Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on May 06, 2007, 01:17:18 AM
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i need to ask you for your help.
i have a cousin that i love very much who i am sad to say has become a longterm meth addict.
i need to find a way to help her help herself.
all that i can give to her is my love and my affection and my mind and my faith and my energy and the belief that she deserves to be loved and believed in no matter what.
what i am wondering...do any of you have any thoughts, experiences, ideas resources or directions that might help in helping her to achieve this goal?
can she be saved? have others come back from this hell? is it at least possible?
it's been years since i have seen her, but it is breaking my families heart to know that she is out there dying slowly like this when our memories of her are so filled with her light.
she lives in the dallas area.
anything you can think of will be so very appreciated... i promise that i will try to keep an open mind.
please and thank you.
88
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does she date married men?
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Sorry to hear that dude. My brother has been a meth addict for about a year now. He has pissed away a great job. Been arested more times then I care to count and doesnt seem to care that he is killing himself.
I can't figure it out. We came from a well off family. Our parents always showed us love and support. I can't figure out he is doing the things he is doing. I am not sure if he knows. In the end the only advice I can give you. This being from my own hard earned lessons. Change all of you locks. Lock up everything at your house. Be ready for phone calls at 3am from someone bawling on the other end asking you to get them out of jail.
You have to learn to have a hard heart. To say no when they come buy asking for a few dollars to get some food. This was something my brother did at first. I quickly learned that 10 dollars here and 20 dollars there was going to meth and not food. So when he comes by asking for money for food, I show him to the kitchen. It is tough. But God willing they will figure out what they are doing and stop it. They decide when they want to quit. You can't make her.
Meth is a bad, bad drug. Simple to make, simple to buy, simple to use. Anyone can get on the stuff. My girlfriend is a HS english teacher. They just fired a history teacher for using the stuff. Drugs are not an inner city problem anymore.
If you have any questions bro you are welcome to e-mail me. PM me and I will give you my e-mail and cell number. I can bring you up to speed on the things I have learned this past year.
-Sp0t
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88 - In short, to answe your question whether she can be saved or not? Yes she can. Everyday can be a start to a new life. HOWEVER. That can only happen if she is 100% committed and willing to stop. It doesnt matter if all her family and friends support her and are willing to help. SHE HAS TO BE 100%. Anything less, even 99.9% and I promise you she will slip.
My family is currently going through the same situation, accept the drug being used is heroine.
My cousin, a graduate of St. Joes (philly) with a bachelorette and masters degree in economics, a person you would never expect to become a drug addict, has destroyed his life using heroine.
In the two years he has been using he has stolen nearly 80 thousand dollars from my families business, 10k individual family members, has depleted his entire life savings, maxed out 5 credit cards, totaled his car, been arrested twice, and has nearly lost his entire social circle.
His parents knew this was going on from the start, and tried helping him privately, but it wasn't until my entire family found out, that I really think he has any chance of winning from this disease and addiction.
The approach we are taking is mix of hard/soft love.
My cousin has been asked to leave his home, and is now living with my grandparents, under 24/7 supervision. He no longer has a vehicle, or a cell phone. Furthermore, he is not allowed to leave my grandparents house without being attended by one of my family members. It sucks, we have a 25 year old man, and have to treat him like a 5 year old...But its the only way right now.
Since this has happened, my family has told him that he is not able to physically return to work until he defeats this habit, however, instead of sitting idle at my grandparents 24/7 watching TV, what we do is bring work to him. Whatever can be done outside of our florist, is brought to him so he has something to do. The worst thing that can happen would be for him to sit around with an idle mind while trying to beat this. We have to give him this work, so he feels he has intent and purpose. I can't beging to stress how important that is to make the loved one you are trying to help feel he has something going for him/her while they are quitting.
In addition, we try and give him all the praise we can. On a day to day basis, keep telling him how good he is doing. How his appearance, and personality are improving so much, and how he is returning to himself. We are also always trying to have someone with him when he is not working in the house to just hang out. Watch a movie. Read a book. Talk. Cook. Anything.
He is also seeing a psychiatrist. It's extremely important for the individual to understand why he is doing the drugs. Furthermore (and I cant think of the name off hand), he has been prescribed an anti-opiate drug which he is taking, so even if he does slip, theorotecally (sp), the heroine will have no effect if he takes it...
Listen, my typing and story telling sucks via internet, nor do I feel extremely comfortable writing this all over the itnernet. However, if you'd like, i'd be happy to give you my telephone # so I can give you the full story, and tell you exactly how we are dealing with this. I think it can help
Let me know if you want to do that
cav-
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BBBB is 100% right, and IMO this is the hardest thing for family members to accept when dealing with an individual with a extreme drug problem. YOU CANNOT TRUST THEM during the first stages of quitting. You have to realize that your not dealing with a a person who thinks like you and I. It can be anything from money, to tv's and jewlery. To the individual with the drug problem, these items are nothing more than things he/she can use pawn, trade off, or buy drugs with.
HOWEVER, eventually during the process, small amounts of trust have to be allowed to be gained back in incremental doces, but this doesn't happen until the drug abuser really starts showing signs of improvement.
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If, hopefully, you get her to agree to rehab, check the place out first. A friend a I grew up with, his brother, has a problem. They got him to rehab only to find out he was getting his drugs there.
You're a good man to care and want to help, good luck
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It sucks to say this, but tell your family not to waste their money on re-hab unless like I said earlier, she is 100% committed. If she isnt' personally ready/willing to give up the drugs, no point in your family spending 10's of thousands of dollars so she can double her dealer contacts and partners to use with.
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Originally posted by cav58d
It sucks to say this, but tell your family not to waste their money on re-hab unless like I said earlier, she is 100% committed. If she isnt' personally ready/willing to give up the drugs, no point in your family spending 10's of thousands of dollars so she can double her dealer contacts and partners to use with.
Nail on the head. You can't MAKE an addict quit, they have to seriously want to.
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The trouble with meth is that it has something like a 90% addiction rate. As far as I understand it, very, very few people can successfully give this drug up.
It can be done, but you have your work cut out for you.
Try to remove her from her social setting. Get her away from her suppliers, her drug using friends and everything that makes it easier for her to score.
Of course, she'll have to be willing.... but this will be a good measure.
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88, I've been where you are more than once with family and close friends. I've been aware of many situations like this amongst acquaintances. I can tell you from long experience that the advice the others have given here is spot on.
Except storch, the bastard :rolleyes:
The key thing is that until the addict decides to commit fully, truly wants to quit, they won't. Until then, all you can do for your loved one is be there for her, be a good influence, realizing all along she is likely to steal from you and lie to you about her addiction. You must resist the urge to be an enabler, must be willing to harden your heart and deny her resources that can be converted to cash.
If you can reason with her at all about this, and she offers to commit, the one biggest thing you could do to help is isolate her from her sources and help her find something constructive to do that doesn't expose her to much social contact. She needs positive influences and more importantly a lack of negative ones. In the long run she will probably need formal help, but the kind that's free (12 step programs, PDAP, church resources, etc) is usually just as effective as anything else once the person is ready. Until they are, any of it is a waste.
You should also realize that the odds are against success, you are betting a long shot if you get involved. I tried and failed in the exact situation you are in (cousin I loved and grew up with, who lived far away, and to whom I represented the last family member willing to help because he'd burned all other bridges) but if you love her, you have to try. Just know that in the end, you can do everything right but success depends totally on her. The only good thing I can say is that its better to have tried and failed than to live with the knowledge you didn't try.
I wish I could be more positive, good luck.
PS - storch, WTF were you thinking? She could be fat! :O
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Originally posted by culero
PS - storch, WTF were you thinking? She could be fat! :O
A meth addict?
(g/l with your cousin. this is never easy. sometimes you have to let 'em go to get them back)
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Originally posted by culero
Except storch, the bastard :rolleyes:
PS - storch, WTF were you thinking? She could be fat! :O
I've never met a fat meth addict. the toothless thing can come in handy from time to time.
I have no sympathy for addicts of any kind, well ok I have some for AH addicts but that's it.
an addict has to hit rock bottom and either die or make his/her way back.
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Originally posted by storch
an addict has to hit rock bottom and either die or make his/her way back.
Here is the sad truth to it all.
They will not change unless they hit the absolute bottom.
For some reason showing any sympathy to them translates into approval.
Bronk
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When I quit 16 years ago I was doing 3 grams or more a day. I knew and still know of a whole lot of crank addicts.
The recovery rate is about the same as for heroin and full blown alkies... around 5%. Women are less likely to recover it seemed to me.
They all steal and will make your life miserable. They will rob your home and tell other criminals what you own. You really need to cut them loose and explain why. any sympathy will be seen as a sign of weakness. They will use it to get more crank at your expense.
lazs
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post of picture of her before her meth addiction right next to the mirror in the her bathroom so she can compare everytime she takes a leak .. g/l with your mission, its a tough one
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I hope you can convince her to make the change. As others have said it has to be HER decision, you can't force a junkie to go straight.
