Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Coshy on May 06, 2007, 12:24:41 AM
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I'm not currently a gun owner, mainly due to financial constraints. However things have recently changed and one of my first 'recreationial' purchases is going to be a gun.
I've got military experience behind me, so I'm familiar with handling firearms, (mainly M16s with some time on M249 and M60) what I'm not familiar with is how to chose a gun. There are just so many dang options, and I'm getting a little frustrated. I want to be an intellegent conusmer, but at the moment I don't know what I don't know.
Here is what I've decided so far:
Use - recreationial target shooting, occasionial deer hunting
Action - semi-auto or bolt action, I'm not really liking the lever or pump actions of the firearms I've looked at.
Caliber - Here is where I get all confused, it seems there are hundreds of calibers to chose from. I was originially thinking a 30-30, or 30-06, but then I have had the 270 and 243 recommended. I'm not afraid of a little recoil, but I dont want something that is going to knock my shoulder out of alignment if I decide to spend an afternoon at the range.
Stock - I'd prefer a wood stock, although I am aware of some advantages of synthetic stocks, I just like the way the wood stocks look.
Manufacturer - I'm open to suggestions, but here quality and reputation are very important to me.
Price - Again, here I'm a little undecided, I dont want to spend a small fortune, but I dont want to go cheap and get a piece of junk. $500 comes to mind, but I have no idea if that is in the high, medium, or low end.
I'm doing some research on my own, but having read these boards for the last few months I know there are some very knowledgable people here. I'm not going to take the first suggestion and run out and buy a firearm, this is going to be a purchase with a good deal of careful consideration behind it.
Thanks in advance for your comments/suggestions.
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whitetail or mule deer?
i hunt deer with a remington 25-06 its a nice gun....i dropped a deer at 300 yards with it.....it shoots flat
270 and 243 are good choices also
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You'll get some excellent advice here, but also Google for whatever terms come closest to what you might be interested in.
For example, theboxotruth.com has some interesting info about informal tests of the effectiveness of various kinds of ammo.
wikipedia.org often has pertinent overviews.
Another favorite is chuckhawks.com for many articles about most aspects of shooting and accessories.
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I like to use my Ruger Model 77 bolt action in .308 / 7.62mm NATO for deer hunting. Mine is stainless with a synthetic stock because I do take it out in the weather and bang it around, but they make the same rifle with a variety of very nice wood stocks as well. A .308 packs a healthy punch but with a decent recoil pad you can spend a day at the range without too much pain involved.
Caliber choice is going to be the tough one though. Many very good rounds out there that will bring a deer down, but some are more expensive than others. I like the .308 just because ammo doesn't cost a fortune and it's always available. It's a very common round to hunt with.
As far as what rifle to buy, in my opinion if your looking at a bolt action, Ruger, Remington, and Winchester make some of the best hunting rifles on the market but they do cost a bit more. For a decent entry level bolt rifle take a look at a Savage. The costs are lower than the big 3 and they are a good shooting rifle.
Best advice I can give you though is to go out to the local shooting ranges and gun stores and ask questions. Get your hands on some different rifles and find one that's comfortable to shoulder and hold a tight check weld with.
Good luck and be safe.
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68 - Its going to be whitetail deer.
Halo - Thanks for those sites, I'll be sure to check them out once I get more info.
Hornet33 - I plan on going to a couple local gun shops, as well as a gun show or two. My father and father-in-law have small arsenels that I've been checking out, most of theirs are pump or lever action. No semi or bolts, except for one my grandfather had.
Thanks for the info so far, looking forward to more.
As an additionial note, what publications, magazines, etc would be recommended for a novice gun owner?
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The 30-30 was one of the first (if not the first) smokeless powder rounds and is considered obsolete, although I find it one of the best rounds for hunting in heavy underbrush because it doesn't bounce as bad off small branches as other rounds do.
The 7mm is also a nice round to consider. Then theres the 300 Winchester Magnum which is good if you have allot of open fields, plus will drop most medium sized dear where they stand.
The most versatile hunting rounds in the world are the 375 H&H and the 338 Winchester Magnum, which are ones I would consider if I lived in Grizzly country. The 416 Rigby is the most common African round.
IMHO the .308 is the best all around for those of us who live in the South.
P.S. One warning about the 300 Winchester Magnum. This round is so powerful for its size that after 3000 rounds the barrel may start to warp and become inaccurate and will need to be replaced.
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Don’t put it all into a centerfire; get a cheap 22 as well.
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You can't go wrong with .30-06. I personally favor old military guns.
I'd suggest m1 garand, 1903, MN91/30, MN38. The last two you could pick up for REAL cheap, including the ammo. On top of that, they are arguably the most fun to shoot. They are reliable, pretty accurate given the circumstances, and the last one (the MN38) makes a huge ****ing bang. Enough to put a grin on any man's face.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You can't go wrong with .30-06. I personally favor old military guns.
I'd suggest m1 garand, 1903, MN91/30, MN38. The last two you could pick up for REAL cheap, including the ammo. On top of that, they are arguably the most fun to shoot. They are reliable, pretty accurate given the circumstances, and the last one (the MN38) makes a huge ****ing bang. Enough to put a grin on any man's face.
Dollar per quality he’s right.
They are: reliable, cheap, accurate, have plentiful parts, have wood stocks and even represent a bit of military history. How cool is that? Plenty of money left over for a Ruger 10-22 and a bunch of ammo for both.
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You just need a basic good, acurate and practical rifle. I think a Lahti 39 would be your best choice.
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Reloading your own ammo adds allot to your shooting experience and I suggest you look into that as well.
Also, It is said that the lever action 30-30s are the most accurate, though I saw that you don't like them.
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I am not a hunter anymore but my dentist has a lifetime of hunting and has 10 animals in boone and crocket.
He claims that the .270 is all he ever needs and has taken sheep at 400 yards.
He also says he would not feel bad having an ought six around..
I like the ought six and I reload so I can shoot my garand for cheap. You would probly not want to lug a garand around the trails all day hunting tho.
Any caliber with more recoil than a .243 will make you sore shooting very many rounds from the bench.
