agree.. what can the Spit14 do that the spit16 cannot do?
(except maybe, fly at 450mph at 25k..)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I agree with Karnak. The Spit14 is indeed, a different type of plane than other Spitfires - that much we all tend to understand. However, the feel and handle is so radically different that its almost a dismaying experience to fly it.. Many small features have been changed with the introduction of the Gryf. engine, but just what is it exactly that causes the Spit14 to wallow like the pig it is, and not the other Spitfires?
For as long as I can remember I've been in 109s, and frankly, any 109 is easier to handle than the Spit14. There was a time when the 109s were frustratingly sensitive to roll axis destabilization during high AoA maneuvers - this has been corrected with the recent FM adjustments and slight increase in flap usage speeds. However, the Spit14 was always, and still is, extremely prone to roll axis destabilization - the phenomenon which causes snap-rolls.
As a matter of fact, the Spit14 is easier to cause a snap-roll in than a 190.
When a certain amount stick deflection is suddenly applied just enough to enter the opening stages of accelerated stalls, most planes start buffeting, and then after the stall has progressed enough to deterr controlled flight one wing droops down. The 109s, handle extremely well in these situations. Maybe its because of the leading edge slats, but they are extremely resistant to sudden stall behaviors that has no warning. It wasn't always like this, but the recent FM change has given the 109s that much stability. In the case of the 190s, they have that 'snap-roll' behavior. Without much buffeting, as soon as the AoA crosses the stall boundary it suddenly stalls, drooping one wing.
Interestingly, the Spit14 behaves the same as the 190s. What's more interesting, is all the other Spitfires have a much more benign behavior that shows considerable amount of threshold from the first signs of buffeting until one wing starts drooping. You can drag the plane into a wild bull ride rodeo of a 360 turn and the plane will still hang on through it. All the other Spitfires do this - except the Spit14.
So why is this happening? Is the Gryffin engine that much hostile to the flight characteristic of the plane? Does the elongated nose/tail change so much of the airflow as to make it behave it like a 190 than a Spitfire?
I disagree with the bulk of this. I do not have any issues with roll destabilization unless I drop the flaps, and I generally will not use flaps with the Spit XIV. Don't need them. The drag and stability penalty easily out-weighs any minor gain in turn radius. Besides, you should never be so slow in the XIV that that flaps could even be lowered.
Yes, there is a great deal more torque than the other Spitfires. However, that torque can be utilized to one's advantage. Don't fight city hall.
It's a completely different animal than the other Spitfires and requires a different discipline. If you try to fly it like a Merlin Spit, you'll regret it almost immediately.
My regards,
Widewing
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Isn't there a suspicion that much like the Mossie the XIV's C of G is off?
Add that to it's porked climb rate = a bit of a pig.
Was hoping both would have been fixed during the remodel with an FM tweak, but alas this seems not have happened.
While it is a great high alt performer down low its only average.
You can only get close to catching a running La7 if you have WEP, otherwise forget it.
With the bigger planeset now I really think it is time to try the XIV out unperked in the MA's, and see what happens.
Out of all the perked planes the XIV is the only one which consistently fails to get a greater than 2.0 K/D ratio, in fact it usually barely surpasses around 1.2 K/D ratio.
Would an unperked XIV cause choas?
Probably not.
Your average newb will still go for the XVI because XVI is higher than XIV and therefore must be a later faster Spit.
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It's a completely different animal than the other Spitfires and requires a different discipline. If you try to fly it like a Merlin Spit, you'll regret it almost immediately.
That's the real problem, isn't it? Why should anyone regret it in the first place when they try to fly it like a 'Merlin Spit'? Why is it depicted as a 'completely different animal' in the first place?
Like Karnak, I don't turn&burn in the Spit14, nor do I fly it like a "Merlin Spit" - because, I already know what happens when you try it. The problem is why should the handling be so radically different so as to fly it more like a 109 or a 190 than a Spitfire - after all, it is a "Spitfire".
Frankly, your insight on this matter doesn't help all that much except to prove a certain point on how to fly the Spit14 as it is. We're not asking you about how to be successful in the current incarnation of the AH2 Spit14.
I believe the question Karnak and I have is why is it that way, in the first place. Is there any documented evidence that the Spit14 is a "completely different animal" in handling, than the other Spitfires?
I think not.
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Calling me a newb?
Those fighting words
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Originally posted by Karnak
The Mk VIII doesn't fight me either, it just doesn't respond as smoothly as the Ki-84, or so it feels to me.