It's threads like this where I wonder why the legalize drugs folks aren't chiming in with just leave her alone. If meth were legal do you really think it wouldn't do the same thing to the adicts? :huh
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I lost a brother to a heroin addiction. Not sure which is worse, meth or heroin, but I will say this. The only thing that can be done is to ask her if she truly wants to quit, if she does (and is not playing you to get more) then get her to a decent rehab facility. There is one in Oklahoma (my parents and I were trying to get my brother there) that specialises in heroin and meth addicts. I do know 4 years ago they had a 90% + success rate after 5 years with their patients.
Bottom line though is what Lazs said, she is going to have to hit rock bottom to want to change. Unfortunately, rock bottom can be death like it was for my brother.
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Good luck with that J888 you might try an intervention to shock her into a bottom... other than that, save yourself, protect your property.
Bodhi - i think meth addiction is worse than heroin in terms of how long you can live with it... sometimes heroin junkies can go for years with and sometimes even hold jobs for a good while. i don't think a meth addict can do that, too damaging to the body.
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Originally posted by Maverick
It's threads like this where I wonder why the legalize drugs folks aren't chiming in with just leave her alone. If meth were legal do you really think it wouldn't do the same thing to the adicts? :huh
this is not the thread to be talking about legalizing drugs, JB88 was asking for help.
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If she wants saving, really wants it... you can help her. If she just says she wants saving to placate everyone telling her to stop, you're in for a long bumpy ride down the road of frustration.
If shes willing to give up and not speak / hang out with her pipe sucking cronies, there's hope. If she tries to pull that ole BS "I can hang with them and not use", forget it.
To check her for being under the influence, look at her pupils.. they never lie. Opiates constrict; stimulants / depressants expand. Uniform stores sell "pupilometers" for a few bucks.
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Originally posted by john9001
this is not the thread to be talking about legalizing drugs, JB88 was asking for help.
Believe me, I understood the subject of the thread and seconded the advice already given. He's in a tough place and I am not making light of it one bit, but in the end it's the addicts decision that is paramount. Until the addict has decided to stop being an addict anything you do will not make it better.
I would figure that an addiction thread would be a great place to discuss the other side of the drug question. This is the result isn't it? Legalizing addictive drugs is not going to make the problem with addiction go away. I fugured that the ones who want more and cheaper drugs would have something to say about this. If it's so great why would anyone want to help an addict?
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Originally posted by Maverick
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Legalizing addictive drugs is not going to make the problem with addiction go away.
No, but as the alcohol model has clearly taught us it will make most of the violent crime associated with the black market trade go away, and make it much easier to deal with the addiction problem successfully.
I started to not mention the fact that we could relieve our overburdened prison system enough to simply keep all violent criminals in jail permanently, and let the taxes drug users would pay take care of the bill for the addicts' rehab, but then I decided that wouldn't be overkill after all.
The only people still arguing about this are the ones not realistic enough to see this is all about politics and money, not the evils of drugs.
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Originally posted by culero
No, but as the alcohol model has clearly taught us it will make most of the violent crime associated with the black market trade go away, and make it much easier to deal with the addiction problem successfully.
I started to not mention the fact that we could relieve our overburdened prison system enough to simply keep all violent criminals in jail permanently, and let the taxes drug users would pay take care of the bill for the addicts' rehab, but then I decided that wouldn't be overkill after all.
The only people still arguing about this are the ones not realistic enough to see this is all about politics and money, not the evils of drugs.
I agree that much of the crime associated with illegal drug use today would go away with decriminalization but I won't agree that our legalization of alcohol hasn't and isn't taking a heavy toll today. While I don't want a nanny government we should not go into decriminalization without expecting to pay a price.
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If you cut her out of your life, don't plan on seeing her again. She will die.
She needs help, and you need a long fuse right about now. (Changing the locks is a good idea, though...)
I've had many, many, many friends on everything from coke to meth to heroin. A few are in limbo, a few are in the ground, one made it clean. It is tough, but the guy who made it was the one least likely to.
I'm in Charlotte right now, about to drive 12 hours back. But if you want, PM me and I'll send you my information. I can probably organize a phone call between my friend who made it and anyone you'd like to talk to him, including your cousin.
Also, a friend of mine just graduated (only Bachelors so far) specializing in this sort of thing... I'm sure she would be willing to help as best she can,too.
And... Maverick... You were a cop, yet you still think drugs should be illegal? You're either very sheltered, or very, very cold and ignorant. I can guarantee you've killed your share of people by your arrests and thought process.
I have plenty of ink on my arm from friends lost to drug overdoses, including my brother. I still say drugs should be legal. I can talk.
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88 I feel for ya. Spent the last 12 years of my LE career in narcotics. I can only echo what others have already said.................Is there help out there-------"Yes". But until the individual (also referred to as "Addict") realizes, and accepts, there's a need for help..........the old saying applies, "you can lead the horse to the water, but ya can't make em drink".
Unfortunitly everyone's right, get new locks, and don't be played by the lies. However, IMO, don't give up either. If there's a chance, then it's worth the effort. All you can do is try, and continue leading to the water's edge..............hopefull one day the individual will take a drink :aok
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No, but as the alcohol model has clearly taught us it will make most of the violent crime associated with the black market trade go away, and make it much easier to deal with the addiction problem successfully.
that just isn't true. the the country's experience with alchohol just doesn't translate to drugs like crystal meth, crack and heroin. it is insanity to legalize these substances for non-medical use... unless you want to create a tidal wave of addicts in this country.
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Meth is to legalization what heavy chainguns are to the second amendment..
Good luck JB88. It will be hard, but it's not impossible. It's like pulling someone out from a thousand feet under the sea. You never really know whether it's working till they are back near the surface.
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There's alotta good advice in this thread from Bodhi, Cav, Lasz, Vudak, Culero, etc. You're the one who know's her best, though, and this is the part where it get's tricky. You're gonna have to guage as best you can, what level's of Hard ball, or love and caring, are appropriate. All people are different; You're not completely on your own (You have your family's help in this, I'd imagine) and they are the ones who are gonna be the most help in this. Now, Women are more succeptible to attitudes against them, I.E. If everyone start's to shun her, you are gonna get a stronger reaction either way. Men are, should we say, harder shelled. Such as 3 of my (former) friends. They were outright denying that anything was wrong, even when they started to steal from family members, and were constantly broke. I moved away from the town I grew up in, and haven't seen them since. One, who was I'd played with since I was only 6 or 7, commited suicide several years ago.
I pray that you are able to help her back from the brink, JB.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
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it is insanity to legalize these substances for non-medical use... unless you want to create a tidal wave of addicts in this country.
Its insanity to think that anyone who wants drugs can't already get them, insanity to not realize that like it or not there's a black market that we'll never be able to eliminate, and insanity to ignore the lessons history teaches.
The alcohol model is exactly on point. Alcohol was a much worse problem in this country during our misguided experiment with its prohibition. Decriminalization and regulation have allowed us to exert control that we never had during the prohibition.
Unless you're aware of some secret breakthrough that will allow the "War On Drugs" to finally start making a dent in the drug trade? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by moot
Meth is to legalization what heavy chainguns are to the second amendment..
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Yet we do have a legal alternative in that case (FFL). That allows us the ability to exert some regulation.
See a possible parallel here? Maybe through the same system we use to regulate prescription drugs?
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It's a possible parallel rather than an undeniable parallel because it's not quite the same thing.
How would meth be used in a healthy way, the way an FFL permits? It's the inverse in Meth's case: guns themselves are no danger unless the user has psych issues.
Meth, on the other hand, will corrupt health itself, physicaly and psychologicaly. How do you regulate that? Could meth be made as innocuous as pot?
It's akin to legalizing micro nuclear bombs or 500mph road vehicles. In a theoretical sense it would work, but people take a long time to acclimatize and wizen up to this sort of thing.
I think it would be too likely to have the effect booze had on native americans to be worth the risk.
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Sorry, but I DO NOT see a parallel. A Ma Deuce or a mini gun will NOT take control of your life or your mind like a mood altering chemical substance introduced into your body will.
Meth, heroine, cocaine, and any number of other substances like them alter the state of mind, and create a dependency. There's just no way making those substances legal and regulated will make them safer, or even less damaging for human use.
And comparing those drugs to alcohol is reaching as well. Only in relatively rare cases does consumption of alcohol, even on a fairly regular basis, create an addiction like those drugs do. Where as those drugs almost always create a life threatening addiction in nearly everyone who introduces them into their body. Look into the percentage of people who drink alcohol on at least a semi regular or even daily basis who become true alcoholics, versus the percentage of people who take any of the aforementioned drugs more than a couple of times who become hopelessly addicted to them. Then, look into the effects of alcoholism versus drug addiction on the person afflicted and the persons around them. The difference, from my experience, is dramatic. And legalizing the drugs will not mitigate the effects of the drugs themselves on those who take them.
