Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on June 17, 2001, 01:30:00 PM
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why is this crutch needed in...
nevermind
add this in to the pile of unrealism with inflight dar, Friend/Foe identification dar, sector bars, range icons, autopilot/trim on a/c not equiped and unrealistic head movement limitations.
AH... its a ww3 sim w 1940's aircraft
[ 06-17-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Actually, I feel that the WW2Online rear view is unrealisticly limited.
AH may be too generous, but I think it is closer to reality than the views offered in WW2Online.
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Where does the
We're not happy until YOU'RE not happy!
club meet nowadays?
...oh, wait... I figured it out myself!
:D
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Hey Cit take your WW2online flag and wave it somewhere else. One of the main thing i love about aces high is the view system. Most games are unrealistically limiting. Granted aces may give you a little too much in the six view, but its the closest to reality and the most intuitive view system ever made for any game.
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Um.....now come on, you gotta agree that the WW2OL view system TOTALLY SUCKS!
Snap views only? Gimme a break......specially how ya cant map views to the PoV hat on a PP2 in WW2OL yet......
Until they gimme a pan view I aint going over. Tell me what is even slightly realistic about the keyboard deciding where it wants me to look? *I* want direct control over where I look, pan view not bleedin snap.
The only thing wrong (well, not wrong but not as good as it could be) with the AH view system is that the speed of pan is not selectable by the pilot.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[ 06-17-2001: Message edited by: Swoop ]
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The WW2OL view setup is a bit limited. The problem is it doesn't recognize the pilot's ability to tilt his head and shoulders sideways and doesnt account for peripheral vision. The AH view setup is better in this regard but some of the customized view setups are extreme and the "linda blair" straight 6 view is simply not allowed by human anatomy. You simply cannot turn your eyes fully around 180 degress while sitting down in a chair. You do have decent peripheral vision of your 6oc if you tilt your head and shoulders but its not as good as what AH gives, plus there is no armour plate behind your head. All in all I belive the AH view setup is the best of all the sims ive played. But the 100% 180 degree 6 view and some of the more extreme customizable views could be looked over in the future.
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Toad - please go to the WW2OL official forum (www.playnet.com), particularly the 'Allies' sub-forum.
There you'll find a thread asking people to be 'named and shamed' for doing 'uncooperative acts'.
A thread about 'Official' directions for using the radio, which is... err... anything but official.
And you thought the 'Play the game my way!' crowd was bad over here!! :D
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Dowding,
It's probably a bit premature to say so but it seems to me that a significant part of the AH "Play my way" crowd went there.
:D
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gunslayer you are spot on about the veiw system :D
ive never seen better and how many games do you all try now, find in minutes you cant seem to see as well as AH, and as a result stop liking or playing it?
most of my sims got this treatment :D
BTW my veiw is the bickering about WW2ol posts is a bit childish.WW2ol is a similar product and will be discussed whether you like it or not.Seems very silly to try to ban its mention.
true maybe ask them to take it to the o club?
but dont tell legitimate customers of AH they arent allowed to discuss things of interest in bulletin board which is essentially 'all of ours' .
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I like the views as they are now.
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As we have a flat view screen, no peripheral vision, and no mirrors, I think the AH view system is a perfect compromise.
The stories always tell of the pilot checking his six by looking in the mirror.
Rust
(http://www.rocketace.net/rust.jpg)
The Free French Ait Force
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Has anyone been doing barrel rools and GAINED alt in wwiiol yet? geez.. I keep pulling and pulling and just raping 109s
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Take your head and turn it 90 degrees to the left of center. Then, turn your eyes as far left as they can go. Through the miracle known as peripheral vision, you actually can see behind you without literally turning your head all the way around Linda Blair-style.
Aces High (and WW2OL, and AW, etc etc)inhibit peripheral vision because each snap view represents a smaller range of degrees than we would ordinarily be capable of seeing. So instead of thinking that the six view literally represents a complete 180-degree head turn, see it instead as a partial head turn with eye movement and peripheral vision taken into account.
