Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: EsX_Raptor on May 15, 2007, 08:46:33 AM
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Alright, I know my 109 can outrun and outclimb most of its enemies. But for some reason it seems as if the P-38 is the only plane I cant beat. It can catch up with me so quick, that I cant outrun it nor outclimb it. Ive tried spiral climbing but it just wont work. Ive tried out turning it with the same results. If I dive, I die. What else is there left to do?
I thought the P-38 was just another E fighter with poor turn rate and maneuverability. But when it is on my 6, it is as if a mig 21 was chasing me.
Anyone can help me with this? :(
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your perception of the p38 in the right hands is all wrong... your only defense is to improve your SA and not let a 38 get your 6.. once they get saddled up they can be very difficult to shake
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But how come I dont have the same problem with other a/c? It seems that this often happens to me in the merge; I usually do an immelman, the 38 does one too and shoots me down right when Im upside down on the top, closing in fast on me. I see the 38 has an incredible zoom rate.
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the 109's and p38s in AH seem to be fairly evenly matched in my opinion sounds to me like you keep running into good p38 sticks they're just droping flaps and getting around on you.. which 109 do you fly?
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
But how come I dont have the same problem with other a/c? It seems that this often happens to me in the merge; I usually do an immelman, the 38 does one too and shoots me down right when Im upside down on the top, closing in fast on me. I see the 38 has an incredible zoom rate.
38 turns better than your 109, probably (don't know which 109 you're in), climbs nearly as well, accelerates comparably, and has far superior low-speed handling qualities.
- oldman
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I fly the K4.
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Can't the K4 simply dive away and outrun the fastest 38?
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
I usually do an immelman, the 38 does one too and shoots me down right when Im upside down on the top, closing in fast on me. I see the 38 has an incredible zoom rate.
You are playing the 38's game. While the K4 has a much better sustained rate of climb, the P38 excels when going in the vertical during a dogfight. It has a very good zoom climb capacity and one of the best handling characteristics when going over the top.
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you should be able to out pace a p38 at lower alts. in the k4 i wouldnt suggest trying to turn fighting them if you think they energy to go vrt with you
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*thinks*
Alright, every 109 is very stable at really slow speeds (using flaps to help) that could be an advantage. But now my question is, how good is a 38 at low speeds? I think this could probably work.
>x[ ... I just want to get my 30mm on it!
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
*thinks*
Alright, every 109 is very stable at really slow speeds (using flaps to help) that could be an advantage. But now my question is, how good is a 38 at low speeds? I think this could probably work.
>x[ ... I just want to get my 30mm on it!
If the 38 has any competence and can suck you into a low speed flaps out turning contest, you are lost.
When engaging the P38, always keep speed and E up. 38 has better low speed handling, better performance going over top, much better flaps. Make him bleed his E. Always keep some distance. Don't do a immediate immelman. Rely on sustained climb, not zoom climb.
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38's are easy if u dont let em get on your 6 to begin with...
There are soo many situational factors that can dictate How to beat a 38 in a 109... Some of which are:
Which 109 your in?
Which 38 is he in?
How high are you?
How high is he?
Wats your State of E?
Wats his state of E?
SOo many things that can affect the outcome of the fight. 109's and 38 IMO are soo evenly matched given equal cartoon pilots that these things must be taken into consideration.
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109K has all the advantages against a P-38L. The 109 is much faster at all altitudes, accellerates much faster, climbs much better at all altitudes (+1000 fps at SL), and turns much better both with and without flaps. With equal E states and pilot skill the 109 should win every time. My guess is the pilot skills in question are not equal.
A few tips:
If the 38 dives on you, split-S underneath him (use trim if necessary to pull out). He will not be able to follow and make a shot. If he's a noob he might even compress and auger. Extend as much as possible between every split-S to equalize E. Once he has spent his E advantage start building your own E as described below.
If you are equal in alt and E, extend in a low-G zoom climb and use your superior climb to gain altitude on him, and use your superior speed to keep him at arm’s length. You can use the E advantage to either B&Znore him to death or spend the E on saddling up on him.