Finally, as anyone knows, government regulation is a train wreck unto itself. Government regulation of drugs and drug addicts is a train wreck of unimaginable proportions. No good can come of it.
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Its insanity to think that anyone who wants drugs can't already get them, insanity to not realize that like it or not there's a black market that we'll never be able to eliminate, and insanity to ignore the lessons history teaches.
The alcohol model is exactly on point. Alcohol was a much worse problem in this country during our misguided experiment with its prohibition. Decriminalization and regulation have allowed us to exert control that we never had during the prohibition.
Unless you're aware of some secret breakthrough that will allow the "War On Drugs" to finally start making a dent in the drug trade? - culero
your points, one at a time:
"Its insanity to think that anyone who wants drugs can't already get them, insanity to not realize that like it or not there's a black market that we'll never be able to eliminate, and insanity to ignore the lessons history teaches."
These are straw arguments. I don't think that anyone who wants drugs can't get them. I realize that there is a persistant black market. I do not ignore the lessons that history teaches - namely that use of these extremely addictive substances creates addicts at a rate so far beyond that of alcohol use that it should be obvious to you.
"Unless you're aware of some secret breakthrough that will allow the "War On Drugs" to finally start making a dent in the drug trade?"
another straw argument. i never said i support the war on drugs, or said that i believe that it would make a dent in the drug trade. my view on legalization of meth, crack and heroin has nothing to do with "war on drugs."
i'm saying that legalization of these drugs would create an epidemic of addiction that would be extremely damaging and costly to our country. in all the drivel you are spouting, not once do you mention how you would pay for all this. do you like socialism? because that is the kind of society we would become - we would have to, to support your addicts' drug and health needs and the rest of the societal damage done, not to mention lost productivity etc etc etc
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OK, folkses, I think I may have failed to explain myself clearly enough. Take a deep breath and consider this:
I absolutely agree meth is dangerous, and not something I'm happy to see people use as a recreational drug. Cocaine, heroin, and other drugs fall into that same category in my mind. I absolutely agree that free and unrestricted access to these drugs by anyone who wants them is a bad idea.
My personal problem here is that IMO, that's exactly where we are now, and our current strategy for dealing with the problem has little likelihood of doing anything about that.
I would like to see us look to the alcohol model NOT because I claim that alcohol and meth are in any way equivalent in their effect - I don't, for the record - but because we had rampant crime, violence, danger to citizens using bootleg alcohol because no regulation existed as to its purity and content, and roadblocks in the way of citizens with drinking problems getting help with same because they had to admit to criminal behavior as a part of coming forward for help.
Repealing the alcohol prohibition allowed us to stamp out the bootleg trade by bringing the most basic element of our strategy for success as a society into play - the free market. If you allow people a choice between legal and illegal alternatives, they will mostly choose legal sources. I give you the argument that one positive effect of decriminalization would be the virtual elimination of the current black market drug trade, with all its inherent problems. Yes, we'd still have people using drugs, but at least the people selling them their drugs wouldn't use drive-by shootings etc as normal business practice, and would be subject to regulation of the actual content of their products.
Cost in a financial sense is also a factor in my reasoning. Currently, if you hate drugs and do not use them, you still must pay from your own pocket for whatever it is we do to control the drug problem. Here's a clue, folkses - this is a considerable sum we all pay now. Decriminalization would by its nature reverse that absurdity. Producers, distributors, their employees, and drug users would all begin paying taxes (think: black market = no tax revenue at all). We would be able to begin making those people who choose to be involved in the supply/demand cycle PAY FOR what we as a society do to curb the ill effect drugs have on us collectively.
In summary, arguing about this by decrying the evil effect of drugs is actually the "straw man" argument in this case. I stipulate drugs are bad. I propose decriminalization because I see that it would allow us to exert MORE control of drug usage than we currently do. I offer the alcohol model only in that sense, and point to the strides we've made in dealing with alcohol abuse since we repealed the prohibition as an historic example.
My challenge is for those who argue against decriminalization is simple: please explain how YOU propose to put the black market out of business, and relieve the tax burden I (OK, we ;)) have to pay because some idiots choose to abuse drugs. If you have a better idea, I am all ears.
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Mav...I have been an addict and dealer and have been around plenty of addicts.
I would be glad to discuss why I have no problem with legalizing drugs. I have never met an addict that got hooked on legal meth or had a hard time getting enough illegal crank to become an addict.
The only difference would be that crime would go down.. we would still have the same amount of addicts. Maybe even a few less... it would be less glamorous.
I have no problem with lbs of crank being sold to adults for $5 at the local pharmacy... put the dealer out of work.
Those of us who have friends and relatives who are addicts would be better off... they won't be stealing from us and lying and such.. they will probly not even be talking to us since we will have nothing they want (money to buy drugs)
There will be room in our prisons for real criminals or.. for them when they reach the flip out point.
I would allow them all the drugs they wanted in prison too.
lazs
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reefer madness :O
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In summary, arguing about this by decrying the evil effect of drugs is actually the "straw man" argument in this case. I stipulate drugs are bad. I propose decriminalization because I see that it would allow us to exert MORE control of drug usage than we currently do. I offer the alcohol model only in that sense, and point to the strides we've made in dealing with alcohol abuse since we repealed the prohibition as an historic example.
My challenge is for those who argue against decriminalization is simple: please explain how YOU propose to put the black market out of business, and relieve the tax burden I (OK, we ) have to pay because some idiots choose to abuse drugs. If you have a better idea, I am all ears. - culero
I state simply that legalizing meth, crack and heroin will make it easier to obtain, and therefore make it easier to try, easier to use, and therefore create more addicts who will subsequently become, as addicts do, unemployable, mentally unstable, phyiscally disabled, socially pathological, unable to support themselves or their children/families, unproductive and ultimately dependant on society to pay for it all. this is not a "straw man" argument. it is my core argument. this is quite different than saying "drugs are bad." The alcohol analogy is still a non sequiter.
My impression is that when you refer to a theoretical America with "decriminalized" crystal meth, crack and heroin, you envision clinics where these substances would be dispensed. Is that correct?
(edited for grammar)
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Originally posted by Gunthr
that just isn't true. the the country's experience with alchohol just doesn't translate to drugs like crystal meth, crack and heroin. it is insanity to legalize these substances for non-medical use... unless you want to create a tidal wave of addicts in this country.
Someone looking for an opiate / stimulant high gets around 20X the amount they need off the street... which obviously accelerates the on set of phycical addiction... from there they run on a treadmill "chasing the dragon". Not to mention the deadly impurities of what a home cooked brews can offer.
It would take a good week or two of solid drinking to reach the same point with a legal opiate beverage that packs the "punch" of, eh 1 250mg vicodin ea.. a 6 pack would get someone about as 'high' as 3 500mg Vicodins... make it cost $10 a 6 pack, after a 100% tax for drug education & other programs, they'd pay for themselves.
If I go home and drink beer & smoke cigarettes, BOTH physically addictive , perhaps with a few corporate America happy pills (physically addictive prescription meds) what business is it of yours?... why would you care if I did the same, but drank a 12 pack of "opiate brew"? or "Coke with Coke"?
I'm just looking for a legal buzz, similar to the strength of alcohol, why do you care?
I'm an adult allowed to abuse myself and its none of the .govs, or anyone else's business unless I go out and "act a fool", in which case all the "public intoxication", DUI ad other laws still apply.
I too have spent many months working a Federally funded multi agency narco task force which included 2 agents from the Famous But Incompetent (FBI)... lots and lots of people went to prison, we recovered 1/2 dozen cars via asset seizure, served several no knock warrants, a dozens other warrants... and we didn't even put a dent in the areas drug trafficking. When the Fed funds ran out, we packed up and left accomplishing NOTHING.
Prison is criminal college to these guys, they come out wiser, smarter, and better connected... if anything all the arrests we made just created better criminals for some other task force to deal with later. But hey, I made tons of Fed cheese OT almost doubling my yearly salary, it was exciting hunting / chasing the ghetto elk, fun, a great career padding experience... its a good assignment and guys will always line up to do it knowing it wont make a dent.
Then I went to auto theft for a brief stint, and guess what? when we hooked & booked the car thieves... auto thefts went down near 80% while they were in jail. Imagine if every cop working a drug task force were preventing / arresting car theft.. think insurance would go down? or looking for child molesters, rapists, credit card thieves... rather than turning a lot of non violent people into criminals just because they're looking for a buzz.
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Apparently the meth cookers are "flavouring" the meth with Kool Aid etc.
If they legalise it I may give that a try.
NOT!
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BTW you all realise that inside your brain / body are cannaboid receptors specifically for tetrahydrocannbinol (THC)? the best part is that its not physically addictive.
So nature gave us a weed that grows everywhere on the planet, even in the poorest soil, that our brains have special receptors for... you think theres a "hint" there? or is congress is smarter than nature?
