Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Movie on May 14, 2007, 06:05:04 PM
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which plane pwns all other a/c in aces high? I seen many opinions in fact I seem to lean my self towards the hog cuz of the flaps, rudder ,etc.
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With wep the -4 owns the pony D @ all altitudes in all respects.
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and it 4 hog outmanuvers all US army planes.
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nuh ah ;) ive proven that wrong on several occasions as it is genarally not the plane its the pilot....
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I can make a -1 out manev a p51d all day long along with 95% of the planes in AH.
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F4U-4 best prop fighter in the game.
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any hog is better than a pony :D
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Since neither of them are a KI-84, neither is the best ;)
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your horrible your all horiible :cry
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Originally posted by evenhaim
nuh ah ;) ive proven that wrong on several occasions as it is genarally not the plane its the pilot....
I would say, if Movie, or anyone else here switch from a Mustang to a Hog, we remain the same pilot.
Anyway, only if there is a rather big discrepancy, regarding the pilot skill, the P51 pilot will outmanouver the 4-hog. ;)
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As I regular pony pilot I can say with certainty: The -4 hog eats the pony up clearly.
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Whichever one is made by Messerschmitt :aok
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Sorry Knegel:
F4U-4 either paces or outruns the Pony at most altitudes and where the P-51 DOES have the advantage it's not by much. Hog out-accelerates, out-climbs, out-zooms, out-turns, out-rolls and will soak up more damage. And while I never use it as a jabo, hauls a heavier load.
Really the only two advantages the Pony has is range on internal fuel (4-Hog just doesn't have much loiter time) and pilot visibility.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Sorry Knegel:
F4U-4 either paces or outruns the Pony at most altitudes and where the P-51 DOES have the advantage it's not by much. Hog out-accelerates, out-climbs, out-zooms, out-turns, out-rolls and will soak up more damage.
I think that is exactly what Knegel was tryin to say.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
nuh ah ;) ive proven that wrong on several occasions as it is genarally not the plane its the pilot....
ORLY? Ok, you get on a 747 and I get on a F-18 and see who wins ok?
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:aok
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Originally posted by AKDogg
I can make a -1 out manev a p51d all day long along with 95% of the planes in AH.
SHHHHH....don't ruin the secret.
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Originally posted by Saxman
F4U-4 best prop fighter in the game.
Agreed, but I still give the P47N the nod over 30k...I still love my big blues though!
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peeee51 doesnt stand a chance againist a -4
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Originally posted by evenhaim
nuh ah ;) ive proven that wrong on several occasions as it is genarally not the plane its the pilot....
Have you lost many F4U-4's to P-51's?
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Agreed, but I still give the P47N the nod over 30k...I still love my big blues though!
Ageed!!!!:aok
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What it comes down to is the flaps.
Any f4u can turn on a dime once they have 2 or more flaps down. "clicks"
The good thing is,once that is done all you have to do is pull back and allow the f4u to bleed further e while trying to retract those flaps.
If done right you will get a f4u behind you,that has most likely full flaps out,you pull his nose up..he freaks out start's puting his flaps up, his nose go's back down his wing dips and he strugles to fly.
Meanwhile you sit back in your ki-84 or wtf ever and laugh as you pull your nose around and make another pass.
If you have a f4u on your six with flaps down,just pull up.
Then laugh.
Dont try and turn fight with a f4u on full flaps,you will not win.
The flaps fully down add's a stability seldom seen in aces high, the damn thing wont dip over even at 90mph. "unless you pull back on the stick,then enjoy your fall."
F4u's are cannon fodder.
Unless the other pilot is a punk high alt funky junk monkey.
even then all i do is dip my nose down for a inverted loop, pull in behind them and fire at longer ranges as that punk try's to pull out above me and zoom away. "twirls finger"
big men..big men.
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Originally posted by Furball
Have you lost many F4U-4's to P-51's?
maybe....:noid
not really but when i encounter em they usually die
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
What it comes down to is the flaps.
