Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Major Biggles on May 20, 2007, 01:48:04 PM
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anyone here into collecting swords at all?
i used to fence and practise archery quite a lot, so i have a longbow and various things, including a sword, but i've been looking into expanding my collection a little. i was wondering if anyone else here has an interest in any of this kind of stuff? :)
i currently own a paul chen practical plus katana, but have been looking into albion armouries' european stuff. if anyone has any kind of experience with collecting swords and could offer some advice it would be way cool :). i'd also love to here what other people own if so... :)
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I don't have the money to get into high end collection right now, but I have a diverse collection of stuff on the more practical end of the price spectrum.
Especially check out the Ebay seller handmadesword. They sell Masahiro Katana, base models starting at $1 on auction. I got mine (carbon steel mind you) for $55, 20 of that shipping. They have nicer models too, coming with display cases and the like. It's nothing fancy, but its a damn nice blade for the price, and its real, not stainless. I really like their tsubas too.
You may already know this, but you want to avoid stainless steel, unless you just plan on getting something to look nice on you wall, and if you're collecting stainless doesn't make any sense anyway. If it says 440 on it wave off. You want something in a 10xx high carbon steel. Masahiro, for instance, uses several grades/alloys depending on how nice the sword is. They also use a harder composite along their edges to preserve sharpness, with a softer grade for the rest of the blade to preserve sword flex.
Please let me know if you find any other good places. I really need a Gladius if you come across one. I've got my eye on this awesome carbon steel halberd too.
Also, you can get really cheap longbows from woodbows.com. Again nothing fancy, but very functional. I've seen their unfinished bows (hell I bought one) on ebay really cheap when they have an overstock. It's got a crack now, so I need a new one, but I got many ends out of it.
Good luck!
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Way back when when I was into it I used to shop here a lot:
Museum Replicas (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/Home.aspx)
I know of another interesting website but it's VERY high end swords. I will see if I can find it and post it later.
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I'm looking to really get into fencing. I took a class this past semester and learned the Foil. I want to learn the Saber though, I think it should be fun.
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I used to fence. Great fun. I TRY to collect swords, but my parents arent too fond of it. My girlfriend buys me old European Rapiers though :D
One thing, both of us are having trouble finding real quality stuff. By that I mean something SHARP, something thats actually gonna cut stuff. Im not looking for a fancy display case thing, I want a sword I can pick up and actually USE. I noticed you mentioned the type of steel to look for, are there any other things? Heres a blade im looking at buying myself as a congratulations (I earned my wings! :D), is it worth the money?
Black Wrap Rapier (http://budk.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_BK500)
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Serenity,
Masahiro would give you a really awesome and functional sword (they do hold an edge well), but they are of a Japanese style so they might not appeal to you.
The rapier looks nice, and would be a nifty wall hanger but you DO NOT WANT TO START SWINGING IT AT ANYTHING. Sorry to shout, but its a safety issue. Stainless steel is cheaper to make, and doesn't rust so it takes a lot less care, but it is also brittle and will not hold up to repeated, or even one really heavy blow. Chop something with this, or thrust as it was intended and you risk shattering it, having pieces fly off and even getting shards flying a shrapnel pattern. Don't plan on it being functional.
Most often if you see something under $200 its stainless. I'm still almost not believing the price/quality of Masahiro except that I own one myself and can say it's really awesome. The weight even gives it away, and it has gone through some good sized branches.
Here's why you want to avoid 440:
Stainless + Idiot = This funny video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e77oXjFkIs)
Note: 3 piece set with stand, $44.95
440 stainless
Six inch chunk breaks off the end and catches him in the ribs.
these are not 'practice katanas'
I assume I don't have to tell you not to play with weapons if you don't know what you're doing, but someone should have told that kid. Smacking the flat side of a sword isn't advisable either.
I don't know what the rapier market is like, nor where to point you for a good one, but keep this stuff in mind when you plan a usage for any new blade. Sometimes its fun to just get something cheap to swing at the air in your living room, something you don't have to worry about hand oils or other factors that good steel brings. The rapier you linked would be good for that, just don't strike anything with it. It might be able to take $129.00 at retail, but the price they offer shows how much it costs to produce.
$60 isn't much to spend on a durable toy!