Or does congress want you buying other drugs made by their campaign contributors? those who smoke weed know how harmless it is, and know that after a hard day, a few bowls can relieve stress / minor aches pains, helps people sleep, relieves nausea, stimulates appetite... and its 100% natural. But corporate America has engineered chemical pills for stress, aches, pains, sleep.. they'd rather we buy $100 in drugs and take 5 different pills than be able to grow our own relief for pennies on the dollar.
Also look into the how the the old Chief of police from the San Jose police Dept was given a yearly budget for extras of $0.00 by the city manager... he was told to generate his own $$ by asset seizure... giving the police a direct motivation to make $$.
Local govts are taking the tax $$ you gave them to spend on the police services and spending it elsewhere... requiring depts to do more asset seizures. All asset seizure needs is a "preponderance of the evidence", you can be found NOT GUILTY of drug charges, but if the judge decides there's a 51% chance drug $$ was involved, they'll take everything they can; house, car, horse.. and sell it.
Its a freakn scam, but politicians love the free $$ and will lie, like they do on every subject, about the drug war too.
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No one quits unless they are committed to quitting. I quit about the same time lazs did. I wonder if he was my dealer?
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Originally posted by Curval
Apparently the meth cookers are "flavouring" the meth with Kool Aid etc.
If they legalise it I may give that a try.
NOT!
Meth is just a form of a stimulant. Its not about making every illegal drug legal, but offering the stimulant / opiate buzz in much weaker dosages in a legal form. Why would a doper buy $50 meth off a dealer when he could walk into 7-11 and get a stimulant beverage 6 pack for $10?
Just like cigerettes and beer, if you're not interested, you're free to walk by and say "NOT".
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Meth is just a form of a stimulant. Its not about making every illegal drug legal, but offering the stimulant / opiate buzz in much weaker dosages in a legal form. Why would a doper buy $50 meth off a dealer when he could walk into 7-11 and get a stimulant beverage 6 pack for $10?
Just like cigerettes and beer, if you're not interested, you're free to walk by and say "NOT".
The point I was trying to make (badly I guess) is that just because a drug is legal (and may be flavoured with sugary drink mixes) doesn't mean I will suddenly want to try it.
I agree with you 100%.
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First off, again I am NOT making light of JB’s situation by this discussion. I do not want anyone to think I am or that I am not sympathetic to his situation. I have had alcoholics and an addict in my own (not immediate) family.
The reason I brought this up is pretty simple. I wanted a discussion, not name calling or a flame war, about this situation. I think a thread about an addict is really the place to discuss this as addiction is a very real part of using so called recreational drugs, legal or otherwise. I don’t have the answers to all the questions; I just have more questions and am interested to see how those who are in favor of legalization would envision the world and these issues.
I follow the argument about losing the black market. I can even understand that position and why you would think that's a great idea. I don't necessarily believe it will work out, heck there is a black market in LEGAL substances like alcohol and tobacco right now. Making drugs legal but regulating them will not eliminate the black market but it will decrease the size of it pretty dramatically, assuming the legal price of those substances is very low.
As to the idea that you can keep violent criminals in prison permanently, bovine scatology there. That would require a rewrite of the criminal code and would also violate the cruel and unusual prohibition part of the Constitution. Put down the crack pipe on that one please. Violent criminals aren’t being shoved out of prison just because there is no room since all these nice non violent drug users are there. They are out because of the sentencing they were given for the offenses they were convicted. I doubt anyone wants to see someone convicted of assault serving a life sentence.
Would decriminalizing drugs reduce prison populations? Sure I think it would, temporarily but people will still be doing stupid things. Maybe even more of them if a larger part of the population gets to using due to the lack of self control as their inhibitions are relaxed in their brains due to the drugs they are ingesting. Even with alcohol, you have happy calm drunks and you have some very nasty belligerent drunks. Yes you might get the heroin addicts being mellow and not doing much, but what are you going to do with or about the PCP folks?
If you think legalizing drugs will eliminate all crime related to it, again you need to put down the pipe. Look to alcohol and even tobacco. There are still people breaking into stores and even stealing from others to get money to buy a LEGAL substance. Do you think that will not be the case when Joe addict runs out of money (assuming he even has some kind of job to earn any at all) and decides to go right to the source to get their fix?
What do you propose those same folks will do for work? What kind of job is a meth head, crack head, and heroin addict suited for? What are you going to do to employ a PCP user? Obviously if these folks are going to use LEGAL drugs they must do so after they procure money, or do you see the Government as being required to provide them for free? Who will support these folks even if they get free drugs? What are you going to do with those who decide to try meth, cocaine, crack, PCP and heroin (note they are ALL highly addictive) as they become less productive and less able to fend for themselves. Who will provide the shelter, food, clothes and medical assistance needed because of their addiction related problems?
Do I want a person “just out to get a buzz” operating a car? Nope, no more than I want a person with a buzz on from alcohol. We already have a significant problem with alcohol abuse now and driving. What do you propose to do to take care of the transportation needs of an addict? What about their family members should Mom or Dad be the one affected?
Lastly can someone please explain to me exactly what the benefit to society an addict is? If we are going to “open the doors” to these drugs, meth, heroin, cocaine in both forms, pcp what is the benefit to society other than ending the “war on drugs”? What do you think those substances are going to provide for the nation, I really want to know.
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Hey JB 88, I didn't mean to say that things are hopeless (My post was kinda gloomy,) I just meant to say that you and everyone that want's to help your cousin are gonna have to feel out all of the individual little personality changes, and react to them accordingly. One thing that might help you...She might have some underlying reason that she started using, other than just wanting to. Maybe she was suffering from depression, etc.
That's where you might be the biggest help. Some people will see drugs as the cure, rather than a worse problem in itself. Again, GL JB
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If I go home and drink beer & smoke cigarettes, BOTH physically addictive , perhaps with a few corporate America happy pills (physically addictive prescription meds) what business is it of yours?... why would you care if I did the same, but drank a 12 pack of "opiate brew"? or "Coke with Coke"?
I'm just looking for a legal buzz, similar to the strength of alcohol, why do you care? - xMarine
ahhh, now i know where you are coming from ...you are a nouveau libertarian ie, a conservative who wants to smoke pot...
there is a huge gap of logic missing from your reasoning. opiates are highly addictive substances in which the addict quickly acquires a tolerance for the drug which requires higher and higher doses for comparable effects.
Very very soon after your new legislation allowing opiate brews (and, which i think not so coincidentally, would allow you to smoke pot legally ;)) you would have people buying or stealing huge truckloads of the stuff to extract the opiate because they would not be satisfied with your 12 pack, and many many more who just don't want the hassle and continue to use their regular heroin or opiate suppliers. you haven't reduced addiction. you haven't reduced crime. you've just found an easy 7-11 way of introducing everybody to opiates and addiction. all so that you can use pot.
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Amazing how many posters can, on the one hand, state that governments have no right to dictate whether or not you can legally own a deadly weapon and on the other hand happily cede to government the right to tell them what chemicals they can and cannot put into their own body's.
At least lazs is consistant in his approach.
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Addicts can only be helped if they want help. If you try to force help onto them you'll only drive them deeper into their addiction. Rehabs fail to help the addict about 95% of the time according to their own records; unfortunately the best way to get off dope is to be separated from the source & that usually means one of two things: The addict wakes up one morning & decides they've had enough & moves away from the dealers they know & starts fresh OR They go to jail for a long time & dry out that way.
I know a guy who swears by rehab, funny thing though; he's been a crack head for years & the longest he's ever dried out was about 24 months. Yet he keeps saying that rehab is the answer when it hasn't been so far. I keep telling him it's a matter of will power & self control, if you don't have any & you like the dope you're doomed.
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If you legalize drugs then the terrorists win!!!!111ONE
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Originally posted by JB88
i need to ask you for your help.
i have a cousin that i love very much who i am sad to say has become a longterm meth addict.
i need to find a way to help her help herself.
all that i can give to her is my love and my affection and my mind and my faith and my energy and the belief that she deserves to be loved and believed in no matter what.
what i am wondering...do any of you have any thoughts, experiences, ideas resources or directions that might help in helping her to achieve this goal?
can she be saved? have others come back from this hell? is it at least possible?
it's been years since i have seen her, but it is breaking my families heart to know that she is out there dying slowly like this when our memories of her are so filled with her light.
she lives in the dallas area.
anything you can think of will be so very appreciated... i promise that i will try to keep an open mind.
please and thank you.
88
Request for help.
Originally posted by Vudak
If you cut her out of your life, don't plan on seeing her again. She will die.
She needs help, and you need a long fuse right about now. (Changing the locks is a good idea, though...)
I've had many, many, many friends on everything from coke to meth to heroin. A few are in limbo, a few are in the ground, one made it clean. It is tough, but the guy who made it was the one least likely to.
I'm in Charlotte right now, about to drive 12 hours back. But if you want, PM me and I'll send you my information. I can probably organize a phone call between my friend who made it and anyone you'd like to talk to him, including your cousin.
