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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: halcyon on May 11, 2007, 07:16:26 PM

Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: halcyon on May 11, 2007, 07:16:26 PM
I was bored out of my mind at work today and started daydreaming about, among other things...AH.
Then I started thinking about odd scenerios that would exist in the modern day.

For example:

What do you think would happen if four people stole working P-51Ds, loaded the .50 cals with live ammo, and started strafing residental areas?

Things to consider here:

- how long would it take whichever military airbase is closest to scramble something? (for the sake of argument, let's say this happened in Miami, FL)
- would a heatseaking missile even work on a P-51D?
- what would be the survival chances of the WWII aircraft if they started engaging military combat aircraft?
- would military aircraft risk shooting down P-51Ds over the same residential areas? How would they defuse the situation?

Yes I know, I'm wierd.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Larry on May 11, 2007, 07:30:32 PM
Radar guided guns and missiles.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Golfer on May 11, 2007, 07:33:09 PM
If they're AH guys there won't be anything to worry about except for filling in 4 smoking holes because they compressed into expensive lawn darts.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Larry on May 11, 2007, 07:37:26 PM
But then again they could always call me and I'd steal a 109 and kill them.:aok
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: halcyon on May 11, 2007, 11:15:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Larry
But then again they could always call me and I'd steal a 109 and kill them.:aok


They have a working one somewhere?
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Serenity on May 11, 2007, 11:31:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by halcyon
They have a working one somewhere?


Several. G-2s and G-10s mostly. Black Six is gone though thanks to some 'hotshot' jet pilot...
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: hubsonfire on May 11, 2007, 11:41:55 PM
I'd say expect heavy losses on the first run, with at least one of the survivors lost to another P51 when the first car starts rolling out of a garage. After the FF losses and augers, the remaining P51s (being optimistic that any are still airborn) are likely to suddenly develop low fuel conditions after the destruction of 2 or more vehicles on the ground, or at the first hint of incoming aircraft- whichever comes first.

In this scenario, which I would consider the most likely given my extensive AH experience, all that air combat matchup stuff becomes moot.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: TinmanX on May 11, 2007, 11:47:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Serenity
Several. G-2s and G-10s mostly. Black Six is gone though thanks to some 'hotshot' jet pilot...


Got a working G10 not 6 minles from me. f course there's a working 51 there too and a 38. Dunno if I could squeeze them out past the Spruce Goose though.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Serenity on May 11, 2007, 11:48:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TinmanX
Got a working G10 not 6 minles from me. f course there's a working 51 there too and a 38. Dunno if I could squeeze them out past the Spruce Goose though.


Have I mentioned I hate you??? :aok

lol. Im jealous!!!
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: DiabloTX on May 12, 2007, 12:02:35 AM
Gray Eagles by Duane Unkefer.  It's a novel about a group of ex-Luftwaffe 109 pilots who put together 8 109's and go tearing up the Arizona desert and airforce base.  A little far-fetched but a nice read, if you can find it.

(http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9c/7d/aac8_1.JPG)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Larry on May 12, 2007, 01:18:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TinmanX
Got a working G10 not 6 minles from me. f course there's a working 51 there too and a 38. Dunno if I could squeeze them out past the Spruce Goose though.


Tin Ill give you $1 if you steal it for me and fly it to me jsut incase soeone starts flying ponys and killing the LTARS on thier way to work.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Saxman on May 12, 2007, 01:49:54 AM
Wait, killing LTARDs on their way to work would be a BAD thing?

That's grounds for a commendation, if not a medal. :D
Title: Re: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Kurt on May 12, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by halcyon


What do you think would happen if four people stole working P-51Ds, loaded the .50 cals with live ammo, and started strafing residental areas?
 


First, you're going to have to show me an airworthy P51 with working guns.  I believe (although someone might prove me wrong) that all Civilian owned warplanes have disabled guns (such as barrels fake or filled up with lead).

I can't think of a vintage bird I have ever seen that had any working weapons at all.  And I'm 99% certain its VERY illegal to have one with functional arms.

Anyhow, that not withstanding, about 3 years ago the Brazillian Airforce showed just how easy it is to shoot down a plane without using a missle when they drilled a Cessna 182 full of 20mm cannon fire from one of their jet fighters.

I have to imagine the P51 would be an easier target since its moving at a more compatible speed.

P51 theives die without any kills against the modern airforce.