If you saddle up MIND YOUR SPEED. The P-38 slows down very quickly and you’ll overshoot if not careful. Just throttle back, full rudder, flaps out and kill him. If he forces an overshoot WEP climb above him at the highest angle of attack you dare.
ALWAYS use flaps in a turn fight.
If he is on your six and closing to guns range, NEVER climb. The 38 is much heavier and will out-zoom you. Instead make a rudder-assisted roll inverted and split-S away. Use trim if necessary.
Learn to trim manually. Consider trim to be your high speed flight controls.
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Awesome response Viking :D:D
Ill take those tips and have them in mind whenever I engage another P-38. If somehow any other situations arise during the fight, Ill post them here for further help.
Thanks!
-Dalgurak
EDIT: Btw, I\'ll go check the stats for the 38
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Use DoK Gonzo's fighter comparison page:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
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38's are my favourite targets, especially the 'better' sticks in them :cool: I almost always turn with 38's if the guy in it is competent enough to survive more than a few seconds, and to do that, you need to work throttle and flaps; the 109's are much more forgiving than 38's at really low speeds. You don't really need to outfly the 38... it's such a big target, all you have to do is get it to cross your nose to land a 30.
If you like, I suppose I could show you what I do against 38's.
edit: all these guys saying that you're screwed in a low-speed turnfight couldn't be more wrong :huh Yeah, if you're using nothing but flat turns you're fked, but if you know how to work angles, it's easy. I think the only guys I couldn't beat with relative ease at low speeds K4 vs. 38 are in my skwad... There are so many ways to get snapshots in a K4. Against something like a 38, it's almost unfair. So easy to hit.
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Yes check the stats..... when you see me get slow and throw your flaps out... sounds like fun. I'll be in the 38!!
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Something not mentioned yet. At moderate to low speeds the 109 has a better roll rate and will do a wicked fast snap roll to the left. If in trouble you can use the horizontal scissors and get him "out of synch" without getting way slow. This will give you the chance to reverse him or motor away using your acceleration. Still tough when the 38 pilot's experienced.
Also, when escaping from US planes don't slam the nose down into a dive. Dang things are great divers. Use gentle zero G pushovers and watch how fast your airspeed increases.
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Kong, what do you mean with pushovers?
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Nose down push, is what I got. Basically pushing the stick so you tilt over into a dive. I'm 90% sure that's what it means in this context.
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Push your stick forward and watch your G meter. Keep it a zero G.
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Originally posted by wetrat
... There are so many ways to get snapshots in a K4. Against something like a 38, it's almost unfair. So easy to hit.
38 parts raining out of the skies due to taterz is a beautiful thing.
:t
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
Alright, I know my 109 can outrun and outclimb most of its enemies. But for some reason it seems as if the P-38 is the only plane I cant beat. It can catch up with me so quick, that I cant outrun it nor outclimb it. Ive tried spiral climbing but it just wont work. Ive tried out turning it with the same results. If I dive, I die. What else is there left to do?
I thought the P-38 was just another E fighter with poor turn rate and maneuverability. But when it is on my 6, it is as if a mig 21 was chasing me.
Anyone can help me with this? :(
Depending on your speed, the best way to shake one is with rolls. If 38 is slow enough, then its bad roll rate at low speeds can be exploited!:aok
Mark
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mark has a good point at slow speed 38's roll rate is something you can use againist it
P.S. JimBeam owns SkyRock:D
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Dalgurak, if you're in a turn-fight with a 38, are you leaving the throttle up at full or high?
cutting the throttle will help you drastically if you're trying to turn inside a 38.
On the whole, 38s should pose no real threat at all, down low or up high, fast or slow.
Uglystik pwned me in a 38 a couple of weeks ago, but other than that I can't remember the last time a 38 got me.
Even if you come a across a pilot who is your equal or perhaps even better... with the armament on them, you can survive a mistake or two.
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Originally posted by Engine
Can't the K4 simply dive away and outrun the fastest 38?
I would say outrun, yes.
However, in the immediate early stages of the dive, the 38 can pick up speed pretty quick with the dual props and heavier weight.
