Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BaldEagl on May 20, 2007, 12:40:21 PM
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First of all I fly/drive a lot of different planes/vehicles (over 60 during the past 3 months) so there are a lot that I haven't "mastered" however my general experience with flight sims allows me to do better than average in almost all of them. I can quickly pick up on the obvious attributes and weaknesses but I'm usually missing the fine points that make someone exceptional in a given plane and sometimes I'm just dowright bad.
Such was the case Friday night. I was flying a P-47D-25, my favorite P-47. I know that the P-47's dive well, have a good gun package for not having cannons and they zoom climb well out of a dive due to their mass and inertia. I also know the 25 can turn reasonably well... better than most give it credit for but if you do it too much you turn into a wallowing pile of mush.
So Friday night I was up in a D-25 headed to a friendly base with only enemy dar-bar indicating more than a single bogey but not a huge number. I arrived at 20K thinking I'd start high and work my way down as needed.
On arrival I met a 109 (I think it was a G-14) and a P-51D slightly higher than me. I WEP'd to grab a little additional alt before the merge but so did the 109. We merged and I went about 4-5 turns with them when I realized I was losing E, losing position to the 51 and the 109 was climbing nearby so I decided to see If they would follow me into a dive or retain their alt.
I nosed down just enough to stay ahead of the P-51 and he followed me down about 1K back. The 109 nosed down as well and was following about 3K back. Since I was almost right over our base I decided to accelerate the dive, gain seperation and hope that as I crossed past the field they would break off and I'd extend.
I didn't pass the field close enough to activate the ack. The Pony was now about 2K back and the 109 had broken his dive and was perched 5-6K above and behind me.
With the 109 already above me I didn't trust my zoom climb ability to overcome his alt plus the general climbing ability of the 109's so I decided to just extend away on the deck. Seeing that i was extending the 109 came back after me in a dive and the P-51 was also starting to close again.
Knowing I could probably out-turn the P-51 and that, given his dive speed, I'd probably be able to out-turn the 109 also I waited until they were ~1K back, hit WEP and reversed into a full run for the field. As the ack lit up they both broke off.
I kept extending out short distances, would get their attention, turn back to the field, extend the other direction and repeat repeat repeat trying to sucker them into the field ack. I figured that if they were going to try to get me to turn fight with them then at least I'd give myself some help to even it up a bit.
Finally after about 3 rounds of this the 109 got greedy and flew into the ack. Dead. I got the kill.
I was surprised to see it was a guy with over 5 K/D and over 2 K/S. I guess everyone gets greedy and impatient.
Late in the game as this was going on another fiendly had upped and as soon as the 109 went down the P-51 high-tailed it out of there, my countryman in tow.
I flew off in a different direction, later getting two "legitimate" kills and two assists and landed safely with 3 kills and 2 assists.
Now I always see so many (especially my "veteran" peers) complaining about runners and particularily about ack runners (something I rarely do but felt I was playing the hand dealt to me on this occasion) that I thought I'd post this and ask the question; What would YOU have done.
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For me, it depends on other factors as well. I generally do not fly the P47. If I'm in a fighter sweep, I generally enjoy the 190A8 or some of the lower end 109 models. In addition, the base status also affects my judgement. If the base is really not unders attack by the terrible 'congo' line, I would have probably dived away and tried to fight another day. But if the base is under heavy attack, I generally try and stay for the fight, even if I'm outnumbered or out 'E'd.' Basically if I get shot down, hopefully some friendlies can jump on them while I'm reupping. However, if I'm in base defense mode, I'll take a turn and burner or a 109 F-4.
So my situation for me, I'm flying against a P51 and 109G14 co-alt and I'm alone in a 190A8. Since the A8 is a pig and does not have a bag of tricks I'm limited if I do not have any sort of advantage. Both the P51 and 109 are faster and turn a lot better. I can roll, however, I can only roll so many times.
If I'm going to fight, I have to make it count on the first or second pass, use my 30mm to get a hit and work on the other fighter. Since I'm in a 'weaker' plane (lets not kid ourselves) I'm go for the HO if they come at me. Mainly because I'll try and land a few 30mm shots in and make them go poof! Lets say I miss on the HO, I'll do a split S and hopefully have enough E to manuever in behind the enemy fighter. I have to work quickly because both fighters can out turn and out climb me. If I cannot get a shot on the 2nd pass (the 2nd fighter is probably right on my 6 at this time) I'll do another split S and dive away to safety.
