Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Citabria on May 19, 2007, 02:03:40 PM
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is 300-400 points of deviation normal for analog signals of CH gear?
ie a fluctuation from 32100 to 32500?
my ch rudders did it and my brand new CH fighterstick does it its like flying in turbulence all the time.
x52 did it but not as bad as this CH gear does.
what gives?
this is supposed to be the best gear made and its crap
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weird.. my CH pedals are pretty steady, really happy w/ them
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obvious suggestion i know, but you try calibrating in control panel first then in game? helps a little my saitek cyborg twisty.
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same here with the Fighterstick, Fester.
The rest of the CH gear doesnt have the problem though, especially the pedals have a very stable readout.
Even with problem the CH Joystick is better than the X45 and Cougar for me.
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yeah its better than saitek sure but saitek is garbage.
it still not as good as the discontinued sidewinder sticks
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I have to calibrate my x45 every time I start the game. Then I have to go back and do my x-axis individually. Its all over the place if I don't.
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Try them on a different computer. I actually have some usb ports that make everything jumpy and some where everything is smooth all on the same machine. Go figure.
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Increase your deadband.......its a crutch to be sure......but may fix your problem temporarily.
CFYA
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problem isnt the deadband..
its when the stick is deflected.
neither dampening or deadband affect this.
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Ahhhh......was thinkin it was just when the stick was in the neutral position.
Good luck with that ......
Let us know what you find.
RYan
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I was having those problems too I switched the usb port and they went away.
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Fester ,see ur post in hardware forum.
"fluctuation from 32100 to 32500" this is common and needs alittle dampaning to calm down .
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I feel your pain Fester. My CH Combatstick 568 has the same problem. My Y axis fluctuates a bit.
Get this:
When I use my Y and X axis, my Z axis even jumps with it (Throttle). It's like something inside is not right. When I move just my stick and not my throttle, my throttle should have no fluctuating outputs.
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Originally posted by Citabria
yeah its better than saitek sure but saitek is garbage.
it still not as good as the discontinued sidewinder sticks
oh I love my sidewinder stick. I have the Force Feedback 2 and I dunno what I'll do if it ever breaks.
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Originally posted by crockett
oh I love my sidewinder stick. I have the Force Feedback 2 and I dunno what I'll do if it ever breaks.
you will be in the world of joystick hell that I am in.
I had the FF2 and it was the most realistic resisitance with its motors set to center only and the most precise stick of them all. none of this analog fluctuation BS.
WTF is wrong with this industry? the only decent sticks are discontinued and no one is stepping up to make anything optical or digital its all a bunch of crappy analog signal garbage.
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Cit --
I had that problem develop on my 13 month old CH rudders, and it wasn't a small fluctuation. I'd see both centering drift of several hundred points, and lots of spiking. (My X52 has been rock solid...go figure.) Anyway, one really good thing about the CH stuff is that the potentiometers can be purchased separately for $5 or so.
I didnt even do that -- I opened up the pedals, and switched the potentiometer for the brake with the one for the sliding rudder input. Since the brake "centers" with the pot at full deflection, it completely avoids the defective center region. And the pot from the brake centers just fine.
Though I'd never claim to be an expert, I'd bet you're looking at a pot on the way out.
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If MS started building the Sidewinder2 ffb again and charged 500 bucks for them...Id buy 3.
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i was so happy when my ch stick showed up in the mail...after a week it now holds up books on the top shelf.....i use the logicrap, its great for 3 months or so
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Are you telling us the CH stuff is for sale?
How much ya wanting. seein as how bad they are?????
Thanks
Ren
The Damned
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Originally posted by FiLtH
If MS started building the Sidewinder2 ffb again and charged 500 bucks for them...Id buy 3.
Yea it's strange the one thing M$ actually got right, they stopped producing. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Xbox and trying to push all their gaming product towards Xbox sales.
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i got CH pedels off Ebay used em for a week then sold them back on Ebay...now i use a $20 twist stick....woot
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Originally posted by FiLtH
If MS started building the Sidewinder2 ffb again and charged 500 bucks for them...Id buy 3.
this was the best stick ever made
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Originally posted by Citabria
you will be in the world of joystick hell that I am in.
I had the FF2 and it was the most realistic resisitance with its motors set to center only and the most precise stick of them all. none of this analog fluctuation BS.
WTF is wrong with this industry? the only decent sticks are discontinued and no one is stepping up to make anything optical or digital its all a bunch of crappy analog signal garbage.
Are you using the old game port CH gear or USB? If you're using the legacy game port gear, make sure that you run CHJOY which will allow you to fine tune the potentiometers and then calibrate the stick in Windows.
If you're using a USB port, make sure the hub you have them connected too is powered. CH gear do not like unpowered USB hubs.
If you still get spikes on full deflection, then you should try cleaning the contacts on the potentiometers.
If you still get spikes after doing the above then most likely you received a stick with a bad potentiometer. I'd then contact CH support and send in the gear for them to fix or replace.
ack-ack
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After 5 years, my MS sidewinder Precision Pro 2 still works except for the hat switch. It glitches all the time, but for over a year, I've used TrackIR so it isn't a problem. :)
Right now my CH pedals spike whenever I use them. I'm getting the "do not move your controls so rapidly" message everyday. Grrr... I'm going to try to open them up and clean them. I've had them for about 13 months now. Spiking on the ch pedals just started a week ago. If I get off my arse, I'd try to come up with a way to replace my pots with optical sensors.
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Originally posted by crockett
oh I love my sidewinder stick. I have the Force Feedback 2 and I dunno what I'll do if it ever breaks.
you do what i did and buy a $30 saitek and cry yourself to sleep at nights.
worst part is my 9yo sidewinder 3D pro still works fine but i dont have a gameport soundcard.
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If you take the CH pedals apart, pay very close attention to where everything is. I've only had to clean mine twice in six years.
The only CH product I ever had problems with (I have the Fighter Stick, Throttle, Pedals and MFP) was a Pro Throttle but I have not had any problems with it's replacement.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are you using the old game port CH gear or USB? If you're using the legacy game port gear, make sure that you run CHJOY which will allow you to fine tune the potentiometers and then calibrate the stick in Windows.
If you're using a USB port, make sure the hub you have them connected too is powered. CH gear do not like unpowered USB hubs.
If you still get spikes on full deflection, then you should try cleaning the contacts on the potentiometers.
If you still get spikes after doing the above then most likely you received a stick with a bad potentiometer. I'd then contact CH support and send in the gear for them to fix or replace.
ack-ack
using new USB versions of pedals and fighterstick with an x45 throttle.
can anyone give me some Aces High Deviation numbers? I tend to see from 31900 to 32500 ie a 300-600 point fluctuation. is this what you see on the analog readout for X or Y axis ack ack?
I would just like to be sure they aren't all this bad before I send it back and get back the same lousy fluctuations in a nother new stick.
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and they are all hookedup to the motherboard usb ports
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I have set of USB CH ( pedals, throttle, stick) two years. Had to calibrate them once 2 years ago, never did it again. All of them are steady like a rock.
Something is wrong with your hardware.
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I bought CH pedals about 6 months ago, and they've been extremely steady and accurate.
Just last month I bought the CH Fighterstick, and immediately upon using it I found that the X axis calibration was off by a considerable amount.
I sent it back and they overnighted a new one to me for free, which worked great.
My theory is they get damaged in shipping, because I can't imagine that many bad sticks/gear being shipped out at about $150 a pop.
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I had the same problem. CH will tell you to calibrate using their software because it is "more accurate," whatever that means. It is necessary for MS FSX, though. I don't know why that is.
A second set worked fine calibrating in AH, of course the toe brakes on them went south in the standard two weeks. I had to trick the distributor into getting a replacement set, though.
I suppose we all have different impressions of CH based on our own experience. I've been through two pedals, 2 throttles and on my 3rd stick - and none of them work properly, even now.
CH does have an image of providing good customer service in the US. If I buy another set, I'll probably end up with yours after you've sent them back. :D
It appears to me that all those returned products get boxed up and shipped overseas, as is, since the warranty is shorter and it's cheaper to buy a new controller than to ship them back for warranty work.
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Originally posted by Citabria
and they are all hookedup to the motherboard usb ports
I had the same issues with a fighterstick , i tried a powered usb hub , and different usb /pci add in card , nothing worked . I bought a MSPP2 off ebay .
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I would be very annoyed if I found out that a product I bought 'new' was a return from another country.
As a matter of fact, I'd go a on crusade against the company and boicott them.
Surely that's against the law?
If a product is sold as 'new' it should be in brand new condition... not a re-package return...?
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Originally posted by Citabria
using new USB versions of pedals and fighterstick with an x45 throttle.
can anyone give me some Aces High Deviation numbers? I tend to see from 31900 to 32500 ie a 300-600 point fluctuation. is this what you see on the analog readout for X or Y axis ack ack?
