Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 68ZooM on May 14, 2007, 11:27:41 AM
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Well what can i say about this topic other than in Oregon were getting Hmmmm how do i say this SCREWED at the Pumps $3.49 here for Reg, 5 months ago it was $2.59. in one month here it went up 45 cents
The National average for Reg Gas is $3.04 and I've heard from people traving in the Mid-West they found it for $2.69 to $2.89 in Places, My question is when will the Screwing at the pumps stop on the west coast, for gawds sakes my pay doesnt rise fast enough to pay for the cost of rising gas, Everythings going up but cost of living raises dont seem to follow :confused: :confused: :huh
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Originally posted by 68ZooM
My question is when will the Screwing at the pumps stop on the west coast,
When we get the tree huggers to get out of the way so we can build some more gas refineries.
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Here in SF bay area, gas is around mid 3 for regular. Was just in GA and gas was $2.78. Part of the difference here is the tax, and part the special blend for CA gas. Other is probably screw job. It is what it is.
In OR, I would imagine a fair amount is to cover the cost to have someone else pump your gas. Seems like a law that just creates a bunch of low end jobs & inflates the price of gas. Not sure if I have been to any other state where you can't pump your own gas. Seems a bit silly.
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within 24 months after the dems pull us out of Iraq, $3.50 a gallon gas will sound very cheap .. wait and see
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Originally posted by Tango
When we get the tree huggers to get out of the way so we can build some more gas refineries.
+5 on this one. No new refineries and the ones up are at max capacity to try and meet demand raising prices over what the cost of the crude is ramped up to. Right now 2 refineries are at reduced capacity due to fires.
Major target for anyone wanting to paralyze the economy and country. Hit 5 refineries causing major damage and the country is tanked.
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$3.49:cry :cry :cry :cry
Come on over to europe
THATS WHEN you can complain about Gas Prices
Filled up this morning
55 Liters (14.45 gallons) @ €1.45 a liter = €79.75 ($101.06)
= $6.99 a gallon
and holland isn't the most expensive in europe
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I'm paying $5.25 for aviation fuel. $3.49 seems pretty cheap. Though, I just take every opportunity to expense gas at work when they have bull**** errands to run.
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The no new Refineries is misleading. The Refineries in operation are on large tracts of land. There has been an amazing expansion of all the plants in our area, Houston Texas. No new plants are being built, but the old plants are increasing in size by an amazing amount.
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But not enough to keep up.
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Originally posted by Tango
When we get the tree huggers to get out of the way so we can build some more gas refineries.
Tree huggers?
I know, commie liberal page.... (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-court/memos-show-oil-companies-_b_6980.html)
I've heard this more than once. Oil companies buying refineries and closing them. Even for 'environmental' reasons. With the profits they're making, you'd think (hope?) they'd invest. But why should they? You know we're importing not just unrefined oil but gasoline as well.
Summer's comming. Prices will go up due to 'demand' of vacation season. Thin I can't figure out is why gas prices haven't really affected the rest of the economy yet. Prices for other stuff isn't rising as fast yet and it seems to be bussiness as usual for everyone else.
As for oil from Iraq.... Not much, if any comming out of there as it is. I thought that was how -they- were going to pay us back for liberating them.
wrngway
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Origanally posted by Tango
But not enough to keep up.
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That's Oil company Bull****, Tango.
They do not have a capacity problem, in terms of what they're refineries' can put out. Government deregulation has enabled them to say whatever they want, to manipulate the market. I used to hear Higher-ups at Elk Hills laugh about the things the Gov. would tell them had to be done, then they would just blow it off. There are environmental issues, but truthfully, they've never affected production.
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What really gets me is that when Katrina hit, gas prices soared. People almost started riots they were so upset about the increase. That time, there was a valid reason for the increase (damaged oil facilities). Now Prices are skyrocketing even higher for no apparent reason other than "demand" and there is very little in the form of public protest. :huh
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Originally posted by (http://www.indiescene.net/archives/chciken-little.jpg)
within 24 months after the dems pull us out of Iraq, $3.50 a gallon gas will sound very cheap
Of course if we stayed there it would drop to .99 cents a gallon and they would be throwing flowers at Americans.
