Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: df54 on May 04, 2007, 04:39:20 PM
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Someone correct me if im wrong but i thought that109's control
surfaces were suppossed to tighten up at high speeds. Have posted
film at picture hanger which shows otherwise. There is no way a 109
should pull out of a dive at 450+mph
p.s. Not sure how to post film here
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We call it "trim"
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They do tighten up, and without manual trim and, depending on situation, kicking rudder you will not be able to pull out.
Learning how to handle the 109s at that speeds is your key to survival.
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I was in the yak and using steep dive for defensive tactic per soda.
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450MPH isn't that fast, really... The 109K-4 does that much in level flight (that's almost its top speed). A dive is going to have to get to 500mph for a 109 to stiffen up, and perhaps 550+ before it really locks up.
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The trick is to get the 109 to 450 (or more) then you do something that he can't.
He won't be able to follow your move.
It's one of the ways less maneuverable planes can win a fight.
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Yep, all you have to do is manually trim elevators up and it will pull right out.
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in other words gaming the game. in real world could 109 pull out of o dive at 450+mph
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Originally posted by df54
in other words gaming the game. in real world could 109 pull out of o dive at 450+mph
:huh
Manual trim is far from being gaming the game - it's what a real pilot constantly has to do.
And by the way, like it was already stated, the 109K has a top speed in level flight of more than 450 mph - so it must be able to dive at least that fast... :aok
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the only resson i dont fly me109s is the dives and turns. it always shutters when i turn it at about 250mph.
p51srule:aok
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I guess thses guys were gaming the game?
On May 4, 1940, a Bf.109E (Wn: 1304) was flown to RAF Boscombe Down, where it was appraised by the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment (A & AEE); then later flown to the Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) at Farnborough for handling trials, and allocated the serial number AE479. The results of the RAE's evaluation were discussed on Thursday, March 9, 1944 at a meeting of the Royal Aeronautical Society in London, at which M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE lectured on 'The aerodynamic features of German aircraft'. About the Bf.109E they had this to say:
Safety in the Dive
During a dive at 400 mph all three controls were in turn displaced slightly and released. No vibration, flutter or shaking developed. If the elevator is trimmed for level flight at full throttle, a large push is needed to hold in the dive, and there is a temptation to trim in. If, in fact, the airplane is trimmed into the dive, recovery is difficult unless the trimmer is pulled back owing to the excessive heaviness of the elevator.
[EDIT] I guess I could have pointed out that in the game, if you have combat trim turned on, it will automatically trim into the dive which is what the pilots above caution against, so if you don't trim out manually you will dive into the dirt like a lawn dart.
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I had a 109G2 over 500 mph in a dive the other day in the AVA.
No big deal, it still had elevator authority, although it was beginning to get sluggish.
cheers,
RTR
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All 109's have the same weakness to high speeds. Over 450mph they all suffer terrible compression problems that can lead to almost total loss of control in a terminal dive
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Originally posted by Krusty
450MPH isn't that fast, really... The 109K-4 does that much in level flight (that's almost its top speed). A dive is going to have to get to 500mph for a 109 to stiffen up, and perhaps 550+ before it really locks up.
Krusty has a good point there.
549 MPH B-N-Z started the dive from 25-K target was at or about 14-K or under that and i was able to regain 21-K of altitude back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr7SA7G8TXY
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Originally posted by df54
in other words gaming the game. in real world could 109 pull out of o dive at 450+mph
Yes 109 could pull out with ease at 450+. At 550 you need to use elevator trims.
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All 109's have the same weakness to high speeds. Over 450mph they all suffer terrible compression problems that can lead to almost total loss of control in a terminal dive
No, they suffered from heavy controls in pitch and roll axis when airspeeds were high. Compression is something different. 109s are reported to have easily recovered from dive speeds in excess of 800km/h safely. The elevator trim shifted the angle of the entire horizontal stab plane and was thoroughly effective.
Ofcourse, in reality, since the trim action required the pilot to use his left hand to manually turn the trim wheel, he'd only have his right hand to apply constant pressure on the stick during trim adjustment. If we assume 50lbs stick pressure for a normal, healthy pilot, in reality the pilot would be able to assert only about 25lbs with his right hand when his left hand is adjusting the trim wheel. But ofcourse, none of this bothers the AH planes, so nothing is more gamey with the 109s.
The roll axis, however, is a different story. This is the true bane of the 109s. While pitch momentum can be altered somewhat easily with the use of trim during combat, heavy and often unresponsive controls in the roll axis at those speeds, is the true reason why the 109 is not really fit as a pure BnZ fighter. Even slight jinking at speeds over 450mph will often make it very difficult for the 109 behind to follow.
The only real way to get out of this problem is if someone links up his trim controls to the stick control, so every time he swerves his stick left and right the trim would also be adjusted in the corresponding direction, effectively offsetting the effects of stiff controls. In this case, it could be considered quite "gamey".
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I had the opportunity to sit in a real Me-109 recently (actually, was a Hispano Buchon, but the only differences are the engine and instruments). There really is only six inches of travel, and then you're smacking your knees. I'm a rather small guy, too. I don't know how a six footer would fit in there.
As such, while you may be able to maintain control at high speeds, the ability to do drastic maneuvers (including a sudden pullout from a steep dive) would be severely limited - just as the real pilots said.
However, the game models this. The first time I dove an Me-109 at 25,000 feet, I didn't recover. With proper trimming, you can pull out. I see nothing unrealistic about the situation. Nothing needs to be fixed here. In short, both sides are partially right; the Me-109 did have bad problems in a dive, but it's modelled well in Aces High II already.
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Originally posted by Krusty
450MPH isn't that fast, really... The 109K-4 does that much in level flight (that's almost its top speed). A dive is going to have to get to 500mph for a 109 to stiffen up, and perhaps 550+ before it really locks up.
:huh 550 + :huh