I would just like to be sure they aren't all this bad before I send it back and get back the same lousy fluctuations in a nother new stick.
I've 0 (zero) for X and Y, try to plug your stick on a powered hub.
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Fester, I see you posted on ch-hanger, which was going to be my suggestion.
Similiar issues have been reportedly fixed with a power supply replacement in the past. (Supposedly, the computer power supply is defective or at or near max draw, which causes power fluctuations to the USB ports which in turn power the CH devices. This flakey power causes the pot readings to fluctuate as well, as they are essentially voltage dividers - and if you divide a fluctuating value you get a fluctuating result.)
Frankly though, I'd give worlds to have my Logitech Wingman Force back. It was truly the most realistic stick I've ever owned, although even then Logitech had begun to implement the 1/2 gymal design that made their newer sticks utter garbage.
As much as I loved my MSFF stick with the Simped pedal mod (not the one Simpeds sold, but my own) , having the hat switches go every six months just got to be too much to deal with.
I swear to *** someday I'm going to sit down with the power saw, drill press and and lathe and build one that's meant to last a life time. In the meantime, the CH stuff seems to be the best of what's available. Not that mine have been trouble free, either.
EDIT -> PS. Mine (once I performed the fixups I described on CH-Hanger) are perfectly stable in both the Control manager, and in AH. In Control Manager, full deflection is 0 and 255 on all axis, and center is exactly 127.
In AH, full deflection is 0 or 255 at one end and 65535 at the other on all Axys, and center is 32767.
I do use Control Manager and map all 3 devices into 1 control, so that I can still use it as a single device for those games that support only one, not that I play them any more (WB 2.77, Mechwarrier).
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Mine are rock solid too. Not sure of the numbers, as I'm at work right now, if I remember I'll check when I get home. Only time I had trouble with my CH stuff was when I was using old analog stuff. When I switched MBs the new one didn't supply enough voltage through the DIN plug the keyboard,stick and throttle "keyboard emulation" ran through.
Bought new USB stuff (used old analog pedals for 6 months to save up some money for them) run them all through a powered Belkin USB hub. Solid as a rock.
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Originally posted by wooly15
I have to calibrate my x45 every time I start the game. Then I have to go back and do my x-axis individually. Its all over the place if I don't.
Only starting to have that problem. it seems you broke your stick in quicker than i did or you just broke it?
:lol
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
you do what i did and buy a $30 saitek and cry yourself to sleep at nights.
worst part is my 9yo sidewinder 3D pro still works fine but i dont have a gameport soundcard.
I used to have a saitek 3d cyborg or what ever they call it, back when I played Mech Warriors 2 I think it was.
Man I ended up breaking the trigger and the throttle because there was no reinforcement to them so they both snapped. I hope my sidewinder nevers dies I'll :cry if I have to use a saiteck again.
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The other limitation with the 3D pro is that that it only has a 4 way hat, unless you use the MS software which (at least used to ) suck raw sewage in a big way, because you couldn't use it with rudder pedals (as a single device).
But I've never had another stick that was even remotely as precise as the all-optical 3D pro.
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Originally posted by Citabria
this was the best stick ever made
I have one taking up space in my drawer. It's OK but no separate throttle.
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I get a couple or three hundred of variation on my X and Y axis, about 100 on rudder but this info is probably not the best to rely on. My equipment is very old analog stuff going into a gameport driver. I did replaced the rudder pot about a year back and have two spares which will be going into the stick soon. If you do open it up, check the connector crimps and make sure they are tight and the wire paths are secure so they don't meander around. Common sense stuff there.
All in all Citibria I suppose you can disregard my post and results. For a few minutes I just wanted to hear the clickity sound my keyboard makes when I type.
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Originally posted by Rolex
CH does have an image of providing good customer service in the US. If I buy another set, I'll probably end up with yours after you've sent them back. :D
It appears to me that all those returned products get boxed up and shipped overseas, as is, since the warranty is shorter and it's cheaper to buy a new controller than to ship them back for warranty work.
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
Fester/Citbaria your answer is waiting for you at the Hangar. Here is the link... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630
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BUSTED!!!:D
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Are you telling us the CH stuff is for sale?
How much ya wanting. seein as how bad they are?????
Thanks
Ren
The Damned
I notice that after two pages of some of the most uninformed nonsense I've read on these boards in a while that he hasn't taken you up on your offer.
Hmmm, maybe CH is not such crap after all. :o
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
Fester/Citbaria your answer is waiting for you at the Hangar. Here is the link... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CLAAAAAAASSSSSSIC!
SRSLY, that's awesome customer service. Chasing down a custoner to explain something to them.
I'ma get me some CH stuff. As soon as I rob a bank.
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Micro center is carrying Ch products now. I found that interesting:noid
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Fester check this out Ebay has a few (http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Force-Feedback-2_W0QQitemZ260119663570QQihZ016QQcategoryZ74944QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) :aok
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I've been through two pedals, 2 throttles and on my 3rd stick - and none of them work properly, even now
I can honestly say that I myself - having had just the flakey stick described here - http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4607 (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4607)
am much less of a believer than I once was in the reputation of the CH Products.
Perhaps the rest of the Rolex's comment was over the top, but had I been through over a $1000 worth of the controllers, I'm certain I'd much less thrilled than I am now.
Will I continue to use mine? Sure - because the only other reasonable alternative costs significantly more - and THEN requires significant modification on top of that - to bring it to what I consider an acceptable baseline. But I sure didn't expect to have to muck about with them when I bought them, other than replacing parts that wear out (i.e. pots)
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My numbers for x, y, and rudder are rock solid at deflection, and only flicker single digets at center in the AH panel.
Dang, not only did you get a responce from a former CH-Products Tech, but you got a reply from current CH personel too.
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I have the whole CH USB setup and after 5 years its still rock solid. Every couple of months I have to recalibrate, but other than that they have worked flawlessly.
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Originally posted by Citabria
using new USB versions of pedals and fighterstick with an x45 throttle.
can anyone give me some Aces High Deviation numbers? I tend to see from 31900 to 32500 ie a 300-600 point fluctuation. is this what you see on the analog readout for X or Y axis ack ack?
I would just like to be sure they aren't all this bad before I send it back and get back the same lousy fluctuations in a nother new stick.
I have 100-150 deviation on both axis when moving the stick, on a saitek aviator (wich is pretty nice to play AH)
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
Fester/Citbaria your answer is waiting for you at the Hangar. Here is the link... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630
Stupid customers and their "opinions". Spend their money for stuff that doesn't work and then have the audacity to complain. Thanks for for helping me make up my mind never to spend a dime on CH products.:aok
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I'm still using my 11 year old MS Sidewinder 3D Pro without a glitch. I'd guess it's got 2 hours per day or ~8000 hours on it (almost the equivalent of a full year of 24 hour per day use). From what I'm hearing if it ever breaks I might have to quit.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm still using my 11 year old MS Sidewinder 3D Pro without a glitch. I'd guess it's got 2 hours per day or ~8000 hours on it (almost the equivalent of a full year of 24 hour per day use). From what I'm hearing if it ever breaks I might have to quit.
Nah, you can get em off ebay. Or you can make me an offer on mine. Mine's gameport though ;)
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
Fester/Citbaria your answer is waiting for you at the Hangar. Here is the link... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630
Oh come on, Michael. I slandered no one. I said it "appears," including italics, taking into account the fact that everyone has different impressions based on their own experience, and the reduced warranty period for product shipped overseas. I worded it very carefully. I'll send you my address and you can sue me for slander. There are companies that do exactly as I said.
Sorry Michael, but pardon my surprise that you throw away all goods returned under warranty and all product leaving the factory is new (in caps). It's universal practice to break down returned goods to reuse parts, or replace faulty parts and re-ship the product. Bad parts are returned to the supplier for credit. There is nothing wrong with that at all, that is simple manufacturing 101. All that matters is to have a working product.
I know that consumer goods manufacturing is a tough business. What you're seeing here is a message that people are willing to pay a premium price for premium product, but they expect it to be premium, not ordinary. Perhaps there are problems in packaging causing damage, a poor parts supplier or a poor design (like toe brake wiring on pedals) that should be looked at with an eye toward improvement?
End of story for me, too.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Stupid customers and their "opinions". Spend their money for stuff that doesn't work and then have the audacity to complain. Thanks for for helping me make up my mind never to spend a dime on CH products.:aok
If you have defective product then I have no complaints but when you make false accusations about our products then I have an issue. Re-read my quote I fear you might have missed the "used for new" fable started by "Rolex".
If you read the post I made over at the Hangar you will see a detailed articulate answer for the original problem posted by Fester/Citabria.
Still grumpy that I take pride in our product and the service we provide to all of our customers then CH controllers probably aren't what you are looking for.