Now let's say the follow. They have the faster planes and it's only a matter of time before they are in range and I'm closing in on the deck. My last bag of tricks I'll take from Top Gun. Full Rudder, engine off and pray they don't see me slowing down. If they overshoot, I may bave a chance to WEP it quick and nose up and land a few 20 or 30mm shots as they pass overhead.
By this time, if I'm sub 200 mph, my plane is become a shaken baby syndrome. So if I haven't shot down any of my opponents yet and I have no friendlies in the area, I would head for the nearest field.
It's a tough plane to fly, and a big underdog most of the time. But builds great perk points.
Boom n Zoom.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Now I always see so many (especially my "veteran" peers) complaining about runners and particularily about ack runners (something I rarely do but felt I was playing the hand dealt to me on this occasion) that I thought I'd post this and ask the question; What would YOU have done.
Your original dive was a great idea. Once the 51 was separated from the 109, it was time to turn and fight the 51, to try to get him before the 109 came down again.
Flying into and out of the ack really doesn't do much to improve the fight, unless you're expecting a friend to show up. Sooner or later someone is going to get bored enough to make an error, I guess, and that's what happened. For me, at least, I'd rather have the fight, lose it if I must, and come up for another than spend the time dodging in and out of the ack.
- oldman (hey, you asked!)
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Hi,
since a 1 vs 2 fight is rather hopeless, specialy with that combination of enemys, it was/is a absolut valid tactic to use the AAA as "wingi". A 6k seperation of course dont give you enough time to outmanouver a P51 who is on your tail(or the pilot dont have any skill)
Its not your fault that they failed to deack that base.
People who have a superior plane or tactical advantage often complain about running enemys, while the same guys also like to use words like "alt monkey" and "Spitdweeb", if they are in disadvantage.
Not to use the aaa as "wingi" is like to expect from the others not to make teamfight.
This arguments might be valid in a H2H FFA game, but imho not in a teamgame.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Why are you asking this?You flew the plane to it's and your abilities,you didn't HO,and you didn't vulch!You earned two well deserved kills,pat yourself on the back.
They died trying to force their battle on you,you won because you forced yours' on them.:aok
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I would have mixed it with them.
What does it matter if they would have killed you after a good fight? Worse score? Or are you just sensitive of your binary life? :huh
Well, at least that way you do not need to wonder why people choose not to salute you...
For Chrissakes, it's MA! If you lose a life get a new one! Save the fancy life saving tricks to ToD or events where life has other meaning than just a number in "killed" section.
-C+
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Your original dive was a great idea. Once the 51 was separated from the 109, it was time to turn and fight the 51, to try to get him before the 109 came down again.
Good point. While the 109 was loitering above and behind me I might have had the time to go a couple of turns with the 51. After that E would be draining and the 109 would have been arriving so it would have had to been a quick kill.
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Yucca woulda got pwnt.
:D
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During my short amount of time in the MA, it's my experience that being aggressive when you're outnumbered 2v1 or 3v1 is the way to go. If you're flying to not get shot down, rather than flying to shoot other people down, you won't have as much success. The sooner you can knock one of them out of the fight the better.
Also, if you're at the point in the fight where you know it's lost if you continue, and you need to extend for another merge, don't drag them to ack. Fly to some spot out in the middle of nowhere and make your stand.
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It was cheap for him to use ack, but it wasn't cheap for his opponents to go 2v1?
Is it okay if he uses guns to fight back? Or should he fly straight and level in a C47 from now on?
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Dude werent u like at 20k to begin with?
47's pwn 109's up there if flown correctly...
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Originally posted by Platano
Dude werent u like at 20k to begin with?
47's pwn 109's up there if flown correctly...
Yes, that's why I started out by saying that with all the planes I fly there are a lot that I haven't "mastered".
The 109 did disengage to grab some alt/E but the pony was gaining angles on me as I bled E turning which is when i decided to try the dive.
If you've got some tips on high-alt fighting in the P-47's I'd love to hear them (part of the reason for my post).