The Mk. VIII is very similar to Ki84, in my perception, but it sure is less "maneuverable" in that, it has a slower roll rate and, IMO, this means a lot in combat. Also, I'm not sure it does climbing spirals as well as the Ki. Again, just pilot's perceptions, no data, here. :) Anyway, the VIII is a good alternative to Ki84, that is my main ride. As Vad and tedbr say, I think it's one of (if not the) best furballer of the game.
Btw, WW, wanna do that Spit VIII vs Ki84? :D I'm curious to see what comes out .
Originally posted by tedrbr
One thing to remember about flying the Ki-84 is how easy it is to pick up a pilot wound in the Frank. It's Achilles heel.
More often than not, that is how I lose a fight in a Frank, or am forced to ditch from a fight. I catch a burst, hear a ping and blood all over the canopy.
That's the thing I really hate.... I got used to it, but I hate how many wounds that fragging pilot gets!!!! :mad:
That and the ludicrously low speed the flaps pop out! (EDIT: pop out at? <--- need some english language enlightment!!) :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
That's the real problem, isn't it? Why should anyone regret it in the first place when they try to fly it like a 'Merlin Spit'? Why is it depicted as a 'completely different animal' in the first place?
Like Karnak, I don't turn&burn in the Spit14, nor do I fly it like a "Merlin Spit" - because, I already know what happens when you try it. The problem is why should the handling be so radically different so as to fly it more like a 109 or a 190 than a Spitfire - after all, it is a "Spitfire".
Frankly, your insight on this matter doesn't help all that much except to prove a certain point on how to fly the Spit14 as it is. We're not asking you about how to be successful in the current incarnation of the AH2 Spit14.
I believe the question Karnak and I have is why is it that way, in the first place. Is there any documented evidence that the Spit14 is a "completely different animal" in handling, than the other Spitfires?
I think not.
XIV only became substantially different from other mark handling at very very slow speeds due to its greater wieght.
All other characteristics remained more or less the same.
Trials against a IX (unknown if F IX or LF IX, I suspect LF IX) showed -
Roll rate should be very much the same.
Turning circle 'should' be more or less identical, with a slight adv to the XIV turning to port.
XIV better dive and climb.
Was found to be more manoeverable than an VIII in turns at ALL altitudes.
Had to be forced into a spin, would not do it voluntary.
It did have slightly heavier controls and required a lot of trimming, but we have auto trim anyway, maybe it's not working correctly?
Doesn't sound much like our XIV does it.
RE: Our VIII's roll rate - anyone else think it's based on an extended tipped VIII and not a regular tipped VIII?
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Doesn't sound much like our XIV does it.
Frankly, Kev, that doesn't sound like our Spit14 at all.
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The spit 14 is a different beast,it is a monster the griffin engine gives it totaly different handeling.
in one of the books i got Ginger lacy took up a new spit14 for some aerobatics and nearly slamed it into he ground doing a loop,when he got out he orders his guys to NEVER do a loop especialy low down as it handeling was totaly different to what they were used too.
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Originally posted by rogerdee
in one of the books i got Ginger lacy took up a new spit14 for some aerobatics and nearly slamed it into he ground doing a loop,when he got out he orders his guys to NEVER do a loop especialy low down as it handeling was totaly different to what they were used too.
He didn't order them not to do a loop. He ordered them not to do a loop (split S?) with less than x altitude. I'd have to pull my books down to find the quote, but I don't have time right now.
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After flying the 84, very little feels as agile and light. The Spit VIII may be comparable, but at low speeds it has much more of a wallowing feeling than the 84. What can ya do? :)
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Engine,
True, but at least the Mossie, an anything but light fighter, doesn't fight me on everything I want to do with it.
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I do agree with you that the Spit14 likes to fight its pilot. It's not the most enjoyable plane to fly.
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
i thinks the spits are the most well balenced plane in the game any spit should own a ki84 except for a spit14 maybe.
The Ki-84 is a good match for the Spitfire. If you can use the flaps, it turns just as well as a Spit, and even without them it is pretty close. At Mil Power, it is faster than every Spit but the XIV down low, and just as fast as a Spit XVI with WEP on. It might not be as fast up high, but those flaps let you pull some interesting maneuvers and stay stable at angles and speeds that have a lot of planes shuddering at the edge of control.
Plus you get great range, the ability to carry 2 250Kg Bombs, or 2 drop tanks that will keep you in the air for a LONG time. The views are great, and you get 2 x 20mm + 2 x 12.7mm guns with plenty of ammo. It'll take more damage than most Japanese rides, which isn't saying much, but at least you don't feel like you are flying in a paper airplane.
Spits are nice to fly, but an experienced Ki-84 stick will give you all you want.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
i thinks the spits are the most well balenced plane in the game any spit should own a ki84 except for a spit14 maybe.
Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets
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Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets
Not that I'm an expert in either type, but I agree with Dedalos. We've had a number of Spit v. Ki84 matches in AvA over the past couple of years, often attended by some very competent people, and the 84 clearly dominates (regardless of which spits are involved, btw).
- oldman
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Originally posted by Engine
I do agree with you that the Spit14 likes to fight its pilot. It's not the most enjoyable plane to fly.
Actually, it's not the airplane fighting the pilot, it's the pilot fighting the airplane.
It is important to come to that basic understanding.
Airplanes are inanimate. You animate them within the capability of the flight model. When you try to make it do something outside of its flight model, the aircraft will not comply. Basically, this says that the pilot is not as well versed on the aircraft as he needs to be, and thus will not be able to extract all the aircraft has to offer. You are flying the plane to its weakness, not its strength.
If you find that the aircraft is dipping a wing at high AoA and G loading, that is a flight model marker. You can fly right up to the marker, but not beyond without penalty. Learn the markers, practice at the markers until they become second nature.
That is the mark of the high-skill pilot. He can fly to the edge, stay there indefinitely and avoid the mistakes that cost you control loss just long enough to get you killed. He knows his markers, and doesn't push beyond them. He also knows your markers... Keep this in mind gents.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Karnak
He didn't order them not to do a loop. He ordered them not to do a loop (split S?) with less than x altitude. I'd have to pull my books down to find the quote, but I don't have time right now.
Quoting F/L Don Healey, 17 Squadron regarding Ginger's 14 incident.
"One aspect you always had to bear in mind with the XIV that no flying surface trimming could allow for it's considerable weight-it tipped the scales at 8475 lbs when fueled and armed, which made it over 2000 lbs heavier then the Mk VIII. Therefore extra height had to be allowed for when rolling and looping as it tended to 'wash out' when being flown this way.
Ginger Lacey graphically showed us all just how serious a problem this was when he attempted to do a loop from what he thought was an adequate starting height over Madura one afternoon. At the bottom of the loop he cleared the ground by barely 4 feet and uppon recovering back at the field Lacey looked ten years older then when he took off. He immediately gathered us around and told us in no uncertain terms not to attempt a similar manoeuver with anything less then 4000 feet reading on the altimeter."
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Something to keep in mind with the Griffon Spits was the need for constant trimming, and that at slow speeds that wasn't enough.
Again quoting Don Healey, who flew both VIIIs and XIVs in the Far East.
"We were told to open the throttle very slowly at the start of our take off with full opposite rudder applied to offset the five blade prop, which was driven by the Griffon in the opposite direction to the Merlin. This took some getting used to! Even with full ailerion, elevator and rudder, this brute of a fighter still took off slightly sideway! However once you picked up flying speed, and trimmed the rudder and elevator, this torque pull became bearable."
So you are talking about a Spit over a ton heavier then the Spit VIII, that has much more torque then the Merlin Spits, and really not enough flying surfaces to handle that power. (Note that the Spit 22 and 24 had an even larger tail surface to deal with this and the engine was the same Griffon.)
The XIV was a much harder beast to fly. As with most fighter development, the quest for power and speed cost some of the flying characteristics of previous versions. Most Spit drivers claim the Spit V was the best flying Spit and that after that, the Spits lost some of that balance.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets
Thankfully most of the 84 drivers don't know how to fly it to the edge.
I love getting into fights with 84s in the old 38G and most of the time I can take em. And I suck, which doesn't say much for the Ki drivers :)
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It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.
The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set. Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them. While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly. Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.
Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
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That and the ludicrously low speed the flaps pop out! (EDIT: pop out at? <--- need some english language enlightment!!) :)
Technically correct version:
"...the ludicrously low speed at which the flaps pop out." We're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition, so "...flaps pop out at" wouldn't pass a grammar test. At the same time, the correct version just sounds stiff and awkward, so it's probably better to reword the sentence to leave the preposition out entirely. For example, "That and how the flaps pop out at such a ludicrously slow speed!"
In conversational english, your sentence would fly just fine ending with the "at."
[/end grammarian mode]
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.
The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set. Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them. While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly. Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.
Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.
Thats what so wrong with it.
During handling trials of the XIV the test pilot said
- Had to be forced into a spin, would not do it voluntary -
Sounds as though the torque is too much, but whatever it is, something is up with it.
Everything I've read about it basically comes down to -
Taxiing and landing is a little harder (longer nose, more torque and it's the opposite direction to what they'd be used to).
Slightly heavier controls, but still more manoeverable than an VIII at ANY alt.
As well handling as any Spit.
Less warning of an accelerated stall.