Also, a friend of mine just graduated (only Bachelors so far) specializing in this sort of thing... I'm sure she would be willing to help as best she can,too.
Best option proposed yet. <> Vudak.
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mav.. as was said.. if govrenment charged outrageous amounts of tax and fees on legal drugs then there would still be a drug dealer population.
What jobs could meth heads do? I was very successful in construction.. many jobs a meth head could do till he or she fried.. many are doing em now.
You are correct that they should not be on the road tho.. I agree. PCP? I was a garbage can of drug use and I wouldn't do it... didn't like it. would do heroin before I would do pot etc... drug addicts have preferences like everyone else...
I also drank like any alcoholic the entire time.
since I had access to vast amounts of drugs... I think that I can state from my experiance that...
Even when offered for free... some people will not do drugs or do them addictively. Some people, a small percentage will do them to the point of addiction no matter if they are free or extremely difficult to get. Anyone around me could do as much as they wanted.. of a dozen people.. maybe one did as much as I did... 3 more did the drugs to excess... 3 maybe to what would be considered "recreational" and not problematic and the rest.... the rest ignored em after trying em a few times.
The addicts we have now are the ones we would have if we legalized drugs... the addicts that are yet to come will come if the drugs are legal or not.
lazs
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Wow, xMarine. You and I are miles apart on some issues but together on this one.
I saw the "seize your budget" fiasco happen around here. They tried to spin it in the press as a good thing. All it did was allow the politicians to waste huge piles of $$$ and syphon off what was left for their buddies. Now they look at our S.O. as a profit maker for the county.
I might be poorly mistaken, but I thought their job was enforce the law, not fund the county budget. We are buying old buildings, spending insane amounts of money to refurbish them and then having to abandon the projects alltogether because the buildings are not suitable for their intended purpose. i.e. Bought an old garage from a commissioner's brother in law and converted it into EMS station that ambulances would'nt fit inside... $750,000 oops.
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Originally posted by rpm
I might be poorly mistaken, but I thought their job was enforce the law, not fund the county budget. We are buying old buildings, spending insane amounts of money to refurbish them and then having to abandon the projects alltogether because the buildings are not suitable for their intended purpose. i.e. Bought an old garage from a commissioner's brother in law and converted it into EMS station that ambulances would'nt fit inside... $750,000 oops.
cops are just armed tax collectors, speeding tax, stop sign tax, red light tax, burned out tail light tax, expired tag tax, expired inspection sticker tax, etc.
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Originally posted by Maverick
SNIP
I follow the argument about losing the black market. I can even understand that position and why you would think that's a great idea. I don't necessarily believe it will work out, heck there is a black market in LEGAL substances like alcohol and tobacco right now. Making drugs legal but regulating them will not eliminate the black market but it will decrease the size of it pretty dramatically, assuming the legal price of those substances is very low.
I'd be very happy if we could reduce the size of the drug black market by about the same percentage we reduced the alcohol black market after repealing prohibition.
As to the idea that you can keep violent criminals in prison permanently, bovine scatology there.
snip
Bad choice of words on my part. But, for example, I would like to see someone who's sentenced to 30 years for murder serve the whole 30 years, and certainly emptying half of our current cells would allow that.
snip
If you think legalizing drugs will eliminate all crime related to it, again you need to put down the pipe. Look to alcohol and even tobacco. There are still people breaking into stores and even stealing from others to get money to buy a LEGAL substance. Do you think that will not be the case when Joe addict runs out of money (assuming he even has some kind of job to earn any at all) and decides to go right to the source to get their fix?
I reckon Joe Addict does that now, and will continue to do so about as much as he does now. But I reckon many Joe Dealers will be put out of business, and that means a reduction in the amount of violence he commits in my community as a part of his normal day-to-day business activity.
As to some of your other questions:
Jobs - same jobs addicts have now, except being drug dealers since that industry will be crippled.
Driving - the same addicts that drive now still will. I'm all for DUI being punished severely, including mandatory drug testing after release.
New recruits to drug use due to easier access - I agree this is a danger. However, my instinct is that most folks who want to do this kind of stuff now already do. In any case, I'd like to see taxes paid by suppliers and users pay for the abatement campaigns to dissuade people from becoming users, instead of you and I paying for that.
snip
Lastly can someone please explain to me exactly what the benefit to society an addict is? If we are going to “open the doors” to these drugs, meth, heroin, cocaine in both forms, pcp what is the benefit to society other than ending the “war on drugs”? What do you think those substances are going to provide for the nation, I really want to know.
I agree that addicts are a burden. But I also think that ending the current "War On Drugs" will make it easier to get addicts out into the sunlight and treated for their disease.
Think about that. Currently, if you have an alcohol problem, there's little to stop you from getting help. But if you're an addict, you have to admit to being a criminal before getting help. That's a roadblock I'd like to remove.
Try to understand that my view is the same as yours regarding the worth of these drugs and the problem they represent. I just believe we'd be better able to abate the problems by dealing with them in different ways than we do now.
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Again, even if everything else were to work (huge if, in fact a massive if), my issue with "regulating" these "recreational" drugs is that our government can't properly and efficiently regulate drugs needed to treat disease and injury. We have people who suffer and die because the FDA can't handle what they have now. People with diseases and injuries, as opposed to people who feel they deserve a crutch to deal with reality, are already suffering and paying absurd prices for drugs they need to LIVE, and people think it is possible for the government to regulate "recreational" drugs and not screw that up? I don't think so.
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Laz and Culero,
Thanks much for the discussion. I mean it.
Laz,
I have to bow to your experience here as you have it first hand. My experience was from dealing with those who were usually at the end or bottom of their addiction when they became real problems and could not be ignored. The others who rarely were a problem since the tribe was closed mouth about it, were the herion addicts in the Pascua Yaqui reservation that is actually in the city limits of Tucson. They were about as laid back as you could get but they lived in squalor because they had zero ambition other than putting a needle in their arm.
I’m not sure I would want one working on my car or doing anything particularly technical. I certainly don’t want someone under the influence driving.
Culero,
I'd be very happy if we could reduce the size of the drug black market by about the same percentage we reduced the alcohol black market after repealing prohibition.
I agree that this would be a good thing. I’m not sure it would work as well as all that is concerned but I agree it would be interesting to find out.
Bad choice of words on my part. But, for example, I would like to see someone who's sentenced to 30 years for murder serve the whole 30 years, and certainly emptying half of our current cells would allow that.
I have to disagree with you here again because it’s the sentencing guidelines as well as good time vs nad time that determines the length of stay for an inmate. You’d still require a rewrite of the penal code and have serious constitutional issue, like we already have with mandatory sentencing.
New recruits to drug use due to easier access - I agree this is a danger. However, my instinct is that most folks who want to do this kind of stuff now already do. In any case, I'd like to see taxes paid by suppliers and users pay for the abatement campaigns to dissuade people from becoming users, instead of you and I paying for that.
This hits on one of the things that I feel would be a major problem here. There is a significant amount of binge drinking going on near the University and the same frame of mind that pulls folks into doing that kind of behavior may bring them into using the newly legal substances, creating a new surge in addiction. Like anything else that’s new, there will be quite a few folks who just HAVE to try it. If they had Marine’s concept to get it from they wouldn’t have to go far to get the substances and start using them, just like alcohol. I’d be happy to be wrong there but I don’t believe I am.
I don’t have the answers I just have questions and I’m really not sure I want to see the experiment in action.
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Well, it's not the buffoons at the FDA that would regulate recreational drugs.
It'd be the buffoons at ATF that regulate recreational drugs, just like they do now with alcohol.
What could possibly go wrong?
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, it's not the buffoons at the FDA that would regulate recreational drugs.
It'd be the buffoons at ATF that regulate recreational drugs, just like they do now with alcohol.
What could possibly go wrong?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
EXACTLY!
It's BATFE now though. I guess.
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I would allow them all the drugs they wanted in prison too.
lazs
HELL NO, we barley maintain control of our prisons as is. One of reasons officers don't have as much problems as they could with inmates is because the inmates know if they really got on our nerves we would shake their rooms down at 3 in the morning. There are more drugs in prison then there is on the streets already.
People really don't understand how little control we have over our prisons, the inmates could take them over at any time, if they really wanted to.
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decriminalizing meth, crack and heroin is tantamount to saying that the state will provide free meth, crack, and heroin to citizens. Why?
meth, crack and heroin addicts are unemployable, socially pathological mental and physical wrecks. who would want one working for them even if they were able to get into work?
that begs the question; where then will American addicts get money to buy their government's drugs and pay the taxes that will supposedly be levied on them? Answer: same place they do now.
Unless America gives the stuff away for free to its citizens and relieves addicts of paying taxes, you haven't reduced crime. But what you have done is to create another huge govermental bureaucracy to oversee and manage a collosal distribution system of addictive drugs to our citizens.
Then, when the addicts eventually sicken and are dying, taxpayers will be forced to pick up the tab, which amounts to "universal health care" except its only for addicts. and of course welfare will support the children. You have taken the country a step closer to socialism.
