Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Baggy on May 04, 2007, 09:04:30 AM
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Hi all,
This will be my first build - Gulp! Any thoughts on the components before I order em? The case comes with that PSU, will it cope? I hope to try my hand at overclocking. Will be running XP Pro SP2
CPU: Intel Conroe E6320 2x1.86GHz 1066FSB LGA775 4MB cache
MB: Gigabyte GA965PDS3
RAM: 2GB GeIL PC2-6400C4 Dual Channel Kit
HDs: 2 x Samsung Spinpoint HD080HJ 80GB - RAID 0
Graphics: Sapphire Radeon X1950 Pro 256MB
DVD/RW: LITE-ON DH-18A1P-18C
Case: Antec Sonata II with Antec 450W PSU
Thanks for any input.
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I just bought a case yesterday and was "browsing"...the sonata II PS should be fine. either the 2 or 3 has the 430W high efficiency with the 3 x 12V (18v?)...
Anyway you'll be fine with a single VC system. Seemed like a pretty nice case. I have a 550W PS so I got an Ultra (actually turned out to be best case I've ever bought)....both of my GB boards were easy overclockers. To be honest you wont really need to OC that system for AH....
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Hi Humble!
I was pretty sure the PSU would be ok, but wanted to check. As for overclocking, I'm interested in giving it a go just to see if I can actually figure it all out! :)
Thanks for the input mate!
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Larger Hdd's will be a factor in my next build. I currently have 2 seagate barracuda sata 150 drives in a raid 0 and I also have a WD 200gb for storing files etc. I am limited on what programs I can run on the 2 drives due to ammount of storage available. I would highly recommend getting at least 200gb hdd's as they wont be that much more and then having another drive or two just for storage.
For overclocking you may want to check out http://www.overclockers.com There is some great reading and info at this site!
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Thanks for the advice Sting, I'll up the HD sizes and will have a good browse through the OC website.
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I've built 2 systems from scratch. The second i did in Feb.
Those specs look easily enough capable of running AH and shouldnt cost you a packet. I went overkill on my new machine just so that it lasts that little bit longer and upgradibility wise.
Just be very careful with that processor chip (always the best bit of building a machine). My E6600 was easy as pie. Make sure you line it up the right way if you havent done this before the chip has an arrow in one corner and your board should also indicate which way it goes in.
Power wise i had an antec in my 1st system and was more than happy with it. Went with an enermax 620W for my new machine.
See your from Kent baggy you should look my squad up in game (Brits)
Bruv
~S~
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Hi Bruv,
Yeah, as its my first build I want to be ultra careful not to knacker anything.
I'm on a fairly limited budget but shopping around I can get the components for around £530, not too shabby! OcUK are doing the RAM for £67 on a special at the moment.
I'll look you blokes up when I'm on.
Play up Pompey!
Laters mate
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Originally posted by Baggy
Play up Pompey!
If your looking for an invite that ^^^^ would pretty much guarantee one!
:lol
Blue army!
Bruv
~S~
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most gaming rigs have smaller Hd's with high RPM's and a large cache
Dont worry about buying "bigger"...look for a 10,000rpm drive with an 8mg cache. You can always add a bigger drive for other stuff. I have a 300G drive for "normal" stuff (Vista) an 80 gig drive for gaming(XP pro) and an older 40G baracuda for linux (Ubantu)...
Whats important is take your time, watch for static, dont force anything. I recommend installing highjack this as soon as you have your "default" configuration. Save that config and you'll never have a problem figuring out what went south if/when you run into a problem...
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Humble's sort of hit the nail on the head for hard drives .
its better to use a smaller 7500- 10k rpm 8mb + cache drive for primary (40- 80 gb partition ) drive with your OS and installed programs . use a second HD for storage .
this is a huge advantage when having to reformat and help keeps your primary drive/partition running at its best for a long time . along with being cheaper on the wallet in the long run .