You will be sorely missed :(
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I'm surprised CH is using an 8-bit decoder for the x and y axis. I would expect a premium product like that to have better electronics than a 1970's era a/d converter.
I know that my Saitek X52 has an 8-bit on the y axis, and it drives me crazy. Damping only fixes part of the problem. The X axis is 16-bit, I'm pretty sure.
Question: Why aren't you guys using something a little more space-age than analog pots hooked to a/d's? Even the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB used LED and IR receivers (I think, but I know they're not pots)... I'd still be using it if it had a separate throttle.
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Originally posted by Rolex
and the reduced warranty period for product shipped overseas.
Sorry guy but the warranty is the same if you buy in South Africa or South Carolina.
Originally posted by Rolex
It's universal practice to break down returned goods to reuse parts, or replace faulty parts and re-ship the product.
It maybe "universal" but that's not how it works here. It is far more cost effective to pitch it. Labor here in the US is NOT cheap so if it will take more than 20min to take apart then it is a waste of time.
Originally posted by Rolex
Bad parts are returned to the supplier for credit.
Bad controllers are returned to us from distributors for credit. Noe one other than the Factory here at CH is authorized to disassemble or repair CH controllers. If you have had dealings with a point of sale that maintains they "fix" our controllers you may what to look for some other point of sale.
Originally posted by Rolex
What you're seeing here is a message that people are willing to pay a premium price for premium product, but they expect it to be premium, not ordinary.
True, very true... that's why we are this aggressive about our support. If we hear about it then we get right on it. Sometimes we have to find you to fix it. :) Hello Aces High Forum Account
Originally posted by Rolex
Perhaps there are problems in packaging causing damage, a poor parts supplier or a poor design (like toe brake wiring on pedals) that should be looked at with an eye toward improvement?
Possible but unlikely, Parts mostly come from here but we do check the few that don't, and I did go jump down the QC departments a** when we got the complaint. It was only then that we got deep into the issue and found some of the underlying issues. I then posted these at the Hangar with a simple test procedure to help us move forward to the next step in resolving this issue. But no-one has heard back so I guess I will have to search for our friend Fester/Citabria on another forum :)
I am not writing a "Holier than Thou" vibe into my posts, it is pride in your job and a serious desire to make sure everybody knows that CH stand behind it's controllers that I am posting.
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Scottydawg,
We have some Hall Effect controllers but they are for the Industrial side (currently :) ) so they are very expensive.
We are also looking at some other positioning technologies but as we do everything here in San Diego it takes a LONG time to find the right fit for us and make it economically viable here State side. :(
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No, the Microsoft Sidewinder and 3D Pro indeed used a "space-age" optical decoder at the base of the handle to determine positioning (except for the rudder axis, which was a pot) which IMHO was the most precise troublefree stick I've ever owned in that regard.
However, both Microsoft FF sticks I had pots that were moved by the motor bands, but must have used some sort of electronic smoothing, because I never experienced any spiking whatsoever with it.
However, I went through 2 of them in little over a year, because the way they designed the hat switch, the right microswitch would "drop out" as the accuator wore down, and they were rediculously difficult to replace.
I feel bad that my own CH stick seems to have worn excessively - I don't feel like I'm heavy handed on sticks - except the POV hat, which I press about 300 times a minute.
Anyway....
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
Scottydawg,
We have some Hall Effect controllers but they are for the Industrial side (currently :) ) so they are very expensive.
We are also looking at some other positioning technologies but as we do everything here in San Diego it takes a LONG time to find the right fit for us and make it economically viable here State side. :(
Hall Effect sensors are indeed very expensive, and I've not seen them in use outside of automotive distributors and laboratory test equipment, I can't imagine they would be appropriate for the consumer market.
Come to South Carolina, then you could probably afford some better R&D :)
Even going to 16 bit decoder eprom and double pots for spike elimination would be a vast improvement. Double pots are available in various resistances through the pro audio component vectors.
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MichaelCHProd check your PM's please :)
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Originally posted by Shaky
MichaelCHProd check your PM's please :)
With a handle like ShakyStick, this can't be good. ;)
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Hall Effect sensors are indeed very expensive, and I've not seen them in use outside of automotive distributors and laboratory test equipment, I can't imagine they would be appropriate for the consumer market.
My peds have them :p
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Originally posted by Lusche
My peds have them :p
??elaborate?? Are you nerding out or did you buy them retail?
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Originally posted by scottydawg
??elaborate?? Are you nerding out or did you buy them retail?
I got the Simped Pro USB.
http://www.dhs-electronic.de/home.htm
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MichaelCHProd I posted two replies to the CH forum thread but they havent show up they said they have to be reviewed by a moderator?
can you give me the name of a Quality powered USB hub that has had good results with CH sticks experiencing this problem?
i have an antec power supply which is supposed to be very good but its three years old so who knows maybe its that.
i tested the stick in ch manager and it bounces around when centered on its own.
when the ball in the target box is pushed left or up it bounces around a bit and when it is pushed down or right it bounces around pretty severly.
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but all that aside disregarding potentometers powered usb hubs and power supplies why only 8 bit pots? why not 16 bit? why not high end sensors that one would expect in the best available stick made?
the field is open for you guys.
you have hardcore aviation enthusiasts paying hundreds of dollars for in the box like new sidewinders because they arent made anymore and nothiing else in the entire joystick market comes close.
microsoft pulled the plug on their space age sidewinders with optical recievers and there is a hole in the market where this technology is desired but unavailable.
the technology of the CH sticks seams to have remained unchange as far as the sensors (potentometers) go and it seems like it is becoming a dated and obsolete
is there any kits or ways to retrofit a CH stick with better pots or somthing of higher quality or accuracy?
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Originally posted by Lusche
I got the Simped Pro USB.
http://www.dhs-electronic.de/home.htm
woo, how much did those set you back?
BTW, that website is HILARIOUS. Worst engrish I've seen outside of Asia ever.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
woo, how much did those set you back?
I payed 148€ for them, that's around 200$ today. I would have liked to buy the Simped F16 with toebrakes, but they are almost double the price...
Originally posted by scottydawg
BTW, that website is HILARIOUS. Worst engrish I've seen outside of Asia ever.
:D
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Come to South Carolina, then you could probably afford some better R&D :)
Yep, I bet the Charleston/North Charleston area would give you a big tax break if you offered us some new jobs.
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well there ya go Hall sensors in the competitions rudder pedals available and looks like its not connected to microsoft so its unlikely to be discontinued for not marketing to the Xbox crowd.
to bad the site is hard to navigate and in a foriegn language.
these pedals have been around for a while too though they are a bit iinnacessable to the US market with the current state of their website.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Yep, I bet the Charleston/North Charleston area would give you a big tax break if you offered us some new jobs.
Totally. Look what they did for Google.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
After 5 years, my MS sidewinder Precision Pro 2 still works except for the hat switch. It glitches all the time, but for over a year, I've used TrackIR so it isn't a problem. :)
Wow Kermit you just saved me! I am down to my last MSFFPro stick and have three in storage with faulty hat switches. Otherwise, they are functional. Goin' out to get a Track IR right now!
Someone in Aces High recommended that we MSFFPro fans should do the following. Put a fully functional one in a box, wrap in plain brown paper with a big "TOP SECRET" marked on the box, and mail it to China. One week later, you will see copies flooding the market.
The best danged stick ever made, even as a twisty.
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Someone in Aces High recommended that we MSFFPro fans should do the following. Put a fully functional one in a box, wrap in plain brown paper with a big "TOP SECRET" marked on the box, and mail it to China. One week later, you will see copies flooding the market.
:rofl
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Thanks for your response, Michael. I'm not writing with a "holier than thou" or a "smarter than thou" attitude either. I'm glad to hear that your material costs are so low that you can throw away all returned product. ;)
Your web site says 2 year limited warranty, but your Japanese distributor includes a card that says one year only in Japan. Maybe you were not aware of that?
Put yourself in my position for a minute.
I bought a complete set - pedals, throttle and stick- directly from your distributor. All of them were defective and unplayable with bad pots out of the box. I called the distributor the same day they were delivered and was told my only option was to send them back to you in the US, at my expense. They would not replace them. The shipping cost would be about $200 to have brand new product repaired or replaced. I don't think that is reasonable, and I trust you would feel the same way.
Your distributor does not stock parts. Again, the shipping cost is unreasonable from the US. I've purchased 3 sticks and another throttle from different retailers, all of them with bad top hats or stick pots. I've had to cannibalize from my CH Products inventory in my CH Products Closet to get a set working and have learned to live with the spiking pots.
I must just be unlucky. :)
I politely asked your company to contact the distributor and ask them to replace the brand new, unworking product, considering that I have purchased 3 sticks, 2 throttles and 2 rudder pedals - all of them with defects. You replied with a link to your parts page. Thank you very much.