In that light, I'm incredibly frustrated with WW2OL's unrealistic restriction on checking six.
-- Todd/DMF
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I agre with DMF and others assesement :)
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I don't like the WW2 Online view 6 view. I only have a 4-way hat, and it doesn't have stick sets. I've gotten around it by having the Up views set to Spacebar+Hatswitch, but I don't like taking my hand off the throttle to do it.
That, and I have to have more keys mapped so I can look left back and right back.
Aces High might have the 6 view, but it is easier to use with less sophisticated joysticks.
Hans.
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Me thinks somebody has taken the worm and is now running that line to the far end of a deeeep lake... :)
xBAT
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"Take your head and turn it 90 degrees to the left of center. Then, turn your eyes as far left as they can go. Through the miracle known as peripheral vision, you actually can see behind you without literally turning your head all the way around Linda Blair-style."
Add in that WWII piltos had shoulder movement and they could move thier torso too.
The WW2O six view implementation is about as bogus a feature as I've seen anywhere. Same with thier cockpit gauge view. It's obvious a n artificial gameplay crutch to suit the B&Z types which... surprise, surprise, is what most of the CRS folks were when they were players.
If you fly with a wingy and stay high and fast you're untouchable as most opponants can't see you due to the artificial "blind" imposed on them.
On the other hand a "Linda Blair" view is just as bad. Take up a 109 or P-47D11 in AH and there is no such thing. But I do think you should not be able to go from a 7 view straight over to a 5 view without having come all the way around front first.
-Westy
[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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WWIIOnline does the realism of disallowing the 6 view (at this point how do we know they didn't just run out of time to put it in and made that story up? :)), and even to model the rear view mirror, but not make it work? :rolleyes:
Yeah, you see me practically standing in line for that kind of realism.
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LOL... "realism" for some guys is to substitute skill for sneaking up in a fast plane. If they can't do that then the views are "unrealistic". forget that every fact contradicts their idea of the "no view six view".
My uncle in law flew Hellcats off carriers. He gave me the strangest look when I asked him if he could see behind him in the Hellcat (one of the more restrictive planes) "you just turned around and looked. There was no problem seeing behind you". Ask any pilot at an airshow and they will tell you that it is easy to see the rear stabilizers of Corsairs. It is easier to see with a bubble top but that's all, just easier.
The no six view morons must have neck injuries and are sure to be a menace in cars. Anyone advocating no six view should not be allowed to drive. The evidence is overwhelming that six views like WB and WWII online are simply wrong and most likely exist due to lack of programing ability and laziness not, any sort of nod to "realism". AH may be too easy to look around in but... It has no rear view mirrors or peripheral vision so it's probly a wash. Still head and shoulders above anything else out there.
lazs
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I'll post my CH Pro Throttle USB review in the hardware forum but here's the view part. You want realistic views? Grab you a the new throttle and map your pan views to the mini joystick on the throttle. Your view movement is a full 360 degree circle but you have to go right to get the right back view if you looked back by looking left. You want to just peek down a hair to check a gauge you can't see in the normal front view, no problem. You want to look up, front, left? Again a small movement with your thumb will do it for you. No more multiple keypresses to get it done. This view system rocks! It will take some time to get used to it but I think it is really worth it. FWIW I have my head movement keys mapped to the 8-way hat right behind the view stick. Only gripe is that the F8 pan mode can't be chosen as a default and I have to switch for each view change.
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"Grab you a the new throttle and map your pan views to the mini joystick on the throttle"
THAT was one of the first thoughts and wonders about the new USB PRo-Throttle I had a year ago. Glad to hear that it rocks SB. Thanks!
-Westy
[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Couldn't say that WWII OL's rear view is that much realistic..
but you cant see directly to your high 6, which I think is realistic.
Could be perhaps bit more leaning allowed for 6 view.
but then again, AH has too generous like on said.