Should turn with a IX to stbd, slightly inside it to port.
Should outdive ALL spits in game.
Something is just up with our XIV.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.
The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set. Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them. While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly. Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.
Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.
I wasn't looking for a Spitfire to replace the Ki-84. If I were looking for that I'd have grabbed a Spit VIII or Spit XVI.
I was just commenting on how stunning a change it is going from a Ki-84 to a Spitfire Mk XIV, and this is coming from a guy to transitions between the Ki-84 and Mosquito Mk VI with no issues.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I wasn't looking for a Spitfire to replace the Ki-84. If I were looking for that I'd have grabbed a Spit VIII or Spit XVI.
I was just commenting on how stunning a change it is going from a Ki-84 to a Spitfire Mk XIV, and this is coming from a guy to transitions between the Ki-84 and Mosquito Mk VI with no issues.
Well if that's the point of your post then you're right but you are comparing apples to oranges. In that case I'd argue that transitioning from a Lancaster to a A6M2 is an even more dramatic change, or even from a Ki-84 to a FW190A8 but what's the point? They aren't even in the same ballpark.
From your first post it sounded more like you wanted to try something similar to a Ki-84, decided a Spit might fit the bill, then thought... Ooh... perked Spit! until you found out that the XIV wasn't at all what you had expected.
I'm not trying to ridicule you or anything but that's just how I read your first post.
Now that we've got that cleared up lets discuss the differences between the Lanc and the A6M2...
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No, you're still missing it.
Why is a 19,500lb fighter easier to handle and more cooperative than a 8,500lb fighter when each is compared to a 7,500lb fighter?
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Nope, I got it the first time... It's that big torque rotating in the opposite direction of what you're used to.
I always have to consciously rememember to reverse all of my instinctive moves everytime I jump into a Spit XIV, Typhoon, Tempest or YAK. They all share these reverse torque qualities (although somewhat less so in the YAK) and if I don't I often find myself in trouble, unable to complete a loop, unable to drop the left wing or worse.
In addition, the gyroscopic effect of that torque also adds to the problem, stabalizing the nose at the worst possible times (near stall).
Those particular planes are actually overpowered for their airframes and it shows in performance and manouvering but kept at speed the control surfaces are able to compensate. As speed decreases they are not which is why the Typh and Temp both like to turn right on their own after take-off with auto take-off enabled until they reach ~175 mph. Rudder and aileron trim isn't enough to offset the torque in those two planes in this situation. The only thing that will do it is airflow around the rudder.
Oddly, it seems as though all the big torque engines in the game spin right though. I can't think of one that spins left.
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Then why do the Typhoon, Tempest, and Yak-9s not fight me and the Spit XIV does?
Also, I rarely let a Spit XIV's speed drop below 250mph, let alone below 150mph.
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I think between fighting a Spit16 or a Ki84 I'd prefer having to fight the Spit16. If you can survive the first couple of attacks it can turn into a turnfight. With the KI84, the fight starts out tuff and gets worse, especially if they use its climb on ya.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Then why do the Typhoon, Tempest, and Yak-9s not fight me and the Spit XIV does?
Also, I rarely let a Spit XIV's speed drop below 250mph, let alone below 150mph.
I'm just speculating but I'd say it's ecause a lot of noobs fly Spits and they don't know what a Spit XIV is actually like so they engage as normal. After flying one they think "Why did I waste my perks on this POS" and don't get back in one. That leaves you with a few "vets" who DO know how to fly one and they'll likely fight anything in anything and know how to do it.
Over the past three months total kills plus deaths are 191447 for the Spit XVI (among the highest in the arenas) and only 8609 for the Spit XIV, among the lowest in the arenas and in fact, even lower than the Spit I at 9928! Given equal arena conditions it would be hard to make an argument that the I is a better plane than the XIV and this just points out how misunderstood the XIV is.
Total Spit kills plus deaths and kills per death (past 3 months):
SeaFire 106616 0.85
Spitfire Mk I 9928 0.24
Spitfire Mk IX 88581 1.11
Spitfire Mk V 31810 0.69
Spitfire Mk VIII 92273 0.92
Spitfire Mk XIV 8609 1.19
Spitfire Mk XVI 191447 1.10
BTW, my personal favorite is the V.
[EDIT]: Added arena-wide kills per death for all Spits which shows the XIV's overall superiority.
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the 14 was introduced to that game at a time when speed was more important, and there seemed to be more hi alt fights. Since it was a fast spit that did well at hi alts it was perked on it entrance to the game. The game has changed alot since then, but the perk scale has not.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Naw, the Spit VIII owns the Ki-84.... Given equal pilots, the Spit eats it up.