I said originally that you have a good reputation for quality service in the US. I think that's fair and I would not have said that if I were just looking for a fight. Again, how would you feel if you were in my position?
That's a rhetorical question, I suppose. You can't know what problems you may have with foreign distribution if someone doesn't tell you. I don't want to be argumentative or repetitive about this, so if you still feel that you have no problems at all, that's fine by me. I don't need or expect a response to this post.
Cheers
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Originally posted by scottydawg
With a handle like ShakyStick, this can't be good. ;)
LOL...only handle I've ever had (with the exception of games with multiple characters like LoK, UO, etc....).
Honestly gotten too, from my first flight instructor.
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rolex you need to name names with this distributor i think.
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Someone in Aces High recommended that we MSFFPro fans should do the following. Put a fully functional one in a box, wrap in plain brown paper with a big "TOP SECRET" marked on the box, and mail it to China. One week later, you will see copies flooding the market... [/B]
:lol
If CH made a fighter stick as premium as the MS PP2 Sidwinder fighter stick that I paid $40 dollars for, I'd buy it in a heart beat. Being in the comm tech business, potentiometers are always going to be a problem, but using infrared emitter LEDs and phototransistors to form optocouplers seems to work for some applications where more reliability is needed. I do not have engineering experience with hall sensors vs optocoupling w/ LED and complementary phototransistor setup, but I would think it would be worth investing time/money into. I'll re-engineer my own Joystick if/when the time comes.
Oh, 3d printers sure are coming down in price.
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Originally posted by Citabria
but all that aside disregarding potentometers powered usb hubs and power supplies why only 8 bit pots? why not 16 bit? why not high end sensors that one would expect in the best available stick made?
Good question and one that I had asked myself when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products. At the time, Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.
At the time we were just starting to design USB sticks and experimented on a converted Jane's Combat Stick with 50 pots instead of the standard 100 pots. From the tests we ran at the time the converted Jane's Combat Stick performed better, accuracy wise but the pots didn't have a life as long as the 100 pots did and putting 50 pots in for sticks never went beyond the Jane's Combat Stick USB prototype.
ack-ack
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There is only one, Cit. It's an exclusive distributorship listed on CH website. I've said my piece and was rebuffed about it by CH, so it's beating a dead horse. That's just the way it is.
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I'm sure CH's policy hasn't changed since I left there almost 10 years ago. During my time, we instructed our foreign customers to send in their faulty gear to the distributor they purchased it from for replacements. The distributor would then inturn send us the faulty gear for replacement or to refurbish. We'd then send back the gear to the distributor for them to resell.
If the foreign customer kept on getting faulty gear (rare but it does happen) then we would instruct the customer to contact the CH contact at the distributor, who in turn would contact CH directly and arrange a shipment of new gear for the customer to be sent out directly from CH. But that was almost 10 years ago...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Citabria
using new USB versions of pedals and fighterstick with an x45 throttle.
can anyone give me some Aces High Deviation numbers? I tend to see from 31900 to 32500 ie a 300-600 point fluctuation. is this what you see on the analog readout for X or Y axis ack ack?
I would just like to be sure they aren't all this bad before I send it back and get back the same lousy fluctuations in a nother new stick.
If the USB stick is properly calibrated in Windows, you shouldn't see a deviation in numbers. Mine is rock steady at 32500 and does not fluctuate.
Question, does the fluctuation happen after a period of time or is it constant?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Good question and one that I had asked myself when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products. At the time, Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.
At the time we were just starting to design USB sticks and experimented on a converted Jane's Combat Stick with 50 pots instead of the standard 100 pots. From the tests we ran at the time the converted Jane's Combat Stick performed better, accuracy wise but the pots didn't have a life as long as the 100 pots did and putting 50 pots in for sticks never went beyond the Jane's Combat Stick USB prototype.
ack-ack
so the 50 pots are 16bit and the 100 pots are 8bit?
and would the 16 bit pot have the 64000 position inputs while the 8 bit has 255?
and what about the methods the sidewinders used? or this dieter hoffman guy who just built the hall monitor stuff on his own and marketed it?
it just is amazing to me that its been four years now and no one has bought the rights from Microsoft for their sidewinder technology and the hoffman stuff is basically been very hard to get in the US ever since it was released ingermany what 5 years ago?
you can see as from what rolex has invested in CH with god knows how many sticks and throttles and rudders that hardcore simmers will pay top dollar to anyone able to deliver a #@!#@! stick and pedals that have the technology and precision they want.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If the USB stick is properly calibrated in Windows, you shouldn't see a deviation in numbers. Mine is rock steady at 32500 and does not fluctuate.
Question, does the fluctuation happen after a period of time or is it constant?
ack-ack
its constant right after calibrating it bounces around always bouncing even when not even touching the stick and its centered. the high ranges on the pots... ie 100-255 bounce the worst. its just not enjoyable for me to fly with a controller that behaves this way. i deadbanded out the centerpoint bouncing but i cant deadband or dampen such heavy oscilations in readings when the stick is deflected and its when its deflected back a bit where your pulling steady lead to hit a target that the stick performs worst right in that area of the band.
im using my saitek x52 again. the ch stick is sitting on the shelf. the x52 dosnt bounce at all and has very precise readings in ah on every axis.
sadly if the ch stick didnt have the bouncing i would prefer to use it instead of the x52 :(
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My CH stick and pedals are nice and steady. They are about 7 years old, all of it heavy use, and still work great.
I can attest that it does make a difference, powered USB hub vs. unpowered. Unpowered for me has some small amount of jitteriness -- the powered hub makes it all rock steady and beautiful.
I got my first CH stick in 1990 or so because they were recommended by folks in Air Warrior (back when Air Warrior first came out for the PC). Ever since then, I have bought CH gear for myself (a couple sets of normal game-port stuff way back when, replacements to USB when computers stopped coming with game ports), bought some for friends (a stick here and there as a gift), and recommended it to others. I have always been happy with the quality, feel, and performance of CH gear. I've probably bought altogether about 6 sticks and 3-4 pedals over the past 15 years. With all of that, I had maybe two things break: one USB stick damaged probably by static discharge or rough handling during a move of my abode, and wire breakage in my pedals after seven years of heavy use (which I then fixed and still use).
As for 16 bit vs. 8 bit, I don't think it matters at all. At 8 bits, you get about 0.2 degrees of movement per bit. I doubt anyone generally has the ability to maneuver a stick by hand with better than 0.2 degrees of precision or would notice if it's 0.2 degrees, 0.4 degrees, or 0.0008 degrees per bit. What matters is steadiness of the signal and feel of the stick (stick forces, smoothness, etc.), which for my CH stick and pedals seems excellent.
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Originally posted by Brooke
My CH stick and pedals are nice and steady. They are about 7 years old, all of it heavy use, and still work great.
I can attest that it does make a difference, powered USB hub vs. unpowered. Unpowered for me has some small amount of jitteriness -- the powered hub makes it all rock steady and beautiful.
...
As for 16 bit vs. 8 bit, I don't think it matters at all. At 8 bits, you get about 0.2 degrees of movement per bit. I doubt anyone generally has the ability to maneuver a stick by hand with better than 0.2 degrees of precision or would notice if it's 0.2 degrees, 0.4 degrees, or 0.0008 degrees per bit. What matters is steadiness of the signal and feel of the stick (stick forces, smoothness, etc.), which for my CH stick and pedals seems excellent.
thats my first move brooke can you guide me to a good powered usb hub?
after my initial knee jerk reaction and frustration I have resisted the urge to smash this fighterstick into a million pieces. I find I still want to experience it at its best and not in its current lothsome state.
my problem is that the steadiness and the smoothness is nonexistant with my fighterstick as it wobbles back and forth on its own between readings giving you control of where you are pointing the plane well enough but the plane is bouncing up and down quite rapidly on its own to points on either side of where you intended the plane to be pointing.
i mean you obviously dont see the blackouts as a rapidly pulsating like a heartbeat effect with your fighterstick?
I know i dont see this with my x52.
you dont see the entire ah world wobble as you are in a coordinated turn in a rather annoying fashion?
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I guess things have changed, Ack-Ack. Michael from CH has emphatically stated that returned goods are thrown away, and CH does not refurbish product and send it back to distributors for resale.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
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I will say Fester sorry about the troubles bro.
when you asked about it in the squad forum I gave my honest impression. I LOVE my stick and it has done nothing but work perfectly since day 1.
I'm gonna bet it is something flaky and weird in your situation, out of the norm so to say. it's a bummer, but thats all I can think of.
You have to admit though, MichaelCHProd is on top of the game, and I bet he will help best he can.
I will say MichaelCHProd I love the product and recommend it to anyone who asks. My ONLY reservation is the throttle. I don't have one for the SOLE reason it does not have rotary trim controls. I really wish you guys would make one with that, then I'd be full CH instead of using the x45 throttle.
