Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: kamilyun on May 18, 2007, 12:47:44 AM
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Not going to post links, but you can find them on major news outlets.
Just fluffied up.
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Saw it today on CNN, never wanted to kill so many people, so badly in all my life. Killed her simply because she loved a guy of a different faith. She was so beautiful too.
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Originally posted by -CodyC
Saw it today on CNN, never wanted to kill so many people, so badly in all my life. Killed her simply because she loved a guy of a different faith. She was so beautiful too.
I felt the same way. Sick, sick, sick.
The clash of cultures/values is crazy. Bass ackwards treatment of women captured on video from cell phones.
Bunch of perverts..."honor killing" and some guy rips her dress/pants off. May an IED serve them all justice.
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That is absolutely horrific. I do not feel angry or vengeful as much as saddened by the sight. Culture is an incredible thing.
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Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and enlightenment.
Pumping oil through heat-fused sand is a process I'd love to see implemented on a continental magnitude.
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My god, the treatment of women is simply apalling! Im sickened just thinking about it!
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The good is that they're a minority, much like wackos of other religions are a minority to actually have extremist tendencies, and a minority of a minority to actually act out their tendencies.
The bad is that it's really just like that.. I had friends I grew up with who, out of the blue in otherwise completely normal friendships, would say things like that:
"I mean imagine, if you took a girl home from a party late at night, and after you're [in bed] you turn the lights on - and it's your sister!! ... I'd kill her.. She'd have to die. [...]"
This guy was a totally normal guy, otherwise.. We both got the best grades in most classes, etc.. This wasn't something he would have naturaly thought up, it was bred into him. There's a lot of other anecdotes from other muslim friends I've had, mother-centric and equally weird (all of a sudden getting all stiff in the middle of dinner about his family and friends rising up with AK47s and taking control of Toronto like his father told him they could - this guy was Iranian, 13yo.. "Today Toronto and Canada, tomorrow the evil USA), but that's the gist of it everytime.
It's obsessive.
The ugly is how thick the wall between extremists and well-adjusted people is, especialy when they're from backgrounds as different as the inner USA and inner Islam. I could do nothing to change their minds. I couldn't even understand how they could put their faith before reason like that.. there was nothing to leverage them into even just entertaining a mode of thought other than their circular reasoning.
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Yep there is so much to admire in the arab "culture".
:rolleyes:
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I'll never understand the "culture".
A shame too because she was very pretty.
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But what about tolerence of other cultures? :rolleyes: (Im being facetious)
Originally posted by moot
I could do nothing to change their minds. I couldn't even understand how they could put their faith before reason like that.. there was nothing to leverage them into even just entertaining a mode of thought other than their circular reasoning.
Just ask the religeous right about abortion rights.
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Yet their are many liberals who have nothing bad to say about the poor muslims and reserve their most passionate hate for christians..
I can't believe that liberals and feminists are not screaming for us to "do something" about the horrors of the muslim religion.
It is difficult to take them seriously when they condone the muslim religion yet constantly attack the christian one.
lazs
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Although you don't condone stoning women lazs, your attitude that they shouldn't be allowed to vote etc. is very musilm-like....or is it Christian?
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Originally posted by Curval
Although you don't condone stoning women lazs, your attitude that they shouldn't be allowed to vote etc. is very musilm-like....or is it Christian?
thats a stretch, comparing stoning to voting.
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I am neither muslim nor christian curval.
I also have never said that women are equal to men like you liberals do.
I also have never advocated stoning them to death for some sexual predeliction or another.
Any other questions?
lazs
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lol
You have repeatedly stated that women should not have the same rights as men.
Women aren't allowed to vote in Musilm countries...you advocate the same.
Very musilm-like you are indeed.
I didn't say you advocate stoning women..in fact I specifically said you didn't. My you (and John9001) have a hard time reading.
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Originally posted by Serenity
My god, the treatment of women is simply apalling! Im sickened just thinking about it!
Want to see Islam disappear virtually over night?
Let Sharia Laws supercede our Constitution like the Islamists want.... Then you're going to see American women are a force to be reckoned with. I don't know of any American woman that will suborn herself the way the Sharia Law says.
Here is a good essay on the topic... Islamic Sharia Law (http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm)
References:
1. Honor killing-maintaining family honor: by Al Skudsi bin Hookah, roving reporter and foreign correspondent for The Gaza Gajeera. Jan 20, 2003
2. The Seattle Times: 'Honor killing' shakes up Sweden after man slays daughter who wouldn't wed: By Carol J. Williams, Los Angeles Times http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/honor_kill.htm).
3. Culture of death? Palestinian girl's murder highlights growing number of 'honor killings'. http://www.sullivan-county.com/w/cul_death.htm
4. Honor Killing: By Ali Sina http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50128.htm
5. The Holy Qur'an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983
6. Buchari Sharif, Bengali Translation by Maulana Muhammad Mustafizur Rahman, Sulemani Printers and Publishers, Dhaka, Second edition-1999.
7. "Crimes of Honour" Women's Tragedy under Islam & Tribal Customs By Azam Kamiguian.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Yet their are many liberals who have nothing bad to say about the poor muslims and reserve their most passionate hate for christians..
lazs
They both suck.. ok?
The best solution would be if both camps stoned eachother and left normal people alone.
:cool:
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Islam is only 400 years behind the times(remember the witch-hunts,stake burnings of the "Christians?")