Casualties on the ground... unknown.  Too many variables to predict.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Platano on May 12, 2007, 07:13:36 AM
This is interesting...I dont know where to start :confused:
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Fencer51 on May 12, 2007, 08:20:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Gray Eagles by Duane Unkefer.  It's a novel about a group of ex-Luftwaffe 109 pilots who put together 8 109's and go tearing up the Arizona desert and airforce base.  A little far-fetched but a nice read, if you can find it.

(http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9c/7d/aac8_1.JPG)


That is a great book! :aok
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Shifty on May 12, 2007, 09:20:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Gray Eagles by Duane Unkefer.  It's a novel about a group of ex-Luftwaffe 109 pilots who put together 8 109's and go tearing up the Arizona desert and airforce base.  A little far-fetched but a nice read, if you can find it.

(http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9c/7d/aac8_1.JPG)


Good book I read it about 16 years ago. I wish I still had it.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: evenhaim on May 12, 2007, 11:43:39 AM
well since i would b in the pony i would kill the ltards force the f16-15 to overshott and boom the rtb with 3 kills hehe :)

ps my cousins best friend in Los angles ownes a p51d in great working condition, i also believe he owns the old gun barrels from the plane but is barred form putting em in, holes sealed
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Guppy35 on May 12, 2007, 12:03:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Gray Eagles by Duane Unkefer.  It's a novel about a group of ex-Luftwaffe 109 pilots who put together 8 109's and go tearing up the Arizona desert and airforce base.  A little far-fetched but a nice read, if you can find it.

(http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9c/7d/aac8_1.JPG)


First thing that came to mind when I read the first post was this book too :)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: TinmanX on May 12, 2007, 12:19:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Serenity
Have I mentioned I hate you??? :aok

lol. Im jealous!!!


Hate me? But I didn't even mention the Corsair, Warhawk, Spit16, B17, TBM or the C47.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: croduh on May 12, 2007, 12:22:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by evenhaim
well since i would b in the pony i would kill the ltards force the f16-15 to overshott and boom the rtb with 3 kills hehe :)

ps my cousins best friend in Los angles ownes a p51d in great working condition, i also believe he owns the old gun barrels from the plane but is barred form putting em in, holes sealed


He can always remove the seals...

No one has to know;)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Guppy35 on May 12, 2007, 12:45:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by duh
He can always remove the seals...

No one has to know;)


Lots of warbirds out there with replica guns in place of the real ones.  I know that "Lil Margaret" a 51 restored to stock has all the parts working including the gunsite and the wiring to the guns so in theory if they put active 50s in there, the guns would work.

There is nothing out there saying the gun ports have to be sealed up.

A more likely scenario would be someone using some of the warbird jets out there.

Think about a group of F86s or Mig 15s making a run.  There are some Mig 21s owned privately, a couple of F104s, L39s, Hunters, Vampires etc all flying privately.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: croduh on May 12, 2007, 01:12:51 PM
I might buy myself a Mig21, now when Croatia is buying new planes;).Just wouldn't like to see them become piles of old metal.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Vudak on May 12, 2007, 01:50:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shifty
Good book I read it about 16 years ago. I wish I still had it.


They're going for under $2 on Amazon...  Just picked up a copy for some silly summer reading myself :aok
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: REP0MAN on May 12, 2007, 02:47:55 PM
You tards gonna get us all tossed in Guantanamo if you don't shut up.

:noid

:D
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Simaril on May 12, 2007, 03:35:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
They're going for under $2 on Amazon...  Just picked up a copy for some silly summer reading myself :aok



Woot. Thanks for the tip!

They have several copies in the interlibrary loan system our local library belongs to. There's one with my name on it inbound now...
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: frosty on May 12, 2007, 03:59:23 PM
Dude, are you begging for a Secret Service visit? :noid
Title: Re: Re: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Slash27 on May 12, 2007, 04:04:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt
First, you're going to have to show me an airworthy P51 with working guns.  I believe (although someone might prove me wrong) that all Civilian owned warplanes have disabled guns (such as barrels fake or filled up with lead).

I can't think of a vintage bird I have ever seen that had any working weapons at all.  And I'm 99% certain its VERY illegal to have one with functional arms.

 


I'm almost positive it illegal to attack a U.S. Military base too, but this being a "what if" scenario. You can buy semi-auto versions of the M2 .50 cal. You could then convert them to auto install them in your P-51.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Guppy35 on May 12, 2007, 04:08:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
I'm almost positive it illegal to attack a U.S. Military base too, but this being a "what if" scenario. You can buy semi-auto versions of the M2 .50 cal. You could then convert them to auto install them in your P-51.


Seems like there was some talk of the P38F Glacier Girl getting a chance to fire her guns at some point on an Air Force firing range.