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
If you have defective product then I have no complaints but when you make false accusations about our products then I have an issue. Re-read my quote I fear you might have missed the "used for new" fable started by "Rolex".
If you read the post I made over at the Hangar you will see a detailed articulate answer for the original problem posted by Fester/Citabria.
Still grumpy that I take pride in our product and the service we provide to all of our customers then CH controllers probably aren't what you are looking for.
You will be sorely missed :(
I don't have an issue with you taking pride in your product. Its the treatment of Rolex by your company and you I have the issue with.
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Do any of you get the impression that things might have been stirred up with the Higher Ups at CH?
Hope they pay attention to use to make their product even better.
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thing is I still have hope to be a believer in CH gear. I have like half my squad using the stuff and they love it and are not experiencing the problems I am.
its not fair I tell you!:cry :D
that and it sounds like rolex got raked over the coals or fell through the cracks. they might want to look into that more thoroughly.
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Sounds like CH might need to start making powered hubs and make it clear that they are needed to make their product work properly.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Precision-2-Joystick_W0QQitemZ320115320503QQihZ011QQcategoryZ97930QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Force-Feedback-2_W0QQitemZ260119663570QQihZ016QQcategoryZ74944QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Precision-2-Joystick_W0QQitemZ320115254681QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3677QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Here just a few I found for ya fester. There alot more there.
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Citabria check also if the trim on the Fighterstick are not inducing noise.
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Originally posted by straffo
Citabria check also if the trim on the Fighterstick are not inducing noise.
I forgot about that.:(
Good call.
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Originally posted by Citabria
thats my first move brooke can you guide me to a good powered usb hub?
my problem is that the steadiness and the smoothness is nonexistant with my fighterstick as it wobbles back and forth on its own between readings giving you control of where you are pointing the plane well enough but the plane is bouncing up and down quite rapidly on its own to points on either side of where you intended the plane to be pointing.
i mean you obviously dont see the blackouts as a rapidly pulsating like a heartbeat effect with your fighterstick?
you dont see the entire ah world wobble as you are in a coordinated turn in a rather annoying fashion?
I'm using and old, inexpensive D-Link DSB-H4, 4-port USB hub with its own external power supply (and an LED on it telling me when it's running on the external power supply vs. the USB bus supplied power). I think any of the usual brands of USB hubs with their own external power would likely work (D-Link, Lynksys, Belkin, Kensington, etc.).
I know what you mean. If I turn off my computer, unplug the external power from my USB hub (into which my stick and pedals are plugged), turn back on my computer (so that the USB devices are powered off my PC's USB bus), and play, my joystick and pedal inputs are somewhat jittery. In near blackouts, the blackout level will be jittering in and out of blackout levels as you describe, and pulling some g's (so that I'm out of the deadband setting in the game), my nose will hunt around due to the jitter. When I'm rolling down the runway on takeoff, the ball of the turn-and-bank indicator will be jittering back and forth because of rudder jitter. Also, I can see the jitter in any program that shows raw stick and pedal values (such as in AH's stick mapping control panel or in Windows settings).
Then if I shut everything down, plug back in the power to my USB hub, and restart everything, all is nice and steady -- smooth as glass.
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Originally posted by Slash27
I don't have an issue with you taking pride in your product. Its the treatment of Rolex by your company and you I have the issue with.
Rolex is a good guy. But all that happened was that he said, "It appears to me that all those returned products get boxed up and shipped overseas," and the CH Products guy got just a little offended by that (as it would be unprofessional for CH to do that) and corrected the notion with a very mildly sarcastic post. Nothing wrong with that. It's not like he stooped to the usual level of discourse we have in here! :)
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Just a thought here and nothing against CH products as I've never owned one but since someone from CH was here so quickly to defend themselves you don't think they've been trolling these sites for years innocuously promoting themselves do you?
I used to have a job marketing an internet site and one of the guerilla tactics we used was to set up user accounts at relevent sites/BBs and post good things about ourselves in inconspicuous ways.
I also spent 28 years in the music industry and there we used to innocuously work "lifestyle" establishments to create buzz around a product/act.
Word of mouth and "community" endorsement go a long way. "Yeah, I heard CH really makes good stuff but it's expensive". This is actually brilliant as it works to drive up margins while appealing to the "elitist" mentality (I'm better than you because I spent xxx to get the best) and to pride of ownership; "Yep, I splurged and got the full set-up."
How about the comfort and convenience presented in this thread; "We come searching for YOU if you have a problem".
People instinctively buy a particular product or service, if not out of nessessity, for one of five emotionals reasons and over the years I've heard all five applied to CH products.
Maybe they do make the best stuff or or maybe not and they are just good marketers. Decide for yourself.
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OK this will be a small novel so some of you may wish to scroll down.
I will start with Rolex...
I bought a complete set - pedals, throttle and stick- directly from your distributor. All of them were defective and unplayable with bad pots out of the box. I called the distributor the same day they were delivered and was told my only option was to send them back to you in the US, at my expense. They would not replace them. The shipping cost would be about $200 to have brand new product repaired or replaced. I don't think that is reasonable, and I trust you would feel the same way.
That's unsat. You should have contacted the Director of Retail Marketing and Sales (currently Debby McDowell debby@mailDOTchproductsDOTcom). I know for a fact that someone in Asia got a defective Throttle Quad and we had the distributor swap it out NOT send it back to us. Debby is in Europe for the next week but I will send her a PM asking her to check her mail this week.
I politely asked your company to contact the distributor and ask them to replace the brand new, unworking product, considering that I have purchased 3 sticks, 2 throttles and 2 rudder pedals - all of them with defects. You replied with a link to your parts page. Thank you very much.
Do you have any names by chance? How long ago was this?
I don't need or expect a response to this post.
But you should expect one as you deserve a response.
from Ack Ack.....
The distributor would then inturn send us the faulty gear for replacement or to refurbish.
Nope sorry, mistaken or confused. We DO NOT refurb controllers for resale... EVER. I have been here six years and this has never been our policy.
Now serving Ack Ack...
... when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products
Who are you?
...Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.
Chuck still maintains that the Hall Effect Sensors we currently use for OEM products are too expensive for Retail use. As for the OEM pots, I have tried four different pots from the OEM catalog in my 586 Combatstick and seen no significant difference in use. They will however last four and five times as long. With most CH controller owners getting more than five years out of their controllers I don't think this is a real issue. I mean what do you have connected to your PC right now that is more than five years old? A PS2 mouse? A Dell Quietkey Keyboard that was the first one you saw with a Windows logo key? I have a next generation Combatstick in my office and it's not using over priced OEM pots. :)
now serving Slash27
I see no reason to continue to banter with you as this is not my house and it will add nothing to the thread. So I announce you as the "War Hero of the Oppressed" for this thread :aok Your sash and anointed crown await your arrival at the CH Tech Support Office.
and to the meat of the thread I reply to Fester/Citabria...
I am at home right now so I can't remember the brand and model of powered USB hub that we use for testing and trade shows but remind me tomorrow and I will post back here with what we have.
If you are seeing the ball jump after a good calibration in the Control Manager then you may just have a bad stick. Odd that its both axes but anything can happen.
You can wait to test it on a powered USB hub or you can do one of two things (the list is larger but these are the realistic ones)...
1. Request an RMA from us and send the unit in for repair.
2. Contact the point of sale and exchange the controller for a new one.
If you go with #2 let me know where you go it so I can look for it when they send it in for credit.
Now for the controller discussion...
8-bit(0-255) and 10-bit(0-1024) are the resolutions you are looking really looking for. Once you go over 10-bit you either have to increase the physical travel of the stick significantly or you are never going to notice. It's simply too much for no gain. Most people have hard time keeping the stick from moving 3/16 of and inch (measured from the trigger) and even then what is the reason to do so? When I fly I seldom hold the stick in an exact position for more than twenty seconds and that is usually when I am trying to refuel. When I need it that steady and numb to my inputs I use a script in the Control Manager to change the response curve of the pot and use a mode switch or shifted function to turn toggle it on the fly. Truth is anything over 10-bit is wasted unless you have the physical travel in the controller to really get some use out of it, and as far as I know no desktop joystick has that travel. But it looks sexy on a box or a web page, and that's why you hear about it.
So you say "why is the Fighterstick (Combatstick, Flightstick Pro) 8-bit?"
10-bit is on the wish list. Hardware changes are simple as long as we stay with an analog pot going to an AtoD converter. But why stay on a pot? There is a long list of items that are on the new product development wish list for the next generation of our joysticks. We have cut some of that development time with the purchase of a Z Corp 3D printer ;) (that was just for you Kermit) as well as a Konica Minolta non contacting 3D digitizer and some serious software. But that is only half the way. Molds are made here in San Diego at our factory. It's not farmed out to China. So there is still a great deal of time and capitol that has to go into a new controller. Especially if it has to meet ALL of the requirements of my wish list.