So the K4 can out accelerate overall, but in the "0-60" matchup, it's closer than you'd think.
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If you desire to force an over-shoot on a P-38, the 109 is particularly adept at a certain manuever which involves chopping throttle, rolling left, using hard left rudder and full 'negative' elevator input (i.e push forward)
This results in a rapid loss of speed. If you slow the roll initially, the 38 may be stupid enough to try and roll with you, thinking you're just trying to turn and escape. Speeding the roll up when you see the 38 start to roll with you will then hopefully result in him losing site of you and over-shooting.
Of course, in this case it is desirable that the P-38 has a 'medium' E advantage, IE, he is gaining on you from high-6 or even just dead-6. Provided the 38 is not too slow or massively fast, you'll be able to roll out behind him, firewall the throttle and then lob a few 'taters' at him.
Failing the kill-shot, you should be at least able to evade his sight for a moment... just long enough to extend and escape or start again.
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I just found a nice film which demonstrates this manuever.
-Youtube link- (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AViSe266GDc)
^ watch from about 3:20 (the entire film is pretty good though) the actual manuever takes place at 3:38.
In this clip, the roll is to the right so perhaps try it both ways.
I've always done it to the left.
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I being a 38 pilot will say the hardest part about 109s is that they can accelerate fast really quick. Trying to get separation is near impossible and if 109 cant stay in the fight and decides to bug out it can outrun the 38. Trying to outvert the 38 isnt a very good idea. Horizontal turns the 38 and 109 are about equal. The 109 however will perform better at higher speeds but when it gets slow I find the 38 to handle better. The 109 does have a much better roll rate so its easier for the 109 to force an overshot.
In my perspective, however, the 109 vs 38 is a very even match up.
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I would think such a move is only a video game construct, and would be nearly impossible to duplicate in real life (especially 20 feet off the water).
It's basically an outside barrel roll, from the looks of that link, but your attacker would have to be VERY close for it to work. So close they'd shoot you before you were able to pull off the overshoot. At least in AH, that's how it goes (you pull it when they're too far they just reposition or follow it in this game)
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I have used it to great effect in-game.
You are correct though, if done at the wrong moment or in the wrong situtaion, you might as well just bail out and save yourself a death.
The closure rates are important. If they are just creeping up on your 6, it will result in a swift death. If the closure rate is decent, but not too high you will find yourself with a kill-shot or at least an escape.
In the case of a P-38, they won't roll with you, especially not at slow speed and if even if they do get a shot off, a P-38 snap-shot rarely results in death. (at least in my experience, that is)
As a side note, the engine-deterioration effects after the 109 gets ganged are very, very cool. Wishlist material for sure.
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someone in this thread talks like they're widewing, yet flies like vanscrew! Can u guess who I'm talking about?
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Originally posted by Xasthur
...adept at a certain manuever which involves chopping throttle, rolling left, using hard left rudder and full 'negative' elevator input (i.e push forward)...
I will go ahead and try that :)
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
I thought the P-38 was just another E fighter with poor turn rate and maneuverability. But when it is on my 6, it is as if a mig 21 was chasing me.
Anyone can help me with this? :(
*Smiles maniacally*
:t :t :t
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Originally posted by SkyRock
someone in this thread talks like they're widewing, yet flies like vanscrew! Can u guess who I'm talking about?
Is he good at math too?
ack-ack
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IMO, the 2 Bf109 models that provide the best matchup for the P-38 are the F and K models. The F model turns better than the P-38, even at low speeds and the best way for a 38 driver to counter it is to keep the turn fight to the right at low speeds. The K model though provides the best over all matchup and if the K driver is a good stick then the P-38 driver will have his hands full with a good fight.
The other bf109 models are just fodder for the Lightning.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
But how come I dont have the same problem with other a/c? It seems that this often happens to me in the merge; I usually do an immelman, the 38 does one too and shoots me down right when Im upside down on the top, closing in fast on me. I see the 38 has an incredible zoom rate.