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
You know we're importing not just unrefined oil but gasoline as well.
The reason we're importing gas is lack of refinerys.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Origanally posted by Tango
But not enough to keep up.
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That's Oil company Bull****, Tango.
They do not have a capacity problem, in terms of what they're refineries' can put out. Government deregulation has enabled them to say whatever they want, to manipulate the market. I used to hear Higher-ups at Elk Hills laugh about the things the Gov. would tell them had to be done, then they would just blow it off. There are environmental issues, but truthfully, they've never affected production.
I live here in Louisiana and know people that work in refineries down south. They will tell you they have been operating as fast as they can to try and keep up.
Now who is BSing who?
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A lot of negatives have transpired in the produciton and distribution infrastructure to cause higher than usual summer peaks. The oil industry runs at capacity and has enough capacity to meet refining needs unless there is a major disruption(s). They are making money now, but that wasn't the case in the 1990s and may not be the case next year or next month should any number of political or economic things happen. FWIW the vast majority of the money comes upstream of refining, with the major oil companies increasingly getting out of any direct involvement with refining and marketing because they can be more trouble than they are worth.
It's also useful to pay attention to the speculators in the trading process that really make a killing and heavily influence the price volitility of a commodity that is traded like any other commidity. Have a dry summer and look at the price of corn -- high and not necessiarily exactly matching the "real" market environment. Panic, greed and herd mentality.
That said, the base cost of gasoline is linked to crude, and that price is linked to world demand. We use more motor fuel than anybody else, and a few better choicies like we made prior to the abnormally low gasoline prices of the 1990s would certainly help. Trade in that full sized truck that gets 10 mpg as a commuter car for an econobox (like we all had in the 1980s, if you remember) and demand will be reduced and prices will follow -- somewhat. Hell, the econoboxes today have more HP than the "sports" models had in the 1980s, beyond the obvious eurpoean sport and luxury automotive brands of the period.
Only somewhat effective though because in this first, demand driven crude shortage the growth in demand is coming from China and India, etc. which are now getting flush on our dollars leading to new car owners. Not a huge percentage, mind you, but with a population of 1.3 billion etc. a percent here or a percent there adds up pretty quickly. So, if you really want to cut gas prices stop buying all that cheap plastic crap from China or using service compaines that outsource to India.
Charon
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Originally posted by Tango
I live here in Louisiana and know people that work in refineries down south. They will tell you they have been operating as fast as they can to try and keep up.
Now who is BSing who?
LOL I know its BS, In Port Arthur/Beaumont Texas the refineries there have storage tanks that are chock full of unrefined crude, gas, etc. How do I know? I worked in the refineries for the last 10 years. They also have the strategic petroleum reserve between Winnie and Port Arthur Texas which is also full of unrefined crude. This is all a ploy by the oil companies to fatten their wallets and we unfortunately are stupid enough to allow it to happen.
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Rocket Science 101 - The more your gas milage goes up, so then will the price of gas at the pump in an inexorable exponential expansion of inflated self worth according to the Big Three and Fuel CEO's.
What ticks me off is that in 1970, Toyota had a car on the market that got 60 miles per gallon at highway speeds! SIXTY MILES PER GALLON!?!?! This was just before the fuel crunch of 71-72ish. Car didn't sell well, because the needle stopped at 85mph or 90mph.
Now here it is 30 plus years later and we're lucky to see 30 to 50 MPG?!?! WTF were these geniuses doing in between the last fuel shortage and now?
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Saw an interview of the CEO of Gulf Oil on CNN, this morning, he said the normal refinery profit on a gallon is 20 cents, right now it is 80 cents.