Software changes are significant no two ways about it. Currently the our software dev is working on Windows Vista (x86 and 64) versions of the Control Manager. We felt this was far more pressing.
Ok I am done. I am going to bed and I will check back here tomorrow.
P.S. Shaky --> Check your PM's :)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Just a thought here and nothing against CH products as I've never owned one . . .
Joinnnnnnn uuuuuuus . . . jOINNNNNNNN uuuuuuus! :)
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Originally posted by Brooke
Joinnnnnnn uuuuuuus . . . jOINNNNNNNN uuuuuuus! :)
:lol I knew I'd get the conspiracy theory thing going with that post.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
:lol I knew I'd get the conspiracy theory thing going with that post.
Heh! Also, check out Xargos's animated-gif avatar. I know there are subliminal messages imbedded in that. I can't figure out which side he's on though. Illuminatus, Member of the Trilateral Commission, Desciple of J. R. Dobbs . . . ? We will probably never know.
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Originally posted by Citabria
so the 50 pots are 16bit and the 100 pots are 8bit?
and would the 16 bit pot have the 64000 position inputs while the 8 bit has 255?
No the 50 and 100 refers to the impedance (ohms) of the pot when fully cranked one direction (there is no impedance at the other direction). Pots are most commonly used as analog volume controls. The higher the impedance of a pot, the more discreteness can be decoded by an a/d converter. The a/d converter is where the magic happens, 8-bit will give you 256 discrete integers and 16 bit will give you 65535 increments.
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Fester, this is the hub I use BELKIN (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=159070). Works great with no drifting or spiking in my CH stuff, I have all 3 plugged in to it.
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See Rule #4 (that was completely inappropriate)
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for what it's worth. I went through four or five saiteks (X45s) and one MS sidewinder ( I gave that stick to tankman2, I hated it) prior to breaking down and purchasing the full CH suite two years ago. I spent around $US450.00 CH products are well worth the money spent. I had one problem similar to what fester described and it was solved by merely utilizing a different USB port. I don't know how good the customer service is at CH because I have never needed to call them.
if michaelCH is still monitoring this thread I'm impressed with your response here and with your witty answers to some of your detractors.
I have a question that perhaps you can answer for me. if you are familiar with the saitek X45 throttle they have a very useful feature in the form of the pots labled rotary switches 1&2. while the CH throttle is good I think the saitek throttle is far superior in most aspects. is CH considering offering a throttle with rotary switches in the future? in my particular case I'm missing my right thumb after the first joint so the hat switches and most of the other joystick switchs on the top of the joystick are unused by me. my left hand does all the work of views and trim as well as some of the firing.
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Slash can't wait to hear from you...
Full name is Michael Sexton
Immediate Supervisor - Debby McDowell (in Europe at the moment)
The next bump in the chain is Chuck and he is here today
1-760-598-2518
or you can use the Tech line if this is an emergency
1-760-598-7833
Storch...
Rotaries are cool and I do miss them on our Pro Throttle. They are on the wish list for the next throttle. In the mean time you can always look into a Franken Potato... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/531Ghost/100_0109.jpg)
Here is the link to the creator... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/member.php?u=99
I don't know if he is still making them but he might ;)
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Here is the USB hub that works in all versions of Windows (including 64bit) and has no drop out issues...
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=159070
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You may want to note on future packaging that a powered hub is needed with your product, I think it would save you allot of future customer related problems.
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Michael, I assume Ack Ack has or will PM you with the answer to your question concerning who he is.
I can say this from experience that when it came to helping the customer out with a problem , there was and I believe never will be any better than Ack Ack when he was with CH.
Customer service , in any business, could use a few Ack Acks these days.
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Folks oooh and aaaah at the old Sidewinders.
I've been using one for years now. Before that I had a string of crappy sticks.
While the MS Sidewinder IS a decent stick, it is only "good" compared to the string of crappy sticks that preceeded it.
Have you ever taken it apart? I have. Its simplicity is wonderful. However, the quality itself isn't that much better than anything else you'd find. My "hat-left" is starting to not work properly and sometimes buttons don't register on the base when I press them. Even when not touching it, it spikes minutely. I have it slightly deadbanded to prevent it from causing problems in-flight, but my engine boost needle always quivers unless it's at full throttle. There's only so much you can do with 1 or 2 light sensors and 4 LEDs or so moving over them.
Better than anything else I've had, but I've only had the bottom of the barrel. I'd go to an X-52 or Cyborg or combat stick in a minute if I had the means. For now the MS Prec Pro (gameport) keeps me flying, but it's not perfect.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Michael, I assume Ack Ack has or will PM you with the answer to your question concerning who he is.
I can say this from experience that when it came to helping the customer out with a problem , there was and I believe never will be any better than Ack Ack when he was with CH.
Customer service , in any business, could use a few Ack Acks these days.
I will second that! I took my old analog stick in to CH in Vista, Ca and Ack Ack< I believe it was Ack> took my stick walked in the back and came back with a new one in the box. At that time they did refurbish Sticks. "Is that it?" I asked "yup your good to go!" he said. All it cost me was Gas and it was only $1.20 then .
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Originally posted by Krusty
There's only so much you can do with 1 or 2 light sensors and 4 LEDs or so moving over them.
Beats the snot out of analog pots any day, though.
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Fester,
I have a spare set of CH analog (not Pro) HOTAS. I'm happy to ship them to you, I had them since '95 and never had a problem with them. Upgraded to Ch Pro in 2002...
If you want them, send a PM w/a mailing addy, I'll ship 'em
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Scotty: I just wished they'd used more sensors and more LEDs to avoid all the spiking.
Either the design is lacking, or the chips that PROCESS the signals burn out, because it's spiking. It's better than LogiCrap by a light year, but still you're getting what you pay for, and you're only paying $20.
I wouldn't call it "revolutionary" or anything.
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
Now serving Ack Ack...
Who are you?
Ack-Ack vollies...
I worked at CH Products from '95 to '99, with Rick Salvador, Jon Micheals (a.k.a. MajorFireball; -MF-), Gil Sorenson (Mac Tech) and myself. After -MF- left, I became the Senior PC Tech, as I was the only PC tech other than the tech manager, Rick. This was before your time there, as Greg was still the CEO and Chuck was semi-retired building his airplane on the second floor. You can also ask those that attended the '98 Warbirds Con in Irvine, TX or those that attended the '98 AW Con in San Francisco or those that used to lurk or visit the Gamestorm AW tech forums who I am.
ack-ack
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(http://tech-rep.org/chsetup.jpg)
:D
Hi Michael,
We went all through this about a year and a half ago. I think it was Debby McDowell I emailed with this story. The name sounds familiar, but it was definitely a woman with the same title. She sent me a reply that someone would contact me about it and you sent the reply directing me to the parts link at your site.
Since then, I've bought another throttle (which spikes like mad) and a few more sticks, as you can see. Every single one has something wrong with it.
Anyway, I mentioned before that I did get the distributor to send me another set of pedals. Credit cards are used infrequently in Japan, and the usual method of payment is COD, bank transfer or a post office payment. The pedals were mistakenly sent by post office payment, which means that the product is delivered with a form that you take to the post office to pay for it.
I know that sounds strange to you, but in Japan there are still many businesses that ship that way. The product is expected to work or be up to the customer's expectation, so the customer pays the bill whenever they go to the post office.
I told the distributor I was not going to pay unless they exchanged the pedals. They sent another set COD and took back the first set. My point is that you should have gotten those pedals back from the distributor, right? You should have just as many returns, statistically, from every location. If that isn't happening, then maybe your distributor is not returning them to you. They could be going back out without you knowing it.
Another reason could be that I have all the defective products in Asia at my house... Statistically unlikely, but you never know. ;)
The retailers insist that the distributor handle any warranty claims, and the distributor insists that the customer contact you for warranty service. If you get very few returns, then I can understand why. The customer still has any defective product (like me), or has thrown it out, since no parts or warranty service is actually available. They cannot navigate the English CH site to return product any better than anyone at CH can navigate the distributor's Japanese language site.
If your sales aren't what you expect, then there may be some answers somewhere in the above. Sorry that I got this thread from Citabria sidetracked. I'm not trying to be preachy or belabor the obvious about business or distributors. It's your business.
Sure your product is a little expensive here (I've spent about $1,200 in the last year and a half), but I just wanted it to work. That's all I asked for. I just wanted it to work. Call me crazy, but I'm not going to buy any more. It's too frustrating and something doesn't seem right here in Japan that I should have 7 controllers and not one that works normally.
I'm ready to try something new anyway. Maybe I can start collecting all the bad X-52 sets in Japan? I think I can buy a new X-52 every 60 days and spend less money. As long as it works for those 60 days, I'll be happy to do that.
