Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: toonces3 on May 06, 2007, 12:40:26 PM
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Hey all,
I've been reading quite a bit on WW2 air operations, and the P-38 is featured quite a bit in my current reading. And then, there's this whole "Secret Association of P-38 Pilots" thing. So, last night I decided to give the P-38L a spin.
Before I took it up, I read up on Soda's page about the characteristics of the plane. Some thoughts after a few sorties:
The stability is amazing. I don't think I had to kick my rudders hardly at all, and the plane was incredibly easy to keep in trim.
Horrible, horrible blind spots. I lost at least one kill on a spit because I lost vis on one of the forward canopy frames, and the vis off the wings is ugly.
The plane has awful roll rate, despite what Soda's page says.
The plane turns reasonably well and is more reluctant to stall than some of the planes I've flown like the P-51D. I could be a bit more aggressive than with some other planes.
While I didn't have any speed problems, I found I was alot more aware of my speed, especially in dives. I was probably overly cautious when attacking downhill.
Overall, it seems like an interesting plane to fly, but it feels really heavy and bulky. It seems like it would be a hard plane to be competitive with in the MA.
I'd love to hear some thoughts on those that have this plane wired on how to fly it effectively.
See ya,
Toonces
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"The plane has awful roll rate, despite what Soda's page says."
It only has an awful roll rate if:
1. you are under 250mph, the slower you get the worse you roll. The faster you are the better it rolls, due to the hydraulically boosted ailerons.
2. you have not set up your stick properly. I used to think the p38 rolled like a pig, but once I got Rolex to show me how to setup my stick it rolls very well for such a large fighter.
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i have very limited experience in it but I like that it likes to go up.
I dont like that its a big ole target, the pilot seems to be very exposed as well --
i seemed to get alot of pilot wounds and loose one engine(it is nice to have a second engine=)
it is a plane i would like to be good in but most of the planes i'd like to be good in:lol
^^^rambling thoughts of a sleepy painkiller fogged mind
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The P-38L is one of my favorites. It has the ooomph to carry bombs and rockets then fight well.
However, remember...this is not a turn fighter. If you want to run with the Spits, La7s and Yaks...take em vertical.
Also recall that the P-38 is a big plane, making you a really, really big target.
Im so spoiled by the P-38 that I get completely frustrated by the wobbliness of the Yak's when trying to gun. Especially since the Yak only has 32 cannon round. You want each to count!
I've been playing with my convergence on the guns for a few days. Set to 375 on all, its quite the buzz saw. It just depends on how close you like to get. I rarely fire beyond 400.
Some planes give me consistent damage. With the P-38, its fuel hits near ack and pilot wounds near cons. (In the P-51B, I consistently loose two guns. In the P-47's, engine oil.)
Being tricycle gear is another plus...less hassle landing and taxing when on a VH Base.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Overall, it seems like an interesting plane to fly, but it feels really heavy and bulky. It seems like it would be a hard plane to be competitive with in the MA.
The transition to the 38 can be a little rough... sure was for me and I switched with several years flying 51's and F6F's under my belt. At first it does seem ungainly, huge and bulky. But after a little while it's almost like the plane shrinks around you don't notice the size anymore. As for the blind spots, I still occasionally lose cons in cross bar across the front of the canopy (ironically this happens to me more in the J rather than the G). If you have a historical interest in the plane stick with it. The first couple weeks are rough and it seems like every bullet fired at you hits home but after awhile your brain makes the necessary adjustments. If you see me online give me a shot you're more than welcome to tag along. Just don't expect to make it back to base in one piece. :)
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Nothing more fun then taking a 38G low into a furball and seeing how long you can turn before you burn in it :)
It can hang with just about anything in a turn fight and for us 'spray and pray' types, all that extra ammo helps a lot :aok
As Soulyss said, the transition can be a bit rough, but if you stick with it, you'll find it a really enjoyable ride in the MA.
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I find that due to my years flying A/C with guns in the wings, my accuracy in a 38 really suffers, you just cant roll when you get closs and expect the cannons to hit unexpectdly like in some planes.