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Originally posted by Curval
lol
Women aren't allowed to vote in Musilm countries...you advocate the same.
lol...Lazs does have a sence of humour..very dry sence of humour but funny nonetheless.:D
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Islam is only 400 years behind the times(remember the witch-hunts,stake burnings of the "Christians?")
You're a little off there. It's a lot more than 400 years. Honor killings, by stoning or any other means, is far more "popular", accepted, and common place, among Muslims today, than the types of events you refer to as being somewhat common and "normal" among what are loosely called "Christians" were 400 years ago.
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curval.. not sure what your point is...
I am not a muslim nor am I a christian. I do not advocate stoning women nor do I want them to wear burkas. I am not a christian and see no problem with sex outside of marriage.
What does my opinion on women being able to vote or not have to do with it?
It is of course only my opinion and I have no right to enforce it or even... get to vote on it. I should not be allowed to vote on it in fact.
Besides.. these days... most of you "men" are more like women in the way you vote than a lot of women. You think you are everyones mom.
lazs
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"What does my opinion on women being able to vote or not have to do with it?"
You are a huge hypocrite?
I personally think that stoning women for any reason is wrong...just like you. I also think women should keep their right to vote....unlike you and unlike many Musilms.
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I'm pretty sure you have to be stoned to have your scooter stolen.
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Curvall, "...your Mickey Mouse is one big stoopid dope!"
To avoid any confusions, here's a timeline for you all on the World's Religions.
- Hinduism - 4000 to 2500 BC
- Judaism - 2000 BC
- Zoroastrianism - 1000 BC
- Buddhism - 560 to 490 BC
- Shinto - 500+ BC
- Confucianism - 500 BC
- Jainism - 420 BC
- Taoism - 440 AD
- Christianity - 30+ AD
- Islam - 622 AD
- Sikhism - 1500 AD
- Bahá'í - 1863 AD
It might be noted that due to Political Correctness, there terms Before Christ (BC) and Anno Domini (AD referring to After Christ's Death) have been changed to BCE and CE to referrence Before Christian Era / Christian Era
Aparently some morons thought it cool to not refer to the name of Christ.
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srry u got banned mighty, you typically have fair things to say. Just need to be careful with the links man.
as far as Im concerned, I place zero value on any culture that treats women as cattle or dogs. Save the women, infants, and youngsters, Wipe the rest off the face of the planet.
edit: just saw the edited video on CNN. that whole region needs a mercy killing.
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Who could ever have enough of such a poetic Deus Ex as Divine law?
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i can't understand what could be inside men that would allow them to surround a young girl and throw large stones at her for a half an hour until she is dead - esp the father and brothers who raised her since she was a little girl.
If I recall, they were Kurds too. i thought Kurds were good muslims all this time.
then i read in the news that Islamic foreign ministers claim that Islamophobia is the biggest terrorism of all. What do they expect?
http:// http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273312,00.html
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That vid is very disturbing, at least no nipple was shown.
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Originally posted by Odee
It might be noted that due to Political Correctness, there terms Before Christ (BC) and Anno Domini (AD referring to After Christ's Death) have been changed to BCE and CE to referrence Before Christian Era / Christian Era
Aparently some morons thought it cool to not refer to the name of Christ.
So they changed it to BCE.... Before Common Era, as the term christian refers to Christ.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i can't understand what could be inside men that would allow them to surround a young girl and throw large stones at her for a half an hour until she is dead - esp the father and brothers who raised her since she was a little girl.
Ignorance, that is all there is to understand. They were ignorant.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So they changed it to BCE.... Before Common Era, as the term christian refers to Christ.
ahh thanx for clarifying that... I was going on my knowledgeable partners say so. Now that makes much more sense... Not that I agree with it, but it makes sense.
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They were ignorant.
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Thats an unacceptably benign term for premeditated murder.
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Originally posted by Odee
Let Sharia Laws supersede our Constitution like the Islamists want....
Well, no risk of that happening in the States, but plenty Republicans on the Religious Far Right(ousness) would like to see Christian Theocracy overlaid upon the Constitution.
Don't why folks are surprised the girl was pretty. Many of their women are, even beautiful....from what we saw early in the occupation. All through OIF-2 we noticed more and more of the females were covering themselves to protect themselves from the fundamentalists. Iraq, oddly enough, was probably the most secular Islamic state under Saddam, but is sliding to religious fundamentalism under the auspices of a "free nation". Surreal.
There is no cure to this way of thinking in their culture. I still hope the western nations finally realize they need to get off the oil economy, create alternatives, and pull out of that region to leave them to their own devices.
Without the western money, western military power, and western diplomatic efforts to try to keep the lid on the pressure cooker that is the Middle East, that whole Gulf Region will implode into warfare as everyone vies for power and control.
The best to hope for would be for all that hatred to burn itself out in mass death and destruction. Peace in the Middle East is only a fantasy perpetuated by western powers. I believe it will take true horrors to break their culture out of it's violent tendencies.
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Originally posted by Yeager
They were ignorant.
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Thats an unacceptably benign term for premeditated murder.
It's about the nicest thing I could post without being banned. I agree with you though Yeager.
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Ignorance, that is all there is to understand. They were ignorant. - Masherbrum
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I think it is more than that, Mash. There is something bad in there.
There is nothing bad in being ignorant. Just being ignorant would not lead you to heartlessly torture and murder a child, let alone your own child.
None of the ignorant savages who live in any of the jungles in the world do this.