(http://68thlightninglancers.com/joomla/components/com_clan_members/userfiles/64/image/68hawk2.JPG)
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Yeah, im not terribly fond of the asian swords. Rapiers are my love.
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Originally posted by Serenity
I used to fence. Great fun. I TRY to collect swords, but my parents arent too fond of it. My girlfriend buys me old European Rapiers though :D
One thing, both of us are having trouble finding real quality stuff. By that I mean something SHARP, something thats actually gonna cut stuff. Im not looking for a fancy display case thing, I want a sword I can pick up and actually USE. I noticed you mentioned the type of steel to look for, are there any other things? Heres a blade im looking at buying myself as a congratulations (I earned my wings! :D), is it worth the money?
Black Wrap Rapier (http://budk.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_BK500)
hmmmm, it's stainless.
when going for swords, it needs to be decent carbon steel if you want some functionality. i personally hate the silly pricey stainless steel fantasy things, i go for fully functional quality all the time, hence why all i have at the moment is a practical plus kat (full tang, properly forged carbon steel). good swords = good money, but are well worth it.
katana wise, for quality and price you want to take a look at the paul chen range. european wise, from what i've read, you want to go with these guys:
Albion Armouries (http://www.albion-swords.com/)
great quality custom made swords, fully functional and historic. rapiers may be harder, but you won't find a sharp rapier, they're designed purely for thrusting, they won't have much of an edge.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
hmmmm, it's stainless.
when going for swords, it needs to be decent carbon steel if you want some functionality. i personally hate the silly pricey stainless steel fantasy things, i go for fully functional quality all the time, hence why all i have at the moment is a practical plus kat (full tang, properly forged carbon steel). good swords = good money, but are well worth it.
katana wise, for quality and price you want to take a look at the paul chen range. european wise, from what i've read, you want to go with these guys:
Albion Armouries (http://www.albion-swords.com/)
great quality custom made swords, fully functional and historic. rapiers may be harder, but you won't find a sharp rapier, they're designed purely for thrusting, they won't have much of an edge.
By sharp I mean I dont want something rounded, with blunt edges for little kids. Thanks!
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Originally posted by Serenity
By sharp I mean I dont want something rounded, with blunt edges for little kids. Thanks!
hmm i looked about too, i also love rapiers, and i don't think you'll find a decent one without it being a custom job, or atleast one with a hefty pricetag :(
that one you found is cool though. give those guys a call and ask about the tang, that's what's most important. post here what they say :aok
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Okay. Im a complete dolt when it comes to swords, I just like them. So, what should I ask specifically about the tang?
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http://www.knightsedge.com/
i've ordered from them before.
They have dull swords, and full blown combat replicas .
Have fun
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:O SWEEEEEEET!!!!! :O (http://www.knightsedge.com/swords/german-landsknecht-flamberge-sword.htm)
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The tang is also really important. Its the part of the blade that extends into the handle.
Good ones will be very sturdy and extend fully through the handle, full tang.
Others only go halfway, or even are very small and flimsy, made only for cheapness. These are usually called rat tangs and they suck. Can't think of anything more embarrassing than for a sword to break at the hilt.
Also check fit between the tang and the handle. Check to see how its secured, rivets, screws, tied on, who knows. Is it tightly fit or is it loose? This is also often a point where one can find errors in workmanship that often go overlooked when browsing the cheapies. The blade might be really shiny, but often you'll see behind the curtain at this point.
Those other links they brought are awesome. Good find you guys! Please help me if I missed stuff above.
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Originally posted by Serenity
:O SWEEEEEEET!!!!! :O (http://www.knightsedge.com/swords/german-landsknecht-flamberge-sword.htm)
Looks like good quality workmanship and materials.
Still, most large swords like this, in Europe and all the way to Japan (Odachi) had mostly just a ceremonial function and saw limited use on the battlefield. At least as far as I've heard. The Scottish Claymore is an exception, but don't take any points on it's usage from Mel Gibson.
I WILL have a Claymore for my collection some day....gotta get that Gladius first though.
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Here's the other website.