A p47 for instance, i might start firing from about 500, and he breaks while im still closing on him, sometimes those four guns on the wing to the inside of his turn hit him even though his plane isnt in the gunsite, only when he is very closs though.
I feel that the 38 is wonderfly accurate, and you just cant shot gun em from a distance looking for a ping like in some planes.....,BUT nothing, and I mean nothing noses over at the top of a loop like a 38 can, .
:aok
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I love the 38 for shooting long range. You can put lead on target with even the 20mm at over 900-1000 distances. I have made a few kills at that range. I use it a lot when I have a P-51 or 190 trying to run away from me.
-Sp0t
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As mentioned, the L rolls faster than many, if not most, IF you are FAST. The faster you go, the faster it rolls. If you want a P-38 to roll, use a LOT of rudder. Rudder is how you make the P-38 roll, regardless of model.
The P-38 is NOT good at intermediate speeds. Either fast or slow, and not in between. Fast it is stable and able to go vertical with the best, slow it is REAL stable, and you can take advantage of the fact that it has neutral torque. At medium speeds good fighters will eat you alive.
The P-38 has a lot of internal fuel, so don't take more than 50% internal unless you want to go a LONG way.
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It is good on gas, I almost always take one drop tank so I can ditch that when its time to fight and still be 50% fueled.
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Originally posted by LePaul
It is good on gas, I almost always take one drop tank so I can ditch that when its time to fight and still be 50% fueled.
50 and 2 DTs is what I generally take off with in the 38G. It fights real well under 50 fuel
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I'm sorry, drop tanks are disabled at this field.
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Like anything else, the more you do it the better you'll get. While a 38 will feel big, slow, and heavy at first, you'll get used to it after a while and it'll feel like any other single-engined bird. Soulyss said it best... the plane seems to shrink around you.
Rudder is a must when you want to roll, especially at low speed.
To help with the blindspot, I moved my view up and back. The forward canopy bars get smaller and you can see over the nose a little better.
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Originally posted by toonces3
And then, there's this whole "Secret Association of P-38 Pilots" thing.
:noid
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:noid
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I picked the P-38J to fly for a month or so. For me, it was a difficult plane to get proficient in for a few reasons. First, the J does seem to handle poorly at high speed, especially with roll. Second, I, too, was not used to a concentrated stream of bullets as opposed to a spread pattern of them. I would miss a lot of shots. Third, I would compress a lot. I'd dive down on someone or something, fixate on my target, disregard the groaning/shaking warning for a second or two too long, and auger.
Compared to most US planes, it climbs great. It also has good lethality and ammo load. I would sometimes not even use the cannon against fighters -- just the MG's -- if I felt I could get in a good burst. That seemed plenty lethal enough to put down a fighter. I'd save the cannon for bombers, for when I had only a snapshot, or for when my MG's ran out (which was infrequent). There are a larger number of planes that can both catch the P-38 and outturn it, which makes it more dangerous to fly than, say, a P-51, which can outrun most things that can outturn it, or a Spit, which can outturn most things that can catch it.
Once I got used to being careful of compressibility and improved my gunnery, I did OK in it and do like the plane. But, I do think it's one of the more difficult planes to get proficient in -- at least that's how it was for me.
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I dont fly the 38 very much, it simply doesnt "fit" how I fly all that weell. I did spend most of the april tour flyint the A-20. I do think there is a lot of similiarity in "style"....
To me the biggest thing about the 38 is attitude. You need to be mentally agressive but fly a bit "passively". What I mean by that is that any wasted E or angles haunts you more...but once you make your move the planes stability zoom and center mounted guns make it super uber. If you can learn to put the plane in the proper positions its tremendous. If you cant fathom the nuts and bolts of what that positioning is then like me your just a flying target. To me the 38 is a plane you need to be way out ahead of...its not a reactive counter puncher....then again I suck in it so it might just be me:)
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I really like the P-38, took a while to get proficent. The L model will carry a good bomb/rocket load and still carry the fight as a fighter. It is a little quirky at high speeds (compressing). :aok :noid
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Plenty of film examples on our squad site of what can be done with a P-38.