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Thanks again for the advice Humble/Roscoroo
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As for cache sizes on Hard drives, you'll see no difference between 8mb and 16mb.
Here's a good HD performance comparison.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/storage.html
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Also be aware that running RAID 0 will double your risk of hard drive failure. Not because its more taxing on the drive, but you'll have two hard drives 'acting' as one and if one crashes, you'll lose the data on the 'combined' drive.
However, you'll get a good performance increase, not FPS wise in games, but boot time and load times and large file transfers etc. One drive in non-raid you'll get about an average of 60mb/sec transfer rates, and in raid 0 you'll see around 100-105.
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I would definately skip the raid 0. The newer/larger drives are in some cases even faster than using 2 smaller (older) drives in raid0 because the new drives are simply better and faster all by themselves. I have a 2 year old 7200 rpm laptop hard drive and recently bought a larger but "slower" 5400 rpm laptop drive as a secondary drive, and to my suprise the newer, larger, but "slower" 5400 rpm drive actually performs about 20% faster than the older 7200 rpm drive.
I'd say get a nice 500 gig drive since they seem to have the best bang/buck right now. Newegg has the samsung spinpoint t 500 gig drive for $119 right now... That's what I'd get.
I had a RAID 0 setup a long time ago and yea it was really fast, but after a scare when one of the two drives started to fail, I went back to single larger drives. The new drives are fast enough that you probably won't notice the speed difference very often unless you're a benchmark addict.
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Great thread, guys!
Informative!
Regards,
Sun
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That sounds like good advice, I probably wont be doing any large file editing so I'll stick with the larger single drive.
I'll order after the Bank Holiday, should be building it next weekend - wife and boy packed off to the mother inlaws for the day! :)
Thanks Fulmar/Eagl
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Baggy...
That mobo doesn't support the memory you have paired with it. The mobo requires 1.8v 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 memory.
The memory you have paired with it is 1.9-2.3v 4-4-4
You want the GeIL PC2-6400C5 not C4
Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets.
You're pretty close to the system I'm thinking about building...
Rosewill R5604-TBK Screw-less Dual 120mm Fans ATX Mid Tower Case
GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3 LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775 Processor
Radeon X1650 512MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card
Broadway Com Corp Okia-black-650 ATX 650W Power Supply
WINTEC 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Memory
HITACHI Deskstar 7K80 HDS728080PLA380 (0A30356) 80GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
LITE-ON Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model SHD-16S1S-05
Total cost - $627 + shipping
The HD might seem small to some but I've had an 80gb drive on my current system for 3 years and it's still 59% empty.
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If you go for raid go for Raid5 straight away.
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You have me worried NHawk!
I did a little research before so I thought I'd got everything compatible.
The store I'm getting the RAM from bundles this with the mobo so I'm a little confused.
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=BU-036-OK
Anyone used this board and RAM?
Cheers
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Notice: Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets
This is right off the spec sheet on newegg....
BTW this board has 600 reviews on newegg. A suprising number % wise at 4 eggs or less including 14% (80+) with just 1 or 2 eggs...I like GB stuff alot but that suprises me....
Here is a review I came across where they load up PC-8500 DDR2 and it runs fine. Just make sure the place you buy it from will exchange if you have a problem...
MB review (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/406)
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Originally posted by humble
Notice: Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets
This is right off the spec sheet on newegg....
BTW this board has 600 reviews on newegg. A suprising number % wise at 4 eggs or less including 14% (80+) with just 1 or 2 eggs...I like GB stuff alot but that suprises me....
Here is a review I came across where they load up PC-8500 DDR2 and it runs fine. Just make sure the place you buy it from will exchange if you have a problem...
MB review (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/406)
I read quite a few of the negative reviews. Most of them are related to overclocking, and mismatched components.
I actually think it might be partially because people don't "read" the specs completely. I paired this board with memory similar to what Baggy had. Then while double checking specs on everything I spotted the 1.8v warning.