I disagree...The Ki84 has the best wep in the game..All you have to do is dance for a while..Run the spit8 hot and then the tables turn.The Ki can then outlast the spit8 even when both guys start flap-fiting.
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spit 14 is like the late war 109s... they have higher top speed and rate of climb but manuverability suffered.
these 1930s fighters were pushed to the limit...
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I disagree...The Ki84 has the best wep in the game..All you have to do is dance for a while..Run the spit8 hot and then the tables turn.The Ki can then outlast the spit8 even when both guys start flap-fiting.
What makes you think that fight will last 5 minutes? It also assumes that WEP will be used uninterrupted.
By the way, 90 seconds on, 45 seconds off is not as good as 10 continuous minutes like the 109s and Lavochkins.
Let's review performance.
Climb: Spit VIII by a considerable margin.
Acceleration: See above.
Turn radius, no flaps: Spit VIII.
Turn radius, with flaps: Dead heat, but the Spit is more stable at high AoA.
Speed: Very slight edge to Ki-84 at sea level, but Spit gets to 250 mph faster.
Roll rate: Ki-84. However, the Spit's roll rate is greatly enhanced with rudder use.
I've dueled lot of guys in Ki-84s while flying the Spit VIII. I'll take the Spitfire. For that matter, I'd take the 109F-4 over the Ki-84 too.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm just speculating but I'd say it's ecause a lot of noobs fly Spits and they don't know what a Spit XIV is actually like so they engage as normal.
And what precisely does this have to do with me?
I was one of the most vocal people advocating the addition of the Spitfire Mk XIV before it was added. I well know it is not to be used like other Spitfires. But a Typhoon is also not to be used like Spitfires, and it is easy to use. The Spitfire Mk XIV fights me the whole time.
As a note, it didn't used to fight the pilot like it does now.
1K3,
History does not really agree with that.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm just speculating but I'd say it's ecause a lot of noobs fly Spits and they don't know what a Spit XIV is actually like so they engage as normal. After flying one they think "Why did I waste my perks on this POS" and don't get back in one. That leaves you with a few "vets" who DO know how to fly one and they'll likely fight anything in anything and know how to do it.
Over the past three months total kills plus deaths are 191447 for the Spit XVI (among the highest in the arenas) and only 8609 for the Spit XIV, among the lowest in the arenas and in fact, even lower than the Spit I at 9928! Given equal arena conditions it would be hard to make an argument that the I is a better plane than the XIV and this just points out how misunderstood the XIV is.
Total Spit kills plus deaths and kills per death (past 3 months):
SeaFire 106616 0.85
Spitfire Mk I 9928 0.24
Spitfire Mk IX 88581 1.11
Spitfire Mk V 31810 0.69
Spitfire Mk VIII 92273 0.92
Spitfire Mk XIV 8609 1.19
Spitfire Mk XVI 191447 1.10
BTW, my personal favorite is the V.
[EDIT]: Added arena-wide kills per death for all Spits which shows the XIV's overall superiority.
Just supports what I already said -
Every other perked plane (including the Ta-152 when it was) always manages a better than 2.0 K/D.
A 0.09 advantage over a Spit XVI's K/D ratio hardly proves anything.
The XIV normal languishes at around 1.1 - 1.2 range.
Someone remind me what makes it so perkworthy in than MA?
Back to the main contension -
Still found nothing to suggest that apart from take-off and landing, the XIV behaved susbstantially different from any other Spit.
The fact it wouldn't enter a spin voluntary but had to be forced into one, seems to indicate good stability.
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spit14 is an E fighter, not an angle fighter. It's amazing for diving on stuff from way up high, but beyond that, it's so-so. I'd much rather be low and slow in a 109 than an XIV. Ki-84 is an amazing all-around fighter, so long as you have some modicum of skill. 1-on-1 I think the XIV, if flown well, can take anything in the game. It has at least one advantage on every plane. I'd say the best challenger is the XVI.
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Originally posted by wetrat
Ki-84 is an amazing all-around fighter, so long as you have some modicum of skill.
Probably one of the Ki's strengths is it is a pretty forgiving plane in many regards. A lot probably depends on an individual pilot's style as well as skill in plane selection. I'm not a great fitr stick, and I've never gotten much out of using Spits, but I have done okay in the Ki-84 at times.
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If you know how to fly it, it's the butcher of the skies. Fortunately, it will never be as popular as the spit16 or la7 because it requires you to know when to shift from E-fighting to low-speed flap turning, and how to sucker enemies into fighting your fight. If you just keep WEP on and try to turn with everything like a Spit, you're dead. If you just try to keep it fast and fly it like a Pony, you're dead.