BTW, I never considered flaps in the thin air at 20K as i would have near the deck. Would this have been a viable option in this plane at that alt? If so I may have been able to finish off the Pony as the 109 climbed out. I just thought of this now. Had i thought of it then I guess I would have at least tried it.
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Probably would have helped, had you used them.
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Hi,
20k is still a very good altitude for a P51 and 109, the P47 start to shine good above 24k.
In that high alt dogfights are somewhat like in slow motion, its not that easy to lure someone, whi fly an advanced plane, into a mistake. Therefor, once you have someone behind you its difficult.
If Tempest, La7 or plilots with the currently faster plane run for aaa, its not that nice, cause they can gain distance and altitude without, but realy, noone can force anyone to fly into aaa, its simply stupid.
In your case, you dont had any advantage over the two oponents, if you was able to stay alive, long enough to make them greedy enough to make this mistake, i only can say WTG.
We simulate aircombat here, one main part is to stay alive. At least for me its a major aspect, if i dont would care about it and always would fight to death, even in absolut hopeless situations, i would miss big parts of the immersion.
Its also not very satisfying to have oponents, who go into a fight without a real possibility to win. I always think "what a stupid guy and what a cheap kill for me".
Greetings,
Knegel
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You lost me at "I arrived at 20k". You won't find me above 8k.
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I don't see anything wrong with it. You had two guys on 1 of you, 1 109 perched high like a buzzard. I wouldn't be looking forward to fighting the 109 on the deck after having turn fought the mustang, or having to avoid his repeated bnz attacks while fighting the 51. You played the hand that was dealt and did quite well i might add. I think people who talk about ack runners and such, are talking about when there's two guys around, no one in sight, both flying spitfires, and the guy keeps runing through the ack. That's a pretty fair contest, or when your in a 190 on the deck and a 51 starts running from you, i'd say that's a pretty fair contest. Bottom line it's okay when the odds are stacked against you and your trying to even the odds, i don't mind a guy doing that, just says he's playing his tactics well, quodos for him. But when your on the deck in a 38, the other guys in a LA-7 and he starts running through ack, it's a little annoying. I'm thinking at this point come on man you got a reasonable chance of killing me what are you running for? I think they're talking bout those guys, so your cool, no problem. ..... Nice job by the way, pretty smart flying. :cool:
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I think that you used your base abilities to your advantage, when they say that you are a hacker, and a cheater, and all that stuff. Well, all you did is make it fair! That's all. Now, what I would have done is I would do the trick that Heavyweight and Lightwieght planes, usually the Spitfire XI, I would nose up and stall, let the others follow, and as they are behind you, you switch positions and be on his 6.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Yes, that's why I started out by saying that with all the planes I fly there are a lot that I haven't "mastered".
The 109 did disengage to grab some alt/E but the pony was gaining angles on me as I bled E turning which is when i decided to try the dive.
If you've got some tips on high-alt fighting in the P-47's I'd love to hear them (part of the reason for my post).
BTW, I never considered flaps in the thin air at 20K as i would have near the deck. Would this have been a viable option in this plane at that alt? If so I may have been able to finish off the Pony as the 109 climbed out. I just thought of this now. Had i thought of it then I guess I would have at least tried it.
You can deploy flaps at 20k or higher. That's one of the advantages of the P-47s and P-51, being able to begin getting flaps out at 400 mph. At higher altitudes, you need to pay close attention to your indicated air speed. Everything centers on your speed. Stall speed, as well as flap deployment speed is based upon IAS, not TAS. Keep that in mind.
You can actually practice this in the Training Arena. I have set up a 30k base with the ETO plane set. You can take off from the field or air spawn to two different areas of the map. The field is A3, a bishop base.
My regards,
Widewing
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I always seem to arrive in similar situations just back from afk/autoclimb, going about 190 mph, and the other guy(s) are ALWAYS 2-3k above. Then I proceed to curse myself for not leveling out WAY before, that I might have some E to fight with. My skill level isnt nearly as high as some who've commented here, but I don't see what you could have done other than the course you chose---either the G14 OR the 51 could have been a good fight, but 109 climbs better than anything, and the cherry-pickin salamander (just guessing:D ) would have nailed ya while ya were dealing with the 51. Aside from that, hang in the ack, or die out at sea.