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38 has about 35 minutes on full throttle with 100% internal fuel. I never take off with less than 75%, and rarely that low. I almost always take full internal and if I'm flying to a target some way away a DT.
Spitfires, notably short legged, have only 30 minutes or so. C205s, also very short legged, have 30 minutes or so.
38s are short legged, except for the DTs. I say take a DT but don't take 50% unless you're suicidal and don't expect to make it out of your first fight. If you WANT to fight more than 1 fight in a sortie, you need to take enough gas to do it, IMO.
Sure, it flies nicely when it's got half gas -- but so does every other plane in the game. IMO I don't tailor the gas to the Gs I want to pull, I tailor it to how much ammo I have, and the 38 has a crap-load of ammo!
I've landed 8 kill sorties in that thing without hotpadding. Only way to do that is if you have enough gas to stick around to kill the red planes with, IMO.
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or keep the DT's and club a few baby seals ;)
.. and drop them if you get into trouble and really need to fight.. more than 50% gas in a P-38(J/L) aren't good for dogfights.
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One full DT is about 960 lbs. Each 25% of internal fuel is about 600 lbs. Do the math, use what works for you. I prefer to be at less than 16,000 gross lbs for any sustained maneuvering, which makes my standard loadout 50% and 1 DT. That has been enough time for me to rtb up to 18 kills with the L or J model :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
38 has about 35 minutes on full throttle with 100% internal fuel. I never take off with less than 75%, and rarely that low. I almost always take full internal and if I'm flying to a target some way away a DT.
Spitfires, notably short legged, have only 30 minutes or so. C205s, also very short legged, have 30 minutes or so.
38s are short legged, except for the DTs. I say take a DT but don't take 50% unless you're suicidal and don't expect to make it out of your first fight. If you WANT to fight more than 1 fight in a sortie, you need to take enough gas to do it, IMO.
Sure, it flies nicely when it's got half gas -- but so does every other plane in the game. IMO I don't tailor the gas to the Gs I want to pull, I tailor it to how much ammo I have, and the 38 has a crap-load of ammo!
I've landed 8 kill sorties in that thing without hotpadding. Only way to do that is if you have enough gas to stick around to kill the red planes with, IMO.
You must be flying a different 38 than I am then...short legged???
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I consider 30 minutes on internal fuel "short legged".
Mind you, I said it gets its range through DTs. It carries 300 gallons externally, almost doubling its capacity, I think?
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I've found that one disadvantage of the p-38 is that people seem to key in on it BECAUSE they think it's an easy kill.
I've read some theories that people will go after El-Feys and 51s first as they represent uber threats that must be eliminated asap.
On the contrary I've found more often than not that people will go for the supposed easy kill first.
Also doesn't help that the rarity and bulkiness of the 38 makes it impossible to lose yourself in the crowd. I always feel like a magnet for target fixation when in a 38.
I will say that if you can get a guy to overshoot without hitting the massive target the 38 presents, its low speed stability makes killing that sucker a simple affair. Those big flaps are beautiful. Feel like a hawk killing a sparrow in those cases. :aok
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38 is definately a flying target. For a slow 38G flyer that's perfect as the bad guys always come to me :)
Of course my goal is to coat the MA in my 38G parts so that helps too.:aok
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Originally posted by frosty
I've found that one disadvantage of the p-38 is that people seem to key in on it BECAUSE they think it's an easy kill.
I've read some theories that people will go after El-Feys and 51s first as they represent uber threats that must be eliminated asap.
On the contrary I've found more often than not that people will go for the supposed easy kill first.
I have to agree.... some people do go for the high threat targets first. But your average MA flyer who are the rank and file in the arenas will go for what is preceived as the easy mark first every time. How often do you see 5 people attacking 1 low set of bombers while enemy fighters are milling around?