Esx_Raptor,
ask N7 of your squad or VWE or KONG even, to show you some other types of opening moves ( initial merges ) besides the straight up Dueling Arena Basic Merge. sounds by your description like you are showing repitition of the same merge , and everybody loves a 1 trick pony show, it is easily defeatable. Learn to mix it up, and as Platano mentioned, practice your SA ( situational Awareness ) on learning to judge the Energy your opponent is entering the fight with........you do not always have to Burn every bit of your "Energy" on the 1st Reversal.....
also when merging make your opponent react to your moves, not the opposite, if you maneuver in reaction to his moves you are losing the fight from the beginning......
hope this helps......
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when im desperate to shake a con if im in the 38 i typically will make sure hes close enough and pull up hard force him to stall and blow his arse up most knowledgible players know not to climb with the 38 at low speeds
(btw this is all relative to what a/c im fighting i wouldnt pull this with a f4u4)
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38, like the P51D and the P47 it all depends on those is at the controls.
Most are pretty clueless as to how to properly fly any of them.
But there are a few for each plane whom in their hands are very dangerous.
Very few "OK" pilots in any of them. They tend to be either very good or very poor.
Still even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Is he good at math too?
ack-ack
:rofl
You're a "Klown".........and ur right!!!
:aok
Mark
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Originally posted by SkyRock
:rofl
You're a "Klown".........and ur right!!!
:aok
Mark
rofl lmao i figured it out ....:noid
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Is he good at math too?
ack-ack
Hmmmmmm???
Bronk
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Esx_Raptor,
ask N7 of your squad or VWE or KONG even, to show you some other types of opening moves ( initial merges ) besides the straight up Dueling Arena Basic Merge. sounds by your description like you are showing repitition of the same merge , and everybody loves a 1 trick pony show, it is easily defeatable. Learn to mix it up, and as Platano mentioned, practice your SA ( situational Awareness ) on learning to judge the Energy your opponent is entering the fight with........you do not always have to Burn every bit of your "Energy" on the 1st Reversal.....
also when merging make your opponent react to your moves, not the opposite, if you maneuver in reaction to his moves you are losing the fight from the beginning......
hope this helps......
You are 100% right TC. About the "making your opponent react to YOU" part, yes, I had seen it before somewhere in a trainer's writeup (not sure who) With mix it up, what do you exactly mean? I always do immelmans ever since Ghosth told me it takes less energy to do that compared to a flat turn (which I have been told by other 109 pilots they should be avoided)
Thanks.
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
I thought the P-38 was just another E fighter with poor turn rate and maneuverability.
man have you been thinking wrong here.
one thing to know about the 38, what it can't out run it'll out turn... what it can't out turn, it'll "extend" to regain advantage. Either in speed or alt or both.
38 is a mean ride.
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"38 is a mean ride"
Well said. I usually give 38s a wary eye over La7s or P51s in the middle of a fight, simply because they have the most potential (if the pilot is good) to kill me. 38s and Ki84s share that, IMO.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
man have you been thinking wrong here.
38 is a mean ride.
But an easy target :t
Originally posted by Krusty
...and Ki84s share that...
Ki84s are very easy.
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The 38 is definitely not a piece of cake for a 109 when flown by a good stick. Typically, yes, I agree.... the 38 is nothing to be afraid of. But then get someone real good with it, like Murdr, Akak, Lazer, Pawz, IceBirdV... and if you make one mistake, you will end up in the tower quicker than you think, no matter what 109 you are in. I do have to admit, however, that if you start the fight in an advantageous position, its hard for a 38 to shake you off a 109.
Finally, as far as how to shake off a 38 that is already on your six, and is flown by a good stick... yeah, good luck. Its only a matter of time before we meet in the tower.
Emu
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Every 109 except the K-4, turns better than every P-38 except the G. The equalizer working in favor of the P-38, however, is that the inherent stability of that plane allows it to pull very tight angles in the shortest possible execution time, whereas a 109 requires to be 'nursed' into maneuvering into very tight angles. An adept pilot can shorten the required time to do so, but in many cases that still isn't enough to really match the P-38 during maneuvering.
Another problem is that the inherent stability of that torqueless freak, allows it to pull its nose up at even extremely low speeds. This becomes a problem when you're fighting in the vertical.