I think you have to either go back to prehistoric times or to an insane asylum to see this (other than in the muslim religion that is)
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I think it is more than that, Mash. There is something bad in there.
There is nothing bad in being ignorant. Just being ignorant would not lead you to heartlessly torture and murder a child, let alone your own child.
None of the ignorant savages who live in any of the jungles in the world do this.
I think you have to either go back to prehistoric times or to an insane asylum to see this (other than in the muslim religion that is)
It should be implied guys. But when a "culture is still stuck in time 2,000 years ago", Ignorance would come to the forefront. Like you said "you have to go back to prehistoric times", the problem being, they're still there.
Again, I posted "politely". Again, that girl was gorgeous, was only 17 and had her whole life ahead of her.
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the problem is that religion. Islam needs to to be put to rest, permanently.
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Originally posted by Yeager
the problem is that religion. Islam needs to to be put to rest, permanently.
_All religions_ that in some way limits normal peoples FREEDOMS should be put to rest permanently.
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Originally posted by Yeager
the problem is that religion. Islam needs to to be put to rest, permanently.
I'd say the "Fanatics" in all Religions need to be put to rest. I'm Catholic and have friends with other religions and get along fine.
Heck, in 1991 when I attended Adrian College, one of my good friends was a member of the "Muhajadeen". He had started fighting the Soviets at the age of 15 and was 26 when he started at Adrian. He had no desire to go back to Afghanistan.
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Yeah like you'd never find that sort of nonsense in Xianity (well, as long as you don't read Deuteronomy or anything).
But I'm sure no one's ignorant enough to be an Xian who believes in the infallible word of god style bible in this enlightened western society.... otherwise they'd be hard up against this passage without the benefit of butter.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:=
If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die."
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
As Thomas Jefferson puts it: "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
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Originally posted by -dead-
As Thomas Jefferson puts it: "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
the christian god the jewish god and the muslim god are all the same god, the god of abraham.
but , it is not the "god", it is the men (false prophets)who claim to know "the word of god", and the people who blindly follow those false prophets.
no one knows the word of god, but many claim they do and invent stupid rules for people to live by and crazy punishments for failure to do so.
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Originally posted by john9001
the christian god the jewish god and the muslim god are all the same god, the god of abraham.
but , it is not the "god", it is the men (false prophets)who claim to know "the word of god", and the people who blindly follow those false prophets.
no one knows the word of god, but many claim they do and invent stupid rules for people to live by and crazy punishments for failure to do so.
Organized Religion is Man's worst invention ever. Been responsible for more pain, suffering, war, death, destruction, and atrocities than any other.
I'm staying agnostic.
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all i have to say is..... disguisting
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Organized Religion is Man's worst invention ever. Been responsible for more pain, suffering, war, death, destruction, and atrocities than any other.
I'm staying agnostic.
What atrocities have I committed? Newsflash - None!
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Originally posted by tedrbr
I'm staying agnostic.
Yeah, together with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao... enjoy the company.
Trying to blame pain, suffering, war, death, destruction and atrocities on religion is just plain stupid.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Yeah, together with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao... enjoy the company.
Trying to blame pain, suffering, war, death, destruction and atrocities on religion is just plain stupid.
SQUEAKER! :cool:
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Originally posted by moot
The good is that they're a minority,
Whatever gives you that idea? Fundie moslems might be in a minority compared to all moslems, but the ones doing these stonings and honorary killings are not always fundies.
The honor tradition is deeply rooted in these ethnical groups, and it is plain false to say that they are in a minority in those groups.
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Let all them radical muslims smell fresh fried bacon while watching an episode of Teletubbies in the cell next to hardcore christians looking at a full condom resting on top of the tv while debbie does oDALLASo is on.
THAT would be the perfect way to gimme a smile on my face. :)
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That video made me sick. Working in a prison I've seen just about the worse that people do to each other, but THAT just makes me sick. :furious
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I just cant for the life of me place Christians into the same category as Muslims. In my mode of observation, the two religions simply do not compliment other.
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Hortlund I mean those that wouldn't do all that without the massive bandwagon's inertia, e.g. living on their own in the well-adjusted West, are the majority.
I gather this from about 10 years of growing up alongside muslims of all sorts.
In any case I meant to put it in the perspective that you have little risk of this happening near your doorstep if you don't live in a majorly muslim population. I said in that same post that otherwise average joes would have the muslim honor reflex wake up all of a sudden every now and then, no matter how sensible they seemed beforehand.
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The duty of the Muslims is to Convert or Kill, while the duty of the Christian is to let every human on the face of the earth to have at least heard the word of God. God gave us free will and anyone who forces you to follow a certain ideology is not following Gods will. God needs us to love him, that's why he created us, and you can't force someone to love you.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
They both suck.. ok?
The best solution would be if both camps stoned eachother and left normal people alone.
:cool:
You and I HAVE to get together and have a few beers sometime.
And we can both drink to that one together
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Islam is only 400 years behind the times(remember the witch-hunts,stake burnings of the "Christians?")
Lets not forget the inquisition.
Ahhh the good ol days LOL
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The Inquisition was done by the Catholic Church, not by Christians. The Church was murdering Christians because they would not bow down to Church Rule. A large organized church is evil in it's very nature and our Founding Fathers knew that very well.
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Originally posted by Xargos
The Inquisition was done by the Catholic Church, not by Christians.
Ummm maybe its just me.
but it would seem to me the catholic church
IS a Christian church
Christianity encompasses a great deal of religeons.