My Armory (http://www.myarmoury.com/reviews.html)
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Good:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FUNCTIONAL-SWEPT-HILT-RAPIER-Sword-Bone-Hndle-Paul-Chen_W0QQitemZ140118029245QQihZ004QQcategoryZ43340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/MORTUARY-HILT-SWORD-RAPIER-Functional-Steel-Paul-Chen_W0QQitemZ140118061426QQihZ004QQcategoryZ135QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Questionable(bad):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Carbon-steel-Rapier-sword-for-pirate-or-musketeer_W0QQitemZ300111258696QQihZ020QQcategoryZ43340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(says stainless but they think its not?)
Watch Out!(ugly):
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-45-Rapier-Renaissance-Sword-w-Leather-Scabbard_W0QQitemZ320115623015QQihZ011QQcategoryZ43340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-HAND-CAST-SILVER-RAPIER-THE-MOST-POPULAR-WE-HAVE_W0QQitemZ170111956165QQihZ007QQcategoryZ43337QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/39-Inch-Spanish-Rapier-Sword-Ornate-Hilt-and-Cloth-Bag_W0QQitemZ300112873764QQihZ020QQcategoryZ20272QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(no mention of steel type at all)
Neat:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hand-Cup-Rapier-Buckler-Shield_W0QQitemZ300111307127QQihZ020QQcategoryZ43217QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(neat but have other questionable auctions)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leather-Sword-Frog-Hanger-for-Renaissance-Rapier-Sword_W0QQitemZ160116913639QQihZ006QQcategoryZ41181QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Cheaper price for Serenity(looks like the same one):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Spirital-Wrap-Rapier-Sword-Swept-Hilt-Clamshell-W-Scab_W0QQitemZ320115880088QQihZ011QQcategoryZ43340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
anyone here into collecting swords at all?
...
Buddy of mine at work is a blacksmith... makes quality swords, knives, and stuff you can shave with. He made a wakazashi out of Damascus steel for me that I need to pick up next week.
If anyone's interested, I'll post his address tomorrow.
Oh, he's into that Mountain Man reenacting stuff with flinchlocks, axes, and other old guy stuff too.
Me... I'm more into the Cowboy Action Shooting that SASS and COWS do. Though I enjoy the longbow and recurve from time to time
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I wanna see pics Odee! :D
Please?
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at this point i own the "paul chen" tiger katana,plus a ww2 folded navy katana,
two crazy prettythang bat winged battle axes,
at one point i owned, the shinto katana "paul chen"
miyamoto musashi katana "paul chen"
blind fury
conan sword
2000 katana "junk"
hero axe by "paul chen"
plus far to many "junk" ones to list.
the posts in here about the steel are mostly right, if you want a "Functional" sword do not get stainless steel. ALL stainless steel swords are junk.
the katana is by far the greatest sword ever created by man, the only sword that comes close is the, pattern welded broadswords.
i know some people think this is untrue, and thats cool. ive been into swords for many years, and have owned quit a few. Ive studied the history of swords in all cultures.
i read in another post that a samurai wouldn't stand a chance against a fully armoured European knight. thats crazy, it is the other way around.
imagine a true katana blade that is so sharp,saying "its sharp enough to shave with" is an understatement. until you see one up close and see it shave paper, you cant appreciate truly what there capable of. now you might think well if its so sharp, then it must be brittle, cuz we all know the harder the steel the sharper you can make it, in the same, the more brittle it is. Thats why you can take a scalpel and break it between your fingers.BUT the japanese found a way to overcome that, they differentially heat treated the blade useing clay, so the edge is extremely hard while the body of the sword remained soft, {my paul chen tiger edge measures 60 on the rockwell scale while the back is 45,} that is the wavy pattern near the edge running up the blade, its called hamon line or in japanese "turbulent sea".
in the hands of a master {all samuria were} a sword like that could and would cut through metal armour quit easily. the knight would feel confident in his armour and try to stand against the samurai, who would draw his sword make his killing stroke, resheath is sword,in the space of one breath.
but that, of corse is just my opinion:cool:
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Thanks for that you tube link. This was on it too. LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yVM8KljypI
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Serenity, rapiers give you a false sense of security, and they are really more for the effeminate persons. i don't think you would want to associate yourself with one, unless you wear ruffled sleeves.
one time i pulled up to a dock in my sailboat, and some French dude tried to pick a sword fight with me and started trying to make weak little jabs at me with a rapier.
i pulled out my cutless and lopped his arm off just like that. he just stood there blinking. i pushed him into the bay and tied up my boat, and that was that.
you can pick up a used cutlasses cheap, just look around a pirate junkyard. don't ask for a rapier in there or they will look at you kinda funny.
