Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Condor on May 08, 2007, 12:05:33 PM
-
I believe there is a maxim something like “lose sight, lose the fight”. I lose most of the fights I get into because I almost always lose sight of the other guy. I’ve been in the game for 7-8 months. I had some experience with off line combat flight sims like IL-2 and the oldie, Fighters of the Pacific, before starting Aces High. I have a complete CH HOTAS/Pedals set up and use TrackIR so I’m not limited by my gear. I have BFM down fairly well. My ACM is rough but, in my opinion, is not the limiting factor. It’s hard to employ and progress in ACM if you can’t keep track of your opponent.
It’s so bad that my son who just started AH a couple of months ago with almost no previous flight sim experience beats me routinely and is advising me on how to improve. :o Just last night we were fighting in the TA and he told me I got several reversals on him. I didn’t take advantage of them because I didn’t even know they happened….because I lost sight of him.
I need help. I’ve trained with Schatzi, Ren, Ghost (in the Val of course),and Mace. All have been good trainers but we never tackled this problem specifically. Has anyone worked out a systematic approach to developing the skill required to maneuver and keep track of the other guy at the same time? If one of you trainers believes you have an effective approach, please respond and I’ll look you up in the TA.
I have this fear that it may be an innate ability that I just don’t have and can’t learn. I hope I’m wrong because I don’t find Sim Cities nearly as much fun as this.
:eek:
-
Here's a tip...
Fly with F3 mode. That probably only works in TA, but try it. You have to track the enemy when they move past you visually, and as they leave your sight you need to estimate their current path and yours, and keep that in mind.
My main question is: How do you lose sight of them? You have track IR you shouldn't lose them til they pass under your wing, tail, or nose, and then you should know exactly where they are. Or, roughly where they are.
If you're merging and still looking at your gunsight, you're not doing it right. As you merge you need to keep your view on the enemy. Either he's going high, low, or flat, but whatever he does you need to watch him.
Do you have a hat and an extra button on your HOTAS you can spare?
Might be worth it just to map a hat and an "UP" button, so you get the hang of where to look first, THEN go back to Track IR.
Those are just my initial thoughts.
-
I don't have trackIR, so I'm not sure if you could have an issue there with set-up. I know some people have complained about "getting it right". That could be the first place to start.
After that, the whole trick is to be able to do manuvers while looking any place but strait ahead. A great way to practic is to fly off line and do barrel rolls, immelmens, high and low yo-yos, and zoom climbs over and around the circling "4 horsemen". All the while, using your views to keep your eye on one of the planes. Film it, and review the films to see how well you performmed the maneuvers, as well as rewatching to see if you DID keep the "bad guy" in view at all times.
-
Aside from problems with the TrackIR setup and the views setup, I'd like to add one thing: IMO, it's essential not to lose sight of your target, to "be in the cockpit" with your mind. When you fly, everything around you should disappear and you should feel like if you were in the cockpit. If you can think in this way, it should be natural to "turn your head" (i.e. select the right view) in the direction in which the target goes.
If you don't fly "in the cockpit", if you're not there, I think you'll always find difficult to keep track of your target: that's why I think Krusty's advice can't do any good (sorry, K, I don't want to criticize, just stating my opinion).
Of course, "being in the cockpit" is the first step: then you'll have to develop the right feel for the tridimensional space and the movement in that space, but that's something that comes almost always naturally (even though for someone is easier than for others).
Try changing the way your mind see the game, not the technical side of the matter (I never tried TrackIR, but it should come even more naturally to follow your enemy if you can "put yourself in the cockpit")
-
No worries Gian.
I was just thinking if he's not sure where the enemy is going (under nose/tail/wing) that in F3 he'd still be able to see them, and get more of a feel for where they went.
Now that I think about it, I don't think it'd be that helpful.
-
I would recommend that you stop thinking about SA in terms of vision but instead in terms of knowledge. Right now you are feeling lost because you lose vision of the enemy during an engagement. Well, that's really not a problem at all. We all do. I would estimate that, even in an engagement that I win fairly easily, I lose sight of the bogey 2-3 times.
Why is this not a problem? Because tracking a bogey during an engagement is not about seeing them at all times, but knowing where they are and where they will be. The good news for you is that this isnt some innate ability that some have and others don't...you just simply have to start understanding the concept of SA a bit differently. When I lose sight of the bogey, I usually know roughly where they are. If I accurately guess where they will be once I regain sight, I often have a guns solution right there. If not, then I will have to re-manuever for position.