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Originally posted by Karnak
And what precisely does this have to do with me?
I was one of the most vocal people advocating the addition of the Spitfire Mk XIV before it was added. I well know it is not to be used like other Spitfires. But a Typhoon is also not to be used like Spitfires, and it is easy to use. The Spitfire Mk XIV fights me the whole time.
As a note, it didn't used to fight the pilot like it does now.
1K3,
History does not really agree with that.
Oops, my mistake. Again I mis-read. I was taking your comment to mean that those other planes never got in fights with you but Spit XIV's do which, as I think about it now doesn't really make sense.
It's been a long week without enough sleep (damn you HT!).
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Originally posted by Simaril
Technically correct version:
"...the ludicrously low speed at which the flaps pop out." We're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition, so "...flaps pop out at" wouldn't pass a grammar test. At the same time, the correct version just sounds stiff and awkward, so it's probably better to reword the sentence to leave the preposition out entirely. For example, "That and how the flaps pop out at such a ludicrously slow speed!"
In conversational english, your sentence would fly just fine ending with the "at."
[/end grammarian mode]
Thank you, Simaril, I appreciate your help! Now I got it right. (just one thing: you can't let the preposition out entirely!) :)
Originally posted by FiLtH
I think between fighting a Spit16 or a Ki84 I'd prefer having to fight the Spit16. If you can survive the first couple of attacks it can turn into a turnfight. With the KI84, the fight starts out tuff and gets worse, especially if they use its climb on ya.
True, Filth, unless you find someone like who goof and let you kill him! :D Great fight the other day! ;) :aok
Widewing, do you want to duel me? Ki84 vs Spit VIII.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Widewing, do you want to duel me? Ki84 vs Spit VIII.
I'll be in the TA tonight at 9 PM Eastern for a scheduled training session to 10 PM. After that, I'll be available.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'd like to be there, but it will have to be another night for me. A friend is moving and I have a truck....
Have fun and I'd like to hear the results.
EDIT:
I took up a Spit VIII last night and while I didn't get kills with it, one kill, one mission kill,, I did dance with a whole lot of Bish (I am a Rook right now) until I ran out of fuel. It is definately one of the premier fighters in AH.
It has also been on my short "Favorites" list for a long, long time.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'll be in the TA tonight at 9 PM Eastern for a scheduled training session to 10 PM. After that, I'll be available.
My regards,
Widewing
Ouch.... that would be 4 AM for me... :p Best thing is to find a day when you can fly in afternoon, it would be evening for me. PM me to arrange for that.... I think we never met in duel, I'm eager to find out the result! :)
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Originally posted by Engine
If you know how to fly it, it's the butcher of the skies. Fortunately, it will never be as popular as the spit16 or la7 because it requires you to know when to shift from E-fighting to low-speed flap turning, and how to sucker enemies into fighting your fight. If you just keep WEP on and try to turn with everything like a Spit, you're dead. If you just try to keep it fast and fly it like a Pony, you're dead.
Will never be popular because it's just not worth even it reduced perked cost.
May well have been when it was first introduced, but the planeset is that much bigger now.
Check back through it's stats the last 2 yrs, it has never got much better than a 1.1 / 1.2 K/D for any tour, and is the ONLY perked plane not to achieve a 2.0 or better K/D ratio.
If the fights were 25k+, yup it's probably worth a mild perk, but as they are substantially lower it just more hamburger meat.
UNPERK it, they unperked the Ta-152.
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Kev, I think Engine was talking about the Ki84, not the Spit XIV, in regard to Tedbr post.
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Yep, I was talking about the Ki84. :)
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spit8 was the plane I learned to fly the game with. I love that bird! But, I have been wandering the planeset getting a feel for the different planes and how to fly them and how to beat them. I'm now stuck on the Ki84. I have a blast upping with 50% and drops for a sweep or the bombs on attack. I've had more luck with JABO in it than most other dedicated attack planes!
The spit8 is a darling though. I think it can hold onto its E very well.
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Originally posted by leitwolf
As far as perking Spitfires is concerned, the 16 should be perked, not the 14. It offers far more potential to unbalance typical MA fights.
Yet the 38 still owns the 16. :t
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'll be in the TA tonight at 9 PM Eastern for a scheduled training session to 10 PM. After that, I'll be available.
My regards,
Widewing
Please, post the films/tracks of the duel. I need learn how fly the Ki 84 and tips for burn more spits VIIIs.
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Check the dates... 2 month old post here. Bongaroo bumped it (who knows why?)
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Been reading up on the Ki84 with some forum searching. Sorry about the necromancy. I meant to ask in my post if a duel ever occured.