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Serenity was talking about this kind of cutlass:
(http://www.automobile-riekmann.com/verkauf/oldsmobile_cutlass_1972_rot_l.jpg)
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So, would it be considered a concealed weapon if you wore one on a scabbard on your back while riding your motorcycle?
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So, would it be considered a concealed weapon if you wore one on a scabbard on your back while riding your motorcycle? - Chair
not at all... just make sure the blade is no longer than 3 inches. :D it can be legally used in a regular biker brawl for performing a little sidewalk surgery.
but for the real devil-may-care biker who doesn't give a d*m about legality, we recommend something like the Roman Gladius rigged in a soft leather concealed scabbard holster.
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I'll take "Swords" for 500 Alex
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
I wanna see pics Odee! :D
Please?
I'll try to get some from him. He just made a cd full. Will post when I can.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I'll take "Swords" for 500 Alex
But do you pronounce it "sword" or "sword" like my brother does?
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Hey Odee, what does he charge? Think I could get a nice, quality rapier out of him without going broke?
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Originally posted by Serenity
Hey Odee, what does he charge? Think I could get a nice, quality rapier out of him without going broke?
He's a bit swamped with touring, and orders for custom knives at this time. Guarntees his workmanship for life, and offers free resharpening too.
Still after him for those pics. Typical price for the Damascus steel wakasashi is $200-$350 depending on scabbard type, and grip detail.
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won't you look kinda silly walking around with a sword?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
won't you look kinda silly walking around with a sword?
lazs
'tis better thing that people make a wide path around your silly looking self, than to be accosted and relieved of your coin purse.
Guns are a dime a dozen, but you don't have to reload a sword.
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Laz, until you've walked around with a sword at your belt (and preferably a cape fluttering behind you) you really don't know the feel of 6' tall and bulletproof.
There is just something about having 3 feet of sharp steel hanging at your side.
No you wouldn't want to bring it to a gun fight.
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The Deliverator never pulled that gun in anger, or in fear. He pulled it once in Gila Highlands. Some punks in Gila Highlands, a fancy Burbclave, wanted themselves a delivery, and they didn't want to pay for it. Thought they would impress the Deliverator with a baseball bat. The Deliverator took out his gun, centered its laser doo-hickey on that poised Louisville Slugger, fired it. The recoil was immense, as though the weapon had blown up in his hand. The middle third of the baseball bat turned into a column of burning sawdust accelerating in all directions like a bursting star. Punk ended up holding this bat handle with milky smoke pouring out the end. Stupid look on his face. Didn't get nothing but trouble from the Deliverator.
Since then the Deliverator has kept the gun in the glove compartment and relied, instead, on a matched set of samurai swords, which have always been his weapon of choice anyhow. The punks in Gila Highlands weren't afraid of the gun, so the Deliverator was forced to use it. But swords need no demonstrations.
- Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson
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ghost... I am 6' tall.
odee.. I recon that before I run out of bullets that there will be plenty of swords laying around for me to pick up if I really want one.
The only people I have ever seen with a sword strapped on were those fair guys and they just looked.... gay.
swords are good fantasy fun but... while the movie "blade" and silly snowcrash book work good on a set or in the imagination...
Truth is that if we seen one of those characters on the street walking around we would laugh our butts off.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
ghost... I am 6' tall.
odee.. I recon that before I run out of bullets that there will be plenty of swords laying around for me to pick up if I really want one.
The only people I have ever seen with a sword strapped on were those fair guys and they just looked.... gay.
swords are good fantasy fun but... while the movie "blade" and silly snowcrash book work good on a set or in the imagination...