When the bogey is out of sight, how do you determine which would be the best guess as to their position? What I do is that I just assume they will make the best move possible for them (the worst possible for you). If you counter that and then find out they did something completely different, chances are they just did something ill-advised for them. You may be able to utilize that to your own advantage.
The biggest thing is just not to assume that since you lost vision of the enemy, he/she could be "anywhere". You probably already have a better estimate of where they are than you give yourself credit for. Put that into action, and use that knowledge in situations where you cannot actually see the bogey.
-
was gunna reply but trotter nailed my point right on the head. know where they 'should be' and use that as a starting ground for finding them visually.
-
I agree with these guys
Develop a sense of where the other guy is going to be (and how you're going to get there)
Learn how to fly without looking where you're going. If you can keep your eyes on your opponent, it minimizes the amount of guessing you have to do. I spend more time glancing back and forth rather than focusing on any particular view. It's kind of like checking the mirrors in your car when you're driving.
The best part is you develop these skills by spending more time flying.
I'll see you in the TA.
-
Its to bad your not like me... *spidey senses tingle* 0.0 oh noes i got someone on my six.... (wakes up)
Oh yah sorry I was just dreaming so yeah plus if you fly for long enough... you learn what people do after a head on pass is predictable... they usually go into a flat circle turn. What you should do after the headon is climb up high and than turn so you see him circling around to find you but you can already see him below you and dive on in before he can make any counter to your dive. Very effective, you just gota learn to do things differently than other players. When you learn your own move's your good to go my friend. Also if you want to practice killing others while being able to use f3 and fight, join 8 player. You never gota worry about people ganging up on you (well usually) But thats just my 2 cents see you in the skies.
-
Taking what Trotter and Bat said to an extreme I often find myself pulling so much lead on a bogie in a fight that I'm firing bursts and hitting him (and maybe even getting the kill) while he's out of view below the nose of my plane.
Another example of "out of view" is when flying defensively against a higher con diving from your six. The only way to really keep him in view is to climb watching him out your up or up-rear view. This will surely get you killed. To survive, at some point you need to roll off to one side or the other and in ensuring your short-term survival you're going to lose sight. Regaining it quickly is the key to what happens next.
These are just two examples. Experience will teach you where those "missing cons" are and where they're likey to end up.
-
Originally posted by trotter
tracking a bogey during an engagement is not about seeing them at all times, but knowing where they are and where they will be. The good news for you is that this isnt some innate ability that some have and others don't...
I agree with most of this. But, assuming that you might be slow, like me, take the following to heart.
The first, and very most important thing you have to learn in these air combat games, is to be able to fly your airplane while looking backwards (or upwards, or a combination, you get the idea). It took me a very long while to learn this, but it is something that can be practiced offline.
What can't be practiced offline is what Trotter, Batfink and all the others say, and that is predicting where the con is going to be. I think this is a huge skill, the second most important, but I also think that some people DO have a natural sense of it (Batfink is a good example - I think younger people who have grown up with computer games have an advantage), while others have to say to themselves, "Let's see, he was going toward my 4:00 when I pulled up, and I think he was turning to his right, so perhaps he'll be at my 7:00 when I get to the top of this loop, better look there." After awhile it comes naturally, but it can be a very long time before that happens.
In the meantime, do the talking-to-yourself routine. It helps.
- oldman
-
Trotter nailed it. It's not necessarily seeing the enemy at all times, but knowing where to look when you want to put eyeballs on him again. That skill is part intuition and part experience. While I don't use TrackIR, I remember how tough it was for me getting my fingers to go to the proper view when I started playing again. You might find it handy to practice getting to specific views with TrackIR. When you can get the exact view you want (back left, high right, etc) while yanking and banking the aircraft, and don't feel at all disoriented while doing it, you'll be about 75% of the way there.
The rest is quick calculations, but not the pencil and paper kind. When you last saw the bandit, he was traveling in a specific direction, nose high or low, wings banked at a certain angle, possibly rolling. You just sort of project the enemy forward in time to where he should wind up from those factors, and you'll have a pretty good idea of where you need to look to pick him up again. It sounds complicated, but it comes with experience and you don't even think about it much.
Just remember that when you do lose the bandit, don't fly a predictable path when trying to find him again. You'll know exactly where he is after about 10 seconds of that.