Now granted it was on CNN so he must be fibbing (thought I'd say it first)
shamus
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One of the most visible records in gasoline markets is the U.S. average retail price for regular gasoline. At $3.054 per gallon on EIA’s latest weekly retail price survey (May 7), this price is just a penny-and-a-half shy of the all-time record (in nominal dollars) of $3.069 per gallon set on September 5, 2005, about a week after Hurricane Katrina ravaged Gulf Coast oil production and refineries. Both of these prices, however, fall short of the price of gasoline in March 1981, however, if adjusted for inflation. Retail prices that month were equivalent to a current price of over $3.22 per gallon after adjusting for inflation (see http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/fsheets/petroleumprices.xls).
This is the third year in a row that the average U.S. retail price for regular gasoline has reached $3 per gallon at least once (besides the record set in 2005, it also reached $3 per gallon or higher during four consecutive weeks in 2006; see http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mg_rt_usw.htm). EIA has reported repeatedly in recent weeks on the causes of the price increase. Demand has been outpacing supply, causing gasoline inventories to drop from well above the average range to well below it (see http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/ weekly_petroleum_status_repor t/current/pdf/figure04.pdf). With gasoline inventories having ended their streak of consecutive declines last week, the question becomes how quickly, and to what degree, will gasoline prices soften.
According to EIA’s Short-Term Energy Outlook, released yesterday, high prices are expected to encourage production of gasoline domestically and continue to attract imports. This, in fact, occurred during the week ending May 4, with gasoline production over 8.9 million barrels per day and total gasoline imports above 1.2 million barrels per day. At the same time, the four-week average for gasoline demand is now just 1.0 percent above year-ago levels, reflecting some slowing of demand growth from the typical trend in recent years. Increasing supply and slowing demand growth is expected to reduce prices slightly over the next several weeks. EIA projects a U.S. average retail price in the $2.90s during June and July, after averaging above $3.00 per gallon in May. This projection assumes no significant unplanned refinery outages or crude oil production losses.
Prices could rise back again above $3 per gallon in August, should demand at the end of summer surge, as it often does. Whether gasoline prices set a new record (in nominal dollars) next week is still in doubt. What is clearer is that gasoline prices are expected to remain at or close to $3 per gallon for much of the summer. Although many oil market analysts have talked about the potential for retail gasoline prices reaching $4 per gallon this summer, EIA does not expect the U.S. average price to get anywhere close to that level as long as the oil infrastructure remains largely unaffected this summer. This year is certainly shaping up to be one in which consumers will likely see high gasoline prices throughout the summer months.
Charon
BTW, Refineries are making 80 cents profit per gallon now because that is the market price for their product, set largely by entire layers of traders acting on the fact that we have very low supplies on hand and some disruptions in production as we start into a peak demand period. Now, it could be a refining conspiracy to shut down key assets to drive up prices, but since those companies are not making any of this money while their refining is down it would seem unlikely.
Charon
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Originally posted by Sting138
LOL I know its BS, In Port Arthur/Beaumont Texas the refineries there have storage tanks that are chock full of unrefined crude, gas, etc. How do I know? I worked in the refineries for the last 10 years. They also have the strategic petroleum reserve between Winnie and Port Arthur Texas which is also full of unrefined crude. This is all a ploy by the oil companies to fatten their wallets and we unfortunately are stupid enough to allow it to happen.
Unrefined means you need a refinery to process it right? Guess that means we need more refineries.
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Ever hear of the term "Aclimitization"? (my spellin is horrido)
This is the third year in a row that the average U.S. retail price for regular gasoline has reached $3 per gallon at least once (besides the record set in 2005, it also reached $3 per gallon or higher during four consecutive weeks in 2006; see
They are aclimating us for the sticker shock in short jolts of increasing frequency.
Even at $5 a gallon we'd be payin less than Europe does... A gallon of gas there would be around $15... for ONE gallon.
count your blessings you guzzlertards
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Originally posted by BigGun
Here in SF bay area, gas is around mid 3 for regular. Was just in GA and gas was $2.78. Part of the difference here is the tax, and part the special blend for CA gas. Other is probably screw job. It is what it is.
In OR, I would imagine a fair amount is to cover the cost to have someone else pump your gas. Seems like a law that just creates a bunch of low end jobs & inflates the price of gas. Not sure if I have been to any other state where you can't pump your own gas. Seems a bit silly.