Truth is that if we seen one of those characters on the street walking around we would laugh our butts off.
lazs
well, you're not exactly going to walk around with a sword, you'd get shot by police, but it's a real pleasure to hold a nice sword, and to own one. i've messed around with guns before, and i promise you, there is nothing that delivers a sense of power more than a sword. it's like wearing a nice ring on your finger, it immediately gives you a sense of grandeur.
you don't buy a sword to look cool, you buy a sword because you want to. you buy a gun for fun/protection, but nothing matches owning a beautifully crafted, real sword.
and if you really know how to use it, it can be a lot of fun sparring with a re-enactment sword, not to mention the conan the barbarian arms you get when you swing a 3 pound length of steel around for an hour :D
fantasy swords are ghey. the guys who buy cheap swords with little devils and crazy blade shapes all over them. you do nothing with them apart from stare at their uselessness, but a real sword on the wall, one that you pick up and defend yourself with if need be is awesome.
someone quoted an article up above which i find quite true. if you have a gun, it's unlikely that you'll shoot someone dead unless you have to, and petty theives know that, but if you pick a big sword up and start swinging, they're gonna run, fast...
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oh and yeah lazs, i'm 6'1" and used to row and play rugby, amongst weight training at school, so i'm fairly well built. a sword however makes you feel so much more powerful. it's so much more graceful that pointing a gun around. any dweeb and point and shoot, but it takes a real man to use a sword to good effect. it's just so much cooler (granted i can't own anything other than a shooting shotgun and smallbore rifles here in the UK)
go to a nice store and find a good quality sword, pick it up and swing it about a bit, and tell me you didn't come out of the store witha big grin ;)
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Yeah but what if the thief makes his savings throw ?
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I own two swords.. well... one is just a 30" bayonet circa 1700's... The other is a small cutlass with a basket hilt from the civil war era.
I would dispute your claim that anyone can "point and shoot" a gun effectively. I would have you handle some of the firearms I have and not walk away with a big grin. the heft of a 44 mag revolver is very confidence inspiring.
To know that you can draw and point shoot at close range or hit a 5 gallon bucket out to 300 yards or so is confidence inspiring. You can also walk around with one and not make a spectacle of yourself.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I own two swords.. well... one is just a 30" bayonet circa 1700's... The other is a small cutlass with a basket hilt from the civil war era.
I would dispute your claim that anyone can "point and shoot" a gun effectively. I would have you handle some of the firearms I have and not walk away with a big grin. the heft of a 44 mag revolver is very confidence inspiring.
To know that you can draw and point shoot at close range or hit a 5 gallon bucket out to 300 yards or so is confidence inspiring. You can also walk around with one and not make a spectacle of yourself.
lazs
true. i've fired a lot of stuff in my visits to the states, high cal revolovers rifles and machine guns etc. one crazy dude in nevada even offered to let me shoot an RPG at an old car out on a ranch for $1000 :lol i'm a good shot though, have been shooting rifles and things since i was a kiddo. i'm reminded of the indiana jones scene :D
seriously though, there isn't any gun that can rival a nice sword for class and wow factor apart from an beautiful old beretta over & under :p
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Lazs has a good point to not bring a knife to a gunfight.
Still, the study of the sword is as important to our understanding of history as is the study of the gun.
I wouldn't count it as a carrying weapon for personal defense, but if any of my neighbors are ever getting harassed it gives me an extra layer of something to bring to the problem. I could get in big trouble for bringing a rifle on someone who is technically unarmed, even if they're 8 ft tall.
First choice is actually my Sai, as they are purely a defensive weapon and, without being a sharp weapon I can easily claim that they were not for bringing deadly force. It's a little harder to subdue with a blade.
Lazs is also right that firearms take lots of practice too, and are not as easy as many people like to believe. In terms of feelings of security, a nice .45 would make me feel better than having a sword, but it still can't beat the sense of history, the sense of mysticism, and the sense of heritage that an ancient implement carries with it.
Don't need a permit to carry a sword though, at least not in CO. Actually got one of mine into the bar a couple years ago on Halloween. Take a guess how many chicks asked me, "is that real," "yes" "can I see it?" "no". Like I'm going to draw it in the middle of a bar. My gunstock warclub tends to get the same effect.
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[size=10]BEHOLD THE SWORD OF POWER! BEHOLD THE SWORD OF KAR'E'HANA'A'A'AH!!!![/SIZE]
(http://www.ironliege.com/Graphics/NONLatexWeapons/NLDevistator.gif)
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
seriously though, there isn't any gun that can rival a nice sword for class and wow factor apart from an beautiful old beretta over & under :p
Humbug to that. There's some sweet pistols out there.