Surplus rifles are fun and cheap and ammo can be bought fairly cheaply. You can buy a 98 mauser for a couple hundred in 8mm and the ammo for cheap.
lazs
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My vote goes for the .270 also. If your hunting deer now, you may get the opportunity to hunt something larger down the road. The .270 is an excellent Elk rifle also, and there are various bullet weights to match the game you are hunting. However when you decide on the caliber you want, look into the Weatherby Vanguard that Walmart sells. I bought one for my son seven years ago. They are guarenteed to be accurate within an inch. The trigger is very sloppy but with a Timney trigger upgrade, it is a very sweet shooting rifle. He has taken two Elk, and an Antelope with it. I do reload the ammo for it so I have it dialed in. It is a reasonably priced gun for the money. Good Luck
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Since you list target shooting as well as hunting I lean torwards the .308 or 7.62 NATO (surplus ammo!!!) for caliber. In action I prefer the bolt for hunting and target. Brand, try a Savage, Remington, Ruger in that order for accuracy. Cost wise the Ruger would be ahead of the Remington in some places. The Remington and Savage would be easier to glass bed the action if you decide to do that.
For a Remington any of the 700 style actions are good. Personally I like the old 600 series for a short handy carbine style rifle with more than adequate accuracy.
I heartily second the bit about getting a .22 for plinking and fun shooting. It's cheap and lots of fun to take along with you when the heavy caliber would be too much to bother with. I like Marlins for the cost but Rugers can be fun too if heavier to deal with not to mention the magazine issue.
For readin magazines, I used to subscribe to Shooting Times and of course since I'm a life member I get the NRA's magazine too. Join the NRA and get the magazine, I doubt you'll go wrong there at all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Surplus rifles are fun and cheap and ammo can be bought fairly cheaply. You can buy a 98 mauser for a couple hundred in 8mm and the ammo for cheap.
lazs
Agreed, for the price he wants to spend, and the uses he lists, the surplus Mauser is a good choice, they are good rifles with cheap quality ammo available.
If he is willing to pay up to 4-5 hundred, you can get a practically new looking rifle. I am thinking of picking one up because they are such a classic look, great shooter and just overall cool slice of history.
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As an entry level, you can't go wrong with .270, .308, or 30-06. I prefer a Winchester Model 70 (out of production but you can still buy them) or a Ruger Model 77 bolt action. Simple, reliable, and accurate. Any of those three rounds will be plenty versatile. I prefer the 30 caliber rifles for the variety of bullets available. The 168 grain bullet is good all around, but you can go lighter, maybe 130 grain, for varmints, and up to 200 grain for mule deer or even moose or elk, IF you get close.
Also, these days Savage makes a couple of nice rifles, their Model 110 is a very good piece. Mossberg has their 4x4 bolt action, it too is a very nice and very accurate rifle. They are both a little more affordable than the Winchester or the Ruger, but still VERY solid, and accurate as well.
Get a scope, either 3x9x50 or 4x12x50. A Simmons will be more than good enough for an entry level rifle/scope combination. If you spend too much money on a scope, you'll not have enough money left over for a good case (I like a hard case AND a soft case, I use the hard case to store the rifle, but the soft case makes it easier to transport for hunting) and plenty of ammunition. You can get a Leupold or a Nikon, but you'll spend a lot more for it, enough to hurt your budget. Don't get me wrong, they are GREAT scopes, but they are twice what a Simmons costs.
I recently bought a Winchester Model 70 300 Winchester Magnum with a 26" barrel and a Simmons 3x9x40 scope, on http://www.gunbroker.com, for a total of $425 including shipping and transfer fee. It was new in the box. I have found that the 300 Winchester Magnum is about the best all around commercially available round there is. However, it is not really an entry level round, the recoil and muzzle blast are a bit much for the uninitiated. I've owned several 300 Winchester Magnum rifles, and never once have I had a barrel warp, I haven't even shot one out. And I shoot often, with very powerful handloaded ammunition.
You'll find that a GOOD quality wood stock will add well over $100 (at the very least) to the cost of a new rifle, IF you can find one. I love a good walnut stock as well as anyone, but I carry and shoot my rifles often, and I understand the advantages of synthetic stocks. For a rifle you'll SHOOT, a matte finish with a synthetic stock is really the way to go.
If you can find a friendly dealer who will handle the transfer for you for a decent fee, you can go to http://www.gunbroker.com or http://www.auctionarms.com and get a good deal, so long as you know how to work an auction, like you would on ebay. I've bought several nice weapons that way, the local shop does the transfers for a flat $40.
As to reloading, I couldn't afford to shoot my toys if I didn't reload, but it is NOT a hobby for everyone. The average cost of an RCBS reloading kit is over $200 these days, although a "Partner" kit is plenty good at $160 or so plus dies and a shell holder. Dies and a shell holder will cost around $45. Powder is usually $18 for a 1 pound can, primers are $15 for a brick of 1000, and bullets are around $18 for a box of 100. It is the best way to get accurate powerful ammunition you can afford.
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I've hunted Whitetail in PA, TN, VA and MD since 1972. I've used a Remington .222, Winchester Model 94 30-30, .32 Special (Model 94), .44 magnum (both pistol and Model 94 long gun), .303 British and Model 70 Winchester .270 (pre-64). (edit) Forgot about the vaious shotguns with slugs, but they don't count :) )
Hands down best rifle out of any of them, in all the various terrains and weather conditions was the .270. Absolutely flat shooting, very little recoil, reasonably priced ammo, and light enough not to kill your arms carrying it all day. It was my Grandfather's gun, so you can imagine how many rounds that barrel has put out. Yet every year at the beginning of the season I go to sight it in and it takes one round only. Right in the bulls-eyes, 100 yards, everytime. If you ever get into handloading or know someone who does, make yourself some 80 grain rounds. Fantastic varmit gun :)
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Ruger M77 prices are about typical for a bolt-gun, and if you do go Ruger you don't need to buy scope bases. The Ruger has 'em built-in. Their Hawkeye goes for about $750 in just about any caliber you could dream of: 25/06, 270, 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 30/06. All are suitable for deer, and a 7mm Mag or 30/06 is a dandy round for a critter up to elk-size. They also have an M77 MkII available with all sorts of options, including a Cooper-style scout rifle (Frontier model). http://www.ruger-firearms.com
Browning's A-Bolt is a great rifle, can be had with a BOSS (barrel harmonic tuner) to increase accuracy, and has about as many options as Ruger. Average price for a synthetic-stocked Stalker model are $7-900 depending on what options/caliber you want. http://www.browning.com
Another option is a Weatherby Vanguard. Retail is $5-700 depending on what options you want, and whether or not you get one in a Weatherby Magnum caliber. On the upside, you'll definitely get a VERY accurate rifle for a very good price. Should you decide on bagging a Weatherby Mag caliber be warned: they do kick, and a box of 20 rounds can go for very steep prices! We're talking $40+ instead of $20-something for a 270 or 308. http://www.weatherby.com
As far as Winchester's M70... If you can find one used in good condition, it'll probably be a good buy. I have yet to hear anything pleasant about the last batch from New Haven just before they closed down. Apparently the fit and finish was more typical of a Chinese knock-off than a Winchester product.