-
Originally posted by Condor
I have a complete CH HOTAS/Pedals set up and use TrackIR so I’m not limited by my gear.
I also have TrackIR, but I am not using it at the moment. I learned to fly without it, and it seems I would have to retrain myself and go through those initial 2-3 months of pain before I can use it properly. The other thing I've noticed is that the set-up must be pretty ergonomic for someone to use TrackIR effectively, and at the moment, my setup is definitely not ergonomic.
The main problem I found with TrackIR is that I was always looking at the bandit, and my joystick would just instinctively maneuver so as to keep my lift vector to him... essentially, my ACM went down the toilet and all I was doing was following others around and hoping I would get inside their turn/loop/whatever. However, the most annoying thing is that when I did happen to lose the bandit, it was pretty hard to reacquire him. I found using the AH view system to be superior as the view change is instant, and you can customize each view and put your virtual head in areas of the cockpit which you just cant emulate with trackir (particularly when checking six, unless u fly a bubble canopy plane... i dont). Having the ability to switch my virtual head around the cockpit quickly is key for me to be able to track a bandit effectively, and using one of the hats in my throttle fits the bill fantastically. Although TrackIR has great potential, and I will invest the time to use it properly in the future, I think it definitely requires a greater mastery of what has already been described here: knowing where the bandit will be based on the different circumstances.
My advice to you is to try and fly without TrackIR for a week or so. Take the time to configure each view on your aircraft of choice to what you think gives you the best visibility/angle, and program one of your stick hats to switch views for you (to get up-front, up-right, up-left, etc. I have programmed a button on my stick to Keypad 5, which is the up view, and then combine that with the hat). If you find yourself being able to keep better track of bandits, after time, I think this will enable you to better predict an enemy's movement at which point you could reintroduce TrackIR back into your AH life. Anyway, this is just a suggestion... I am sure some TrackIR users will disagree with me :)
Good luck,
Emu
-
I suggest flying a 109 for a while.
Nothing will force you to 'see without seeing' your enemy better than the canopy of a Messerschmitt :rofl
Seriously, give it a try for a while. This will force you 'know' where your enemy is rather than 'seeing' where he is.
After you go from that to a Seafire, you'll know what I mean.
-
Forget about the canopy! It's the huge nose! The ever-view-blocking-cowling!
Why the P51s and P38s get these deep deep drop-down windows front left and front right, but the 109s don't, when they HAD windows there, is beyond me.
Hell even the 190s forward view is better than the 109, and that's saying something!
-
Originally posted by Emu
Anyway, this is just a suggestion... I am sure some TrackIR users will disagree with me :)
They will ;)
But when it comes to TIR, it's more about personal preference than with any other piece of equipment....
-
I really don't think TIR has anything to do with this. I flew for ten years using the hat viewer and now use TIR. Once you get set up properly for TIR, it's just as easy to track with. The biggest advantage to TIR for me is I don't go to bed with my thumb throbbing from working the hat all night long like I used to.
-
Condor,
I also have the same problem and it gets better with time. I use the TrackIR but also use my hat & mapped "look up" button on my stick to over ride the TrackIR when the need be. Emu talked a little about what I call "auto tracking" ex. climbing to a bandit when I should be gathering speed, and it is easier to get caught up in using the TrackIR. Just had to look at my instruments more often because my senses will lie to me. Good thread guys. Thanks.
-
This thread shows why it would be nice if the Film Viewer would record TIR views just like any else. Just play back Condor's films, klick "use recorded views" and we could easily identify any potential problems, be it with TIR setup or if he's just looking into the wrong direction at the wrong time.
-
It would be nice, Lusche, if the Film viewer recorded A LOT more things than it does now.... :p
-
Film recorder dose record a lot more, just wish we could view a lot more
-
Does it really? If so, it should be patched to show all it can register. Just to name one, I'd like to see movements of the controls and of the control surfaces, even in other planes, so to be aware of what they do and if I made some unwilling input... and I'd like to have head movements from other pilots, to see what they saw during combat. (I'm aware this could be a lot more of data, but maybe this data could be recorded only in a little "bubble" of space around the player's plane, say 3k centering on that plane. It should already work this way, even if I'm not sure about it.)
-
It was a full month after I bought TrackIR that I stopped regretting my purchase. It could very well be that you haven't adjusted to it yet.