Any f4u can turn on a dime once they have 2 or more flaps down. "clicks"
The good thing is,once that is done all you have to do is pull back and allow the f4u to bleed further e while trying to retract those flaps.
If done right you will get a f4u behind you,that has most likely full flaps out,you pull his nose up..he freaks out start's puting his flaps up, his nose go's back down his wing dips and he strugles to fly.
Meanwhile you sit back in your ki-84 or wtf ever and laugh as you pull your nose around and make another pass.
If you have a f4u on your six with flaps down,just pull up.
Then laugh.
Dont try and turn fight with a f4u on full flaps,you will not win.
The flaps fully down add's a stability seldom seen in aces high, the damn thing wont dip over even at 90mph. "unless you pull back on the stick,then enjoy your fall."
F4u's are cannon fodder.
Unless the other pilot is a punk high alt funky junk monkey.
even then all i do is dip my nose down for a inverted loop, pull in behind them and fire at longer ranges as that punk try's to pull out above me and zoom away. "twirls finger"
big men..big men.
Wow, you really are an experte, what is your ingame name?
Steve
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Is it just me or when every time I fly the 4-hog and get shot, the 50 cal machines guns are the first thing to get hit and no longer work?
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Movie I get that a lot. But it's usually only 1 or 2 guns
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Karma:
My response to your nose-low inverted loop/split-S:
If my E isn't too high a hard roll over, notch or two of flaps and follow you down, throttle adjustments as necessary to avoid overspeed. Going nose-low against an F4U is rarely a good idea, especially in a plane like the Ki-84 whose controls start losing authority as speed builds up. Remember the F4U's roll and elevator response get BETTER with speed, something you can't say for a lot of planes and especially the Frank (though I'll grant you she's more forgiving than the Zeke). Also, power-on WEP the Corsairs really crank it up in a dive, so if you're doing it as an escape you're kidding yourself. The F4U will both exceed your dive speed, and without the control lock/parts shedding.
If I have too much E to follow I go full nose up and immediately begin to roll to keep you centered at the top of my canopy. Proper timing and execution I'm right back on your 6. You're also underestimating der Uber-rudderen (a new Corsair term :D ). Corsair has one of the best rudders in the game so even if I don't have the E for what I described above, I can still get that nose pointed back downhill for a snapshot before you can come back up through the top of your loop.
Also, the Frank's advantages against the four 1-series Hogs are mostly lost against the -4 (which the 4-Hog is the one this thread was about).The 4-Hog is to the Frank what the 1-series are to the Zeke. She's faster at all altitudes (with and without WEP. In fact, the -4 without WEP will run down the 84 WITH WEP) and will leave the 84 behind in the straight climb at most altitudes, (without WEP Ki has a narrow advantage between 5 and 10k, with the -4 dominant from SL to 5k, and 10k up. On WEP all alts above 7k the Frank won't match) and wins in any contest of energy retention. In low-speed acceleration the -4 is only half a second behind, and the Hog takes over in the mid and upper ranges.
HARDLY cannon fodder.
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Data Comparison (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p51d&p2=f4u4)
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
F4u's are cannon fodder.
Unless the other pilot is a punk high alt funky junk monkey.
even then all i do is dip my nose down for a inverted loop, pull in behind them and fire at longer ranges as that punk try's to pull out above me and zoom away. "twirls finger"
Tell ya what hotdog... I'm in the TA most evenings training folks. Stop by, grab a Ki-84 and I'll take an F4U-4.
We'll see who laughs....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Tell ya what hotdog... I'm in the TA most evenings training folks. Stop by, grab a Ki-84 and I'll take an F4U-4.
We'll see who laughs....
My regards,
Widewing
WW, I couldn't even get this clown to say what his in game name is.
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F4U-4 will eat the Ki-84 for lunch if the F4U pilot has a clue about how to use it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
F4U-4 will eat the Ki-84 for lunch if the F4U pilot has a clue about how to use it.
Absolutely.
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F4U-4 completely outperforms the Ki-84 in practically every way, though it often seems the other way around for the F4U-1A and Ki-84, both of which entered service in the same year if i'm not mistaken.