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Originally posted by NHawk
Baggy...
That mobo doesn't support the memory you have paired with it. The mobo requires 1.8v 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 memory.
The memory you have paired with it is 1.9-2.3v 4-4-4
You want the GeIL PC2-6400C5 not C4
Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets.
For the most part this is true what he said. However, it is possible to use that 1.9V+ memory configurations with the 965 chipset. Yet, there is a downisde. You would need a 1.8V stick to boot into the BIOS of the motherboard and up the voltage on the RAM to 1.9V or more (only increase it beyond 1.9V if you want to overclock the RAM). Then you'd have to put in the new 1.9V rated RAM and it would work then. If you put the 1.9V RAM in right away it is unlikely you would be able to even boot into the BIOS.
This was one of the reasons why I avoided the 965 chipset. It is a very good chipset, but I did not want to mess with the picky-ness of the memory.
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Originally posted by NHawk
I read quite a few of the negative reviews. Most of them are related to overclocking, and mismatched components.
Actually, the board is reviewed highly for overclocking (the rev 3.3 of the DS3). It's one of the most stable motherboards in the 965 chipset. The memory mismatching is a different matter. Many people have been able to reach 3.6ghz+ clock speeds with C2D's (of course they're using water cooling). You can get about 500mhz overclock safely on the C2D's on a stock HSF.
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My board, of course, has the 975 chipset but my RAM is rated 1.9-2.2v. It booted with both sticks the first time with no problems @ the board's default 1.8v. GSkill tech support told me that, much like RAM's speed rating, the voltage rating just means the RAM is guaranteed to run @ rated speed/timings with that voltage. I bumped it up to 1.9v when I manually set the timings to 12-4-4-4 as it initially defaulted to looser timings.
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
My board, of course, has the 975 chipset but my RAM is rated 1.9-2.2v. It booted with both sticks the first time with no problems @ the board's default 1.8v. GSkill tech support told me that, much like RAM's speed rating, the voltage rating just means the RAM is guaranteed to run @ rated speed/timings with that voltage. I bumped it up to 1.9v when I manually set the timings to 12-4-4-4 as it initially defaulted to looser timings.
This is true as well, depends on the RAM though. A lot of labels and specifications on websites never let you know. Read some other tech forums and you'll see numerous threads on people praying for help on why their new build doesnt work.
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Personally my thoughts are you OC your old box, not your new one:). Especially given the current "horsepower". I've OC''d my 6600, memoery and VC pretty significantly (70%+ increase in aquamark and other benchmarks)...but why? It runs AH maxed out across the board (in Vista with all defualt processes running) with F/R pegged at V-sync....the hardware is so far ahead of any real demand at this point its not really worth OCing anymore IMO (on a new build)...
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Originally posted by humble
Personally my thoughts are you OC your old box, not your new one:). Especially given the current "horsepower". I've OC''d my 6600, memoery and VC pretty significantly (70%+ increase in aquamark and other benchmarks)...but why? It runs AH maxed out across the board (in Vista with all defualt processes running) with F/R pegged at V-sync....the hardware is so far ahead of any real demand at this point its not really worth OCing anymore IMO (on a new build)...
I totally agree. That is why I haven't overclocked the new rig, YET. Of course I will at some point if I think it will be an improvement. I oc'd my Barton 2500 the first day it was running but haven't felt the need with the Conroe.:D
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Good info guys, Ill try that ram and see how I get on. As you say, it shouldn't need OC'ing yet, so lets just see if I can get it running!
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Originally posted by Baggy
Good info guys, Ill try that ram and see how I get on. As you say, it shouldn't need OC'ing yet, so lets just see if I can get it running!
That's the way to go in the beginning. :aok
One more thing, consider getting a northbridge cooler. After a ton of research it runs hot on that board.