There are enough warbird bombers out there with working bomb bays too.

Saw a show the other night where they were using a B25 and a Nordon bombsite to drop some dummy bombs to show how the Nordon worked.  Couple of vet bombardiers still dropping em in the pickle barrel.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Serenity on May 12, 2007, 04:15:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TinmanX
Hate me? But I didn't even mention the Corsair, Warhawk, Spit16, B17, TBM or the C47.


Sweet jesus... other than the Corsair and Spixteen, I LOVE all of those planes!!! WHAH!!!! :cry

Oh, and so as not to thread-jack:

6 P-51s lost. No survivors.

Three F-16s lost. One to gunfire and subsequent head on collision with a P-51. One to a collision with another P-51 after overestimating his opponent's airspeed. One to a crash into the ground after being distracted by the amazing maneuverability of the P-51s.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: DiabloTX on May 12, 2007, 04:24:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shifty
Good book I read it about 16 years ago. I wish I still had it.


I think I still have my ratty old copy around here somewhere.  I bought on my ship back in '88 and have read it 3 times.  I'll send it to you if you want, Shifty.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Drano on May 12, 2007, 09:13:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Gray Eagles by Duane Unkefer.  It's a novel about a group of ex-Luftwaffe 109 pilots who put together 8 109's and go tearing up the Arizona desert and airforce base.  A little far-fetched but a nice read, if you can find it.
 


I have this one somewhere. Don't forget about the P-51 pilots that petitioned to have the .50's re-installed on their birds so they could go hunt the 109's. And that pesky Brit that tagged along with them in his Spit. It was pretty corny but you had to know that goin in.

Drano
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: DiabloTX on May 12, 2007, 11:32:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Drano
I have this one somewhere. Don't forget about the P-51 pilots that petitioned to have the .50's re-installed on their birds so they could go hunt the 109's. And that pesky Brit that tagged along with them in his Spit. It was pretty corny but you had to know that goin in.

Drano


Hmmmm...I smell Iron (Gray) Eagle(s) IV: Chappy's revenge!!!!!
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: ink on May 12, 2007, 11:52:57 PM
you are now on a terrorist watch list:aok
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Shifty on May 13, 2007, 07:46:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
I think I still have my ratty old copy around here somewhere.  I bought on my ship back in '88 and have read it 3 times.  I'll send it to you if you want, Shifty.


 :confused: I hope it doesn't have SEA-MAN on it.:confused:  Sure brother if you find it and want to part with it.:aok

There was another book kind of like that, but was more sci-fi based. Anybody rememeber the book 7th Carrier, and the series of books it spawned?
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: DiabloTX on May 14, 2007, 12:18:13 AM
LOL

If I find it I'll send it your way.

And, no, I am not familiar with that other series.  Do tell.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: eilif on May 14, 2007, 12:42:25 AM
Tinman X wrote:

Quote
Got a working G10 not 6 minles from me. f course there's a working 51 there too and a 38. Dunno if I could squeeze them out past the Spruce Goose though.


Ah, the evergreen aviation museum, been there once, as well as the Tilemook air musium. Good times! Im about 45 minutes away from them as im in corvallis oregon now.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: cpxxx on May 14, 2007, 07:16:54 AM
No need to use F16s, just up an A10 or two. Similar speed range and one big cannon. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rip and it's all over.

(http://www.american.edu/TED/images4/A10.jpg)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: 4510 on May 14, 2007, 08:28:58 AM
This link seems to indicate that Black 6 has been rebuilt and flys again?

http://www.planestv.com/planestv/me109.html
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Engine on May 14, 2007, 09:32:36 AM
What about one of the old wood and canvas planes? They wouldn't show up well on radar, right? Perhaps they don't give out enough heat to risk using a heat-seeker in a residential area?
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Shifty on May 14, 2007, 09:49:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
And, no, I am not familiar with that other series.  Do tell.



Go to this  link. (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/a/peter-albano/seventh-carrier.htm)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: 68ROX on May 14, 2007, 10:20:29 AM
(As MULTIPLE Homeland Security officers decend on Grapevine, TX....)

68ROX did NOT post in this thread.

68ROX did NOT post in this thread.

68ROX did NOT post in this thread.

68ROX did NOT post in this thread.

68ROX is a peaceful, Cod fearing, patriotic, old granddaddy.




68ROX
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: 5PointOh on May 14, 2007, 11:23:37 AM
So thinking about all of this I (instead of working on my power point presentation) thought about the possibilites.  So say 4 AH players did have access to 4 fully loaded and operational 51Ds.  