Marlin does make a pair of dandy lever-guns (1895 and 336) and a nice line of bolt-guns. I haven't heard much about their bolt guns, but what I have heard was on the positive-side. Lever actions are bar-none some of the best to be had. Should you go the lever-gun route, the 1895 will be far too much gun for deer; 45-70 is an anti-tank/bear/buffalo cartridge. The 336 is in 30-30 Win; much less damaging to meat and still capable of printing nice 100 yard groups. http://www.marlin.com
If you want a scope on your rifle (you'll need one on bolt guns) plan on spending 50% of the rifle's cost on optics. Leupold probably makes the best rifle scopes on Earth, right beside Zeiss. They've got models ranging from $300 to well over $1k and they are definitely worth it. Burris also make quality scopes, but with smaller numbers in their price tags. Bushnell is one I'd avoid, because they tend to run neck and neck with Tasco in the quality department. I can't speak for everyone, it's simply my experience and what I've heard from others. Simmons has a limited selection of good optics available, same goes for Nikon.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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Shooter's Bible is great for viewing the different firearms and current prices.
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=17-0883172860-0
The NRA has a couple good magazines you have a choice of when you become a member. American Rifleman and American Hunter. A very good hunting magazine is Deer and Deer Hunting.
Midway has an awesome catalog about the size of a telephone book. Lots of neat things to peruse in there. Graf and Sons and Shotgun News are good catalogs. I bought a Leupold scope from Graf and Sons and saved about $100 off local prices.
For fun, get a sub to Sportsman's Guide, an entertaining and not so serious catalog that has some unusual items in it. The descriptions of the various items are humorous and bring a chuckle.
There are good deer rifles made by all manufacturers. My deer rig is a Remington 700 ADL in .270 with a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5 to 14 power scope. I bought the rifle used from a shooting range shop and had to have the trigger pull re-adjusted (it was too light.) Once that was fixed it is a fine rifle for hunting and target shooting.
It's a good idea when going shopping for a rifle to have a knowledgeable friend go with you who can offer suggestions, or maybe they know someone who has a rifle for sale that might be what you're looking for.
Les
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there is only 1 rifle to get....
FN-FAL 7.62x51mm
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7707/cimg31672fc.jpg)
very very accurate..hunts very well..well for any game ..well if its bigger then a prairy dog..(if you want to have somthn left of it)
Very very rugged..wont fail you..great for zombie attacks as well
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Hmm, those pesky zombies are something to consider!
The more I read, here and other places, the more I'm leaning to either .308 or .270, with the .270 slightly in the lead.
I'm also narrowing down my list of manufacturers to Remington or Savage. The thought of owning an M1 is appealing, but I dont know that it would be something I'd want to lug around all day, and for my first one, I want something that is new.
I've also opened up to synthetic stocks. They seem to be a bit less expensive, and I wont screw up a synthetic stock if it rains or I drop it or bang it against a tree or rock.
Right now I'm looking at the Remington 700 BDL, 798 and 770 series as well as the Savage 11FCNS and 11FXP3.
The remington 798 is based on the Model 98 Mauser bolt action, but I would have to purchase the scope seperately.
The Remington 770, from what I've been able to understand, is basically a 700 with a scope. According to the Remington website, "It features the same great action and barrel as our Model 710 (based on the Model 700)...".
The Savage 11FCNS and FXP3 are the same gun, one without sights, one with a scope (FXP3).
Would I be better off purchasing a premounted gun & scope combo, or is it better to purchase the gun and then have the scope mounted?
I'd like to thank everyone for their comments, while I may not reply to each comment, be sure they are being read and considered.
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For hunting all you really need is a fixed 4x scope, but if you want to target shoot sometimes the variable magnification is desirable and can substitute as a spotter scope. Quality optics are important for low light hunting conditions, and that normally means buying a higher quality scope than what comes in a combo special. Much depends on your budget and how good your eyesight is. I recommend buying a rifle separate from the scope and then getting a high quality hunting scope with a heavy duplex recticle so you can see the crosshairs in low light conditions. The gunsmith can mount the scope using high quality steel rings and a one-piece base mount.
Avoid those aluminum see-through scope mounts (so you can see iron sights in addition to the scope.) They are virtually useless and will lose center frequently.
Les
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If you buy a Remington, get a REAL Model 700, and NOT one of the subvariants. The 700 is a nice piece, some of those subvariants are real cheap crap.
My last two Winchesters came with scopes already mounted, and were zeroed with less than a box of ammunition. Both had a Simmons 3x9x40, and both shot MOA or better at 100 yards out of the box, with store bought ammo. I took them out of the box, cleaned them, oiled them lightly, carried them to the range, and had them ready to hunt with in well under a 1/2 hour. Hard to beat, one was under $350, the other was under $450.
If you like your ears, and you intend to hunt, avoid all the muzzle brakes and "tuning systems". Outside of really big magnums, a muzzle brake is nothing more than abuse for your ears. And the muzzle brake/tuning systems are just needless complexity combined with excess noise. Less than 1 in 100 shooters I know of actually tuned one of those and made any progress. Some of the gunsmith suppliers like Midway and Brownell's offer a piece that replaces them to eliminate the noise.
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Originally posted by BiGBMAW
there is only 1 rifle to get....
FN-FAL 7.62x51mm
very very accurate..hunts very well..well for any game ..well if its bigger then a prairy dog..(if you want to have somthn left of it)
Very very rugged..wont fail you..great for zombie attacks as well
A lot of people would disagree. The FAL is a decent weapon, but not the best at anything.
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Biggest determiner for a long gun, outside of shoulder dislocation, is what terrain types you will be hunting in.
Brush: Most any of the .30 caliber will work fine. I have a 3/4" steel plate with a dandy crater in it on my desk as a paper weight. The crater was made by a 30-30 150gr JSP at 75 yards. The back side of this steel paper weight is bowed out about 1/8'th inch. 30-06 just made the crater a little deeper.
Open ground: 270 on up to 308 works fine. Personal preference is inherited 270 bolt action with double set triggers.
30-30 has a bit of a drop off at long range, while the 270 and 30-06 are nearly comparable in ballistics performance, and the 308 is slightly better than those two.