Roman Catholic,Gnostics,Manicheans,Arians,Greek-Russian,Lutherans,Episcopalians,Calvinists,Presbyterians,Baptists,Quakers,Methodists,ChristianScientist,Jehovah Witness.
Are all demoniations of the "Christian" religeon
and its kinda hard to be a Christain religeon.
Such as the Catholic church
Without being Christian
and ot wasnt just the Catholics that were persecuted. but also the Jews and muslims.
or basically anyone who didnt conform to the church
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Many Christians do NOT consider Catholics to be Christians. I really don't want to get into this debate on this forum and I regret posting how I really feel. I prefer not to pursue this here.
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Torquemada... 1420 - 1498
Martin Luther... 1483 -1546
At the time of the Spanish Inquisition, the christian churches were Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox.
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hehe im immune im jewish:cool:
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I have been recently named as an honorary Jew.
With this great honor I get 2000 years of retroactive persecution.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Many Christians do NOT consider Catholics to be Christians. I really don't want to get into this debate on this forum and I regret posting how I really feel. I prefer not to pursue this here.
The inquisition started way before the reform
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Originally posted by straffo
The inquisition started way before the reform
What does the reform have to do with it? Christianity existed before the Church.
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is there any topic that we will not argue about?
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Originally posted by storch
is there any topic that we will not argue about?
NO! :D
BTW, it's a debate until someone starts talking about your mama and other BS like that.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Many Christians do NOT consider Catholics to be Christians. I really don't want to get into this debate on this forum and I regret posting how I really feel. I prefer not to pursue this here.
do a Google search on "Cristian Religeon"
You will find your "many" are in the minority
A "Christian" religeon would be any religeon who accepts Christ as the savoir and practices his teachings.
Or a better discription would be any which centers its core beleifs around Christ
The Catholic religeon passes on all counts
AND it was there first
http://www.truecatholic.org/grreligions.htm (http://www.truecatholic.org/grreligions.htm)
Pesonally I dont give a hoot about Catholosism or ay of the organised religeons.
But by catagory I see them for what they are
Seems each has its wn discription of what a "Christain" is
What is a Christian (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn2.htm)
Each claiming theirs is the "one true" version :rolleyes:
Sounds an awful lot like the Muslim sects claims from one to another
Funny thing is The muslims areant that far behind Christian religeons as to the animosity one sect has toward another.
Wasnt to long ago your family would disown you and probably your church too if you married outside of your particular sect.
the only real difference is you havent resorted to killing each other off.
Then again I probably wouldnt have to search that hard to find that to be a false statement.
News flash.
Your ALL Christians.
None of you have a leg up on any other.
To claim as such would not be by the word of God.
But nothing more then human arrogance.
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Originally posted by storch
is there any topic that we will not argue about?
You kidding me?
Thats half the fun of being here.:cool:
Hell sometimes I argue just for the sake of arguing LOL
I discribe this place as something akin to the old town pubs where the elders would get together , have some beer or brandy or whatever and debate the topics of the day.
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Dred, I'm not going to argue with you. I just don't approve of anyone forcing you to believe a certain way, like in Global Warming, which has Church written all over it too.
P.S. I probably need to make myself more clear. Some Members of the Catholic Church maybe Christian, but the Church itself is not. Does that come across better?
P.P.S. Let's not forget this thread is about the Murder of a young girl, not me going off on a tangent. Sorry.:(
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Originally posted by Xargos
Dred, I'm not going to argue with you. I just don't approve of anyone forcing you to believe a certain way, like in Global Warming, which has Church written all over it too.
P.S. I probably need to make myself more clear. Some Members of the Catholic Church maybe Christian, but the Church itself is not. Does that come across better?
P.P.S. Let's not forget this thread is about the Murder of a young girl, not me going off on a tangent. Sorry.:(
Does this mean the arguements over? :cry
;)
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Originally posted by Xargos
The duty of the Muslims is to Convert or Kill, while the duty of the Christian is to let every human on the face of the earth to have at least heard the word of God. God gave us free will and anyone who forces you to follow a certain ideology is not following Gods will. God needs us to love him, that's why he created us, and you can't force someone to love you.
I agree with your sentiment except for the part about God needing us to love him. God would not be diminished in any measureable way should he not receive the love of a single human being. However, that he loves us with a love so great we can hardly comprehend it and desires for us to be free from sin and perfected in Christ was clearly evident when he allowed his son to take our place on the cross.
"The Son of God suffered unto death, not that men might not suffer, but that their sufferings might be like His." - GEORGE MACDONALD
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is there any topic that we will not argue about?- Storch
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what? - are you saying that everybody here is contentious? wtf is that?
you just slam the general population of the bb instead of making a positive contribution? that sounds like something my 98 year old german-polish grandma Busha would say. she's senile.
and where's the linky, anyway? :t
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Choosing to obey of your own free will is an act of love. I believe he needs us just as much as we need him, we are His children. Many humans feel empty until they have children and we where made in His image.
I do not want to Hijack this thread nor disrespect the girl, who was murdered. If you or Dred wish to pursue this, please start a new thread.
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It is rather strange that we hear folks saying Christianity is love and yet members of a sect of it express such hate and judgement about other sects. Exactly how is this an example of love for your brother?
FWIW there were more "inquisitions" than the one that is most often mentioned. In the Christian world one of the most recent one was in the new world. Think Salem for an example, oh and BTW those were not Catholics involved in those witch trials and executions. There is more than enough shame full acts and STUPIDITY in the Christian faith as practiced by so called Christians to go around.