Wrong. Washington is pump your own and has the same hi prices. Pump your own is a scam by the gas companies. Prices dont go down when you pump your own.
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Originally posted by Tango
Unrefined means you need a refinery to process it right? Guess that means we need more refineries.
Nah.....
If you noticed I said they have storage tanks that are already filled to capacity with gasoline and other storage tanks with unrefined crude just sitting there. Meaning they have no where to put it and no need to increase production. They may increase production as we get into June to compensate for the increase in usage by vacationers. The term shortage is still a ploy to charge more $$ and fill their already fat wallets!
Its marketing BS I tell ya!!!
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Wanna lower the price of gas?
Check out how much each state taxes you. (http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp)
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Originally posted by Silat
Wrong. Washington is pump your own and has the same hi prices. Pump your own is a scam by the gas companies. Prices dont go down when you pump your own.
Yup... I remember when full service gas stations, (that's them ones where they check your oil, pump the gas, wash the windows, etc)... when the prices there was $0.25 a gallon high test.
Now it's $3.24 in Northern VA for low grade, and they don't even come out to take your money! You use the card or go inside the mini-convenience store and pay jackoff prices for crap. Then go and pump your own gas, check the air, fluids, wash windows... (unless you use their lousy high pressure shove the dirt around machine for another $10 bucks) and go blissfully on your way not even thinking about how screwed not only you are, but how many more people could have been employed to "Service" your car.
Bah! All you Gorboyz sicken me to no end.
*not you Silat... just get po'd at the course we allow ourselves to be led around on*
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If you noticed I said they have storage tanks that are already filled to capacity with gasoline and other storage tanks with unrefined crude just sitting there. Meaning they have no where to put it and no need to increase production. They may increase production as we get into June to compensate for the increase in usage by vacationers. The term shortage is still a ploy to charge more $$ and fill their already fat wallets!
According to the Energy Information Administration our gasoline reserves are at near historic lows right now. What factual basis do you have for your position that this is not the case? The EIA is an independent government agency that I have worked with for over 7 years and they are pretty good about this stuff, not to mention the regular oversight by the FTC and congress (with many anti oil politicians just looking for a chance to be hero to the masses) to keep any "conspiracy" far from being so obvious would one exist.
If there are issues beyond normal supply and demand they would likley be "big picture" in nature relative to the FTC allowing too many mergers in the late 1990s. However, for once it's not OPEC doing something artifical to set prices as much as the fact that China and India are getting wealthy and starting to use more cars, trucks, energy and general transportation. And, the fact that 1973 was the RULE for modern life and the 1990s were the EXCEPTION that may or may not come back from time to time.
Charon
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"Near historic lows"... :rofl :rofl :rofl
Now that's a laugh when we have a three year reserve stockpiled. Makes you wonder how man decades we had in storage before, doesn't it? :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Odee
...Even at $5 a gallon we'd be payin less than Europe does... A gallon of gas there would be around $15... for ONE gallon...
Wrong - its high over there, but not that high.
A (US) gallon is currently about $6 - $7 in most EU member states. However the average European vehicle will probably do close to double the MPG of the average US vehicle so the costs probably balance out in the end. The high precentage of trucks and large SUV's on US roads will skew those figures - if you drive a sedan in the US and get somewhere close to 30mpg, you're paying much less than the average European.
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Originally posted by Odee
Rocket Science 101 - The more your gas milage goes up, so then will the price of gas at the pump in an inexorable exponential expansion of inflated self worth according to the Big Three and Fuel CEO's.
What ticks me off is that in 1970, Toyota had a car on the market that got 60 miles per gallon at highway speeds! SIXTY MILES PER GALLON!?!?! This was just before the fuel crunch of 71-72ish. Car didn't sell well, because the needle stopped at 85mph or 90mph.
Now here it is 30 plus years later and we're lucky to see 30 to 50 MPG?!?! WTF were these geniuses doing in between the last fuel shortage and now?
What car is that?