In that scenario, it seems that the F4U-1A can only outdive and sometimes, outzoom the Frank. In fact, the frank's powerloading helps it to hang w/ the Corsair sometimes. I feel, unfortunately, that really good Frank pilots have the ability to eat my A-Hog alive, though it's very rare to see a good Frank pilot. Making a Frank overshoot usually isnt a problem, but some of them are smarter than that. I really don't think there's much an F4U-1A pilot can do against a good Ki-84 pilot.
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Stay high and stay fast. Frank won't hang with ANY Hog in high-speed maneuvers, especially involving roll--although the F4U's rate of roll is among the best at any speed, really challenged only by the 190s and Spixteen. The F4U's instantaneous turn, particularly with Der Uberflappen deployed, appears to be marginally superior, and she WILL turn inside the Ki-84 at full flaps. However IMO don't ride your flaps. Practice learning when to drop a notch for that extra bump of the nose to get a snapshot. Set your guns in close range and GET in close. At 200yds the Deuce is lethal.
Oh, and the only way the 84 will catch (or lose) the F4U in the zoom is if she has too much of an E-advantage already, however even that's dicey. The F4U has too much mass behind her for a Frank to count on that.
Also, with equal energy states and unless he's already parked 400 yards off your six, the F4U will generally lose the Frank in a spiral climb.
Use your rudder, especially coming over the top of high yo-yos. Can't stress enough the Hog has one of the most effective rudders of any fighter, especially in vertical maneuvers. Kicking hard rudder and dropping a notch of flaps to help swing the nose over and give your playmate a nasty surprise.
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Spiral Climb, huh? Hm never thought of that in an F4U before.
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Executed properly the F4U can maintain the spiral almost indefinitely. Even some of the better straight climbers would be hard-pressed to keep up because of the Hog's ability to hang on to energy (I've done it against Franks, 38s, Spixteens and La-7s, generally with success). Just hold the spiral until your opponent gives up and as he levels out to break off or hangs himself out to dry kick inside rudder to flop over on him for a shot.
It's particularly effective against Zeros. They will NOT be able to follow you.
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The corsair was the absolute king of the cpiral climb in the PTO. The problem in ecexuting it is that it takes time to complete. Most people are too busy watching the target and not their gauges.
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There was a CT scenario a couple years back simulatuing the south american soccer wars of the 1960s where late model F4U (-4 or -5) fought P51Ds in real life. The AH F4U4 completely owened the P51Ds - I distinctly remeber laughing how easy it was to slaughter 51Ds in the -4 hog.
I doubt things have drastically changed in that matchup since.
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It's easier now, since the airflow recode.
P51s got a small handling benefit, but Corsairs became uber with the recode. Flat out uber. If you get killed in 'em it wasn't because of aircraft deficiency.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's easier now, since the airflow recode.
P51s got a small handling benefit, but Corsairs became uber with the recode. Flat out uber. If you get killed in 'em it wasn't because of aircraft deficiency.
Krusty, that's exactly the opposite of what actually happened with the drag model update.
P-51s suffered a big increase in drag associated with flap use as well as increasing the turning circle diameter. Currently, the P-51D can be out-turned by every fighter save the 190s. The Brits found the Mustang to be a better turner than the Jug, Tempest and Typhoon. Not so in AH2, at least not now. Turn radius increased by about 100 feet.
On the other hand, the F4U is virtually unchanged from before the drag model change. Turn radius is unchanged.
My regards,
Widewing
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I think the F4u changed a lot. Before the airflow recode I would fly the F4us on and off. They would be more like P-47s, in that they could turn, but wouldn't out-turn much (rough rough ROUGH generalization here).
After the airflow recode they're suddenly hanging with spit16s and spit9s and have seemingly no flaws (again, rough generalization).
I think the benefits granted to the Corsair are 90% of the gain, and the problems with the P51 are 10%. That's my opinion.
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FM model changes from last year
The winners
F4U series
Bf 109 series
P-47 series
The losers
P-51 series
P-38 series
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A hog4 will NOT own all US fighters in all departments at all alts.