Caliber prices vary widely, but the .308 seems to price right in there with 30-30 and 30-06 if you do not plan on reloading.
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Virgil, do you limit the amount of rounds you fire within a 15 min period of time to keep the barrel from getting too hot? I have heard of some competition shooters doing that to extend the life of their rifles
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm
Bigger magnum hunting type rounds will shoot from 1500-3000 accurate rounds. But the bigger 30-378 Weatherby types won't do as well, being closer to the 1500 round figure.
That above site really wasn't the info I was looking for, but it's close.
I've owned two 300 Winchester Magnums, one ended up getting a warped barrel the other I ended up having to sell because of medical bills. I spoke to some hunting friends and three of them had had similar problems with warping, while the rest said they had not seen any evidence of that happening. I have seen people make some amazing hunting shots with a 300 Winchester Magnum.
Allot of people I know swear by the .270, though I never seemed to have much luck with them, but then again I never really spent much time with one.
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If you're looking for a new gun, probably the best cost/benefit package right now is the Savage.
Cabela's routinely sells a Savage in a synthetic stock with a Simmons 3x9x40 on it for about $460, all the standard calibers. Most other rifles will cost you $550+ just for the rifle and scope, rings and bases on for a similar Simmons set up will easily go over $100 even on sale. Savage presently has a very good reputation for out of the box accuracy with their bedding system and adjustable Accutrigger. Not the fanciest of rifles but they sure seem to be shooters.
I've been shooting a .270 for years on everything from prairie dogs to large mule deer and am very, very satisfied with this caliber. Very accurate, modest recoil, ammo is easily available and relatively cheap.
If you think you maybe recoil sensitive, go with a .243. It's also capable of taking everything up to and including deer with no problems. (Had a friend drop a standing antelope at 453 yards with one well placed shot.) Another very accurate round, minimal recoil and easy/cheap ammo availability.
Enjoy!
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30-06 for one reason. LOTS OF BULLET CHOICES! If you aint afraid of a lil recoil then this would be your best bet.
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My deer and elk rifle is a Ruger No 1 in 270 winchester. Economical, ergonomical, very accurate after some tweaking with the front stock. And it's a beautiful rifle. Almost like an off the shelf Dakota Model 10.
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Honestly, for your first hunting rifle just get a $200 used rifle in reasonable condition. By reasonable I mean that there's not something very wrong with it that affects accuracy. For any hunting rifle to be unacceptably innacurate, something would have to be very wrong with it. Don't split hairs over the caliber much, any of the deer and elk calibers are quite sufficient.
Then start saving for a nicer rifle, something formal and classy. Something that you'll want to be your hunting rifle for the rest of your life. Good hunting rifles become family heirlooms and tend to stay in the family for generations.
I'd say pretty much the same thing about hunting knifes, first just use a good solid Buck knife. And then when you know more about what you want out of a knife. Save up for a nice looking high quality knife that you would want to hang on your belt even when you're 70 and toothless.
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270 is perhaps one of the best all around rounds you can find. Flat shooting and fast, its easier on the shoulder than the 308 or 06. Capable of dropping anything from a deer up to a moose. Common with a wide variety of ammo available for it, at reasonable prices. It shoots almost as flat as the .243 with much better penetration and double the energy downrange.
I had a .243 and loved it, was fantastic for vermin & varmints, and antelope. Loved dusting crows at 300-400 yards with it. But its a bit light for a good deer rifle and outclassed for anything bigger.
Good military rifles in 30-06 or .308 nato are also excellent all around performers.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Virgil, do you limit the amount of rounds you fire within a 15 min period of time to keep the barrel from getting too hot? I have heard of some competition shooters doing that to extend the life of their rifles
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm
That above site really wasn't the info I was looking for, but it's close.
I've owned two 300 Winchester Magnums, one ended up getting a warped barrel the other I ended up having to sell because of medical bills. I spoke to some hunting friends and three of them had had similar problems with warping, while the rest said they had not seen any evidence of that happening. I have seen people make some amazing hunting shots with a 300 Winchester Magnum.
Allot of people I know swear by the .270, though I never seemed to have much luck with them, but then again I never really spent much time with one.
The 300 Winchester is a fairly large over bore, but not like my old 220 Swift. The 220 Swift is pretty easy to shoot the barrel out of. I do not consciously limit my number of rounds per minute, I suppose it is sort of automatic, since when I'm out shooting it, I'm working on accuracy most often. I honestly do shoot near max loads, that's what my rifles have preferred for accuracy. I'm pushing a 168 grain Sierra Match King at around 3300 FPS.
It isn't warpage that happens, well, not that I'm aware of. At least not that I've seen. What happens is the throat gets eroded. The large amount of powder tends to heat the barrel to a greater degree, and if you shoot until you overheat the barrel, the next shots will begin to torch away small bits of metal (almost microscopic). That makes the throat rougher, and drives pressure up, making the over heating problem worse. As you erode the throat, the pressure curve becomes very inconsistent, and the friction changes from shot to shot. It causes the shot groups to enlarge. I suppose if you could get the barrel hot enough, it'd warp under its own weight. Or possibly if you got it pretty hot, and then stood it up somewhere leaning it against an object supported by the barrel it might warp. The thing is, the rifle would lose a lot of accuracy before you got the barrel that hot.
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Thank you Capt. I'm trying to remember if I've ever leaned mine hot, that seems very probable and I won't do that again.
I really liked the 300 Winchester Magnum, but was turned off by the increasing changes in accuracy. Now I'm thinking about getting another one since you seemed to have explained so many thing that may have happened. I'm older now and tend to take better care of my things.
P.S. Capt. Could the type of powder you use in your reloads have an effect on barrel life? What type of powder do you use in your 300 Winchester Mag rounds and how much? Do you know how many C.U.P.s it produces?
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From what I've read and seen again on this thread, the .270 is a great hunting caliber. Also hear consistent praise for .308, 30-06 and 30-30 too.
Since I don't hunt, and just plink or shoot paper at short ranges, my favorite long gun is an M1 .30-caliber Carbine replica by Auto-Ordnance/Kahr. I really liked the M1 Carbine the first time I shot it many years ago in the Air Force, and have never found a long gun that just plain feels as good to handle and shoot.
Hunters reportedly consider the M1 Carbine a minimum for deer and fun for varmints. Its most effective range is said to be around 200 yards and under, but 100 and under would be even better. Its light weight (under six pounds) and exceptionally good iron sights make it effective in brush and heavy cover, and its wood stock and overall feel make it more like a companion than a tool.