And everyone will be happy to hear that I'll exit this thread now. ;)
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Originally posted by Rolex
(http://tech-rep.org/chsetup.jpg)
:D
Bonus for having Michael's post in the background of your picture. I can't imagine how the heck you actually fly with that setup, must be hilarious to watch you.
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My post is in there to prove the time and date... kinda like "proof of life" in a kidnapping :)
Send me an e-mail Rolex
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Originally posted by Xargos
You may want to note on future packaging that a powered hub is needed with your product, I think it would save you allot of future customer related problems.
I don't think a powered hub is NEEDED. If you have a strong power supply you should be fine. Think Fester said his was 3 years old. While power supplies don't change as fast as MBs and ram these days, its important to remember that all the stuff you upgrade to your computer will have a larger power draw. This will start over working a power supply.
Adding a powered hub takes some of the work load off of the powersupply.
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Rolex, my god, man -- you are the Borg! :)
I couldn't tell from the setup, but are all your sticks, etc., plugged into an externally powered USB hub? If so, is there any way on the hub to tell for sure that it is externally powered and not drawing from the computer's USB bus?
The reason I ask is that I have a powered USB hub. However, at one point, although the connector visually looked plugged in, it wasn't, and so the hub wasn't getting external power. I wouldn't have been able to tell that except that (1) my stick was jittery when before it was smooth as glass and (2) once I noticed that and looked, I could see that the hub's LED that signifies it's on external power was not lit. Once I made sure the power connector was back in and functioning, everything went back to being very smooth and nice.
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My controllers are 8' from the pc so I actually have all 3 controllers plugged into a 4 port powered hub that is plugged into the 7 port version of the Belkin hub. My 5 year old controllers are rock solid with their new pots.
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Fester got a powered hub, and the results are in -- all his stuff is now rock solid and smooth! That is excellent!
Details are in this thread:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206330
Now we just need to figure out what's going on with Rolex's borg setup.
Rolex, is all that stuff going into a powered hub that is powered up?
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
Fester/Citbaria your answer is waiting for you at the Hangar. Here is the link... http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630
Michael,
Rolex has had a legitimate problem for some time with his CH stuff. Perhaps you should investigate the problem he's having with the distributor and not be so thin skinned about your product when someone posts a problem they have had. Personally, I've had all CH gear for years with no problem, but Rolex has returned items and the replacements were no better. He has a right to be frustrated.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Sounds like CH might need to start making powered hubs and make it clear that they are needed to make their product work properly.
The problem is not CH's gear. It is computer manufacturer's taking short cuts on design so they can have more marketing whistles to blow.
Say you have 4 USB ports on your computer, but only one controller. That controller has to sink current over those 4 ports, but only has the ability to sink the maximum specified current for one USB port. While the computer power supply can be part of the issue, the real problem is the USB's controllers inability to sink/provide enough current for everything connected to it.
I have always recommended using external powered USB hubs when using any HOTAS setup. It is the only way to ensure proper operation of the sticks and any other USB connected product.
I have used external powered USB hubs from Belkin and DLink without any problems.
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If CH knows there is a problem with their fine products not getting enough power to operate their devices properly because computer manufactures are taking shortcuts, then they need to let their customers know upfront by placing warnings on their packaging. Just think about all the customers they may have lost because they didn't know all they needed was a power hub. That is all I meant.
P.S. Fester is in love with his CH Products now that they are hooked up to a power hub. And if he had not sought out any help, he would still be thinking their product was crap.
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USB driver informs if the controller experiences a power surge but I'm not sure what is the detection threshold and if it warns of very brief surges which may reset the attached device and cause a detection error.
Good advice actually, I guess I'll plug my Cougar to USB hub to solve some anomalies I have suffered in my USB devices.
-C+
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NAPA didnt have any USB hubs. They had some baby moon and wire jobs, but the guy ddnt know what a USB was. Any info?
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Originally posted by Bear76
Michael,
Rolex has had a legitimate problem for some time with his CH stuff. Perhaps you should investigate the problem he's having with the distributor and not be so thin skinned about your product when someone posts a problem they have had. Personally, I've had all CH gear for years with no problem, but Rolex has returned items and the replacements were no better. He has a right to be frustrated.
you should read thru the whole thread before posting things like "thin skinned"
Micheal is on the problem with Rolex, if you had read the whole thread ( every post ) you would have seen this and would not have posted such unneeded response......
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Originally posted by Xargos
If CH knows there is a problem with their fine products not getting enough power to operate their devices properly because computer manufactures are taking shortcuts, then they need to let their customers know upfront by placing warnings on their packaging. Just think about all the customers they may have lost because they didn't know all they needed was a power hub. That is all I meant.
P.S. Fester is in love with his CH Products now that they are hooked up to a power hub. And if he had not sought out any help, he would still be thinking their product was crap.
It does not effect every computer. Some higher quality products actually have multiple USB controllers, but, and unfortunately, the USB ports are not labeled to indicate which controller they are attached to.
It is hit and miss. I think the best CH could do is to document that some computers USB ports cannot supply adequate power and then list the symptoms which indicate the problem.
It is not CH that is violating the USB specification by providing more USB ports than the computer can actually drive.
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As we are discussing CH products they may like to know that the fine wire's that are used in the pedals are prone to chaffing and snapping this has happened to me three times,the first time after only 4 months use.The guides that keep the wires tidy are made of plastic and sharp enough to cause the chaffing and eventual snap.
I have voided the warrenty and repaired these myself,but for those not handy with a soldering iron/or don't wish to void their warrenty,this must be a pain.
CH may already have solved this problem ,or maybe I'm just unlucky:( apart from this all my gear is Ch and has,apart from the above, been very reliable.
Very nice and refreshing to see a reresentitive from the company adressing are problems on the boards.Thankyou micheal:aok :aok
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Originally posted by Hazzer
As we are discussing CH products they may like to know that the fine wire's that are used in the pedals are prone to chaffing and snapping this has happened to me three times,the first time after only 4 months use.The guides that keep the wires tidy are made of plastic and sharp enough to cause the chaffing and eventual snap.
I had the same problem and preformed the same surgery securing the wires in a way that held them away from the other moving parts. The kludge has been working for a year now.
Glad to follow Michael's responses in this discussion and the happy outcome for Fester, it confirms my decision to make CH gear my next replacement.
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The wire "clips" in the Pro Pedals for the Toe Brakes became a known issue a while ago and we have since made some changes in both the wire as well as the method for assembly.
The real problem was that the people assembling them were using their long finger nails (yes mostly women ;) ) to sink the wires down into the "clips" and they were putting a nasty pinch on the wires which if not placed correctly the movement of the pedals would stretch the wires and cause them to separate.
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Hi Michael from CH. Thanks for stopping by.
Any chance you could buy up the rights to produce the Microsoft Precision Pro, as a budget CH stick? They have a massive fanbase and are no longer in production :(
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Hall Effect sensors are indeed very expensive, and I've not seen them in use outside of automotive distributors and laboratory test equipment, I can't imagine they would be appropriate for the consumer market.
Come to South Carolina, then you could probably afford some better R&D :)
Even going to 16 bit decoder eprom and double pots for spike elimination would be a vast improvement. Double pots are available in various resistances through the pro audio component vectors.
I might be wrong but doesn't the X-52 use a type of hall sensor for the Xand Y axis in the stick? I had mine apart and it looked like a hall . It looked like a probe that is surrounded by a magnetic field . I'm no expert so i could be some bastard design .
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My CH gear works perfectly...and has for years...I calibrate them maybe twice a year ...best money i have ever spent
runing
CH pro throttle
CH 568 combat stick
CH pro peddals
FYI I do prefer the CH mark I rudders...but they are no longer made
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
you should read thru the whole thread before posting things like "thin skinned"
Micheal is on the problem with Rolex, if you had read the whole thread ( every post ) you would have seen this and would not have posted such unneeded response......
Perhaps you should reread Michael's first response. That was unneccesary. I'm glad he is addressing Rolex's problem.
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
The wire "clips" in the Pro Pedals for the Toe Brakes became a known issue a while ago and we have since made some changes in both the wire as well as the method for assembly.
The real problem was that the people assembling them were using their long finger nails (yes mostly women ;) ) to sink the wires down into the "clips" and they were putting a nasty pinch on the wires which if not placed correctly the movement of the pedals would stretch the wires and cause them to separate.
Yikes, I think I used the same method to push my wires into those plastic holders. Next time I open mine I better use Plan B.
I'll now run off and clip my fingernails!!!
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A good sharp steak knife is the only assembly tool you need. ;)
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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
The wire "clips" in the Pro Pedals for the Toe Brakes became a known issue a while ago and we have since made some changes in both the wire as well as the method for assembly.
The real problem was that the people assembling them were using their long finger nails (yes mostly women ;) ) to sink the wires down into the "clips" and they were putting a nasty pinch on the wires which if not placed correctly the movement of the pedals would stretch the wires and cause them to separate.