In air combat of WWII OL, its fun when you have to be very close to hit something and people can lose you in the terrain (even though that anti-aircraft roundel, but that fades slowly so it doesnt help that much.. and its useful when it becomes to low FPS and can't track target that well)
Now we just have to wait they get the FM tweaked a little more.
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I guess not "everyone loves the ww2online lack of six view" huh?
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Talking about realism. I know there are a lot of real pilots here. How many of you, tightly tied in your belts, are able to check easily at 5 or 7 o clock? I'm talking about aerobatics not cross-country flying ;)
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I can gatt ..
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How many real pilots have a 90 degree field of view packed into a 17" square, no peripheral vision, and no depth perception?
Hell, you would never be alowed to pilot a plane in "real life" if your sight was as restricted as what we have in these "sims". The view system has to be much more flexible than your head positions in "real life" to make up for the poor excuse for eyeballs that we have to deal with in a computer monitor.
Restricting the viewing system too much is far more "un realistic" than the awesome flexible system we have in AH now. The AH view system is flexible, configurable, and demonstrates the advantages and disadvatages of the various planes in terms of how easy it was to see out of them. That really is the point... to have the plane's attributes in terms of vision restrictions matter in the game.
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:::chuckles::: Now that Ram has left for WWII Online, I guess we'll have start having "When is Citabria going to have his next embolism" pools.
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I can do it pretty easy in a Vultee BT-13 Gat. I'd say that has a cockpit/canopy that's fairly representative of WW2 single engine aircraft.
The only thing that really makes looking around hard is negative G. :D The positives (withing reason)aren't a major problem.
BTW, Leph, that is an excellent summary.
[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Gatt wrote:
How many of you, tightly tied in your belts, are able to check easily at 5 or 7 o clock?
Ummm I did.
In fact thats where you are the most misinformed. When I took my aerobatic AT6 Texan flight I left my harness what I felt was "very loose", but the instructor pilot told me that I had it "too tight".
And I could still very easily check my six under up too 5 G's with very little effort.
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
How many real pilots have a 90 degree field of view packed into a 17" square, no peripheral vision, and no depth perception?
Hell, you would never be alowed to pilot a plane in "real life" if your sight was as restricted as what we have in these "sims". The view system has to be much more flexible than your head positions in "real life" to make up for the poor excuse for eyeballs that we have to deal with in a computer monitor.
Restricting the viewing system too much is far more "un realistic" than the awesome flexible system we have in AH now. The AH view system is flexible, configurable, and demonstrates the advantages and disadvatages of the various planes in terms of how easy it was to see out of them. That really is the point... to have the plane's attributes in terms of vision restrictions matter in the game.
Absolutely the way I see it as well, too much realism on a 2D monitor takes the fun out of it, unless you LIKE having no fight, and simly being an alt monkey until a hapless victim comes by and doesn't see you...some like it like that, right Cita? ;)
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"How many of you, tightly tied in your belts"
Never saw a pilot with a belt across his neck or forehead.
Westy
p.s. and Fishu made a good observation
[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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From hazed..
'ive never seen better and how many games do you all try now, find in minutes you cant seem to see as well as AH, and as a result stop liking or playing it?
most of my sims got this treatment "
ex-bloody-actly
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Well I play WWIIOL alot and I can tell you that at present the 6 view is NOT my problem, I have to be able to FLY first to have it be a problem and with the current FPS issues flying is NOT an option. AH at least is flyable and from what I have found it is the best out here so far (I even took out a WB account and have found it to be not acceptable and will canceling that account)
BigJim :rolleyes:
[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: BigJim ]
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Instead of removing the 180 view, they could have added a 160 (and 200 view). this would simulate just about how far your head and shoulders could turn in a strapped seat, and you'd get "peripheral vision" covering your 6. The restrictions would be the plane's headrest and airframe, not some artificial "you can't turn your head more than 135 degrees" when we've got accounts from real life pilots that say they can check their own 6's.
As for AH... I've only used the default snap views. I've never used the pan mode, or padlock mode. *shrugs* guess I'll try out pan mode one day.