In a lot of eyes the 38 isn't much more adept @ fighting than a bomber, and is seen as an easy target. Add to that the fact that many people use it as a pork and auger ride (38L) and you just re-enforce that preception.
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In my defense, I see the 38 as more of a threat than the average spit or lgay or even p51, so I'll kill it first to get it out of the equation, not because it's an easy mark.
If it is, that's just puddin', but not why I take it on first. Same for Ki84s.
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I tend to go for the biggest threats first. I rarely view a 38 as the biggest threat. Not many (average) pilots in the MA's fly it well but even an average pilot in a Spit or a NIK needs to be considered.
BTW, love the 38G... you can keep the J and the L.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
BTW, love the 38G... you can keep the J and the L.
What can the G do that the J and L cannot?
Further, what can the J do that the L cannot? Only difference I can tell is the L has those dive brakes.
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Originally posted by frosty
What can the G do that the J and L cannot?
Further, what can the J do that the L cannot? Only difference I can tell is the L has those dive brakes.
G is much more the turn fighter. I find I can hang with most anything in a slow turn fight.
L 'feels' the heaviest of the three in AH. J 'feels' like the best compromise between the G and L in that it's a decent turn fighter, but can also play the energy game well like the L. The G isn't the E fighter the others are.
I rarely fly the L, but haven't had a problem where I needed the dive brakes. If you fly the 38 enough you know how to keep it from compressing without the dive brake
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P38s are actually very small targets if you use the right angles... the p38G is a great ride in my opinion ive been hooked on for few months
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Originally posted by JimBeam
P38s are actually very small targets if you use the right angles... the p38G is a great ride in my opinion ive been hooked on for few months
One more added to the list of 38G converts :)
My quest to overthrow AH2 with the 38G continues!
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Fester's new 38J skin has gotten me back into the flying deathtrap.
:)
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I love finding 38s in my Ki84, because it means I'm either going to have a laughably easy kill, or a teeth-clenching fight with an expert who knows how to use it. I LOVE Ki84 vs. P38 matchups.
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Guppy,
The amount of 38 parts laying around the arenas will be even greater as I decided the 38 is my bird of the month. I started the month out thinking I'd do the Seafire. However anytime I strap on a Supermarine, I get an instant brain fart.
I did the F6F last month and got pretty decent in it by the end of the tour. I'm hoping to lear a lot about the 38 this month. It's always been one of those planes I avoided. So if you need spare Lockheed, parts just follow my trail. :aok
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Originally posted by Engine
I love finding 38s in my Ki84, because it means I'm either going to have a laughably easy kill, or a teeth-clenching fight with an expert who knows how to use it. I LOVE Ki84 vs. P38 matchups.
Oh bah humbug!!! The Ki-84 is just a Spitty without the stigma. There's no way you should lose to any 38 at co-alt/co-E unless the opponent is vastly superior. :p
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Now where is my 38H....:noid :noid
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Originally posted by frosty
Oh bah humbug!!! The Ki-84 is just a Spitty without the stigma. There's no way you should lose to any 38 at co-alt/co-E unless the opponent is vastly superior. :p
Not to change the topic from 38s to 84s, but I disagree. 38 vs 84 is a tough fight, as both planes have different strengths and weaknesses. Either one gets behind the other and it's hard to shake.
The Ki84 ain't no spit. Actually takes a bit of effort to fly properly.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not to change the topic from 38s to 84s, but I disagree. 38 vs 84 is a tough fight, as both planes have different strengths and weaknesses. Either one gets behind the other and it's hard to shake.
The Ki84 ain't no spit. Actually takes a bit of effort to fly properly.
Every plane has "different strengths and weaknesses". However, some planes are, overall, clearly superior weapons than others...given equivalent pilot skill, obviously.
Given equal pilot skill/E/awareness, there's just no way a Ki should ever lose to a 38. I grant you that a 38 can be hard to shake once it's on your tale, but I don't see how that could happen in the first place to a Ki (once again, assuming the engagement starts on equal footing), unless the Ki pilot gets suckered by a cloverleaf turn.