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How does one directly affect the "supply and demand" of any service or good? Reduce consumption. In the case of fuel, reduce the trips you make, kill 2 birds with one stone when running errands, vanpool to work, go "virtual" if you can, etc.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
How does one directly affect the "supply and demand" of any service or good? Reduce consumption. In the case of fuel, reduce the trips you make, kill 2 birds with one stone when running errands, vanpool to work, go "virtual" if you can, etc.
And carpet less of your home…
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Originally posted by eskimo2
And carpet less of your home…
Hardwood floors downstairs. ;)
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Now that's a laugh when we have a three year reserve stockpiled. Makes you wonder how man decades we had in storage before, doesn't it?
The only significat stockpile I am aware of is the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which has about a 57-day supply of crude. There is no gasoline reserve, and in fact the very nature of gasoline makes it difficult to store for any extended period of time because it degrades. That is one of the reasons the discussions over setting up a potential gasoline reserve didn't get traction after Katrina. And the fact that as a global industry, it disturbs the ability of product to shift from market to market through natural market forces when a disruption occurs.
Charon
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
Tree huggers?
I know, commie liberal page.... (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-court/memos-show-oil-companies-_b_6980.html)
I've heard this more than once. Oil companies buying refineries and closing them. Even for 'environmental' reasons. With the profits they're making, you'd think (hope?) they'd invest. But why should they? You know we're importing not just unrefined oil but gasoline as well.
Summer's comming. Prices will go up due to 'demand' of vacation season. Thin I can't figure out is why gas prices haven't really affected the rest of the economy yet. Prices for other stuff isn't rising as fast yet and it seems to be bussiness as usual for everyone else.
As for oil from Iraq.... Not much, if any comming out of there as it is. I thought that was how -they- were going to pay us back for liberating them.
wrngway
It's common liberal-think to believe that higher prices generate better revenue or profit.
Anyway, a refinery burned down in Alabama. Partial cause of this.
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Prices just went up this afternoon to $3.58 for regular for most places in the Chicago area...thats about a dollar more than it was about two months ago.
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Originally posted by MotleyCH
Prices just went up this afternoon to $3.58 for regular for most places in the Chicago area...thats about a dollar more than it was about two months ago.
Move South.
I was just over in Greenville Mississippi and saw a station with $2.77 a gallon. Its $2.89 over here in Louisiana.
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(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/invasion.jpg)
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Originally posted by Tango
When we get the tree huggers to get out of the way so we can build some more gas refineries.
And who is going to build them? If you think oil companies then think again:
Maybe one day you guys will realize the oil company's really are as bad as people say.
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/pr/?postId=5110
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Originally posted by Tango
I live here in Louisiana and know people that work in refineries down south. They will tell you they have been operating as fast as they can to try and keep up.
Now who is BSing who?
Seems you are BSing yourself. When they shut down others I would guess the ones left open would be a bit busy.
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Originally posted by Serenity
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/invasion.jpg)
The irony of that picture is that the same people who said it was a war over oil now make theses pictures. :rofl
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's common liberal-think to believe that higher prices generate better revenue or profit.
Anyway, a refinery burned down in Alabama. Partial cause of this.
:rofl You have to be kidding. Record profits at the same time of record prices, yeah no affect what so ever. :aok
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We saw the same "free market supply and demand" forces at work in California as regards to electric prices a few years back.
Take a facility off line for maintenance at the right time and prices go thru the roof.
The oil refiners have become quasi utilities, more of a monopoly than free market product providers.
shamus
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You have to be kidding. Record profits at the same time of record prices, yeah no affect what so ever.
They are absolutely linked, though the record profits come from crude oil and not gasoline. These prices are also set by international commodities markets and not as a direct price from the oil companies. The CEO of BP doesn't just walk in the meeting room one morning and say: "Let’s set crude at $70 per bbl." Now the oil companies could technically conspire to manipulate the market, but they have endured regular FTC investigations (and will in the future from grandstanding politician and AGs looking to score points with the public) with no fire found behind the smoke.