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Righto NHawk, I'll look into that. Cheers
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Just a notice:
You don't need two harddrives on your computer if you want to spare yourself of total format. Just partition the drive to 2 or more partitions. That's what I always do and it's a breeze to dump the OS partition and make a fresh install.
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HeHe, I have 2 320s in Raid 1 with 4 partitions and a 160 for backups.
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well well....I'm cooler cuz I use an older computer as a NAS (Network Area Storage) with FTP access that stores backups! Freenas.org!
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Originally posted by Fulmar
well well....I'm cooler cuz I use an older computer as a NAS (Network Area Storage) with FTP access that stores backups! Freenas.org!
Bah that's nothing I back up my personal files on haxx0red Nasa mainframes. Last week I uploaded Debby does Dallas over the Mars Explorer commo source. Man I wanted to see their faces when they opened up the line the next morning. :rolleyes:
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Built it yesterday!
First thing I did was bust a couple of lugs on the front panel of the case trying to get it off! 'Good omen' I thought! But mostly everything else went well and after about 5 hours it was time to fire it up. Hit the on button... Nothing! Check all power leads, main mother board power supply not in properly, push it in, fire up and bingo it posts!!! Yippeee!
As we say over here - 'Its the dogs b@ll@cks!'
Now I have no excuse for being crap! :)
Thanks for all your help guys.
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5 hours?
Well I guess the first computer I built took about that long. Once you have several more system under your belt, you can do a brand new comp in well less than an hour*.
*Granted the manuals you have for the parts were not written in less than 30 seconds and caused you a 45 minute headache.
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Hehe, I wanted to make sure I go it right! Im well chuffed with it!
Manuals and me don't get on, I can't make head nor tail of em usually, but I made sure I understood everything - hence the time taken.
Cheers
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good job baggy.
Have you thought about what monitor to get?
A new machine is no good if you havent got a big bellybutton screen. :t
Bruv
~S~
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Hi Bruv,
Yes, a new monitor would help and new joystick and rudder pedals too!
Any suggestions on a decent budget monitor - 20-22" widescreen?
Watching the final tomorrow...
Come on you Pensioners! Stuff the Mancs :-)
Strange how both sets of fans will be from Chelsea!
Cheers
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Baggy,why that antec case???? they have a much better,big tho,server case with a 550 psu 1050b I think.
the psu is very good for it's wattage.....
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5 hours is good. It took me over 10 hours. I like to take my time and make it look/function good.
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Cost was the factor Morfiend! I would have like to have spent more but wifey was already questioning the need for a new pc! :0).
That Antec combination got good reviews and the guys on here gave it the thumbs up.
The one niggly thing at the moment is the temps seem a bit high. Seems to idle in the mid 40s and when playing AH can get up to the late 60s so I'm about to have a look at the heatsink fan (stock fan) to see if its seated correctly and possible replace it and get some better thermal paste. Read that the CPU may be concave and some people lap them? Not sure I'm up to that!
Any thoughts?
I didnt rush it Kermit, being my first build like you say, I wanted to get it all in correctly and neatly. Apart from this temp business, it looks and runs very well.
Cheers
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Originally posted by Baggy
The one niggly thing at the moment is the temps seem a bit high. Seems to idle in the mid 40s and when playing AH can get up to the late 60s .
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Somethings not right.
Even when playing AH my cpu won't go past 40*c
High 60's for a conroe can damage it, so i'd try and fix it before continuing to push it. I read that 60.5* is the temp at which things start breaking down.
You sure you have enough air circulation? I also recommend a blow hole up top
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At different times I monitor temps on two different Conroe machines with no special cooling. The temps range between 40 and 43C on both of them. I'd get kind of excited if they got close to 60C. You may want to redo the thermal paste application. If you do a search for "arctic silver application" you'll get a detailed, illustrated set of instructions. The procedure requires only a small amount of paste applied in a specific way.