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I love tangling with 84s in my 38G. 6-0 so far this tour.
That being said, I can always tell when i run into a guy who knows what he is doing in an 84. Thankfully that's not very often.
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Frosty: I'd say the 84 is superior to the 38L, but it's a more even matchup against the G. Against either model, if you run into a pilot that knows how to use his flaps and when to be aggressive, you've got a great fight.
Edit: Disagree about the 84 = Spit comment. While you CAN fly the 84 like most people fly a Spit, being successful in the 84 requires a skillset that many Spit pilots never find a need to develop.
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Say Dan, where are you flying nowadays? I'd love to have some more matchups if you feel like abusing me. :)
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Heck if I know where I fly. I forget what country most times :) I tend to look low numbers country and fly against the high numbers bunch.
I think we were Rooks last night in Orange. I think I remember that :)
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Hokey dokey, I'll track you down sometime.
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I would like to fly the P-38G more, but I just can't see well out its gunsight. It's too dim -- too much smoked glass in the way. Actually, I think that AH is modelling the installation of the optional "dark glass" for the sight. Explanation is here:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196832
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more than 50% gas in a P-38(J/L) aren't good for dogfights.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
(http://auglaize.oplin.org/youth/Special%20Youth%20Events/Summer%20Reading%20Program/2006%20SRP/2006%20srp%20images/laughing_dog.jpg)
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Originally posted by Engine
I love finding 38s in my Ki84, because it means I'm either going to have a laughably easy kill, or a teeth-clenching fight with an expert who knows how to use it. I LOVE Ki84 vs. P38 matchups.
When I'm flying the J I HATE running into Ki84's. I think unless the PJ has a E advantage to milk the ki-84 holds most the cards, what's more I tend to run into pilots who are probably better than me to begin with when I fight a Ki-84. 38G is another story I've had some knock down drag out fights vs. Ki-84's in the G and always look forward to them.
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The G has no WEP and that bullet-glass is darn tough to see thru.
I like the L a lot and find myself in the J a fair amount too.
Everytime Im in a dang G, I run into Guppy. No fun walking home from a fight :)
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I like all three available 38s in the game. This month I have been flying the L most of all. I actually started out flying the L and it is my favorite still. As for being successful in it..... well I have spread almost as many parts as Dan
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Originally posted by Brooke
I would like to fly the P-38G more, but I just can't see well out its gunsight. It's too dim -- too much smoked glass in the way. Actually, I think that AH is modelling the installation of the optional "dark glass" for the sight. Explanation is here:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196832
Removing the optional glass would certainly help.... What's up with that big rectangular frame-mounted hunk of glass between the sight and the pilot, anyway? I've always found it to be very annoying.
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Armored glass. That's what it is.
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If I see ANY P38 low I think lunch.........If I see any 38 high I get real scurd.
Flown to its strengths its one of the few birds I worry about.
Ryan
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I can't hit dirt with the P-38 for some reason. I've set my conv to 400, and it doesn't matter J or L model , I'm missing easy shots. 400 hundred yards or less, I guess it's an aquired skill. Still I would think ith the nose mounted guns I'd get results similar to flying a 109 or 110.
I even got so desperate I decided screw it I'll HO the guys in the LA's setting up for a HO. That just got my lips ripped off. :(
I'd appreciate any advice I can get from you Big Twin expertan.
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I have the same problem in the P-38 or any plane for that matter. I cannot hit the side of a mountain unless I'm 400 yards or closer and can never get my hit % above the 12-15% mark though usually end up at the end of the tour around 10-11% mark.
ack-ack
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I love how Krusty still thinks he is AH's aircraft expert when he keeps getting proven wrong.
P38L at 50% is good for 20 minutes and a little over 40 minutes for 100%
As for ammo, I only watch my cannon rounds. I start with 150 20mm cannon roundss and often have 5+ kills before I reach the 100 cannon mark.