Alternately, Krusty could be right. I learned on external views; I flew that way in other simulators for years. After all, reality is somewhere between externals and no externals; in reality, you have many times better vision than you do in simulators. A real pilot has the advantages of perepherial and natural, intuitive head movement (even TrackIR is an acquired skill and not at all intuitive - I won't even talk about number pad keys or joystick hats). Using externals will, as Krusty said, make it easier on you because it allows you to see what direction your aircraft is going while looking at the enemy - something that perepherial would allow you to do in reality. In time you will master it and move on to internals only.
Of course Trotter is also spot-on.
-
Condor, I'll offer one thing that no one else has offered. Wingup.
Now that said, as a FAA Flight Instructor I'd like to ask you a question. If you are not keeping your eyes on the nme. What are you looking at when you lose him? Are you looking inside of the cockpit to look at airspeed or altitude ?
As an exercise , Take off, climb to 700 feet AGL go find a tree or barn and do turns around it, while doing the turns climb to 1500 feet, without looking at your gages, once you think you are at 1500 continue to do the turns for one minute before looking. are you close to 1500ft. now try it again while you decend to 500ft. All without looking at the altitude indicator. After you feel you are at 500ft, turn to a heading of North, fly for one min. then look at the altitude indicator and compass. are you even close to north or 500ft.
in other words, get your head out of the cockpit.
-
Excellent advice Traveler!
We need a VFR hood instead of an IFR hood. :D Rather than blocking out the windscreen, we need a hood that blocks the gauges. ;)
-
Condor,
You may not believe this but how you fly your own plane allows you to dictate what you see and don't see.
The Axiom, "Lose sight, lose the fight" is very true. View may be only one part of the whole fighter pilot experience but they ae very important.
IMHO, the only time you should lose sight of the guy is if you specifically roll belly on as a part of a tactical maneuver or if you're not paying attention to your 6 and some gomer sneaks up behind you from under your belly. Don't get me wrong. It's gonna happen that you're not paying attention. However, if you lose sight on a guy that you are actively engaged with then keep working on it. You will get there. As a part of not losing sight you will see every single mistake the guy makes and most times will be able to capitolize on it. You will also be able to recognize immediately if your fight is going badly and maneuver to exit it for a reset or bug out. By the way, who ever said you have to stay in a fight that happens to be going badly? :)
I spend a huge amount of time with folks in the TA to help them get their views setup. Then I take it a step further by taking them up with me as an observer. This is to take the stick out of their hands and let them just sit back and use their views. You have to learn to walk before you can run. If you've been up with me you will hear me calling the views as we engage folks and make the turns. At first, you may find it very hard to switch views at some of the speeds the views are changing. The more you do it the easier it gets. Note: you need to be able to watch some guy scream by you in a nose on and continuosly watch him as he blows through and turns, loops, keeps on going, whatever. Anyone who has been in training with me always hears me asking questions like; "why are you rolling off the turn, did you stall?" or in the scissors; "roll, roll, come on, roll it! Get your lift vector ahead of my turn, now pull lead in on me!" If you're hearing that you can rest assured I'm watching your every single move and trying to get you to use your views as you make the turns with me. The more you can see what's happening the more you will control the fight.
I'm going to be out this weekend for an anniversary (going over to Vegas) but anytime you want to spend some more time with me, or anyone for that matter, please feel free to email me or just grab me in the TA. Everyone else does and that's why all the Trainers are there. :)
As far as TrackIR. TrackIr's are great for some. I had one and sold it. IMHO I felt I had to move too much for the look around the headrest, rear views but that might be old age setting in. I will probably get another one when technology catches up at a reasonable price. Like everything that makes a good system work it just hasn't arrived yet. Take your computer and this game. Yes, it play's fine with some lower end computers but it gets much enhanced with a fast cpu, fast ram, lotsa ram, a fast video card, a big monitor that has a fast refresh rate. All of these things come together to make a great gaming system. It's the same for TrackIR.
About 8-10 yeas ago Sony and some other Company's came out with video headsets. Wow! Kinda slow but there was actually a couple of 2 inch screens a half inch from your eye. Very cool. However, there was no TrackIr then. Because that technology was petty much ahead of its time it kinda fell by the wayside except for some Gov't contracts and some of those arcade 3D games. The ones on the market begin at $1K or so and go way up from therre. If and when they come out with another "good" video headset so you can use TrackIr with it, then I'll be the first one to buy it all again. Imagine putting on your goggles and having head movement not "locked" into merely staring at a stationary (think about it. you only get so much head movement) monitor in front of you. Move your head 50 degrees right and thats where your views go to. Twist around some more and your view continues to move more. Marry the two and WOW!