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mt.. Unless you bought crank in quarter pound chunks I was not your dealer.
mav...Don't get me wrong.. I think addicts are pretty much useless and unrecoverable. I hold out little hope for one once they are an addict but...
The way we do it now.. the way we regulate... is making things worse for non addicts... The way we do it now.. you can watch your children like a hawk and they will still become addicts if that is what they want.. they will even be more likely since it is a "forbidden" in my opinion.
Addicts may or may not be able to work. same as now.. it should be up to the employer to hire them or not... they can work a weed whacker or blower.. they are driving now. free up some cops to get em off the road.
I blame no one for what I did but.. yes there is a but... but.. criminalization of drugs made my lifestyle glamorous to many. It also let to a lot of other crime. Fast money and women and parties.. Harleys and hot rods and guns. I would like to see the dealer and the glamor taken out of it..
I would like to see mens hold on women addicts removed. I would like to see families not burglarized by their addict friends and family members... I would like to not see $2000 damage to a car to get $30 for the radio or cell phone for a bag of crank.
The prisons? well.. they might have a different look if drugs were legalized.
In any case... I just don't feel that I can tell people what drugs they can or can't use. I don't think it is possible in any case. We are not winning the war on drugs.. we are not even reducing the number of people affected by drugs... I think the number of people who suffer because of drugs is higher with the war on drugs.
lazs
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how did you quit lazs?
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gunthr... if drugs are legal they need to be dirt cheap. in fact.. I believe that if you declare yourself to be an addict you should get all you want for free.
They are getting sick and wasted now.. that would not change. Some people are drinking themselves to death... that would not change either... some are doing risky recreation.. that will not change... some eat themselves to death.. that would not change.
I am saying that the number of people using drugs would not change. the number of addicts would not change.
If you see someone with heart problems who is 300 lbs.. do you have the right to tell him to put down the big mac or have him fined or jailed? I say no.
sharing needles made drug addicts get all sorts of lingering disease that we are paying for. making needles more available is stopping the practice.
They are among us now. pretending they are not and that we are doing something good by making drugs illegal is BS.
lazs
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How did I quit? I hit a personal bottom that would not sound like much in light of some others that I had hit over the years. Maybe it was cumulative... I had done things that I was sure that I would never do.
I got help in AA. The old AA not the thing we have now. the worthless AA that the government is involved in.
I was doing my bit for AA.. taking money from donations and whatnot when the government made their bid to take over..
This guy came up with a piece of paper that was from the court.. all official and all and told me that he needed me to sign it since he was court ordered to be at the meeting.
I told him that he could just go home and sign it himself if he didn't want to be here. That the main theme was anonymity... how could I sign anything and... how would anyone know who signed it? If asked... by anyone.. I could not say who was or wasn't there.
Now.. you have "secretarys" who get great pleasure from checking every line on the court ordered paper... AA meetings are full of people who want to get their court obligation out of the way. Government has ruined a good program.
I made friends there tho that made great sacrafices of their time to help me.
I also believe that there is a god. I believe that a god can give us strength that we do not posses on our own if we ask... And.. that is as religious as I will get.
lazs
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Lazs, I have to give a lot of credence to your observations on the behavior of addicts.
but the American government isn't going to be dispensing unlimited free meth, crack and heroin to declared addicts age 21 and older any time soon.
think about it - that would send a strong message of social acceptance or tolerance to young people - the very people that we need to protect. i also disagree that addiction would remain the same or decrease when the government starts passing out free dope. no. i'm not a genius. but i know better than that.
the just-turned 21 year olds you now see walking around the malls with black lipstick and boots with 18 inch soles would be lined up for miles at the free drug clinics - hopefully not too far from the rage clubs so they won't have to drive... geez, i had so many issues at that age, i might have gone and declared on a bad day if they had those free meth or crack clinics (just to get me through the day mind you, I'd stop after that one time) it'd be like a White Sale at K-Mart on Mother's Day.
Lazs, i bet if you could have gotten unlilmited free meth at age 21 you may well have become an addict much earlier causing more harm to your body... you might not be alive now. who knows, if it were free and unlimited today, you might go off the wagon tomorrow, knowing you wouldn't have to hustle and risk prison.
As far as I'm concerned, the status of the "drug war" or the intellectual question of whether the black market would be reduced or not is quite irrelevant. I'm not against peripheral harm reduction such as free rubbers and needles, and plenty of education but the free meth, crack and heroin isn't going to happen. Legalize pot tomorrow, for all I care. but not the truely raveging stuff.
(edited to add the following)
i think the concept is one of those that may sound logical and good on paper, but just won't work well in reality. For example, what do we tell productive members of society who may need expensive drugs to prolong their lives but can't afford them, and they point to the meth addicts getting a wonderful free party ride, but they can't get free drugs to save their lives?
what about the lawyers .... i can envision a whole new field of tort law, liability cases, and disparate treatment discrimination cases... the actual impact on society goes on and on - and its all bad
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gunthr.. anyone around me had unlimited free access to drugs. The circle I was in was swimming in em.. I had access to all the PCP and pot for instance that I wanted yet... even me... a garbage can of drug use did not do them.
If you could buy a pound of heroin for $5 would you become an addict?
are you saying that kids don't know which drugs are bad... are addictive?
Kids don't care what you or I approve of... quite the opposite... they rebel against what we say is ok...
No matter what.. there are only going to be so many addicts. Unless we execute em maybe... or some other penalties so harsh we can't ever do it..
They will be with us legal or not and those who are not addictive will not become addicts no matter what (unless a doctor turns them into one).
the other sad fact is that once someone is addicted... the recovery rate will be very small.
lazs
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well, im stuck on the notion that the total number of addicts being a constant with no relation at all to supply... that is a problem.
i can't tell you how many hours i've spent 56-ing my associates in the early morning hours discussing this topic... for years... and its still controversial with strong pros and cons.
but im pretty sure we'l never see it.
If you could buy a pound of heroin for $5 would you become an addict?
first of all, i'd have to decide if I would buy it for $5 because i could make a lot of money. i hate to say it, but at a certain time of my life, if i'd been sure not to get caught, maybe. then maybe i'd of tried it. i honestly don't know.
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no... I meant if anyone including you could buy a pound of heroin for $5 would you become an addict?
I don't know the answers to the problem either... I assume that there would be no more or less addicts because I have never seen the war on drugs keep anyone from getting them if they wanted... in fact... I have seen people try em just to be rebelious and cool.
I have also seen people try em and not like em... like me with PCP and pot. Or... like everyone you know is with booze. Some like it to the point they are hopeless drunks... some like it maybe too much and the vast majority can take it or leave it.
For some.. the first taste of crank is all it takes. For most.. it is all they need to decide it is not for them. Not everyone gets drunk no matter how easy or cheap it is... even when it is free most turn it down.
In the end tho... I simply don't feel I have the right to tell you how to live your life when it doesn't affect me (working with you or driving on the road with you for instance when you are loaded).
I can't tell you what to eat even if it means that you will become a medical problem in the future... I can't tell you to wear a seatbelt or a helmet or what kind of dog you can have.
It is not my right to do so. Truth be known... lots of things you do probly are bad for me in some financial way...or will be. Too bad..
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
Lastly can someone please explain to me exactly what the benefit to society an addict is?
If they are any good at what they do Doctors can be pretty useful at times. More than a small percentage of them are addicts.
As for the original question of what you can do to help, the answer is absolutely nothing until the decision is made by the person in question.
You reach a point to where you either make the decision of "enough is enough" or "screw it".
If you want out...YOU get yourself out. Gut it up, yank on the bootstraps and do it. All the blubbering in the world, rehabs, programs.....and even reality TV shows don`t cut it.
You either make the decision or not.
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all the sympathy in the world won't help you quit... all the tax based programs in the world won't help you quit.
You just have to do it.
I would have suggested AA 15 years ago but now... it is a waste. The government has screwed it up to the point of being useless or worse.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no... I meant if anyone including you could buy a pound of heroin for $5 would you become an addict?
I don't know the answers to the problem either... I assume that there would be no more or less addicts because I have never seen the war on drugs keep anyone from getting them if they wanted... in fact... I have seen people try em just to be rebelious and cool.
lazs
If the govt legalizes this stuff there's gonna be alot of dead teenagers out there.
The way i see it is this. When i was 16-17, and started hanging with the wrong people who were mostly older druggie musicians, I got my hands on all sorts of crap, and I was a rebeleious oddball. I lost a few friends over the years, and actually saved one that started to O.D. right in front of me.
I've been in nyc clubs and seen kids lying dead on the lounge chairs, and watched the bouncers throw them out on the street so they wouldn't get in trouble.
If this stuff becomes mainstream, the same way that your average teenager might try booze, or cigs, he/she might try something super addictive and deadly because now it's legal.
How about this..