It's rather hypocritical to deride one group of people for hate, then spew hatred towards another group while claiming you have faith in a religion of love.
It brings to mind a couple phrases that I recall having learned. Judge not lest ye be judged. Another one dealt with taking care of the log in your own eye before dealing with the splinter in another's eye.
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I'm wondering if I can just take a pass on getting involved in this thread. There doesn't appear to be anything I could profitably answer, as it seems to be progressing along the following AH BB Standard Operating Procedure lines:
* Contemporary Muslims do something consistent with Sharia that is done all the time, but this time got some mainstream media attention.
* The AH2 BB community is temporarily outraged, some blame Islam
* Others respond this is only a "few fanatics"
* Others respond that the problem is religion
* Others predicatably respond that fundamentalist Christians are just as bad
* Others begin referring to the crusades and the inquisition and the abortion clinic bombings as if they were an ongoing problem (rather than actual on going problems like abortion clinics covering up rape - but I digress)
* Suddenly everyone becomes an expert on Christianity
Can we stop for a moment and ask, what does a young girl being stoned in accordance with Islamic Sharia law have to do with Christianity? I mean I could understand it if someone were trying to contrast Sharia with say John 8:1-11, but as it stands its rather like me responding to a news report that the Chinese Communists tried and executed a political dissident with a diatribe against the moral equivalence of the American Libertarian party or references to the massacre at Wounded Knee or better yet going on a rant about how this is all the fault of party politics and how it is the worst creation man ever came up with.
The fact is that all we will do is complain and shift the blame, but we aren't actually going to do anything to put an end to the practice of honor killing now are we? Because that would involve taking a stand against Sharia law, and while the Western world can pass laws making preaching Romans 1:18-32 a hate crime, presumably because that is safe and makes us feel good about ourselves, we aren't going to do anything that might upset the awful people we are scared to death of. Maybe if we remember not to draw cartoons, or call them violent, and say uniformly nice things they won't riot and kill us. This "honor killing stuff" is all probably because of something we did anyway. So let's kick the dog because we're angry at the bully.
As I said at the beginning, nothing profitable comes to mind... and I've gone and ranted .
- SEAGOON
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Wow-I hate having to follow after Seagoon, because that really should have been the last post of the thread. But, I had something on-topic:
The saddest thing of this whole affair, and I've been reading on this thread since the 5th post, is that when I started looking for this in the main news, It had already been eclipsed by a bunch of election updates, and some piece of crap about Anna Nicole Smith.
I guess it only made the news because with the cell phone video, It qualified as reality TV. Horse****.
It's not because I'm a looky-loo that missed out, do I post a rant...It's that something that should have such impact, should be so quickly consigned to archive tape. I swear, the only thing worse than the principles of Sharia law, would be the principles of today's news media.
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You lot are aware that the incident in question was not conducted by Muslims but by members of a pre-muslim religion: the Yezidis (http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE140292007)?
The excuse given was that the girl had had the temerity to fall in love with a muslim man and was accused of converting to Islam: see http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGMDE140292007
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Can we stop for a moment and ask, what does a young girl being stoned in accordance with Islamic Sharia law have to do with Christianity?
- SEAGOON
Your point is taken however I would still reply that because of our sinful nature there is nothing we as humans do that does not reflect our need for Christ.
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Look beneath the surface of any major organization in this world, religious or laic, and you'll find that some of its adherents are less than sterling characters.
While individual Christian sects conduct protests outside of abortion clinics, and campaign for the election of candidates who advocate a Christian lifestyle, acts of violence against other religions or the ungodly are considered by the vast body of church-goers as aberrations to be condemned.
As to the Inquisition, it was aimed as much at critics of the Catholic Church hierarchy as it was at Jews. The criticism of the Church and its monetary and ethical corruption predates Martin Luther, and has its origins in leaders such as Jon Huss of Bohemia and Jerome of Prague, both of whom were excommunicated as heretics and executed by the Church.
The Protestant Reformation, and the wars fought in northern Europe to protect it from Church retribution were watershed events in Christianity. The failure of the Church to rein in the Protestant movement forced it to look inward and address the faults that had led so many to abandon it. The Counter-Reformation that resulted was the beginning of the end for militant Christianity.
Arising six centuries ago, the Reformation put Christianity on a long, often side-tracked path toward greater tolerance for, and acceptanace of, differing religious beliefs. Individual Christians or Christian sects might differ in attitudes about particular beliefs and attitudes, but the walk down that path continues.
Unfortunately, Islam has not undergone a similar movement. Until it does, the persecution of others of different faiths, the violence, the stoning of women, will continue.
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You lot are aware that the incident in question was not conducted by Muslims but by members of a pre-muslim religion: the Yezidis?
The excuse given was that the girl had had the temerity to fall in love with a muslim man and was accused of converting to Islam: see http://www.amnestyusa.org/document....ENGMDE140292007
I just realized this recently, Pei. I suppose I should apologise to muslims for the error, but they are still implicated in this, and for a couple of reasons i won't be retracting my commments about Islam.
muslims often commit honor killings in addition to their other flavours of murder, and have for centurys.
I read that the actual reason the girl was killed was because the Yezidis thought she had sex with the Muslim boy. It was actually area muslims who assumed that she was killed because she converted to Islam. (no linky but you should be able to find the info easily) BTW, autopsy showed that the girl died a virgin.