Try stallfighting an FM2 on the deck :D
Then try some knifefight with the best of the brits and LW.......109F and Spit 16 at 10K or less.
Then I have to think about the higher altitudes.....
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save the p51 free tibet!!:cry
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Originally posted by Widewing
Krusty, that's exactly the opposite of what actually happened with the drag model update.
P-51s suffered a big increase in drag associated with flap use as well as increasing the turning circle diameter. Currently, the P-51D can be out-turned by every fighter save the 190s. The Brits found the Mustang to be a better turner than the Jug, Tempest and Typhoon. Not so in AH2, at least not now. Turn radius increased by about 100 feet.
On the other hand, the F4U is virtually unchanged from before the drag model change. Turn radius is unchanged.
My regards,
Widewing
AFAIK, RAF pilots flying the Mustang (III) had full confidence turnfighting with both 109's and 190's.
Those would be late 190A's and 109G's of course, unlike the cross-year series of the AH MA.
One notch of flaps, deployed nice and easy and they'd turn nicely.
From first hand though, from a pilot that flew both the Spit and P51, he said that the P51 would lose a dogfight, no doubt.
I remember an account of a mockfight between a P51 (H?) and a F4U (4?) where the hog had the better (another ?). The pilot of one was John Glen.
Anyone?
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Originally posted by Angus
A hog4 will NOT own all US fighters in all departments at all alts.
Try stallfighting an FM2 on the deck :D
Then try some knifefight with the best of the brits and LW.......109F and Spit 16 at 10K or less.
Then I have to think about the higher altitudes.....
Pick any plane you want. Then go to training arena and TRY to ping widewing in a 4hog.
gooooood luck.
Bronk
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Always choose the plane with the radial engine.
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Originally posted by Angus
A hog4 will NOT own all US fighters in all departments at all alts.
Try stallfighting an FM2 on the deck :D
Then try some knifefight with the best of the brits and LW.......109F and Spit 16 at 10K or less.
Then I have to think about the higher altitudes.....
Done all of those.. FM-2 vs F4U-4. Platano was flying the FM-2, I had the Corsair. The F4U-4 was the better of the two, flaps out in the weeds.... The F4U-4's massive power gives it an insurmountable advantage. Besides, it has a much faster turn rate which more than offsets the Wildcat's slightly smaller turn radius. Got film too.
The 109F can hold its own with the F4U-1A under certain circumstances, but the -4 is too strong in the vertical. I know the 109F well (ask Nomak), so I know where it's strong and weak. Likewise, I know the F4Us as well as anyone. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the Corsairs. The problem for virtually any other fighter is the F4U-4 has no weaknesses.
As to the Spit16. It has a better straight climb rate and accelerates a bit better from low to medium speeds. However, the F4U-4 offers much greater speed, better acceleration above 250 mph, a smaller turn radius and it is more stable at high AoA. In a head to head merge (Co-E), any F4U will beat the Spit16 on the reverse. That's the primary issue for the Spit16; living long enough to use its vertical performance to gain an advantage over the F4U-1 types. Against the -4, that vertical advantage is minimized as the F4U-4 zoom climbs better.
By the way, the higher you go, the more impressive the F4U-4 becomes. At 26,300 feet it will pull 453 mph in WEP.
My regards,
Widewing
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Like I was saying...
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I'm more inclined to trust WW's statements on changes made, if any, to the F4U flight models between versions. With all the testing he does around here I'm amazed he finds time in the Mains and DA to school the nonbelievers. :D
More than likely, if he says the F4U's flight model wasn't significantly or at all affected by the updated drag and airflow models, he's got test figures all the way back to AH1 to back that up.
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4-Hog is more capable and dangerous in the hands of a competent pilot.
The Pony is far more forgiving for noober players and not-so-good sticks.
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Originally posted by Angus
AFAIK, RAF pilots flying the Mustang (III) had full confidence turnfighting with both 109's and 190's.
Those would be late 190A's and 109G's of course, unlike the cross-year series of the AH MA.
One notch of flaps, deployed nice and easy and they'd turn nicely.