We could go to price fixing and a regulated market, but the result of that was the highest standard gasoline prices we ever paid as motorists (peaked in 1981 as adjusted for inflation at about $3.20) and the occasional outages and shortages and rationing of the 1970s. Again, the good old days of unlimited cheap gas passed by 1973, with the 1990s being the exception, not the rule. The Rise of the developing world will work to make sure there are fewer exceptions in years to come barring events like a World-wide recession -- but that would hardly be something to cheer about.
Charon
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Take a facility off line for maintenance at the right time and prices go thru the roof.
Maintenance is a fact of life in all industries. Converting from one gasoline blend to another is a fact of life under the Clean Air Act. The conversion happes in the spring and fall. The spring is particularly bad since it leads into the summer driving season which is high demand. Just the way it has worked for decades now. Also, with the numerous independent refiners (as I mentioned, major oil is moving out of refining to a great degree) there is no incentive to be artificially out of production since you lose all those profits generated by the reduced supply.
The California Electric Utility Market and our gasoline infrastructure have few similarities given the vastly different competitive natures of each, with petroleum being far more diverse, independent and competitive.
Charon
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Well I may be somewhat simple minded, but you stated the profit is in crude not gasoline.
Crude is $9.00 lower now that last year at this time, and gasoline is 20 cents above last years price, not making a bunch of sense to me.
shamus
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Originally posted by Odee
Now here it is 30 plus years later and we're lucky to see 30 to 50 MPG?!?! WTF were these geniuses doing in between the last fuel shortage and now?
Honestly, I believe they can produce those vehicles with ease. But what are they doing? They're producing stuff that sells and are high profit. Of course their foresight was very very short. Look at the SUV, and trucks etc. They just kept getting bigger and bigger etc. You're adding more electronics in your cars. My part time job while in college is working at batteriesplus. The size of batteries GM is putting in some of their cars is really becoming amazing. You look at a Honda, which are notoriously easy to turn over (low amperage to start the engine) maybe needing a battery around 400CCA. Of course this is a solder civic but turn around and look at some of the later Oldsmobile Auroras that came out of the late 90's and early 2000's needing up to 850+ CCA. We're putting batteries in the trunks and under the rear passenger seats because the front ends are so jam packed with other electronics and modern equipment that there is no room for a battery. Americans are buying these cars, granted in lesser numbers now than before but when your pockets full, its hard to not get that rear DVD player for your kids in the minivan because they can't sit still the car.
Europe has a much better transportation infrastructure than America, i.e. trains etc. Granted America is not as densely populated and more wideopen. My brother-in-law who is French who's family lives in Marseilles talked to me about cars are a source of freedom in America. One car for a family is pretty special over there. Look at the vehicles in Europe, they're so much smaller than American versions. I look at my future wife's mother. All her kids are out of the house etc. and she does 'haul' some stuff around, but not to a great extent. Does she need to drive a Ford Freestyle with 7 seats? Not really.
I guess in short, American vehicles are no where near as efficient as they should be and honestly think we deserve the higher prices to cure our addiction. It's tough love. And don't get me started on hybrids and ethanol, another bandaid.
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The Oil companies' are following PG&E's example there, Shamus.
Except that, they won't declare bancruptcy as part of a scam to reorganize, and raise they're rates. They don't have to.
They can use any excuse they like to shut down a refinery. Why? They aren't regulated by the PUC to do so. Yes, it affects' the market, But Motor fuels such as gasoline and diesel aren't classified as utilities. Therefore, It's just another open-market commodity. There are refineries' all over the U.S., Not just California, Texas, Louisiana, and New Jersey. The reasons' they are shutting some down and other's stay open? Excess refining capacity for the prices they want to maintain. Buying gas from overseas? Overseas refineries' operate much, much more cheaply. No environmental, safety, and wage standards to uphold. So , They can max out on they're profit, and not worry about lawsuits, on-the-job injuries/deaths, and so on.
No-one in the industry comes out and says anything, being as they are protecting they're cash cow. That's why Oil company's are some of the biggest lobbyists' in congress. That's why you don't see the Gov't stepping in to protect the American consumer. It is, as I previously stated, pure, patent, BS.