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Baggy, we have nearly the same systems. Mine idles between 30 and 32, running AH for hours it might hit 39 on a bad day. That's using the stock cooler and thermal compound that came with the CPU.
Since the thermal grease is already on the cooler when you get it, you may have put the cooler on in the wrong direction.
The real difference might be in our cases. I have 2 120mm fans and it does have a side air duct for the CPU.
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Thanks chaps,
I have the extra 120mm fan plus the 80 and 92 in the duct system so it should be ok!
I'm getting some Arctic Silver to stick on it. What is the correct orientation for the heatsink? It didn't specify in the instructions.
I really don't want to damage the cpu!
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I have the same CPU (E6420). It comes with 2 nearly-trapezoidal shapes of thermal paste on it. I think that's just "cool looks" marketing, as it'll all mush together when you put it on.
The proper way to orient the heatsink is such that the fan plug has enough reach to the fan power pins, but then you wrap the excess of the fan cables around the blades of the heatsink (if you can picture what I'm saying) so that you minimize the slack.
In short: It works no matter which way you mount it.
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(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.com/htc/hs2.jpg)
Those stripes aren't there for looks. They have to do with the location of the cores in the CPU and initial contact for the thermal compound.
The stripes should be vertical on the CPU for proper initial contact. If it was installed with the stripes horizontal on the CPU then that could be the problem.
If you use Arctic Silver, be sure to READ the instructions. A little goes a long way. Using too much is not good.
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NHawk, the thickness of the application of the factory-provided paste is such that putting it on the CPU itself would negate any pattern anyways. It would squash and mix together like play-doh. They might as well have just put a solid square block on like my previous HSF came with.
You want to use a very thin layer of AS5. The size of a small pea. About maybe 3 to 4 mm around. I think the instructions I printed out at home a while back suggested using a straight razor blade to squeegee it out flat across the top of the CPU, until it was nice and thin, then put the HS on top.
Oh, don't forget to clean the old factory-provided stuff off before putting AS5 on.
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I did have trouble getting the pins on the heatsink to click in and shifted it around so that may well be the problem. It would be nice for them to say which way to mount it in the instructions!
Thanks again guys
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Whats the best cleaner to use?
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ArctiClean?
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Mineral spirits work, if I recall. Or rubbing alcohol, I think. Those come to mind for things I've read on the AS5 instruction sheet I printed out a while ago.
Use a lint-free cloth, too.
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Krusty, just FYI this is directly from the AS5 instructions for a core 2 duo..
"Put a very thin line in close proximity to the center of the heatspreader as depicted in red, like the photo at left. Be CAREFUL to apply the thermal compound in the CORRECT DIRECTION"
(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.com/htc/arc.jpg)
For cleaning...Do not use nail polish remover as it contains fragrance oils and other contaminants. (If you use acetone, do a final cleaning with high-purity isopropyl alcohol.)
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Again, thanks for the info guys
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Originally posted by NHawk
Krusty, just FYI this is directly from the AS5 instructions for a core 2 duo..
"Put a very thin line in close proximity to the center of the heatspreader as depicted in red, like the photo at left. Be CAREFUL to apply the thermal compound in the CORRECT DIRECTION"
(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.com/htc/arc.jpg)
For cleaning...Do not use nail polish remover as it contains fragrance oils and other contaminants. (If you use acetone, do a final cleaning with high-purity isopropyl alcohol.)
Those same instructions also recommend using a coffee filter as a good lint free cloth. Kinda nice if you're scratching your head over what to use.
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I don't think that makes any sense. When you're done the paste will cover the entire top plate anyways. It will be uniform in thickness (being squashed flat) and will spread out. IMO it doesn't matter if you make a line like it says.
Also, not sure where they got that CPU, it looks like it's got a raised lip and that the top of the CPU drops inward several milimeters. No CPU I've seen in a LONG time has ever had that (because then the HS wouldn't be flat! It'd touch the rim and nothing else!!!)