New 5-round mags are available for hunting and make the M1 even sleeker and easier to handle. However, the M1 Carbine's wonderfully satisfying loud bolt click, useful in home defense mode, surely would spook any game not wearing earmuffs.
Could always chamber a round and put the safety on, of course, which I suppose is the way hunters do it when they get on the shooting ground.
Anyway, with all the excellent long gun perspective in this thread, didn't want you to overlook the M1 Carbine as a dark horse possibility or a just a fun gun anytime in the future.
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my favorite long gun is an M1 .30-caliber Carbine replica by Auto-Ordnance/Kahr.
I just ordered a late features service grade Inland from CMP for $495. Part of a return of carbines loaned to Italy after WW2. Since they had 4000 orders arrive on the first day of the offer it might be some time before it gets processed and shipped. It will go well with my early features Inland.
As noted, a carbine is a bit marginal for clean kills at beyond 50-75 yards with deer sized game. However, for plinking (somewhat higher relative ammo costs aside) it's excellent and for home defense use it puts out the same energy a .357 generates at the muzzle at 100 yards. Also a great firearm for women and children to use moving up from a .22.
And, it doesn't look as evil as an AR or AK series, which, unfortunatly, is a ban consideration in the Peoples' Republic of Illinois. Not an over use of the cliche since we are, in both the 2nd and with new unfunded social welfare initiatives, giving California and Mass. a run for their money as most liberal state in the country.
Charon
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270 or 30-06. 30-06 has a lot of cartidges available and you can hunt about anything in North America.
Savage makes a nice bolt action at a reasonable price. Get a good recoil pad like a Limbsaver. Get a good quality scope.
No need to go exotic with calibers and such.
Vented/ported barrels are nice but so darn loud. Hate shooting next to someone that has one.
30-30 has a new awakening with the LeverEvolution ammo. I pulled my old Marlin 336 out of mothball that's 30 years old (xmas present) and have started shooting/hunting with it again. That ammo is impressive.
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Buy 2 guns since you mention only "occasional" deer hunting. This is what I did. Get a little .22 or a nice .223 for practice on the range (I got both, a ruger 10-22 and mini-14) and then get a decent hunting rifle in a larger caliber for hunting. The savings in cost of practice ammuntion by doing most of your shooting with .22 or .223 ammo will pay for the cost of the second gun after a few years.
For me, it's pretty easy math...
7mm rem mag: $1.50 - $3 per round
.22: $15 per box of 500
.223: $5 for box of 20
You can get .22 and .223 ammo even cheaper in some places, but I'm personally wary of buying reloads from some guy at the local gun show, and I've never wanted/needed to buy enough ammo at once to get the bulk discounts. Even buying ammo at wal-mart, the savings in just the first 500-1000 rounds will be enough to pay for the second gun.
For a specific recommendation for a nice hunting cartridge, I really like the 7mm remmington magnum. It shoots very flat and it's a flexible enough round to take anything from deer to moose depending on what bullet weight you select. It was the best one-size-fits-all gun I could find at the time. I got a browning a-bolt with the BOSS anti-recoil and barrel tuning dingus, and it really helps tame the recoil (it has a much lower felt recoil than my brother's 30-06) but it was not inexpensive. Still, I sighted it in at 200 yards using heavy game ammo and I'm confident that I can hold just a touch high of center on any game from point blank out to 400 yards, and get a lethal hit plus-minus a few inches of my aimpoint without having to correct for range and bullet rise/drop.
Regarding criticisms of the barrel tuning and anti-recoil devices, maybe I just had good luck but I chopped my group size at 200 yards in half in just one day at the range when going from straight out of the box to using recommended BOSS settings for the bullet weight I was shooting. There is no black blast worth noting and it really does reduce felt recoil as long as you are holding the gun nice and snugly because the recoil impulse is stretched out over a longer period of time. If you give it a running start at your shoulder, yea it'll hurt, but if held properly it feels like it has about 1/3 the recoil as my brother's 30.06. It didn't seem to have a noticeably greater amount of noise or blast. It's probably not worth it for a casual shooter but if you go for a beefier or magnum round, I'd consider at least one of the anti-recoil devices. If possible, try shooting your cartridge of choice both with and without an anti-recoil device (or porting) and decide which one you like better.
If you get a second gun for practice though, having an anti-recoil system matters less and less because you'll only shoot it at the range to sight it in and for basic familiarization/proficiency, while you keep your generic shooting skills up to speed using something cheaper to shoot.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Thank you Capt. I'm trying to remember if I've ever leaned mine hot, that seems very probable and I won't do that again.
I really liked the 300 Winchester Magnum, but was turned off by the increasing changes in accuracy. Now I'm thinking about getting another one since you seemed to have explained so many thing that may have happened. I'm older now and tend to take better care of my things.
P.S. Capt. Could the type of powder you use in your reloads have an effect on barrel life? What type of powder do you use in your 300 Winchester Mag rounds and how much? Do you know how many C.U.P.s it produces?
It is possible that the wrong type of powder could cause erosion issues and other problems.
I've been using IMR 4350 powder for years. IMR was recently purchased by Hogdon. I've begun to do some experimenting with slightly different powders. I used to use 4350 because it worked well in all of my rifles, and those of my friends and family. For the same reason I used WW 296 for my handgun loads, because it worked in all of our large caliber handguns. These days there may be around a 1/2 dozen different powders in my cabinet.
The amount of powder needed varies greatly. Barrel length, chamber depth, overall cartridge length, and the condition of the barrel can all change the pressure and as such the amount of powder. As my load is a near max load from an OLD manual (I've been shooting the same load for decades) I don't tell people exactly what it is, for liability reasons among others. I'm sure my pressure is at or near the top, and in a different rifle could be a proof load levels.
Get yourself a couple of good reloading manuals and work up your loads according to their instructions. Hogdon has a good manual, as does Sierra. What you find is that for example a Sierra manual will only have data for their bullets, and until this year a Hogdon manual only had data for their powders. This year, Hogdon started listing powders that they test and distribute, however the new manual has fewer cartridges in it. I don't have a copy of the new one, mine is a few years old. But you need to get at least a couple of manuals, and read them thoroughly and carefully. Learn all of the signs of excessive pressure, and of other problems. Then carefully work up your loads, remembering that you may reach excessive pressure before you get to their max load, or maybe not until after. Barrels are like people, no two are exactly alike, so no two exhibit the same attributes.
