Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bruno on May 17, 2007, 01:31:53 AM
-
What was the first RAF squadron to transition to the Spitfire IX? What was the service date? When did the Spitfire IX enter service in the MTO (which squadron)? Please source your answer...
Same question in regards to the Spitfire VIII.
TIA
-
Just did a cursory look through my books and came up dry. Sadly my Spitfire books are mostly technical in nature.
Dan or Kev should be able to shed some light though.
First Spit VIII squad in CBI was April, 1944, possibly with 136 Squadron. (Spitfire Flying Legend; Dibbs, John and Holmes, Tony; Osprey Pub; page 67, ISBN 1 855325942).
Not what you were looking for though. Just what I found.
-
Sorry, dry here as well :(
All ive got is that roughly 5,560 were produced, and it was a rushed version to counter the Fw-190. Doubt that helps, but hey...
-
Will dig around, but basically -
ETO
F IX - July 1942, 64 sqn Hornchurch. (first combat kill by F IX July 30)
LF IX - March 1943, 611 and 341 sqns Biggin Hill.
LF IXe - Difficult, prior to June 1944. (some field mod kits)
HF IX - Spring 1943, 64 sqn
XVI - Oct 1944, 443 Sqn
First use of 25lbs boost -
LF IX - 165 sqn May 1944
MTO -
more details to follow.
Serentiy - that figure is for all versions of IX, the LF IX comprises some 4010 of them on its own, whch leaves around 1500 F IX and HF IX.
Edited to include the XVI as its basically an LF IXe.
-
Ah, thanks. That was from a book that pretty much has EVERY WWII plane, so none are done in terribly much detail.
-
The VIII entered in the MTO in 1943
-
MTO -
F IX - Dec 1942, attached to 145sqn ???????
VIII - June 1943, 145sqn
-
145 sqn = part of 244 wing together with 92 and 601 as well as hosting the Polish. (Polish Fighting Team abbrev. PFT)
Had the IX in March and the VIII in June.
92 and 601 followed the same line, just a little later.
One heck of a fighting team there, - names like Skalski, Duncan Smith, Neville Duke....
-
Originally posted by Angus
145 sqn = part of 244 wing together with 92 and 601 as well as hosting the Polish. (Polish Fighting Team abbrev. PFT)
Had the IX in March and the VIII in June.
92 and 601 followed the same line, just a little later.
One heck of a fighting team there, - names like Skalski, Duncan Smith, Neville Duke....
A small contingent (unknown how many) of F IX were attached to 145 in Dec 1942 once the 190's started showing up there.
This would be the first use of F IX in the MTO.
-
I have good dates for the service introduction for the IX and VIII - However, in regards to specific theaters its a bit harder to to narrow down the data.
I know that there were still a lot of Spit Vs in service going into 1943. I know that most of the Spitfire squadrons stationed in England received Spitfire IXs first. I know that many Spitfire squadrons else where, particularly in the Med, where still equipped with Spitfire Vs.
I wonder if its possible to establish - on a per squadron basis - the ratio of Spitfire XIs to Spitfire Vs for the year 1943 in the MTO?
TIA
-
Originally posted by Bruno
I have good dates for the service introduction for the IX and VIII - However, in regards to specific theaters its a bit harder to to narrow down the data.
I know that there were still a lot of Spit Vs in service going into 1943. I know that most of the Spitfire squadrons stationed in England received Spitfire IXs first. I know that many Spitfire squadrons else where, particularly in the Med, where still equipped with Spitfire Vs.
I wonder if its possible to establish - on a per squadron basis - the ratio of Spitfire XIs to Spitfire Vs for the year 1943 in the MTO?
TIA
Only problem with that -
The ratio would change as the year progressed.
Plus if it's for some scenario you have to remember that our V only represents a 1941 Vb.