I also read an analysis, (again, sorry, no linky) that said that the minority Yezidis, who are pariahs in the region, are extra harsh in carrying out honor killings so as to impress the muslims of the larger culture with their devoutness and high honor - sort of a killing competition to show who has the most honor.
Can you separate Islamic culture from the middle east? i don't think so. the honor killings occur against this backdrop, the Yezidis a subculture of Islamic culture which was born in the sand and covers the region like a blanket. Yezidis live under that blanket. all part of the bad thing that leads these stone age schizophrenics to cruelly kill a girl with stones and then cover up her legs as she lays there because it is "imoral" for a girls's legs to be seen.
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I think we would be just as outraged if a christian religion and it's beliefs caused the stoning...
We aren't because.. well.. there is no christian religion today that does that.
There is no christian religion that has a jihad or says "convert or die"
There are no christian suicide bombers blowing up women and children or flying passenger liners into buildings.
We can say that muslim and christian religions are the same but by doing so we would be saying that we are idiots.
I am no fan of having any church tell me what to do... I am no fan of having you liberal socialists tell me what to do either tho.
I would say that the liberal socialists are like christians and muslims in that they believe that their religion gives them the right to tell people what to do.
lazs
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A few well placed Nukes would settle this once and for all.
One Nuke in Mecca during Ramadam would work.. a second one 3 days later as they walk around the crater.
Screw the Islamic bassturds!... The quiet ones that don't speak out against the violence and the extremist fanatical jihad scum.
Fry them all...give them all martydum... let them put up with 70 Virgins all in the kitchen.
Mac
*How I really feel, film at 11....*
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Originally posted by AWMac
A few well placed Nukes would settle this once and for all.
One Nuke in Mecca during Ramadam would work.. a second one 3 days later as they walk around the crater.
Screw the Islamic bassturds!... The quiet ones that don't speak out against the violence and the extremist fanatical jihad scum.
Fry them all...give them all martydum... let them put up with 70 Virgins all in the kitchen.
Mac
*How I really feel, film at 11....*
What an intelligent thought.
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Originally posted by lazs2
We can say that muslim and christian religions are the same but by doing so we would be saying that we are idiots.
lazs
I think both groups are equally gullible.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Organized Religion is Man's worst invention ever. Been responsible for more pain, suffering, war, death, destruction, and atrocities than any other.
I'm staying agnostic.
Take a leap-of-non-faith for a minute...Imagine(lol) a world where nobody belives in a "God".
I wonder how many people(s) would strap on a suicide bomb or sling an M16 over their shoulder if they knew that if they died,their one and only chance at existance was over?
Religion is nothing more than a ficticious invention of mankind to keep the poor souls on the killing feilds from questioning their leaders...and thus cheapens the sanctity of life.
And don't let your kids watch "Teletubbies"..It will make them homosexual.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Take a leap-of-non-faith for a minute...Imagine(lol) a world where nobody belives in a "God".
no hell below us... above us only sky....
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Take a leap-of-non-faith for a minute...Imagine(lol) a world where nobody belives in a "God".
I wonder how many people(s) would strap on a suicide bomb or sling an M16 over their shoulder if they knew that if they died,their one and only chance at existance was over?
Religion is nothing more than a ficticious invention of mankind to keep the poor souls on the killing feilds from questioning their leaders...and thus cheapens the sanctity of life.
And don't let your kids watch "Teletubbies"..It will make them homosexual.
What difference does anything make if there is no supernatural realm? The universe will eventually expand until even the smallest of particles are light years apart. Believing this what difference does it make how anyone lives their life? I think your "sanctity of life" would mean nothing to those with this belief.
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SirLoin and tedrbr,
You guys sure you want to follow that line of reasoning? The track record of world rulers following atheistic "isms" during the twentieth century isn't very good. In fact, one might say that THEY inflicted more pain and suffering upon humanity than all religious groups combined.
The rejection of religion certainly allowed them to embrace new and revolutionary ethical mores....didn't it?
Regards, Shuckins
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I think both groups are equally gullible.
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You will not find Christians committing suicide for the purpose of killing other non Christians, big difference in the way life is viewed between the two faiths.
Your still making a tremendous error believing the two faiths are equivalent.
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The equivalence lies in the delusion.
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The equivalence lies in the delusion.
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can you prove that eternal life is a delusion, or is it your "opinion" that life ends forever upon death? One could very easily argue that believing that life ends forever upon death, and that no afterlife exists, is in its own right, a religious belief.
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Originally posted by straffo
The inquisition started way before the reform
Which Inquisition? Catholic Church has had a few of them:
Inquisition against the Cathars (a form of Gnostic) was instituted in 1229. Pope Innocent III's Crusade against the Cathars could have taught Hitler a thing or two about how to do genocide right.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
SirLoin and tedrbr,
You guys sure you want to follow that line of reasoning? The track record of world rulers following atheistic "isms" during the twentieth century isn't very good. In fact, one might say that THEY inflicted more pain and suffering upon humanity than all religious groups combined.
The rejection of religion certainly allowed them to embrace new and revolutionary ethical mores....didn't it?
Regards, Shuckins
You equate Agnosticism with Atheism? Hope you didn't pay for that edumacasion.
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smileyletters/links/487321001179619055.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
Agnosticism (from the Greek "a," meaning "without," and Gnosticism or "gnosis," meaning knowledge) means "unknowable," and is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding metaphysics, afterlife or the existence of God, god(s), or deities—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable.