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Charon's post has a good argument to merit; However, the reason you don't see The big oil company name's on the refineries' anymore, is because in that instance, they also followed PG&E's lead.
They branched off, "created" several smaller satellite companies which they control, so that they can show different profit/losses to the IRS.
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Originally posted by parker00
Seems you are BSing yourself. When they shut down others I would guess the ones left open would be a bit busy.
I beleive the people that work at those refineries have a much better understanding of it than someone from Kansas would.
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They branched off, "created" several smaller satellite companies which they control, so that they can show different profit/losses to the IRS.
Actually, there was a move to exit refining in the 1990s due to very poor returns in the 5 percent range combined with the headache of running these operations. Even with improved margins in the past 6 years there has been no move to reacquire. The mergers of the late 1990s also carried requirements to divest refining assets relative to various market positioning and competitive factors.
The "smaller" satellite companes were, in most cases, existing, competitve independent refiners like UDS and Valero (which eventually was acquired by Valero) and independent, competitive refiner marketers.
In the industry you generally have the major oil companies (ExxonMobil, etc.) with their own refining operations (reduced but not fully divested). They sold off some, but not all, only keeping the most modern and effective locations both from an efficiency and geographical nature and FTC regulatory nature.
Some of these sell offs led to the creation a giant competitor like Valero, which strains the traditional defnintion of "major oil" company if you look at all the metrics other than crude exploration and production.
Below this level you have whole tier of "refiner marketers" such as Marathon, Sunoco etc. and to some extent Citgo (though it does get its sour crude from the parent company Pedavesa). These are not linked to major oil company brands and in fact are fierce competitors.
Smaller independent refiners like Holiday just do their own thing in their own niche.
Thus, if Citgo has a refining disruption, Shell and ExxonMobil and Marathon and Valero etc. may make $ based on the market price of refined gasoline (set by various commodity traders and their customers reacting or even overeacting to market conditions) but Citgo will not be enjoying that so much since it is not shipping a certain percent of its product into the market. No real incentive I can see, or for that matter that the FTC has been able to see on a number of occasions.
Also, as prices get high enough imports come into the market from other competitors overseas (as supply allows) eventually building up supply and driving down wholesale price.
Charon
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If your state governments are so concerned, they should lift the respective gas taxes. On average, thats about 25 cents a gallon
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Originally posted by LePaul
If your state governments are so concerned, they should lift the respective gas taxes. On average, thats about 25 cents a gallon
Yeah, just watch out for those big potholes next spring! ;)
(http://photos.freenewmexican.com/2007/01/04/45607_375x375.jpg)
hell, as many state and government employees on the payroll that are paid with gasoline taxes, imagine the unemployment rates going wild! ;)
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Originally posted by Odee
"Near historic lows"... :rofl :rofl :rofl
Now that's a laugh when we have a three year reserve stockpiled. Makes you wonder how man decades we had in storage before, doesn't it? :rofl :rofl
Where in the world did you get "3 year reserve"?
30 to 40 days have been typical stockpiles ever since they created the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
The reserve stores about 700 million barrels of crude oil in underground salt caverns at four sites along the Gulf of Mexico, and was authorized to increase that to 1 billion barrels in 2005 (which AFAIK has not been completed yet --- takes time to prep a new cavern).
As of May 15, 2007 there was an estimated 274.7 million bbls of sweet crude and 414.9 million bbls of sour crude in the Reserve (http://www.spr.doe.gov/dir/dir.html). 689.6 million bbls total. THAT'S a 33 DAY SUPPLY on hand, and most of it is not sweet crude.. Even if the Strategic oil reserves were at 1 billion barrels in the ground now, and domestic production was not affected, the the SR would last about 63 days.
United States usage is around 20.89 million barrels of oil A DAY, and growing at over 2.5 % per year. United State oil production is only 5.15 million barrels a day.
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I still see alot of Hummers, Expeditons and Navigators out there, so it can't be that high
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Originally posted by LePaul
If your state governments are so concerned, they should lift the respective gas taxes. On average, thats about 25 cents a gallon
Current price per gallon tax in Ohio is around 40 cents!!!