By 1942 you had the F Vc, LF Vc, by 1943 the LF Vc 'CCC' version. (Clipped, Cropped and Clapped)
All 3 would have been in the MTO by 1943 (with the Vb being very rare) in addition to the IX's and VIII's.
-
Originally posted by Kev367th
...Clapped...
I know what the other two are...but whats clapped?
-
It's British slang for worn out.
Referring to the fact they were old.
-
At work at the moment. Should be able to help narrow it down for you Bruno when I get home, which will be late tonite.
-
Hiyas:
Kev & Angus are on it, however, if I may chip in:
Spitfire IX
ETO
64 Squadron: Hornchurch - June 42. Operations Record Book (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no64spit9.jpg)
401 Squadron: Biggin Hill - July 42. ORB
402 Squadron: Redhill - Aug 42. ORB
611 Squadron: Redhill - July 42. ORB
MTO
81 Squadron: Bone, Algeria - Jan 43. Colin Gray
72 Squadron: Souk-el-Kemis, Tunisia - Jan/Feb 43. Bobby Oxspring
92 Squadron: Bu Grara, Libya - March 43. Neville Duke
145 Squadron: Bu Grara, Libya - March 43. Rawlings
By the time of the Sicily invasion (Operation Husky) in July 43 at least 26 Squadrons based in North Africa and Malta were equipped in whole or part with Spitfire IXs.
See also: Spitfire IX (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html)
Spitfire VIII
145 Squadron: Malta - June 43. Rawlings
244 Wing: 92, 145, 417, 601 used Spitfire VIIIs during Sicily invasion
See also: Spitfire VIII (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html)
Mike
-
Mk IXs In the Mediterranea Theate:
The entry into service of the Spitfire Mk IX enabled RAF Fighter Command to regain the air superiority it had lost over north west Eurpe to the Fw 190. In the Mediterranean theatre it was the same story, though not until the Mk IX arrived there early in 1943. The first unit to receive it, No 81 Sqn base at Constantine in Algeria, went into action with its new aircraft on 31 January, and soon afterwards a second unit, No 72 Sqn based at Souk el Kemis in Tunisia, also received Mk IXs.
Page 15 of Late Marque Spitfire Aces 1942-45 by Dr Alfred Price
The first production Mk IXs were delivered in June 1942, and No 64 Sqn at Hornchurch duly became the premier unit to re-equip with the new variant. On 28 July it was declared operational, and after a couple of operations that saw no contact made with the enemy, Donald Kingaby gained the first victory in a MKk IX on the 30th.
Page 9 of Late Marque Spitifre Aces 1942-45 by Dr Alfred Price
-
As has been pointed out, Spit V is not a Spit V.
You have the L.F. V
...and the V.
Different animals, but almost all sources will just say "Spitfire V".
As for the service dates, as above, from my sources, looks like its been covered.
"Ratios?" good luck finding that. ;)
...and even if you did, again, they are misleading, example, 11 Group ADGB bore the brunt of ops against France 42-43, yet 12 and 10 Grps were "operational" with Spit Vs as well, so its a misleading # anyways.
Regards.
-
Originally posted by mw
Hiyas:
Kev & Angus are on it, however, if I may chip in:
Spitfire IX
ETO
64 Squadron: Hornchurch - June 42. Operations Record Book (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no64spit9.jpg)
401 Squadron: Biggin Hill - July 42. ORB
402 Squadron: Redhill - Aug 42. ORB
611 Squadron: Redhill - July 42. ORB
MTO
81 Squadron: Bone, Algeria - Jan 43. Colin Gray
72 Squadron: Souk-el-Kemis, Tunisia - Jan/Feb 43. Bobby Oxspring
92 Squadron: Bu Grara, Libya - March 43. Neville Duke
145 Squadron: Bu Grara, Libya - March 43. Rawlings
By the time of the Sicily invasion (Operation Husky) in July 43 at least 26 Squadrons based in North Africa and Malta were equipped in whole or part with Spitfire IXs.