A few tips on the 300 Winchester. The 300 Winchester can be extremely accurate as witnessed by its current use as a mid range sniper rifle and competition rifle by the army. Given the case dimensions, especially the short neck, it should not be as accurate as it is, but it is.
First, get a rifle with a GOOD 26" barrel. If you don't have 26" to work with, forget a 300 Winchester, you're wasting powder making muzzle blast and flash. You want at least a medium taper barrel, not a slim sporter. And 1-10 twist. It IS worth it to by a used rifle and send it to E.R. Shaw and have them put a nice match barrel on it, as well as their other tricks and tweaks. They can take any 30-06 bolt action of good quality and rebarrel it with a nice match barrel as well as do their action magic for under $300. There is a back log of about 4 months. But it is the best budget approach to having a super nice shooting 300 Winchester. If you bought a used Model 70 for $300 or so, and had E.R. Shaw do their thing, you'd be at or under $600, for a better rifle than you can buy for $750. On my Model 70 rifles I adjust my own triggers for release and travel. But I learned how to do it over time.
Fireform your cases to YOUR Rifle, and from then on, DO NOT full length resize, neck size ONLY, and use thme in your rifle only. The 300 Winchester has a short neck, it is less than one full caliber in length. So getting the neck sized correctly is critical, and full length sizing is wasting time and effort, and hardening your brass.
Use a powder that fills the case for your selected power level, so that powder is uniformly distributed. The 300 Winchester is a hot high pressure round, and it likes to be pushed, it does not do well loaded down, so work your way up to something fairly hot that shoots well.
Clean the flash holes and primer pockets, religiously. Measure the case thickness at the neck and beware any changes.
Experiment with seating depth of the bullet. Different chambers are different lengths, you need to find the right length for YOUR gun. Watch carefully for pressure when varying over all length, as length, and how close the bullet is to engaging the rifling WILL change pressure.
Competition dies DO make a difference. RCBS dies are nice, Saeco Redding is even better. When seating bullets and taper crimping the case neck, rotate the case 90 degrees 2-3 times to make sure you have a concentric taper crimp.
That should give you a good start.
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Experiment with seating depth of the bullet. Different chambers are different lengths, you need to find the right length for YOUR gun. Watch carefully for pressure when varying over all length, as length, and how close the bullet is to engaging the rifling WILL change pressure.
Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?
P.S. Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.
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Surplus M38 or Mauser, and a .22 plinker. When I get back to the states my first purchase is going to be a authentic 98k to complement my current yugo from 44.
Men carry surplus. limp wristed nancy boys ***** about the weight of the sporterized crap
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Originally posted by Xargos
Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?
P.S. Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.
Xargos,
That depends on the individual rifle. What works for one rifle may not work for the one made just before or after yours. It's a trial and error situation and makes setting up "pet" loads for your rifle a labor of love. Every one is an individual and will perform best when you work out all of the variables. Consider different brands and lots of cases, primers, powder and bullets. Changing one variable means you may have to start it over. That will mean you will be forced, forced I say, to go to the range and find what works best.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?
P.S. Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.
Maverick is quite correct. Often if the bullet is touching or nearly touching, the pressure rise will be greater than if it has a little travel. It does depend greatly upon the rifle and all the variables in the load.
I'm a fine one to talk, because I haven't bought one yet to replace the one I had that someone screwed up, but Oehler has great prices on chronographs, and serious reloaders should have one. You can use it to find major deviations in velocity, that'll let you know how consistent a load is.
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The closest outdoor range is very far from me and is an all day affair, I'm just trying to get a good idea on where to start. I have three manuals, one is from the 1950's, but I may need to look at getting more it seems. I don't like indoor ranges because I have had lead poisoning in the past and I question how well they are ventilated.
Any helpful hints will be welcome. We all have different experiences, so what might seem obvious to some might not have ever been considered by another.
It might be better if I started another thread on reloading as not to totally hijack this one.
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I don't know of many indoor ranges that are capable of handling a 300 Winchester. It's a bit much.
IF you get a collet style (ruins the bullet) or inertia style bullet puller, you can load up incrementally hotter loads, say ten rounds each 0.2 grains apart, and take them to the range to try them. If you get to seeing pressure signs before you shoot the hottest loads, you can always pull the bullets and salvage some of the components.
There is no substitute for serious hardcore testing, there just aren't any shortcuts. There are just way too many variables just in the firearms, without bringing the reloading components (like differing lots of primers and powders, just for one or two examples) into the mix.
My old RCBS manual has some loads that are pretty damned hot compared to my newer Hornady and Sierra manuals. Now, my old RCBS manual was written back when Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith were still alive and kicking. The really cool thing about the RCBS manual is it has an article by Jack O'Connor on pressure and reloading.
Speaking of Jack O'Connor, he was probably one of the best hunters and writers of the old school. A serious diehard proponent of the .270 by the way, and took a LOT of game with it. These days, few writers are even close to him, Craig Boddington maybe the closest.
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I've got the old manuals too. The loads have definitely reduced in the new books. I don't think there's any problems with the old or new rifles, I think there's problems with the new lawyers. ;)
I went to school with Boddington. He knew he was going to be a gun writer when we were in college. You have to admire a guy that picks a dream and makes it happen. The only really strange thing about him was that he was Marine ROTC. :)
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What do you think the best scales are?
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Originally posted by Xargos
What do you think the best scales are?
I've had good luck with my RCBS (Ohaus) 5-0-5 scales. In fact, when they got out of calibration, Ohaus replaced both sets of scales for what it cost me to ship them the scales. Scales are mostly as good as you treat them. Most all problems are operator induced. Keep a good notebook, with a lot of detailed records. Weigh a couple of bullets, preferably at very different weights (say a 55 grain .223 bullet, a 168 grain .30 bullet, a 240 grain .44 bullet, and a 320 grain 44 bullet), write the weights in the notebook, then store THOSE bullets in your supply cabinet. You can use them to check your scales any time you want.
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Hmm....
I think all you really need is:
(http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/071282000/71282557/pix836856781.jpg)
Plenty of knock-down!
Really though, your .308 or .270 are great rifles, as are many 30-06's. I love my Remington 700.
For brush and long treks backcountry where you need to bust through foilage, the Marlin 1895GS in .45-70 is a terrific weapon, but it definately lets you know you've fired with its recoil ;) It also fits nicely in any canoe, brush plane or ATV you happen to be riding in...and will stop a moose or grizzly in its tracks.