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/asdf/1040L.jpg)
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/asdf/broomhandle5.jpg)
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/asdf/Infinity_1911.jpg)
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ink,
Sorry man but I gotta call you out, because I think you're buying into a couple myths about Samurai.
The Katana is one of the finest achievements in sword making, but it is not the greatest in every respect. Remember that every weapon is a tool, and every tool is designed with a specific purpose. No tool can serve every purpose.
Japan has relatively little iron ore deposits, and what it has is largely of a lesser quality than can be found through mining or trade on the continental block of the old world. This is one of the reasons why Japanese armor never went over to full plate like in Europe, but remained more a composite of wood, bone, leather, some metal, and other things. It also left them lighter and more mobile, contributing to their difference of style from European heavy combat.
The truly awesome achievement of the Katana was to create such an amazing sword from such awful material stocks. For sharpness I would probably agree that it is unmatched, but then again the chromium edged swords they just pulled out of that tomb in china are still sharp today. One must remember at this point that most technological and much cultural development in Japan was taken from China. One can even find this evident in the multiple translations of "Kara-te", which I'm told can mean either "empty hands" or "Chinese hands", Chinese in this case being synonymous with 'good'. Don't quote me on the translation though.
Would this blade have been able to stand up to the plate armor of Europe? I don't know. I've never seen anyone swing one against armor before. Late medieval European swords mostly began to take the shape of long thrusting blades, something the Katana does well but not excellently. If not long thrusting, European weapons went a little more towards crushing, like maces and such. I can't see a Katana fracturing good plate armor, or punching through it like a war hammer. Getting a Katana in the chinks of good armor might be hard. But would a fully armored, visored Knight be able to even hit a bouncing Samurai?
This leads us to compare the skill sets and fighting styles of the two worlds. It is often problematic to draw parallels with feudal Europe and 'feudal' Japan.
Still, both Nobles(as opposed to just knights) in Europe and Samurai in Japan represent the upper class rulers of society. Aristocrat=Samurai, not Knight=Samurai. Both respective classes got their start as a military class, but depending on what time period you're talking about for both they might not all be warriors. Many Samurai later on in Tokugawa Japan were more administrators and bureaucrats than anything else, and though allowed to wear swords could not be considered expert swordsmen. Same goes for Europe at varying times. One of the few good points about The Last Samurai is that it shows the less martial minded coming out on top of the Meiji Restoration when the martial class itself was abolished.
And what of skills? While the well trained Samurai were certainly masters of their domain, so too were the European warriors. Anyone who sits around all day training for battle is going to get pretty good at it. This also explains the predominance of professional military forces today. There are some interesting Italian unarmed fighting styles whose names escape me that even have a lot of parallel with Jujitsu and some of the Eastern styles.
In short, put two good warriors in a room and you should sell tickets. It would come down to the two individuals, and maybe just to one crucial mistake. Kinda like a dogfight?
Remember too that Iaido is the specific discipline of the draw-cut-return that you describe, and wouldn't necessarily have been practiced by everyone. If known, it was more a reaction to an attack, and not a state to be seen as prepared for battle. A Samurai probably would have drawn his sword before engaging if given the chance. I do love that one Kurosawa scene in Seven Samurai though.
Now if only I could find time to lean to use mine better. :aok
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great post hawk.
hawk is very right ink, i highly doubt a kat could do much to a fully armoured european knight. in the early medieval period, european and viking swords were wide, flat and very sharp, with long fullers, designed for slashing and cutting. they may not have had the perfected edge of the differentialy high treated katanas (which didn't properly exist at this point in time, 10/11 century), but they were very similar in style.
the katanas started out much like the double edged chinese swords of the time and developed into differentialy heat treated curved blades designed specifically for a powerful cut, which could cut through the relatively weak japanese armour.
this evolution was the opposite in europe. the swords slowly went from broad cutting blades to much longer 1 1/2 handed war swords with less of a fuller, a thinner blade, and a much sharper tip, with a much stronger distal taper. this was to piece the highly advanced armour of the time. as soldiers began to wear chain mail as standard, the swords began to concentrate on strong points to piece it, while keeping their cutting ability.
when full plate came along swords become long thin, and were far more pointy, with much less of an emphasis on edge. this of course culminated in the predecessor of the rapier, which them became a duelling thing.
the two are very different fighting styles. the japanese focused highly on honourable 1 on 1 duels of master swordsmanship. whoever won the swordfight would overcome the relatively weak armour (leather and cloth with iron plates and scales over vital areas).
in europe, especially after the age of chivalry went into decline, the emphasis was on killing your foe quickly, piercing armour with warhammers, war swords, bodkin arrowheads etc.
if you put the two in a fight my money would be on the knight, as his armour would protect from the slashing attack of the katana.