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Sounds like you did fine BaldEagl, but there are a few things I would have changed. ('Course, I mighta died with no kills, though, hehe).
When approaching higher cons like that, I don't climb, and I don't WEP. I level for speed, maybe even nose down slightly, briefly, to get to top speed. Don't accel so fast that you are above top speed though, or you'll just have wasted a precious bit of E. My goal is to come in with speed, but lower, to look "helpless", all the while holding more E than is apparant (hiding E). My altitude may be 12K, but my speed allows me to bump up higher at will, making my "useful" altitude closer to 14K. Save your WEP, you'll need it at some point.
Next, I approach the cons, but off to the side a bit, maybe 3-4K out. Don't go under them, make them come to you. My goal here is to get them to chase me. I'm fast, so they need to dive a bit to keep up. Ideally, I want a tail chase that will cause them to drop to my level, to where our speeds equalize. If successful, that will have stolen their alt advantage. I can deal with their positional advantage easier than their alt advantage. That tail chase will burn his E advantage.
Normally, this won't work immediately. They will dive to catch you, and will be faster, so will catch you. When I see them about 2k back, gaining, I turn to the side (usually right). I want them approaching me perpendicularly, or nearly so, so that they are closing fast. Make your turn fairly gentle, but tightening a bit as you go through it. He's faster, so will need to pull harder to stay with you, burning his E. As you finish your 90-100 degree right turn, roll level, and watch him out the side. When he hits D600, pause for a split second, then pull up slightly and roll left.(Barrel roll defense). If he doesn't go for the shot, but instead yo-yo's up, you need to go straight instead (no barrel roll) He'll go up, and then turn to dive back onto your six again. Repeat this a few times and he will be nearly CO-E. Keep your moves gentle, but don't get hit. I'm not trying for shots during my barrel rolls yet, just looking to dodge their shots and save my E. Later, that may change. Get too aggressive too soon, and I usually die.
If I can turn it Co-E, my next move is often to drop a bit (1000 ft) to get speed, and try to get them to attack downward, while I dodge upward on a more or less nose-nose merge. If they fall for it, I will now be above them :) If one of them falls for it, but not the other, I devote my effort to the top guy, and often the lower one is out of the fight.
I don't get ultra aggressive against two higher cons. I avoid slowing down, and avoid Rolling Scissors, etc. Try to make your moves smooth, and subtle, saving E. Try to make them chase you, but try to make them turn a bit more than you. If they yo-yo up and left, you go right, etc. Try to keep the altitude you do have, and keep your speed.
If they fly tight together (like wingmen), I treat them like one enemy- but like a longer/wider enemy than normal. If one stays high, I try to take the fight away from him. Make him work to stay above you (he'll have to dive a bit to keep fast enough to maintain his position). If one stays high, I will play the game as described, but will watch for a weakness in the lower con that will allow me to get ultra-aggressive with him, and hopefully kill him very fast, before his buddy can dive in to save him. Normally this is through a few subtle dodges, followed by an aggressive reversal.
Even though this burns your E, The "savior" will generally be streaking in with so much speed that he is easy to dodge. And if you don't kill the first guy, he often pulls so hard to dodge your un-expected reversal that he will be lower than you anyway.
The trick (for me at least), is to stay fast, and to stay as high as I can throughout the fight. I avoid the deck, because once you're there you're out of options. If anything I will try to gain or maintain my height whenever possible.
Keep your speed, make them burn their E by making them go too fast and chase you. Try to equalize the E-states, and seperate the wingmen. If you can sucker them into giving up their E, you just need to sucker them into giving up their angles too. Don't get to aggressive, or fixated on one plane for your shots, but take your shots when you can, and don't miss.
I do die alot this way though, hehe.
MtnMan
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Mtn man your giving away one of my favorite moves. If you do it right sometimes you can get a shot as they go by. Guys with that much speed cannot turn that hard, when i make diving attacks i usually keep speed down enough to maybe get a shot, but also fast enough to get away. That's a classic maneaver there Mtnman and as i remember your pretty scary in that Corsair, opened my eyes a few times in TA. Listen to him guys he knows what he's talking about. :D