I like the P38L and think the J is overrated, some say the J turns better but I've not been outmanouvered by a J yet in my L. I prefer the J and L over the G because the J and L fit me better. G turns too well for my taste, I like angles.
There really are 2 kinds of fighters in AH, BnZ crowd and TnB crowd. For each crowd there are certain planes which are generalized for that group. I saw it as a hierarchy, you start off in fm2s, hurricanes and zeros, moved to spits, then to more challenging TnB fighters such as F4U, P40, 109 for some, P51 for some. I saw (my personal opinion) the P38 as the top of the ladder for TnB because it is a big plane that requires much patients to master.
Maybe it is just how long I have been flying the P38, but it doesn't feel any bigger to me than a 109.
As for the P38 attracting enemies, it is true, and I like it. "I would rather be fought over than fight with friendlies for an assist"
I think the P38 has sniper like gunnery in comparison with wing mounted planes. Not long ago a spit16 was following shuffler up in a climb, the spit16 was at the point where it completely lost all momentum and was just about to start falling backwards, I took it's wingroot off 1k out.
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I like the J and the G best, but for some reason I hit better in the G. I guess the armored glass throws off the view just enough that I figure the lead better :)
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Originally posted by TwinBoom
:rofl :rofl :rofl
(http://auglaize.oplin.org/youth/Special%20Youth%20Events/Summer%20Reading%20Program/2006%20SRP/2006%20srp%20images/laughing_dog.jpg)
For obvious reasons less weight = better dogfight performance, so i dont see why this would be funny? :)
You are mistaken if you construct "the 38 sucks @100% gas" from my sentence.
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I would also like to correct Raptor, as I just go into the MA, get 100% gas, spawn on runway, push full throttle and glance at E6B while I'm taking off.
50% will not get you 30 minutes at full throttle. I'm sorry, you're wrong.
If I didn't specify "full throttle" in my previous post -- I think it'd be implied, but just to be really anal (as you must require, otherwise you'd not have posted) for the record I was talking full throttle, non-wep.
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I would like to you to be anal with me also, Krusty.
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:rofl
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great posts guys!
I'm definately going to try to get into the 38 a bit more. I'm not sure if it will be a plane I try to master, but it sounds like to get good in it will require alot more work than say..a spit or something.
Having said that, though, to BnZ in it will take alot of work, and in fact, I'm not sure I'd consider it good for that with the speed limitation.
I spend most of my time in a P-51D and I can pretty much point it at the deck whenever I need to and count on responsiveness up to about 500 mph. It will take some discipline to get used to watching speed in the dive like that in the P-38.
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I miss fighting Engine....always seemed to run into your ki84 before your break. Really the only ki84 pilots that seem to make me work that I have fought against are Gian and Engine. P38 still better plane. :t
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Dangit, y'all are making me wanna fly the 38 more! :t
If I can get on tonight I'll fly a few sorties in the 38.
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P-38G is the best!
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Originally posted by toonces3
I'm definately going to try to get into the 38 a bit more. I'm not sure if it will be a plane I try to master, but it sounds like to get good in it will require alot more work than say..a spit or something.
The 38 is easier than the Spit in one respect: it is MUCH more stable at low speed. The Spit is twitchier than the local crack-addict in a near-stall situation.
Thing is, I'm pretty certain that about 80% of the Spit pilots out there fly with the stall limiter turned on and just crank the stick.
Side note: am I the only one that thinks the stall limiter should be entirely disabled outside the TA/offline?
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Flew the G lastnight............ I Suck!
I always seem to put myself in situations not ideal for the G ride.
My lead and Angles are off. I seem to do better in the J. I love the potential of the 38, but I am so inconsistent in it.:furious
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Originally posted by frosty
Side note: am I the only one that thinks the stall limiter should be entirely disabled outside the TA/offline?
Why? The stall limiter does not give the user an advantage over someone that has it disabled. The one not using it has the edge as they can push their plane and ride the envelope, something those with the stall limiter cannot do. The stall limiter is just a tool to help new players get over the learning curve much quicker.
ack-ack