My next rifle will probably be one of these:
(http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Suppliers/Springfield%20Armory/SOCOMGENII.jpg)
"New for 2005 is the M1A SOCOM 11. Compact and powerful, it features a 16-inch barrel (the shotest allowed for a civilian-owned rifle) made possible by a retuned gas system. It is a heavy-caliber alternative for a CQB (Close Quarters Battle) rifle. as well as the ideal patrol, ranch or pickup rifle. other features include a black fiberglass stock, forward-mounted scout-style scope mount, and a proprietary muzzle break that virtually eliminates muzzle rise. The new Cluster Rail System of the SOCOM II further enhances its versatility by accommodating virtually any optic, light or other accessory designed to fit a standard picatinny rail.Around the world or deep in the backcountry, trust the M1A SOCOM 16."
YUMMY!
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Xargos - No need to worry about hijack, the reloading stuff is interesting. Not something I'm prepared to do, but something I am interested in.
Suave, you recommended going to a pawn shop, this is something I have thought about ... but I'm not experienced enough not to get shafted. It really comes down to a matter of trust, I trust the manufacturers to put out a good quality product, I dont trust the local pawn shops to sell a good quality product. However, it wouldn't hurt a bit to go look.
Several people have mentioned getting a .22, I'm not against the idea, but I don't typically buy things I don't have a use for. I don't have varmits to shoot at, and if I'm going to the range to practice, wouldnt it be better to practice on the gun I'm going to be shooting? Or would it be more like a warm up?
Again, you guys have been great, thanks for all the replies!
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Shooting combines breath control, trigger control, stance, sight picture, timing and a host of other physical abilities. You can practice all of these with a .22 for less than .02 a round. Or you can practice all of those with a .270 for ~ .50 a round (currently on sale for $9.99/box at Cabela's. ;) )
The skills do transfer. Just get a decent .22 that shoots consistently to point of aim.
So yes, a .22 is a logical investment.
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Warspawn, that SOCOM is a nose heavy, clumsy chunk. I haven't shot one yet but I've fooled around with one in a store. It'd be ok for a take-it-to-the-range gun but I'm already certain I wouldn't want to lug one around, especially when somebody loads up those front rails with all the tacti-cool stuff. Just my .02.
I like the idea a lot; I'm not too impressed with the execution.
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As already stated anything you're gonna do with a large gun can be practiced (and honed to an art) with a small caliber gun (.22). Especially if you're wanting to practice things like fast acquisition of sight picture with a scope, breath control, action/trigger control, etc.
If you're getting a bolt action rifle with a scope for deer , get a bolt action .22 (Marlin makes the best I've ever shot) with a scope and practice with it. The ammo is cheaper, and the same basic principles apply to both. I like using my shotgun for small game (works better on grouse than the .22 ;) ) so my "seasonal practice" for the deer rifle is to use my marlin .22 to hunt groundhog. And if you can hone your skills to the point of consistantly hitting a movin target with a rimfire rifle (or a small paper circle for that matter) then you should have no problem taking down larger game (ala Deer) with one round :cool:
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Any time you are playing at near max pressure loads for a cartridge you should remember that the same powder varies from lot to lot much less later production runs that may have been tweaked by changing componenet. I scoured the shops for the new suplemntary powder booklets printed by the propellant manufacturers. Because they doi change the formulation and their components also have changes from time to time, the burning rates and pressures also change. If you are already at the max for one lot of powder, the new lot may actually put you over.
Some rapid burning powders also have significant changes in burning rates with small changes in pressure. This can change the way it performs dramatically. I stopped "hot rodding" my loads a while back when I had to pound cases out of my old Model 28 (.357 built on a .44 mag frame by S&W) by loading a set of rounds with a new lot of the same old powder I had been using. Nothing else had changed and I used a scale to weigh each round (my habit with max loads in all cartidges) as they were loaded on a single stage press.
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Yeah, I saw a SOCOM .308 last week at a gun show. Impressive but I agree with the assessment of heavy, especially at the nose.
One of my sons-in-law is a veteran hunter and still prefers his Ruger M77 bolt action 30-06. As he says, "It only takes one shot with that." He has bagged a lot of Virginia deer with it.
Talked this morning with a guy back from two tours in Iraq with the Virginia National Guard. I asked him how he liked the M4. He said it takes more getting used to, that the M16 has more range. He said the .308 would have more oomph but the .223 is just fine.
He also emphasized the importance of getting skilled on iron sights first because sooner or later you can have a problem with batteries on the electronic sights. He does like the electronic sights, but in effect says don't bet your life on them (my interpretation).
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Originally posted by Toad
Warspawn, that SOCOM is a nose heavy, clumsy chunk. I haven't shot one yet but I've fooled around with one in a store. It'd be ok for a take-it-to-the-range gun but I'm already certain I wouldn't want to lug one around, especially when somebody loads up those front rails with all the tacti-cool stuff. Just my .02.
I like the idea a lot; I'm not too impressed with the execution.
Ah, that's too bad. I love the M-14; figured this would be a logical progression of the design. Maybe I'll just stick to my lever-action .45-70.
What I really wanted was a light-weight, short barreled semi-auto in a heavy caliber to protect against the ocassional grizzly or kodiak that decides to eat my plane, me and any passengers or supplies when I'm flying in and restocking fishers during salmon season. I've never had a problem where they wouldn't back off when I approached, but one guy got severly mauled at a lake when he was carrying up rations to a cabin from the dock where he'd parked his amphib. His weapon was in the aircraft; didn't do much good there. Was a bulky Weatherby .300 mag that just got too heavy for him to lug everywhere.
I may take another look at that BAR I saw in .300 WSM (the 'short' magnum round that's been very popular in semi-autos). Very impressive ballistics, and it only weighs 7 lbs or so...
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A .223 will feel more like your hunting rifle (more recoil, probably a heavier gun, etc) and it'll still be cheaper to shoot than even a .270 or .243.
As for practicing at the range with your hunting rifle, if you want to be any good at all you need to fire hundreds of rounds from a variety of positions - prone, kneeling, sitting, over a low barrier, over a high barrier, around the side of a barrier, etc., because you never know what field condition you'll be in when you sight your target in the field. Unless your hunting will be strictly limited to sitting in a blind shooting at whatever wanders past, you really should be familiar with shooting from any position. That takes practice, and you'll wear out your shoulder, your gun, and your wallet if you use your primary hunting rifle to get that kind of experience.