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Peripheral vision is well...peripheral. Exactly how well can you see with it. I did the 'shoulders against the chair' test. Sure, I could see behind me. But what I could see, for about 60 degrees, was so blurry I could hardly make anything out.
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Thrawn,
A sholders against the chair test is not representative of what WWII pilots were dealing with.
The shoulder straps were loose so that they could twist their shoulders to look behind them, e.g. check 6.
It is much better to avoid needing tight shoulder restraints (needed when you crash land an aircraft) by being able to see your opponent than to be belted in so tight that he shoots you down.
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What Karnak said.
It's the lap-strap that holds you in the seat while you're maneuvering..even upside down you feel the pressure far more on the lap than shoulders.
So your butt is in the seat, on hand on the stick, other on the throttle...and those won't pull out of the airplane... so you're in a "three-point" configuration.
The shoulder strap doesn't have to be locked down tight.
In fact, I think you'll find in MOST aircraft, particularly the US anyway, that the shoulder straps have a two postion lock switch. I'd have to check to be 100% positive.
One is an inertia reel that allows movement unless under sudden g... like your car works... and the other position locks it tight where it is.<EDIT> Well, it locks the inertia reel, allowing the shoulder belts to retract but not extend any further.
[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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For all you people who think pilots couldn't move: Please explain why the British changed the flat sided canopies on the Spit Is to the bulged canopies, and why similarly bulged canopies were added to F4Us, 109s, 190s, P51s etc... The Joint Fighter converence report talks quite a bit about the importance of a bulged canopy so that the pilot can make use of the extra room for all around visibility.
Hooligan
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It's all about the aim of the sim.
AH and WW2OL do both have their merits of course. I see it as:
WW2OL: aim is to have realistic air cambat which means 80% of kills by surprice and fights are relatively easy to disengage. Unfortunately lack of ANY ground info makes finding the cons toejamty.
AH: aim is to generate interesting air combats where the pilot have very much info about enemy and thus makes fighting more about monouvers and shooting skill.
There is no doubt WW2OL is more realistic in many ways. More fun? Well depends on pilot.
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Originally posted by Westy MOL:
"But I do think you should not be able to go from a 7 view straight over to a 5 view without having come all the way around front first.[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
Agreed
Tilt
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janjan... "80%" kills by guys you never seen means that in melees you would get shot down because you were target fixated as well as being assleep at the switch. We have the former right now in AH... many report never seeing the plane that got em. but...
People got surprised because they weren't looking around not.... because they couldn't look around. You want realistic??? Make the AH flights 4-6 hours with very little chance of ever seeing an enemy and I guarenttee that AH would then duplicate the "surprise" factor. We are very aware because we have very short sorties with a lot of planes around. We are allways close to a fight and hyper allert.
Not having a six view is the result of poor/incomplete game and/or laziness on the part of the game developer. It has nothing whatsoever to do with realism. If the game doesn't have a six view it's because the game isn't finished or the programers are stumped.
WB has promised to fix their six views for years.
lazs
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Many moons ago I spent a bit of time in Citabria's, used to rack up some free PIC time towing gliders, spent more time looking back than forward, didnt seem to be a problem.
Shamus
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Toad, Karnak, thanks for enlightening me.
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Ya JanJan, I love ww2OL's majic compass and attitude indicator. That's really realistic. Its also realistic that your eyeball obviously can only view a 1" by 1" square of a map at once and never view the whole map. Oh and in WW2, the real thing, every time someone went in for a kill they could only see at 3 FPS i guess too. If you want a ground sim you got it in WW2 online. As far as airplanes go its a steaming pile of crap.
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Damn you,
Where did I say that I prefer WW2OL better than AH? But I'm still sure it is (when the game works) nearer to realism. It definitely needs some ground guidance to be enyouable. The frustration level is too high otherwise (just reading about Finnish Morane-Saulnier pilots in winter war as they had no radio...it feel just the same in ww2OL).
However, I'm also sure that in AH you would definitely get better dogfights...till the death. Realistic? Not really. Nice and thrilling? Sure.