So you can lose view and lose advantage or continue to practice and not lose views. It's actually that simple. I have my own old saying...."There is no substitute for stick time. The more you get the more comfortable with the plane you get. There is no substitute for quality stick time. Learn it right the first time and put what you learn to good use".
Lastly, just about every single Axiom you've read about is true and there's quite a few of them. It has been proven through the blood, sweat and tears of past pilots. "Speed is Life". There is a reason they said it. Just what does speed give you? Ask a trainer. They're there to help you.
Hope this helps.
-
Thanks for the responses. I’ve thought a lot about flying without Track IR but like, Homeboy, I don’t think it’s the problem. I’ve tweeked it quite a bit and am using a modification of Mace’s profile. I have experienced the “autotracking” that Emu and Boozebag describe but I think I’ve learned to suppress it. I’ve experimented with the POV hat view system as well as TIR and, with the TIR profile I have now, I don’t think the speed of changing views is that much faster using the POV hat. I don’t experience the degree of disorientation using TIR that some describe. I experience some disorientation using the POV system also. The systems are different but I don’t think one is inherently better across the board. The hat views may be slightly faster but I find them harder to use and much less flexible. I’ve had a lot of people tell me that the POV views are better but I think the performance of some TIR users indicates otherwise (Lusche’s scores convince me that TIR can’t be a liability.:aok )
I think the compulsion to visually check where I’m going may be a big part of my problem. I’ve compared ACM with driving a sports car at high speed on a winding road while looking everywhere but at the road ahead. I agree with Lilprop (who, BTW, is the inexperienced son who consistently beats me after I have taught him all he knows.. and now he’s advising me in the forum – it’s humbling not to be superman in his eyes anymore. :cry)that I need to look around more but I’m not as fixated on the forward view as he thinks. I look around a lot already but when I make a maneuver it’s hard not to look ahead. That’s the habit I need to break. Thanks to Fugitive and Oldman for the suggestions for offline practice. :aok I will definitely follow them. I won’t, however, thank Oldman for pointing out that my not being one of those “younger people” may be an issue. ;) He’s right, but I prefer not to dwell on that.
I’m sure Trotter and others with similar comments have described the essential skill for success in this game. I don’t at all discount what you say but I see it as a chicken and egg sort thing though. It’s hard to get that innate feeling for where the bogey will be without a lot more experience than I’ve had and without having seen, one way or another, where the bogey goes. (I hope that makes sense.) I am learning the skill to some degree but it’s a slow process.
Traveler, thanks for the very practical exercise. I’ll try it. I suspect I will be completely disoriented the first few times. :D I don’t really look at the instruments that much but I am not good at tracking my altitude or headings without checking the instruments. In combat I look at he instruments very little. I have my head “out of the cockpit” a lot but probably looking in the wrong direction.
I’ve been accused of looking for the silver bullet and been reminded that there is none. It frustratingly true but also a good thing because if this were easy I’d probably lose interest. Still there are always better ways to learn things than trial and error and I’m glad we have this forum to help one another. :)
Thanks again for all the good suggestions.
-
to echo some of the things a fewhave said here and putting in my own experience, you will occasionally lose sht of the otherplane for a second or two. The trick is estimatingwhere they're going to be next, base on his maneuver and your so you can use the right view to pick them up again.
The best tool I used to learn how to do this is the friendly lock feature in the training room. I'd put that on my sparing partner and get the nice green tracking arrows out in front of him. The key being that it shows you the arrows even through the graphics of your own plane. So even while looking down at my feet or into the back of my seat i had the tracer there to show me which direction the other guy was going as I went round and round with them.
Eventually I learned patterns based on the move being done. I learned that if someone were diving on me from a particular angle and I did a break turn and barrel roll, that I could usually expect them to pop out in a few pre determined places. So when they pass under my tail I already know which direction to look next to pick them up again. If I don't see them immediatly then I know they did a particular counter andlook in the next spot I expect them to be in.
-
Ren,
Thanks for the response. I just missed it while I was typing. I did train with you a few moths ago and I remember my amazement with how you tracked my every move. Thenks for the offer. You will be hearig from me.