So get a decent gun that is cheap to shoot, either .22 for the cheapest way to practice, or .223 for cheap but with enough recoil and noise to help keep you from flinching when you fire your hunting rifle. Wear it out. Shoot that sucker until it needs a new barrel. That way you can buy a hunting rifle that fits your desired game, not something that you will be using both for practice and hunting. If you will NEVER want to hunt large game, by all means get something small. But if you want a more flexible round that can be used for a wider variety of game, get something more powerful. Take it to the range and fire a handful of rounds through it each trip after you're done firing the cheaper practice rifle. That way you build general skills cheaply, and maintain familiarity with your hunting rifle without breaking the bank or your shoulder.
There are tons of neat .223 M-16 / AR-15 knockoff sporter rifles on the market and they're fine guns, but they all seem to be a bit pricy to me and when you carry them around in the field the BLM and other govt goons tend to jump straight from "hi" to "you're a terrorist, give me your gun" even when it's perfectly legal. There are plenty of cheaper .223 rifles out there that shoot just as good, cost less, and won't trigger the federal busybody patrols into panic mode.
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I think browning makes a 300 Winchester Magnum lever action with a 24 inch barrel that maybe easier for you to lug around instead of that 45-70, but I haven't heard much about it.
Grizzlies scare the hell out of me, if I had to trot around in their territory I'd be lugging a 338 Winchester Magnum around just for extra peace of mind. Even though they are bulky and kick three times more then a .270.
P.S. Capt, I found this quote when I was looking up info on the 375 H&H.
"The .375 is one of my real enthusiasms in big-game cartridges. If I were going to hunt all over the world and could use only one rifle, it would be the .375. If I could have only two, one would be a .375 and the other would be a .270." -- Jack O'Connor, The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, Outdoor Life (1961).
P.P.S. I find this interesting about a 375 H&H on the same site.
Sadly, these rifles are no longer in production. The pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 is perhaps the greatest bolt-action sporting rifle ever made. Such a gun is the dream of many a well-read sportsman. What makes the pre-'64 Model 70 stand apart from is post-'64 sisters is its controlled round feeding where the cartridge being chambered is grabbed by the claw extractor and held as it is pushed into the chamber. This allows feeding of the action upside down while you are lying on your back and being mauled by a bear, lion, buffalo, etc.
http://webpages.charter.net/375magnum/index.htm
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Interesting .375 H&H link. Thanks, Xargos.
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Were I going to an area where I might run into a pissed off grizzly, I'd want either my 44 in my shoulder holster, or my 45 Colt on my hip, just for back up. I have loads for both of them that push 300 grain hardcast lead bullets to the high side of 1250 FPS. Close in, those will penetrate a grizzly skull, at less than ideal angles. They'll also smash large bones like shoulders and hips, and they penetrate real deep.
I may actually get to go where there are grizzlies and kodiaks, I'm thinking about a nice lever gun in 50 Alaskan, and maybe getting a 445 SuperMag or a 454 Casull.
When I do hunt where there might be bears or big hogs, I carry my Dan Wesson in a Galco shoulder holster, loaded with the 300 grain shells, and with two speed loaders with more of the same.
I hear a lot of people talk about wanting a big bolt action rifle like a 338 Winchester or a 375 H&H for big nasty pissed off animals. What really stops them is large diameter, heavy, medium velocity non expanding slugs. If you're in close proximity, the faster handling the weapon the better. Long bolt action rifles with long magnum actions are not fast handling. Short lever guns and handguns are. The only drawback to my single action 45 is it is slow to reload.
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The 454 Casull is a beast. A friend let me shoot his and the six rounds I fired made my hand hurt the rest of the day. What type of frame do they have, it reminded me of a plow handle?
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The grip frame is similar to a Colt SAA, Ruger Blackhawk, or Ruger Vaquero.
Shooting large caliber high power handguns takes a special technique and practice. You have to learn to work with the recoil, not against it. The single action grips allow the gun to roll through your hand under recoil. If you work with it, it really works well. Now, admittedly, my buddy at the gun shop calls me the worlds foremost leading recoil junkie.
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I had never heard about the 50 Alaskan before, interesting. Sounds like a nice lever gun to protect yourself from grizzlies, that isn't too cumbersome.
If you're like me and like big bore leverguns and sixguns the .50 Alaskan might be just what you need. I like to have a carbine of some sort for every caliber sixgun that I shoot. If you shoot a .500 Linebaugh or .500 Long you could also shoot them in the rifle. So if you are able to have one made I hope you have as much fun with it as I’m having with mine. Everyone that sees it sure seems to like it such power in a small package.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/50_alaskan.htm
Since the rifle was designed for use on Alaska’s great bears, Johnson cut 720-grain boat-tail .50 BMG bullets in half, seating the 450-grain rear half upside down in the fireformed .50-caliber case. It didn’t take Johnson long to find out that the 450-grain truncated shaped “solid” would shoot through a big brown bear from any direction, claiming in 1988, “I never recovered a slug from a bear or moose, no matter what angle the animal was shot at.”
http://www.z-hat.com/The%20Fifty.htm
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Originally posted by Warspawn
Ah, that's too bad. I love the M-14; figured this would be a logical progression of the design....
... His weapon was in the aircraft; didn't do much good there. Was a bulky Weatherby .300 mag that just got too heavy for him to lug everywhere.
It seemed to me that they made the synthetic stock out of synthetic lead or something. I wonder if someone makes or will make a SOCOM stock out of lighter stuff.
I have a Wby .300 in a B&C stock; I've carried it many a thousand feet climbing in the Colorado rockies. It feels WAY lighter than that SOCOM and "handier" to boot, even with the much longer barrel.
I kept looking at the SOCOM and thinking there is no way the barreled action weighs that much. It HAS to be the stock. I could be wrong but.. ugh. It was no fun to even hold.
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Xargos, if you want controlled round feeding and a three position Modely 70 safety, Kimber will be happy to sell you a rifle.
I think you'll be satisfied with their quality and accuracy vis-a-vis a pre-'64.
The Ruger Mark II 77 series offers both of these features as well.
Just two off the top of my head. I think there's more; CZ for one, IIRC.
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I'm liking the Kimber Model 8400 Montana in the 300 Winchester Magnum. A bit pricey, but looks like it's good quality.
http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/8400standmag/montana.php
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FN Herstal is owned by the same corporate group that owns Winchester. FN is making a rifle called the Patriot that is based on a forged milled Pre 64 Model 70 receiver. It's a premium piece.
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I was born with cataracts in both eyes and have a severe problem with glare, after the surgery, effecting my hunt. What would be the best scope to help me reduce the effects of glare?