What if the govt gave a nationwide warning to drug dealers telling them if they are caught with over a certain amount of junk, that a new law allows the death penalty? yeah i know, won't happen, but i'd like to see it happen. Why legalize potentially deadly chemicals, when you can just remove them completely?
The users can be jailed and treated.
Edit: to add on to the new law above. If you are caught by law enforcement trying to smuggle drugs into this county, the cop automatically has the right to execute you. Quick phone call to a judge, or using a laptop to send picture evidence, and the judge gives the ok.
All drugs confiscated are immediately destroyed on the premises.
I saw judge dread again not to long ago, lol
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Originally posted by Speed55
How about this..
What if the govt gave a nationwide warning to drug dealers telling them if they are caught with over a certain amount of junk, that a new law allows the death penalty? yeah i know, won't happen, but i'd like to see it happen. Why legalize potentially deadly chemicals, when you can just remove them completely?
The users can be jailed and treated.
Edit: to add on to the new law above. If you are caught by law enforcement trying to smuggle drugs into this county, the cop automatically has the right to execute you. Quick phone call to a judge, or using a laptop to send picture evidence, and the judge gives the ok.
All drugs confiscated are immediately destroyed on the premises.
I saw judge dread again not to long ago, lol
You can't remove them completely.
They have the death penalty for smuggling drugs in other countries.
People still smuggle them.
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you can't stop smuggling or dealing, the mark up on illegal drugs is too high, from production to street is something like 1500 or 15,000 percent, i forget. If the profits are high enough people will risk even death.
prohibition made billionaires out of criminals and the "war on drugs" is doing the same.
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i think certain "drugs" should be banned..Crack,cocaine,PCP,cigartettes..etc.
Pot,mushrooms,alcohol..should be legal...Organic substances(i'm not going to bring God into this)
Like guns...some are recreational(pistols,semi-auto rifles) and some need to be restricted(fully automatic weapons).
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Originally posted by SirLoin
i think certain "drugs" should be banned..Crack,cocaine,PCP,cigartettes..etc.
Pot,mushrooms,alcohol..should be legal...Organic substances(i'm not going to bring God into this)
Like guns...some are recreational(pistols,semi-auto rifles) and some need to be restricted(fully automatic weapons).
Tobacco & Coca plants are not organic?
Interesting...
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Some more food for thought...
The Taliban haven't come through with their grand spring offensive. It's not that they've run out of guys or guns, far from it... they're busy with the poppy harvest for the opium trade. It's worth over $70 million to them. That can buy A LOT of IEDs and AKs.
The Canadians tried to burn the fields, and all they got was a few stoned platoons.
The US solution was to send the DEA and experienced helpers from Columbia... who haven't put a dent in poppy growing.
So, instead of just licensing the farmers, and using the poppy harvest to produce cheap morphine for the third world.... we try to burn it all down, with little to no effect, and literally put money in the pockets of the people we're there to fight.
It's ridiculous.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
decriminalizing meth, crack and heroin is tantamount to saying that the state will provide free meth, crack, and heroin to citizens. Why?
meth, crack and heroin addicts are unemployable, socially pathological mental and physical wrecks. who would want one working for them even if they were able to get into work?
that begs the question; where then will American addicts get money to buy their government's drugs and pay the taxes that will supposedly be levied on them? Answer: same place they do now.
Unless America gives the stuff away for free to its citizens and relieves addicts of paying taxes, you haven't reduced crime. But what you have done is to create another huge govermental bureaucracy to oversee and manage a collosal distribution system of addictive drugs to our citizens.
Then, when the addicts eventually sicken and are dying, taxpayers will be forced to pick up the tab, which amounts to "universal health care" except its only for addicts. and of course welfare will support the children. You have taken the country a step closer to socialism.
Methadone programs have shown that opiate addicts get along just fine when they have access to a cheap easy to get alternative. A hardcore heroine addict, who must steal to support the cost of his addiction, can get by on $40 a month taking Methadone, rather than $40 a day.
It's already a proven successful model on how to deal with addicts, their main problem is not being addicted... its the high cost of buying street drugs.
Isn't it in your best interest to allow addicts a cheap alternative rather than having them resort to crime?
The govs responsibility would be that of a regulator, not a supplier.. like with Alcohol & cigarettes they'd ensure quality control / regulate strength... and collect the taxes.
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xMarine - i don't have a problem with the methadone treatment programs for heroin addicts... the treatment goal is to get off heroin, and to hold off withdrawal.
i wouldn't call it a replacement drug though, ie, something that addicts would use interchangably with heroin. Addicts orginally get addicted because they want that high where nothing matters. That ain't methadone. there is no buzz. just a chance be normal.
i don't think there are comparable substances to releive meth or crack addictions... not that i know of anyway. if there are some that would work analagous to methadone for H addicts, i'm pretty sure I'd have no problem with those either.
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Interesting viewpoint speed55...
You claim that if drugs were legal we would have a whole lot of dead teenagers out there and then go on to talk about all the addicted and dead teens we have now with "the war on drugs"
You explain how it is cool to hang out with the rebels and how many addicts you see lying near dead everywhere you go... Doesn't appear to me that making drugs illegal is saving any lives... doesn't appear that it is making bad drugs scarce or less glamorous or crime free.
sirloin... yep... you should always preserve some drugs as being illegal otherwise... what will the drug dealers do? they need some source of employment.
lazs
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My opinion is that we would have alot MORE dead teenagers, just because everything would be legal and the kids that don't do drugs now, just for the reason that it's illegal, might start.
As an example, the average teen might get a beer from one of the older kids in the neighborhood. He might like the beer but probably wont become addicted to it.
On the other hand, if suppose heroin was legal, and the same kid snorted a bag that he got from the same older kid, chances are alot higher than he's gonna become addicted and fiendish.
That's my theory anyway. True or not, who knows.
Looking back now, the people i hung out with were low lives, and by me hanging out with them, i also was a low life, but when your stupid and young and a drug addict like i was, your vision of reality becomes very blurred.
No excuses, i'm just glad i found a new group of friends, or they found me, and that i woke up.
So overall it's my opinion that legalizing would be bad.
I don't make the laws though, so whatever happens, happens.
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No matter what here folks I just want to state this plainly.
To Laz, Speed55 and several others who admitted they had an addiction issue, I want to say that I respect very much that you were able to get straight and beat it in spite of the odds against it. All other areas of disagreement aside. Seriously.
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thank you mav. I am embarassed tho when someone says that.
I was lost... beyond redemtion. I asked for strength that I did not posses and was given it. seagoon will understand that as will some religious and spiritual folks here who have done the same in other situations that seemed hopeless.
I am not religious but believe in a supreme being.. a god.. who will give us strength when we ask.
Some do not believe this and that is their right. They would like to believe that they and... in this case.... I.... am so powerful that I did it all on my own. I don't believe that.
I also had help from unselfish people who are not really what you would consider "sensitive" but none the less gave of their time in a very charitable manner.
lazs
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Hi JB88,
Sorry about jumping in so late, from the subject line I was expecting this to be a fairly typical BB drug legalization discussion.
Originally posted by JB88
i need to ask you for your help.
i have a cousin that i love very much who i am sad to say has become a longterm meth addict.
i need to find a way to help her help herself.
all that i can give to her is my love and my affection and my mind and my faith and my energy and the belief that she deserves to be loved and believed in no matter what.
what i am wondering...do any of you have any thoughts, experiences, ideas resources or directions that might help in helping her to achieve this goal?
can she be saved? have others come back from this hell? is it at least possible?
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You have my sincere sympathies JB, there are few experiences more painful than watching people you love destroy themselves.
I once spoke with a father whose beloved daughter started out well, walked away from the faith in college, started a coke addiction, left school, moved on to heroin, then began an absolute free-fall first into stripping and then quickly into prostitution. He said that by the time she was in her mid-20s she looked like a 40 year old and would lie, cheat, steal or do anything to get money for her next fix. Until she hit rock bottom there were always men around ready and eager to help her sink a little lower. All attempts to help her inevitably ended in miserable failure. He said that it would have been easier to bear had she been killed outright in a car crash, but watching her slow suicide and the progressive ravages of sin and degradation was unbearable. At heart she had no will to change, and so no amount of pleading or counsel from without made any impact on her. Her bondage to her addictions was total.
Of all the counseling situations I've handled, addictions are by far the hardest, the addict is usually caught up in a cycle of deceit both of himself and others, and the substance he is addicted to (drugs, alcohol, porn, etc.) have become his one all-consuming desire. They are like an idol that destroys its worshippers. Usually a person has to be exposed first, and realize that if they continue in the way they are going that only death or prison are at the end of the journey. Put simply there has to be a real change of inclination, there has to be an honest desire to end their bondage to their idol.