Against most enemies a 109 pilot can feel more or less confident about the moment when he's gained the final edge he needs for getting the critical upperhand after the merge. Draw the fight into the vertical against a - let's say - P-47 or a P-51, and after a few minutes your superior acceleration and climb puts the enemy under you at 600~800 yards. They'd love to take a pot-shot at you, except they can't pull their noses up to fire at you. Then you reverse over the top, and blast away.
Now, against a P-38, this rarely works. You know you've gained the upperhand in the E fight - except, despite extreme low speeds and disadvantaged E state, the P-38 will rear its head up like a snake, and take a shot at you, and good pilots do connect that 600yard shot. (That's when things start going really pissy, and you feel that urge to rant about AH and its damned long-range gunnery.. but that is another story..)
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Ultimately, for the average 109 pilot of AH, the best method is to stick to the classic 109 'hunting' tactics:
- The practical hunting tactics for the average 109 pilot who can't do that 'vet' stuff -
(1). Approach with some amount of E advantage in the first place. Don't kid yourself that you can squeeze yourself into an E advantaged position during the fight itself - it doesn't happen. You may be able to do that against Spitfires or P-51s or N1K2s, but it doesn't work against La-7s(outaccelerated) or P-38s(torqueless freaks).
(2). Getting a P-38 coming down on you, is definately a no-no. When a P-38 comes down and lands behind you at 800yards, don't ever expect to you can actually outmaneuver him or something. Centerline 50cal+20mm armament isn't something you'd like to take chances against. If the P-38 is indeed such a superior plane as some claim, then there's no shame in just buggering out of the fight and seeking help from your friends - especially if a good pilot is inside that freak. Maybe after a while he'll PM you about how weak you are, or how you aren't going to learn anything, and blah blah blah blah blah with the vet-trash lingo, but hey, you aren't obliged to become cannon fodder for free. In most cases those vet-guys just hate coming down low into the fray, and they'll give up the chase farely soon.
(3). In other words, don't ever meet a P-38 that is higher than you alone. Do what the P-38 guys themselves do - just go away when there's a higher bogey that may force you down low into the hellpot of a furball. Just move away, come back later with more alt. The chances are, when that happens the other guy will just back away too. Happens all the time. Remember again, that you aren't obliged to do anything - especially charge into a fight you know you are disadvantaged in the first place.
(4). If you do have a good amount of E advantage, hunt and corner the P-38 to the best of your knowledge. The 109 is at its best somewhere between that lazy, half-witted Bore-n-zooming and the brainless, point-and-click turning fest of a fight.
(5) The P-38 is great in verticals, but that doesn't mean it can just shake away a disadvantage in E. Approach and dive attack, but mind your pull-out flightpath. Don't ever do that BnZ thingy where you take a dive at him and then bugger away out of his icon range - if you wanted to do that you should have upped a P-51 or a 190D.
(6) Take a poke at him, make him turn, loop, or do whatever he thinks he can do, and then, while he is recovering from the maneuver, take another poke so he is forced to maneuver prematurely before recovering much of his E. To do this, you have to constantly stay inside at least 2.0k distance. If the distance is further than 2.0, the P-38 has enough time to recover most of his E. This actually needs some experience, since if you don't do this right, that "2.0k" can quickly turn into "400" with him behind you.
(7) If you pushed him down towards the deck, then you've half succeeded. Tighten your grip a bit more and keep conscious of the moment when you'll commit. Remember - once committed, there's no turning back, and one of you is going to get shot down. Usually, even if at deck, the first few moments the P-38 still has enough E to pull some wild reversals and loops on you. Corner him a bit more, so he starts to show signs of really straining at low speeds to do that loopy stuff he does. When you see that happen, that's the time for you to commit. Dump all the extra E that makes you prone to overshoots, land behind him and start matching his turns for the kill.