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No worries. Usually folks will make note "Sorry for the bump" or "Resurrecting an old thread" so that folks reading through it realize a time jump has taken place.
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Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
Please, post the films/tracks of the duel. I need learn how fly the Ki 84 and tips for burn more spits VIIIs.
Gianlupo lives in Italy, making that duel very difficult to schedule. However, I will post a film of my Ki-84 vs a Spit14 and a P-47D-40.
The two gentlemen flying the other aircraft have been working with me for a while during the Trainer's Engaging Multiple Enemies clinics. They have improved considerably over that period. We rotate through the players, with everyone getting a few chances to fly as the lone guy. To prevent these fights from becoming a perpetual 3 on 1, if you take hits to your cockpit glass, you are expected to turn on your airshow smoke, disengage and fly out beyond icon range. Once you do that, you can turn off the smoke and fly back to the fight.
So far this has worked very well, with every player respecting the honor system.
The film below is from our last clinic. It shows the strengths of the Ki-84 and some of its inherent weaknesses (unstable in the roll axis at high AoA). Glean what you can from it. Watch it from the Fixed position, zoomed all the way in. Use the horizontal and vertical sliders to follow the aircraft from various angles. Don't forget to turn on trails...
Ki-84 2v1 (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/Ki-84v2.ahf)
The next installment of this clinic is scheduled for July 12 at 9 PM in the TA at field A100, initial vox is 104. As groups organize, each group will be assigned a new radio frequency (105, 106, etc). On a good night we have four groups of 4 pilots.
The benefits can be huge in terms of improved SA and wingman co-ordination. The better sticks will have the other three in the tower in about 5 minutes (due to forced augers).
It's great fun..
My regards,
Widewing
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Since this thread opened the door to unperking the spit XIV, I concure.
Having flown with the 56th for some time, I would fly the spit14 to change the pace from jugs. I always found it to be like flying a lighter P47N that turns to the right with a mean zoom climb. If caught lower than about 7k without speed from a dive, spit16 drivers often ran me down and dominated the low alt 1 vs 1 that resulted.
When the K4 was introduced I could not understand why the spit14 remained perked and the K4 wasen't. I have been flying the K4 alot since last tour and find it's speed under 12k level on wep to be competitive to the spit14 or better. Thats how I escape so often to land 1-3 kills each sorte. If the K4 is not perked simply because the 30mm in the nose is dificulte to hit with, I say Rubbish.....I just fly to within 200 and the con goes boom when I tap the trigger. The K4 is a wolf in the lambing pen.
Since the Ta152 has been unperked I have been flying it along side the K4. It seems many average players don't know how to get it to mow through furballs at over 400mph, get a kill and either zoom away to safety or run away on the deck from La7, D9, 51, and K4. It is awsume and easy to fly after my time in jugs. On the deck I have beaten spit14's with the Ta152 furballing with half the main tank left.<----qualifying here that my Ta152 was very low on fuel and light on ammo at the time.
So if these two german power deamons are unperked with the incredibal performance they display. And the spit14 against them is not immune by a very long shot. HiTech I vote to unperk the spit14. It is not going to become the next CHOG epidemic by any means. It requires too much time and effort to learn it well enough to cause arena wide problems. And in most cases 2weekers, new players and average players will get picked off down low in furballs and never spend the time learning its strengths and peccadillos. This will probably contribut to it not being flown as much as the spit8, spit9 or spit16. Or even the BF109-K4.
And I'm a little biased. I like the spit14 for it's strenghts. I have survived more often because of them and appreciate it's high speed abilities in the game.:aok
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Originally posted by Widewing
Gianlupo lives in Italy, making that duel very difficult to schedule. However,
The two gentlemen flying the other aircraft have been working with me for a while during the Trainer's Engaging Multiple Enemies clinics.
The next installment of this clinic is scheduled for July 12 at 9 PM in the TA at field A100, initial vox is 104. As groups organize, each group will be assigned a new radio frequency (105, 106, etc). On a good night we have four groups of 4 pilots.
The benefits can be huge in terms of improved SA and wingman co-ordination. The better sticks will have the other three in the tower in about 5 minutes (due to forced augers).
It's great fun..
Alas, WW, yes, time zones are a big trouble. Not only because we can't setup easily a duel (are you sure you don't have a free afternoon? Come on, you don't need to nap after every lunch, old man ;) :D), but because I can't attend to the clinics. This one, particularly, would have been useful to me... I still need to learn to read E states.
I posted in the H&T forum asking for some .ahf of the sessions, but no response. Thanks for posting this movie.
It would be nice if someone, maybe one of the trainer, recorded a whole session, including the chatter in tower (so that we can have the theory and the practice) and posted it on the BBS, it'd help people who lives in Europe to partecipate to the clinics without losing sleep. ;) I hope this can be done.