You asked "can she be saved?" - is there hope? Yes, there absolutely is. At least two of the men in our church (one of whom is an elder and another who is an administrator) are a testimony to that fact. One of them spent years in alcoholism and addiction to serious drugs and attempted to hide those problems from friends, coworkers, and the church. Eventually, the problems were exposed and we began the hard work of getting out of that particular pit. The other was an ex gang-banger from South LA, and misusing drugs and alcohol had always been part of his life. In both cases, it was their faith in Christ and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that made the critical difference. Quitting by means of one's own unassisted willpower as Laz did is very difficult to say the least, and staying off once you have quit is even more difficult. And believe me, that I know about from having to deal with my own drug and alcohol problems when I finished University.
Generally speaking, Rehab programs will not work unless the person sincerely wants them to. Merely putting someone in rehab against their will or as a "this is your last chance" ultimatum will only result in their taking up drugs again when they get out. Also, the person has to be willing not only to stop using drugs, but change their friends, habits, and lifestyle. Often this will be just as difficult as getting them to quit using drugs. (try persuading someone who always stays up all night "partying" and then sleeps till at least 11:00 AM not to go out with their friends, but to go to bed at a reasonable hour, to wake up early, and then work all day).
As others here have mentioned, whatever you do, do not become her facilitator. Help her, but do not make it easier for her to pursue her addiction, either by giving her money, bailing her out, or giving her the things she should be buying for herself so that she can use her money to buy Meth.
Depending on where she is, I know of one or two faith based programs that have an excellent success rate for getting people out of addictions. But if she doesn't actually want to quit, then most programs aren't going to help her much.
I'd also be willing to send you a terrific book I use in counseling called Addictions: A Banquet in the Grave by Dr. Ed Welch. It's a Christian perspective on addictions and a detailed approach to overcoming them and helping others to do so. Send me your address by PM and I'll give you what resources I can.
Regardless, JB, don't grow weary in well-doing, and if you are a believer, pray for her. When men work, men work, but when men pray, God works.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by JB88
can she be saved? have others come back from this hell? is it at least possible?
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Yes, she can be saved but she has to want it. No matter how hard you and your family tries to save her, if she doesn't want it, she'll never get off the crap.
My brother was addicted to meth for 5+ years, and during that time it cost him his job, wife and lost full custody of his daughter. He finally hit rock bottom when he was arrested one night by the FBI. We found out that after he had lost his job and his wife took their daughter and left him, he started to rob banks and was finally arrested when his meth addicted room mate turned him in for the reward so he himself could buy meth.
Luckily, my brother got one of those "liberal" judges and prosecutors that saw my brother not as a bad person or criminal but as someone that had made some bad choices in life. My brother was sentenced to 6 years in federal prison with the stipulation that he serve one of those years in a live in drug rehab center and after completion of the drug rehab, serve the remainder of his 5 years in a federal prison.
The judge and prosecutor both recommended this rehab in San Diego called The House of Metamorphisis and my family are forever in their debt for getting my brother off meth. They have a hard program and are tough but they have a very good success rate in breaking the addiction cycle.
My brother has been out of prison for 12+ years now and has gotten his life back together. He's now the operations manager for San Diego's largest waste management company, a member of his community's Chamber of Commerce, has a new wife that just gave birth to his first boy and he regained full custody of his 16 year old daughter.
I don't think he would have ever been able to kick the habit if he hadn't hit rock bottom like he did, got lucky and got a judge and a prosecutor that actually wanted to help and a fantastic rehab like The House of Metamorphisis along with the love and support of my family that stood behind my brother all the way.
It's going to be really tough for you and your family JB88 but if she succeeds and kicks the habit, the pay off is so worth it.
ack-ack
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seagoon... I did not say nor do I believe that I quit on my own on my sheer willpower.. please read my post before yours.
My daughter got caught up in it. I have tried everything. I have spent a great deal of money on rehab and have taken her in several times with results that started out good and deteriorated quickly. I am helping my ex raise my grand daughter from her. she has had an abortion or two since and now has another kid that I have not seen and do not wish to.
I have cut myself off from her as it was doing no one any good and I refuse to participate in the missery any longer.
I have heard that at present she is raising the boy a little better and maybe off the drugs. I don't know. I am sure that I will know tho when she gets it figured out. I have been played too many times.
And that is the crux of it.. I consider myself pretty damn streetwise, especially where drugs and crime are concerned but... when it comes to someone you love..
Well.. it is like zombies... you know they aren't the one you love anymore but you still get close enough to get bit.
lazs
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On of my daughters friends was just as bad... Her parents are mormon and have some money and sent her to jamaica or some such to some compound for a year.
It worked.. she is a great lady and I enjoy seeing her these days.. she is married and has a baby and works and is finishing school.
I am leaning toward thinking that most programs are far too lenient with too much "victim" and "poor sick addict" thinking and allow too much interaction with other other addicts who don't want to quit and/or sympathetic and stupid relatives and others.
lazs
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Hello Laz,
Originally posted by lazs2
seagoon... I did not say nor do I believe that I quit on my own on my sheer willpower.. please read my post before yours.
My bad, I sincerely apologize. I had just read MTs earlier post ("No one quits unless they are committed to quitting. I quit about the same time lazs did. ") and had meant to refer to him but mentioned you instead, possibly because he did. This is probably the result of my prior drug use. On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if part of the reason I'm my losing my short-term memory (aside from lack of sleep) is the N2O, drugs, and alcohol I did in the late 80s and early 90s. They say that like prizefighters its only later on that the effects of consistently beating up your brain cells come home to roost.
- SEAGOON
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Nothing heroic about my situation. I did a lot of drugs in the past, but I don't think I was ever "addicted". Quitting was relatively easy. I did have motivation other than just will power to drive me though. My marriage was going south fast, and I was going to make sure I would get custody of my children. I knew that if I was still doing drugs I would lose to their idiot mother no matter how much of a psycho she was. I quit, and I won full custody. I never regretted that decision ...... well maybe a little bit when the kids were teenagers.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I lost a brother to a heroin addiction. Not sure which is worse, meth or heroin, but I will say this. The only thing that can be done is to ask her if she truly wants to quit, if she does (and is not playing you to get more) then get her to a decent rehab facility. There is one in Oklahoma (my parents and I were trying to get my brother there) that specialises in heroin and meth addicts. I do know 4 years ago they had a 90% + success rate after 5 years with their patients.
Bottom line though is what Lazs said, she is going to have to hit rock bottom to want to change. Unfortunately, rock bottom can be death like it was for my brother.
I'm in the same boat as Bodhi. Had a younger brother that we knew was doing drugs when he was younger, but seemed to have straightened his life out. Had a beautiful young wife, two great sons, and had just been baptized in his local church, a good job working for the county - everything semed to be going great. His wife came home one night and found him OD'd and dead on the bathrrom floor.
What scares the hell out of me now is that I know that I'm an addict - a "legal" one. I've been on 3-4 different prescription narcotic pain killers for a kidney problem for the last 3+ years. There have been a few time when, during the night, I've woken up with the shakes, feeling all "ancy" and jittery, can't sit still, very agitated, etc., because I hadn't taken a pain pill for a couple of hours. I asked my doc about it and he says that was withdrawal symptoms. I asked him if I was addicted, and he said "no, you're physically dependant." I'm not sure what the difference is. I know that if the kidney problem is ever cleared up, I do not look forward to going thru rehab or whatever I have to do. Docotor says it will take 6 months to a year just to work me down off all the pain-killers I'm on. Just the couple of hours that I've experienced here and there are enough to make me understand better what a living hell it would be for those who are going thru this.
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Originally posted by SKJohn
I asked him if I was addicted, and he said "no, you're physically dependant." I'm not sure what the difference is.
He was trying to make you feel better (and cover his own ass). There's mental addiction, and physical addiction. That's what an addiction is; for whatever reason, you're dependent on having that chemical. Different drugs have different types of addiction.. cocaine is largely mental, but some like meth & heroin are physically addictive.
I sincerely hope you recover from your kidney problems... but don't let your doctor BS you. I've seen way more friends and family fall to addiction with prescription medication than I have with illegal drugs.
I've never experienced withdrawl first hand except from nicotine.. which is very minor.. but I've seen friends eat a morphine lollipop for an evening buzz, then shake, run fevers, and puke their guts out the next day... and that was just a 1 evening "treat". My sympathies on what you may go through... but it's worth kicking the habit in the end if your kidney lets you.
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seagoon.. mt was not an addict.. Real addicts are fairly rare..it should have been relatively easy for him to quit with a tiny bit of will power and a good reason.
I am saying that the number of real addicts will not change no matter what... legal or illegal. In fact... some of the legal drug addicts will be smarter and maybe not get hooked.. the pain killer addicts that doctors create... The shame is gone when a doctor gets involved... hey.. it's not my fault.. it's the doctors.
I quit smoking on will power... that was pretty easy. For those who think quitting smoking is hard then I suggest they try to break a heroin or meth addiction... I lay in a pool of sweat for three days once not knowing what day it was or even if it was day or night. I don't recall anything like that when I quit smoking.
It all still calls me but... I enjoy life too much to have it melt away in oblivion. If I had 6 months to live I would certainly not want to spend it loaded.
lazs