Atheism, defined as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] In its broadest definition, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, sometimes called nontheism.
For purposes of this thread:
I believe in a WIDE separation of church and state. I believe in the individual freedom to worship as you will, so long as you do not adversely effect or harm others, as shown with this Honor Killing episode.
An example: Personally, marriage means little more to me than a contract with the State. A non-issue for me as an Agnostic. But, I have no problem with polygamy (which is common in many religions and societies) so long as all the persons entering into that extended marriage arrangement do so of their own free will. I find it ironic that in the United States, which is the champion of Freedom (like, um, Religion), polygamy is illegal.
I'm also glad that the fallen American military members that follow Wicca can finally use that sign on National Cemetery grave markers.
I am also extremely suspicious of the theological slant that politics and politicians are turning toward in the United States.
Some official local and state government (and some Presidential Candidates and Federal Politicians) rejection of evolution as a prime example. If a PERSON wants to believe in creationism, that's all fine and good (but don't expect me to give your option any weight or trust you with a puppy). But for government officials to make that the official position? What's next: The Earth is Flat? Burning suspected Witches? Public Stoning? Trial by Water (outside of GITMO)?
That the sole issue that really determines whether a Judge gets seated at a Federal Court or the Supreme Court more often than not comes down to their view on Roe vs Wade? All the Constitutional Issues that can come before those courts, and that's the only one that is truly make or break??
But my personal views are still that the world's organized religions have done far more harm than good throughout the ages. Not so much the religions in of themselves, but what Man does with them.
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America was founded on Christianity, but our Founding Fathers feared a State Church.
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Here tedr....let me loan you my glasses....so you can reread my post. I addressed it to two people...not just to you. It's main puprpose was to take you to task on your contention that organized religion was the greatest evil ever devised by man, not to dispute the differences between an atheist, ala E.K. Horbeck, and an agnostic, ala Henry Drummond.
Your conclusion that the world's religions have done far more harm than good is purely subjective, and spurious at best. Religious groups such as the Quakers, played a leading role in the Abolitionist movement, in founding the first schools for blacks, in founding the Red Cross, in the modern civil rights movement (Read a history of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference), in establishing faith-based social out-reach programs, in establishing orphanages and shelters for battered women, in donating time and money for the relief of victims of natural disasters (a vast number of churches in Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama etc. sent volunteers to help the Katrina victims), and the Southern Tenant Farmer's Union.
There are thousands more examples...rather inconventient truths which rebut your original point.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Yeager
can you prove that eternal life is a delusion, or is it your "opinion" that life ends forever upon death? One could very easily argue that believing that life ends forever upon death, and that no afterlife exists, is in its own right, a religious belief.
No, I cannot prove eternal life is a delusion. Nor can you prove that Unicorns don't exist.
Yes, it is my opinion that an individual's life ends forever upon death. I have yet to meet anyone that has come back from the dead.
Do you believe in Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hestia, Hera, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Aphrodite, Hermes, Artemis, Hephaestus, Thor, Ra or any of the ancient deities? I bet not. You are what we like to call a closet atheist. All you have to do is be honest and move a couple gods farther up the chain:aok
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Hello Pei,
Originally posted by Pei
You lot are aware that the incident in question was not conducted by Muslims but by members of a pre-muslim religion: the Yezidis (http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE140292007)?
The excuse given was that the girl had had the temerity to fall in love with a muslim man and was accused of converting to Islam: see http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGMDE140292007
My sincere apologies. To tell the truth, I took it at face value that what was being reported here - that it was a Muslim honor killing - was true when I responded. I've been desperately sick for the last few days and I haven't done much news watching or reading. I'll also admit that I've reached a certain level of "horror fatigue" lately and the idea of searching for a video of a young girl being stoned to death by her relatives was more than I could bear. Anyway, I got lazy and responded to what was being said rather than doing the fact checking myself, and for that I'm sorry.
As you pointed out, the killers were Yazidis, a relatively tiny segregationist religious sect whose relationship to the Muslims can be roughly analogized by comparing the relationship of Sikhs to Hindus. In any event, they were upset about what they thought was a sexual relationship outside the Yazidi community, and the Yazidis share the same view of "honor killing" for illicit sexual relationships that Shi'ites and Sunnis in the region do. In response, to the killing, Sunni Muslims stopped a bus and took 23 Yazidis off and executed them.
My original point, however, still stands. Honor killings are a dime a dozen in the region and Islamic countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia still stone as a legislative punishment for Adultery. So how is it just to heap blame on Fundamentalist Christianity or fundamentalists like myself, when demonstrably we do not practice honor killing or stoning for adultery and who when martyred (as was the case with the three Christian workers in Turkey recently) do not spawn worldwide riots or seek out 23 Muslims and kill them in revenge killings. Rather the response, for instance, to the killings in Turkey has not been revenge or terrorism but calls to pray for the killers.
I might also add that some of the posts disregarding the evil present in the heart of every natural man and lauding a peaceful vision of a godless society have been what I can only describe as flights into fantasy-land. When one considers the brutality of the officially atheistic Chinese Communists towards Christian and Falun-Gong prisoners up to and including harvesting organs from living political prisoners and selling them on the black market, or the extreme brutality practiced in officially atheistic regimes such as Enver Hoxa's Albania or Ceausescu's Romania (see Wurmbrand's classic Tortured for Christ (http://www.amazon.com/Tortured-Christ-Richard-Wurmbrand/dp/0882643266) for a dramatic practical differences between evangelical Christianity and atheistic communism) one can immediately see that the problem is the fallen and sinful nature of humanity and not the presence of religion. Oh and incidentally, having spent time visiting jails, I can tell you that its not the atheists that you want to find yourself locked up with.