(8) Or a popular alternative, is to approach slightly higher with really really high speed, and then go all vertical on him. Many P-38 pilots have that charactersitic overconfidence in verticals - and if they see a 109 trying a merge, and then go vertical, their first instinct is to follow it. It's like running around a dog - when a dog sees you run, he's gonna chase you. However, the dog does the same thing even if you're driving a car - despite the fact that dogs cannot catch cars. So, act as if you're wanting a merge. When the two planes brush by, go into an immelmann, and the P-38 will follow you. This is why you need so much more speed than normal circumstances - his instinct is going to make him try and follow any immelmann he sees. And when he does, you've got the rope-a-dope on him. At best, you're gonna shoot him down. At worst, you've got him stalling under you and you're on the offense.
Stick to the above tips, and most P-38s won't bother you... If some of the better pilots are involved, then you shouldn't be flying around those guys in the first place. They have this nasty attitude of a drunken father who beats his child with belt buckles for "education". Remember - if you want to learn anything, learn by winning, not by losing.
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hmm lets see here. i fly a 109 and when a p38 gets on my 6 since the 109 is WAY better at the scissors i simply just scissor him till he gets close then a lag roll them. this move take a long asssss time to learn but is awesome when you learn it.
the P38 is heavy and as a slow roll rate scissors are the way to go.
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Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
Ki84s are very easy.
Just like the average P38 pilot, the average Ki84 pilot sucks and doesn't know how to fly the plane he's in. However, they both have a lot more potential than most of the planeset. When it comes to a furball, IF they have a good pilot in them they'll outfly and kill anything else they encounter.
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When it comes to a furball, IF they have a good pilot in them they'll outfly and kill anything else they encounter.
Then how'd you explain every P-38 staying 5k above a furball, instead of actually being inside one? :D
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The word "IF".
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the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik. the rest of those guys are akakospherers.
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Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik. the rest of those guys are akakospherers.
Some try that, but the 38 is pretty horrible as an alt-monkey option. Once it breaks into the 400s in a dive (which takes all of no time at all) it becomes practically auger-matic, and it takes some skill just to hold its speed down. It's just wasted airspace (and wasted time getting up there) above a certain point. I also find it pretty crummy in high altitude engagements (including buff killing), but it might just be me.
At the same time, getting into a sustained turn fight in a furball is a real bad idea as well in the 38, among other reasons due to the fact that it's a bogey magnet and its profile when banking presents a huge target. Best to keep it vertical. To hell with the merry-go-rounders. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik. the rest of those guys are akakospherers.
LOL. Well I know a bunch of good 38 sticks who prefer to mix it up in the weeds. I wouldn't claim to be one of them, but you can sure find me turn fighting on the deck in my 38G.
To categorize all the 38 players as alt monkeys is a bit off the mark I'd say.
We had 20 of em up last night and our starting alt was 10K. If that makes us alt monkeys, the definition has changed as we spent most of the night down low turning.
As for AKAK, I've seen him fighting down low many a time. If he's flying solo and uses alt, I can't say I blame him, anymore then I would blame a 109 driver for doing the same thing.
And Storch, I don't ever recall being above you in a fight :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Then how'd you explain every P-38 staying 5k above a furball, instead of actually being inside one? :D
That is a blatant untruth Kweasssa.
Anyone whose ever seen my 38G, would say it's down on the deck, probably smoking, but turning inside the furball. it's the only place that's fun for me :)
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Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik. the rest of those guys are akakospherers.
it doesn't take a pellik to kill you in a 38 now does it :)
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Dalgurak you have PM.
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but it does take more than an eagler :D, some days
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Originally posted by Guppy35
As for AKAK, I've seen him fighting down low many a time. If he's flying solo and uses alt, I can't say I blame him, anymore then I would blame a 109 driver for doing the same thing.
And Storch, I don't ever recall being above you in a fight :)
Storchita is just bitter because no matter what she tries against me, I always end up on her six and shoot her down. Regardless if we're on the deck or co-alt, the result is always the same "You shot Storchita down" and then come the typical channel 200 or PM whines from her about how I used some trickery or such nonsense. *shrug*
If you notice, she'll say the same about anyone else that is better than she is at this game.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Eagler
it doesn't take a pellik to kill you in a 38 now does it :)
nor does it take someone with an aimbot...
ack-ack