As long as we have you on the line.....
Why did CH do away with flash programming? Is it not available with digital USB sticks or was it some effort on your Company's part to save a buck?
Thanks
Ren
The Damned
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Glad to hear Fester is up and running again :aok
MichaelCHProd > just wanted you go pass on a BIG TY to your bosses for keeping your manufactureing here in the USA
I have bought myself a full set of CH gear , plus many extra ones for gifts and never had a real problem yet . But the toe brake wire .
I buy BFG vidieo cards , Redwing work boots etc for some of the same reasons . Well made and made in the USA .
If you want to sell stuff here , make it here , then I will have a job , and the money to buy it :)
again TY
:aok
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repost form other thread just to make sure everyone knows how awsome Ch gear is... :D
Thank You CH Products!
Thank You MichaelCHProd for all the help! made a CH believer out of me after all!
wow its unreal.
all I had to do was buy a Belkin powered USB hub and hook all my stuff into it instead of my PC (including my saitek x52 and x45) not only is my CH fighterstick amazing in accuracy and control with 0 dampening and 0 deadband and sliders full linear it is like glass! smooth!
its turned ah into a whole new experience because now all my controllers have been so improved by this little powered USB hub that it is amazing the difference.
my 2 1/2 yr old CH pro pedals which jittered? GLASS!! with 0 deadband and dampening!
even my crappy old x45? GLASS!
my x52? GLASS!
if you see the raw numbers fluctuate at all in the AH control setup screen try buying this little usb hub and you might be amazed at the difference in how smooth everything suddenly is no matter who makes it.
unreal
this rocks!
everything rocks!
:D
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I've had zero problems with my CH gear. In fact, I like them so much I put a CH stick in my real airplane.
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Originally posted by Bear76
Perhaps you should reread Michael's first response. That was unneccesary. I'm glad he is addressing Rolex's problem.
Rolex opened the door with:
CH does have an image of providing good customer service in the US. If I buy another set, I'll probably end up with yours after you've sent them back.
It appears to me that all those returned products get boxed up and shipped overseas, as is, since the warranty is shorter and it's cheaper to buy a new controller than to ship them back for warranty work.
rereading Micheal's first response, I see im defending his company. He states that :
ahhhh the Internet... where everyone gets a chance to slander with no repercussions.
this seems like a defending reply to me...........nothing "thin skinned" about that I can see, nope nadda
The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.
then he followed up with the above response to verify that what Rolex posted was not the case. Then he later in the thread asked Rolex to email him, and said what Rolex posted was unsat regarding the trouble Rolex went thru with the distributor overseas...
Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
now serving Slash27
I see no reason to continue to banter with you as this is not my house and it will add nothing to the thread. So I announce you as the "War Hero of the Oppressed" for this thread Your sash and anointed crown await your arrival at the CH Tech Support Office.
Micheal, you might want to think about awarding Bear76 this same award or one like it, seems the ~Hells Angels~ squad has it out for you for some reason.......:rofl
I think if a rep from a company that takes the time to surf these boards at Aces High and offers to help fix problems that their customers are having, does not invite others to just inadvertently flame them for no apparent reasoning.......
3 wrongs still doesn't make it right, no matter what math you know......
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Micheal, you might want to think about awarding Bear76 this same award or one like it, seems the ~Hells Angels~ squad has it out for you for some reason.......:rofl
for :cry :cry :cry out loud man.
Why is it a squad thing?
I must have missed the memo.
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Originally posted by Angry Samoan
Why is it a squad thing?
you're right, it isn't a squad thing, dropping it....
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Thanks, TC.
Sigh. Let me say this very clearly:
- I have no problem with Michael whatsoever and believe he is here acting in good faith to support his customers. I believe he is sincere that the product being shipped is all new.
- I have tried to have a discussion with him, not tried to argue with him or provoke anyone.
- I have not tried to enlist any support and have no "campaign" against Michael or his company. I have not even spoken to anyone about this thread on line. Some squad members are aware of my bad luck in CH controllers from previous discussions, but I'm not a hot head about it.
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*AND* . . . we all want Rolex's setup to work well for him! :)
Rolex, I hope it works out as well as things ended up for Fester.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Rolex opened the door with:
rereading Micheal's first response, I see im defending his company. He states that :
this seems like a defending reply to me...........nothing "thin skinned" about that I can see, nope nadda
then he followed up with the above response to verify that what Rolex posted was not the case. Then he later in the thread asked Rolex to email him, and said what Rolex posted was unsat regarding the trouble Rolex went thru with the distributor overseas...
Micheal, you might want to think about awarding Bear76 this same award or one like it, seems the ~Hells Angels~ squad has it out for you for some reason.......:rofl
I think if a rep from a company that takes the time to surf these boards at Aces High and offers to help fix problems that their customers are having, does not invite others to just inadvertently flame them for no apparent reasoning.......
3 wrongs still doesn't make it right, no matter what math you know......
Wow..I know how much problem Rolex has had(you hear those things in a squad ya know) and just wanted to see it resolved, not have it dismissed outright as an untruth. I'm glad Rolex is now getting help, which was the point all along. I'm sure Skuzzy appreciates you continuing the "flame" in your response here"for no apparent reasoning"
:lol
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I have used CH since Air Warrior.I have had only one problem with a Combat Stick,and CH replaced it immediately.My rudder pedals have a little problem with calibrating,like its not zero centered,but off by about 14 whatever that is,but no problem flying.I would recommend CH gear to everyone.
ID
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Does anyone have their settings for their CH fighterstick + pedals? I just lost my old settings when i reformatted my hard drive.
AH sure looks pretty! i had a flew flights this morning, the scenery looks amazing in comparison how it looked nearly 2 years ago.
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Originally posted by Citabria
and they are all hookedup to the motherboard usb ports
Go to a powered USB hub Fester. I had alot of problems running them from the main usb's on the motherboard. Did some checking and even e-mailed Saitek and did some checks on gaming forums and was told by them all that the Saitek X45 & X52 sticks need more power.... I shrugged my shoulders, bought a powered USB hub for about $20. I uninstalled the Saitek software, plugged in the stick, did not install anything for it and started AH. In there I programmed everything in the game... have had no problems since.
I am sure someone already said to get a powered hub, but it is 7 pages long and I have an attention span of a goldfish.....
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Heh, that was the recommended next step, and it worked. ;)
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Originally posted by Xasthur
I would be very annoyed if I found out that a product I bought 'new' was a return from another country.
As a matter of fact, I'd go a on crusade against the company and boicott them.
Surely that's against the law?
If a product is sold as 'new' it should be in brand new condition... not a re-package return...?
Dell lost a big class action lawsuit about 15 or so years ago because they repaired/refurbished returned computers and then sold them as "new".
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You guys should check Ebay for a Sidewinder precision pro usb. I don't know that there are any on there currently, but I have found 3 of them over the last year.....brand new - (gave 2 of them to family)
It may be worth a shot...:aok
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Personally, i am pleased that Fester was having issues with his controls and very unhappy that the CH rep showed up... With his issue resolved the rest of us dweebs have another threat to worry about in the virtual skies...
:noid
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I use x-53 and Saitek pedals. They have been rock solid for me. No glitches, no weirdness, and I only have to recalibrate them maybe once every 2 months.
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I think I need to buy a powered usb hub!
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Originally posted by jaxxo
i was so happy when my ch stick showed up in the mail...after a week it now holds up books on the top shelf.....i use the logicrap, its great for 3 months or so
are you kiding my longiteck is great i have had it for like 3 years and they work ok right now they have a small dead zone where it wobles i think it has a problem with the stableiser thing it worked great for like 2 years
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If I remember correctly from reading the forums at the CH-Hangar, CH had always recommended to use a PCI USB card w/ an Intel chipset onboard with their USB stuff for all the reasons being stated. But with the quality of USB hubs ever increasing (Belkin, D-Link, etc) they are becoming more popular due to their versatility & price. I myself have an old discontinued Belkin ExpressBus USB 1.1 spec 4-port USB hub that I bought when I got my CH USB setup back in 2000 because Belkin had built this hub w/ joysticks in mind (was stated on the package by Belkin) & since CH USB products were designed around the USB 1.1 spec then (don't know about now) I bought it---& have never been disappointed since. FWIW I have always ran this hub in bus-power mode w/o issue but I might just try it in self-power mode to see if it makes a difference---if I can find the adapter!
:)
PLease hear what Skuzzy posted as the VR's on your box's motherboard along w/ the USB controller(s) & your PS have a LOT to say about how well USB works.
I would also like to add: Unless you're using USB peripherials that NEED the USB 2.0 spec to work well, do yourself a favor & shut down the USB 2.0 USB controller on your motherboard & use the legacy USB (1.1) controller only. Your sticks will love you for it.
:D