See also: Spitfire IX (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html)
Spitfire VIII
145 Squadron: Malta - June 43. Rawlings
244 Wing: 92, 145, 417, 601 used Spitfire VIIIs during Sicily invasion
See also: Spitfire VIII (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html)
Mike
Do you happen to know how many Squadrons were equipped with Spitfire Vs from July to September 43?
-
The "Polish Fighting Team" was an early user of the Spit IX in N. Africa, I would look there as well.
Spit VIII seems to be from 145 Sqn Malta "June 43" (Alfred Price). They also served from the summer of 1943 from bases in Italy (RAF and RCAF), same source (Price).
USAAF 31st FG was the first American grp to use the VIII in combat, from August 1943 (over Sicily), I dont have an exact source though, perhaps Guppy has something more definitive?
Here is a link from a page, it does give some info, but I cant verify it (2nd paragraph down):
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html
-
Hi Squire:
I have documents showing the 31st FG using Spitfire VIIIs in July 1943 while based at Gozo (adjacent to Malta). The Unit History mentions conversion to IXs in April and VIIIs in May while still in North Africa. For sure that's true for the IXs but its less clear with respect to the VIIIs. 52nd FG had some VIIIs as well.
For example:
309th FS Mission Report for 11 July 1943 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/31st/309th-11july43.jpg)
Mike
-
Best I can do by taking the order of battle for the MTO Air Command and adding the dates the IX or VIII made their appearance with those Spitfire Squadrons. Hope it helps. I realize this is mid 43 but its the best I can come up with at the moment.
Order of Battle is from "Royal Air Force 1939-1945, Volme II The Fight Avails" by Denis Richards and Hilary St. George Saunders.
Mk IX entering squadron service dates from "Profile 206 Supermarine Spitfire Mk IX" By Peter Moss and Len Bachelor
From the order of battle MTO Air Command 10 July 1943
Spitfire units are listed as:
AHQ Gibralter:
No 544 Detachment Spitfire (Thinking these are Photo Recce Spits PR IVs
AHQ Malta:
Squadrons
No's 40(SAAF) 126, 185, (Spitfire Vb, Vc) 229, 249 (Spitfire IX from April 43)
No 1435 Flight Spitfire IXs from March 1943
No 683 Squadron Spitfire Vc
Northwest African Air Forces
NA Tactical Air Force
No 40 (SAAF) detachment Spitfire Vb
211 Group
No's 2 (SAAF), Spitfire Vc (2 Squadron is the only one I've found to have used the 4 cannon Vc in the ground attack role.
4 (SAAF) Spitfire IX July 43
244 Wing
1 SAAF, Spitfire Vc
92(Spit IX July 43-Sept 43), Spitfire VIII
145 Spitfire IX VIII(from June 43)
417 RCAF Spitfire VIII (Summer 43)
601. Spitfire V
No 322 Wing
81(Spit IX March 43)
152, Spitfire IX all of 1943
154, Spitfire Vc
232, Spitfire IX all of 43
242 Spitfire Vc
No 324 Wing
43(IX August 43),
72(Spit Vc),
93(Spit IXs October 43),
111(Spit IX July 43),
243 Spitfire Vc
US XII Air Support Command
31st FG 3 Squadrons Spitfires (Spitfire Vc,Spitfire IX, VIII, operating at the same time throughout the different squadrons)
No 242 Group
No 73 Squadron Spitfire (Spitfire Vc)
II/7 French Spitfire V
No 328 Wing.
US 52nd FG, three squadrons-Spitfire (Spitfire Vc, Spitfire IX, MkVIII operating at the same time)
NA Photo Recon Wing
682 Squadron Spitfire
HQ RAF Middle East
680 Squadron Spitfire V
HQ Air Defenses Eastern Med
127 Squadron Spitfire V
No 212 Group
No 80 Squadron Spitfire Vc
-
Good enough = Thanks Dan...