51-1  Crashes on take off due to no knowledge of rudder.

51-2  Ups and looks for nearest airfield and vulches Cessnas and Pipers for an hour. Crashes on landing due to "floating convoys"

51-3 Ups flies around till he see ANG F-16, tries to HO F-16, and gets shot and bails.  All the time floating to ground whining and squeaking about the Dweeb in the jet who HO'ed him.

51-4 Ups see's ANG F-16 attempts split-s and turns into a lawn dart in Mrs.Krupples lawn.


The End.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Shifty on May 14, 2007, 11:36:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 5PointOh
So thinking about all of this I (instead of working on my power point presentation) thought about the possibilites.  So say 4 AH players did have access to 4 fully loaded and operational 51Ds.  

51-1  Crashes on take off due to no knowledge of rudder.

51-2  Ups and looks for nearest airfield and vulches Cessnas and Pipers for an hour. Crashes on landing due to "floating convoys"

51-3 Ups flies around till he see ANG F-16, tries to HO F-16, and gets shot and bails.  All the time floating to ground whining and squeaking about the Dweeb in the jet who HO'ed him.

51-4 Ups see's ANG F-16 attempts split-s and turns into a lawn dart in Mrs.Krupples lawn.


The End.


51-0 Nothing happens, because most AH players are not real pilots, and they can't get the engines started.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Guppy35 on May 14, 2007, 12:44:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 4510
This link seems to indicate that Black 6 has been rebuilt and flys again?

http://www.planestv.com/planestv/me109.html


Black 6 is grounded and displayed in the RAF Museum

Active Me109 flyers I can think of, with DB engines (Not counting Spanish versions with merlins)

Paul Allen's 109E in Washington state.
(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/Bf%20109E-3%20wnr%201342.jpg)
The Russell Group 109E flying in Canada
(http://fotodj.com/images/willowrun2005/WR133.jpg)
Messerschmidt Foundations 109G6 and 109G14 flying in Germany
(http://www.robert-stetter.de/ILA_2006/pics/DSC_4974_Me-109.jpg)
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Wallpaper/Aircraft/Fighters/Bf109Taxying11oClock.jpg)
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Damionte on May 14, 2007, 02:36:22 PM
The A-10 thing was a good idea.

To try and answer it serously...

Over my own home town Riverside, CA. It would be a while before they were shot down. even though we have an AFB with ANG F-16's they're out on the tarmat in plain view. so if the Warbirds started thier attack by straing the F-16's on the ground they would buy themselves an exatra hour or so.

I imagine it would take tha long for fighters to scarmble from one of the other close by bases and get here. Maybe 2 hours depending on how long it took for the right people to understand that it was for real.

Ove my old neighborhood in Los Angeles. not very long. Most of the population is straped like Iraqi terrorists! They shoot at police helicoptors, they shoot at news helicoptors, heck they even shot at the alien shapcecraft in Independance Day. They'll definately shoot at some warbirds srafing the local kindergarden. Hahah I can definately see my grandparents sitting on thier back porch balcany with thier rifels. Just rocking in thier old chairs and blasting away!

Hahah you can take the southerner out of the south, but you can't talke the south out of the southerner.
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: 4510 on May 14, 2007, 07:09:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Black 6 is grounded and displayed in the RAF Museum



Thanks Dan... any plans to make Black 6 airworthy again?
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: devild0g on May 14, 2007, 08:43:20 PM
There is a private airport like 3 min from my house there was a show there private show, Their were 2 spitfires a zero a 51 and a jug flying togeather in formation with alternating smoke ^_^ I got to ride in a c-47 and a b-29 =p
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: 4510 on May 14, 2007, 11:29:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by devild0g
There is a private airport like 3 min from my house there was a show there private show, Their were 2 spitfires a zero a 51 and a jug flying togeather in formation with alternating smoke ^_^ I got to ride in a c-47 and a b-29 =p


Cool....
I've jumped from a Goonie bird before...
Ridden in a B17....  The 17 ride cost big bucks but what they hey....
:rolleyes:
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: sgt203 on May 14, 2007, 11:57:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by REP0MAN
You tards gonna get us all tossed in Guantanamo if you don't shut up.

:noid

:D


LMAO..........Shhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: evenhaim on May 15, 2007, 12:18:04 AM
sgt u dweeb lol :cool:
Title: Theoreticallly Speaking: Odd Scenerios
Post by: Sled on May 15, 2007, 01:53:48 AM
Right now Osama Binladin is going back to the drawing board for a new idea.







;)