I had lunch a couple of weeks back with a guy who was converted in prison and asked him his story. He got busted for dealing Cocaine and spent time in various federal pens. When he got in an older prisoner told him to seek out the evangelicals, telling him that while he might find their attempts to convert him to be irritating, they are not going to stick a shank in you, steal your food, or make shower-time a dreadful experience. Eventually, their witness and their actions (one story of kindness in particular that would take to long to relate) and most importantly the work of the Holy Spirit won him over to Christ.
In any event guys, while there are many things I can do, I cannot "taste and see that the Lord is good" (Psalm 34:8) for you. I spent many years as a pagan, and over a decade as an evangelical Christian, it was not in my time as a pagan that I found or showed kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another and I certainly did not love my enemies and live for others as a pagan, neither did I find that or anything approaching forgiveness and peace in my wanderings in the occult and other world religions.
Anway, speaking of serving others, if I don't get my extremely sick frame into bed and get some serious sleep I'm going to do a very poor job of doing that tomorrow morning. Hope those of you who observe it have a blessed Lord's day - remember to keep Doob's wife in your prayers.
- SEAGOON
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That was really really disgusting to see. Those people do not deserve a free society untill they learn to behave like humans.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Which Inquisition? Catholic Church has had a few of them:
Inquisition against the Cathars (a form of Gnostic) was instituted in 1229. Pope Innocent III's Crusade against the Cathars could have taught Hitler a thing or two about how to do genocide right.
This one precisely , I used to live close to Montségur :)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Here tedr....let me loan you my glasses....so you can reread my post. I addressed it to two people...not just to you. It's main puprpose was to take you to task on your contention that organized religion was the greatest evil ever devised by man, not to dispute the differences between an atheist, ala E.K. Horbeck, and an agnostic, ala Henry Drummond.
I take it you mean Hitler (who was big into the Occult, as was many of his upper level henchmen, so I suppose he was more a Pagan than atheist) and Stalin (who was a paranoid), both of whom worked to make The State revered by their citizens? Maybe even the persecution of Christians by Asian Communists nations?
Your conclusion that the world's religions have done far more harm than good is purely subjective, and spurious at best. Religious groups such as the Quakers, played a leading role in the Abolitionist movement, in founding the first schools for blacks, in founding the Red Cross, in the modern civil rights movement (Read a history of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference), in establishing faith-based social out-reach programs, in establishing orphanages and shelters for battered women, in donating time and money for the relief of victims of natural disasters (a vast number of churches in Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama etc. sent volunteers to help the Katrina victims), and the Southern Tenant Farmer's Union.
There are thousands more examples...rather inconventient truths which rebut your original point.
Regards, Shuckins
Religion at the individual level or local level is usually fine (usually, there are exceptions here as well). Neighbors helping neighbors and personal beliefs all fine and good.
And yes, you can put forth many fine examples of religious organizations doing good, especially at the lower local level if you want to go for sheer numbers for examples.
Just as I can recite the various and numerous problems at the upper end of the spectrum: the numerous Crusades and Inquisitions, the atrocities committed by spreading Christianity by the sword throughout the Age of Exploration and Colonial Age, of the Vatican and Catholic Church smuggling Nazi's out of Germany at the end of WWII (often in exchange for war booty from conquered people and holocaust victims), of the persecution of the Jews, Cathars, and Mormons, not to mention the Knights Templar (in order to seize their assets more than any other reason), or the strife between the Hindus and Buddhists through history, or between the Muslims and everyone they've come in contact with for over 400 years. The Temperance movement had it's roots in religion, and the resulting years of Prohibition and illicit alcohol economy led to the empowerment of Organized Crime in the United States that exists to this day. "Ethnic cleansing" as seen in the Balkans and Africa. Religious strife in Ireland. Salem Witch Hunts. It goes on and on.
As much as you can extol the virtues of religion (btw, all religion, or just certain ones?) I can point out the vices.
When religion grows beyond a certain level, you get the conflict of serving God and Money and Personal Power. Even the Red Cross you have mentioned has been hit by controversy over the years over corruption. How many scandals have hit various churches over the years? How often has religion been perverted by men? How many crimes committed "in God's name"? The old saying "Power corrupts...." lends itself well to religion in practice and in history.
What bothers me is the growing trend to bring religion into politics in the United States. I've see first hand what that can eventually lead to for a country as an end result. I believe in freedom of religion (more freedom in some cases than is actually currently allowed by law in America) --- but also the WIDE separation of Church and State. There seems to be a desire by many to turn the United States of America into a quasi-theological state.
And when the written word taken from the Bible, in a country that supposedly supports freedom of ALL religions, starts to trump imperical scientific evidence in secular official policy and official views of its politicians, then I grow concerned (this refers to evolution in general, human evolution in particular, and the geological history of the Earth, among some issues).
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I'm all for separation of church and state. I'm even more for separation of individual liberty and state and I think we're in far greater danger of encroachment by the federal government into our personal lives than we are by the church.
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as much as i dislike to, sometimes i am forced to agree with tedrbr.
:O
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It's not "culture."
It's evil.
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I can not think of any group.. not religious or political who I would want to have too much power over my life.
I consider avowed athiests a group and a religion.
lazs