From first hand though, from a pilot that flew both the Spit and P51, he said that the P51 would lose a dogfight, no doubt.
I remember an account of a mockfight between a P51 (H?) and a F4U (4?) where the hog had the better (another ?). The pilot of one was John Glen.
Anyone?
While comparing the Mustang in a turn so much depends to the current fuel load and altitude.
The Mustang have more than 700kg internal fuel, so there is a wide range of liftload and powerload possibilitys.
That can be like to compare a 109 with 500kg bomb and without, its simply not the same plane.
If we assume that P51īs in general had at least 75% fuel when they did enter a combat over genramy( rear tank dry, droptanks just dropped), they should have had problems with outturning a 109 at slowspeed, at least there is no physical reason why the P51 should have so much lift. The Aitfoil is rather a high speed and than high lift airfoil and the wingload mainly is above that of the 109(without gunpods).
With 25% fuel, we get a absolut different piture, depending to the 109īs fuelload and type.
Anyway i guess when combatpilots talk about turning, they rather talk about the all over turnabilitys, where highspeed manouvers and stick forces count more than a slowspeed stallturns.
If the pilots would have rated the turnability by the slowspeed sustained turns, the FW190 never would have been rated that high as a fighter.
Greetings,
Knegel
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P51D turn stats
here u go (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/adamevenhaim/p-51d-cornerv.gif)
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They must have changed the Hog4 quite a bit then. I had tried them before vs the Spits and Ponys and usually had my arse toasted.:eek:
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Originally posted by evenhaim
P51D turn stats
here u go (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/adamevenhaim/p-51d-cornerv.gif)
Hi evenhaim ,
where are this datas from??
Angus, i always found the 4-hog with its super flaps to be a incredible advanced dogfighter. Only a few planes can climb as good, only a few can turn as good(full flaps and highseed), only a few planes roll as good(high speed mainly), only a few are as fast, only a few keep as much energy and strangewise only a few can decelerate like the hog and no other plane in AH have all this at once, resulting in the absolut widest range of possibilitys. In the 4-hog you can B&Z and T&B over the full range of altitude(only close to space some others are better) like no other plane, this is so since i know the F4U-4 in AH.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Before the update I had some sustained flap turns with Ponys and could not keep up with them. Same was with any Spit, and the XIV was my nightmare (was before we had the 16).
Now, I'm not a stick like Widewing, but I'm no newbie either ;)
So, tonight is going to be Hog time !
Or maybe I go to TA and look for Widewing. Online handle Widewing?
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Even the Hog cant overcome a possible fuel load or pilot disadvantage.
Though, vs the 14 it was rather easy to win.
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Originally posted by Angus
Or maybe I go to TA and look for Widewing. Online handle Widewing?
Yup
Bronk
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quote:
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
F4u's are cannon fodder.
Unless the other pilot is a punk high alt funky junk monkey.
even then all i do is dip my nose down for a inverted loop, pull in behind them and fire at longer ranges as that punk try's to pull out above me and zoom away. "twirls finger"
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Tell ya what hotdog... I'm in the TA most evenings training folks. Stop by, grab a Ki-84 and I'll take an F4U-4.
We'll see who laughs....
My regards,
Widewing
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I tell you what Widewing lets duel with your plane of choice with 3 conditions
#1 you have no ammo
#2 you only have 1 and a 1/2 wings
#3 you have no rudder
I DARE YOU YOU TO MEET THOSE CONDITIONS THEN WE WILL SEE WHO LAUGHS LAST LMAO
Just kidding man you could beat me with 1 wing
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Sorry guys, I was in Nashville for a DOD sponsored conference since Tuesday... I walked in the door about 20 minutes ago.
I'll be flying tomorrow evening.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by tedrbr
4-Hog is more capable and dangerous in the hands of a competent pilot.
The Pony is far more forgiving for noober players and not-so-good sticks.
Good fight last night
Agreed. What the F4U-4 is not superior in, still does well enough to keep good pilots honest, for the most part. For those that only see this plane as a cherry picker, don't know what they're missing.