Sorry for the partial hijack, <>
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Ive fallen in love with the G6 for furballing :aok The spixteen, lala and niki crowd seems to think its an easy target so they get careless.. BOOM :cool:
rope rope rope :cool:
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Originally posted by Widewing
The film below is from our last clinic. It shows the strengths of the Ki-84 and some of its inherent weaknesses (unstable in the roll axis at high AoA). Glean what you can from it. Watch it from the Fixed position, zoomed all the way in. Use the horizontal and vertical sliders to follow the aircraft from various angles. Don't forget to turn on trails...
Ki-84 2v1 (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/Ki-84v2.ahf)
Thanks for share.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
That and the ludicrously low speed needed for the flaps to pop out!
Alas, WW, yes, the time zone difference is a problem.
<--- need some english language enlightment!!) :)
better way of putting it, to be clear and simple.
Come on, you don't need to nap after every lunch, old man
that is a strange foreign habit to most of the US. the usual lunch is 30 minutes around 12 noon, then right back to work.
and WW's use of the word 'clinic' is on the weird side.
better word would be 'class'.
as in, going to a class. (not a dig at you WW, just info for Gian.)
common use being this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinic) though, the way some people fly, maybe a clinic would be better than a class. (if that is Dr. WW's intent then :rofl )
mmm what was this topic about? oh yeah the spit14. a decent ride, not really worth the perk costs to lose one. but if it is flown right, it won't cost you anything to fly it.
if you insist on flying it, might be a good idea to fly it in training arena long enough to get used to it, before hitting the MA with it.
the ki-84 is a squirrelly target, use the force and go squirrel hunting on it, then you'll be having ki-84 for supper or dinner (whatever you want to call it). :p ;)
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I don't know who the above poster is. He doesn't fly in my squad. And I don't know why he posts when he's drunk! :noid
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The comparison with a Ki is a bit tricky. The 14 is a B&Z ride, not a stall fighter. I would expect the prior to be a lot less work to fly. One could say the same for most of the B&Z type planes I think.
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Who keeps raising the dead?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The problem is why should the handling be so radically different so as to fly it more like a 109 or a 190 than a Spitfire - after all, it is a "Spitfire".
I believe the question Karnak and I have is why is it that way, in the first place. Is there any documented evidence that the Spit14 is a "completely different animal" in handling, than the other Spitfires?
I think not.
The *problem* with XIV is only one.. Griffon and his monsterous torgue effect.
Close throttle, and you have a normal turning spit, more hvy, but still
turns like spit (near same airframe-wings).
Open throttle and you fight with torgue just to keep it in straight line.
Thats the price for the beast.
>> The engine delivered over 4,700 lbs of torque to the propeller at take-off power which could wrench the airplane into a roll right out from under the pilot, especially during a go-around when maximum power was required at low altitude and speed. The torque reaction of the Griffon would pull the engine to the right, which was where the carrier island was located, obviously a precarious situation. This was eventually corrected by using contra-rotating propellers, but not before WWII ended.<<
http://www.unlimitedexcitement.com/Griffon%20Budweiser/Rolls-Royce%20Griffon%20Engine.htm
>>Pilot conversion from Merlin-engined to Griffon-engined Spitfires was not without teething troubles, the most common problem being the ingrained habit of applying a starboard trim to the aircraft's rudder to offset the tremendous torque produced at takeoff power. As the Griffon's crankshaft rotated in the opposite direction to that of the Merlin (a legacy of its intended use for naval aircraft), a starboard bias increased, instead of compensating for, the undesirable effects of torque. This problem was never fully overcome in land-based Spitfires, although the Seafire FR.47 was fitted with a contra-rotating propeller as standard, thus negating airscrew torque.<<
http://www.answers.com/topic/rolls-royce-griffon
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Not that I'm an expert in either type, but I agree with Dedalos. We've had a number of Spit v. Ki84 matches in AvA over the past couple of years, often attended by some very competent people, and the 84 clearly dominates (regardless of which spits are involved, btw).
- oldman
ki-84 full flaps turns better than spits
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I've actually had really great success killing spits in the Ki-84, often before the battle becomes a straight out knife fight. Using high yo-yo's or just going vertical makes it easy to catch a lower E spit.
I particularly like fighting the spixteen's. Seems like the Ki84 has a lot of advantage over them, or maybe (and more likely) I just keep seeing a bunch of n00b's in them.
P.S. I'm a level 14 forum necromancer and love bringing topics back to life. ITS ALIVE! ITS ALIVEEEEEEEEEE!!!!