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Good stuff Biggles,
Remember there is a difference between battlefield combat and personal duels outside the pub. From time to time, especially before the Tokugawa period (warring states period), open field combat between armies was much more common. The long period of relative peace established by the Tokugawa Shogunate almost eliminated large armies meeting one another. Depends again on period. I've also been told that Samurai actually preferred the bow, and considered it a more honorable weapon.
Also, the Japanese emphasis on a cut to the neck is partly because it was the weakest point in their armor. Why worry about beheading an unarmored opponent when one can slice many other pieces off?
Consider also that much of what we think we know, possibly some of my above writing, is actually reinvented tradition that the Imperialists drummed up and rehashed for their own purposes during the 1920s and 30s. Bushido is actually more a reinvention, or rather its significance as we take it today. Hara-kiri is also misunderstood, and should better be thought of as ritual execution in which the condemned was forced to take their own life. Wasn't really suicide. How better to enforce 'honor' (discipline). Ronin were masterless samurai, who didn't have to follow anyone's orders, but being a Ronin was being a bum. Where else could they make a living? Samurai means 'one who serves'. Without service a Samurai was nothing.
Samurai could be seen as the ultra-conservatives of their day. The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind as a relatively close European parallel. European Colonialism kind of fits the pattern as well.
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Not to mention that most samurai were gay, as in homosexual.
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by the time the katana was in use (according to wikipedia), europeans had firearms.
the 2 european peasants with a pair of Arquebus would have beat the samurai and knight before either one got close enough to swing there pretty hunks of metal.
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Originally posted by vorticon
by the time the katana was in use (according to wikipedia), europeans had firearms.
the 2 european peasants with a pair of Arquebus would have beat the samurai and knight before either one got close enough to swing there pretty hunks of metal.
IF they hit <- big if.
If not no chance, but the same goes for a good archer or crossbowman. The crossbow comes from China, btw.
Wikipedia usually has good stuff on weapons, and This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana) isn't bad, but it contradicts itself.
"The katana as we know it today with its deep, graceful curve developed sometime around the middle of the Heian period to service the need of the growing military class." (794 to 1185)
"In the 15th and 16th centuries,...As the Sengoku civil wars progressed, the uchigatana evolved into the modern katana, and replaced the tachi as the primary weapon of the samurai, especially when not wearing armor."
I can't really say which is more right, except that there is a difference between the battlefield weapons and the ones they would wear around the house. Still, if the golden age of sword making for the Japanese was the Kamakura period(1185–1333), this was before firearms made any huge mark on European battlefields. A Samurai at this time would have been far more likely to encounter a firearm or incendiary in China than in Europe.
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Originally posted by Suave
Not to mention that most samurai were gay, as in homosexual.
Well some certainly were.
Parallel back to Braveheart and the heir to Longshanks.
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"Still, if the golden age of sword making for the Japanese was the Kamakura period(1185–1333), this was before firearms made any huge mark on European battlefields. "
ah, i was using the first line of the article...
" type of Japanese backsword or longsword (大刀:だいとう, daitō?). In use after the 1400s,"
"
IF they hit <- big if."
true enough.
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awesome points but in all reality,none of us now the "truth". history is written by those who won the wars. i have the tiger katana, its cutting ability is astounding it will cut plate armour, no matter what some of you may think, and the swords of the past are just as good, or better.
i sold a sword i owed to a buddy it was the musashi miyamoto, non folded but heat treated the same as the tiger, he wanted to know what it could do, so he started out cutting smaller stuff, 2 liter bottles, full capped.
two by fours stuff like that.{ i was pissed when he told me this} he was finaly happy when he took his old computer monitor you know the kind it was like ten years old. whatever it was, he cut it in half without chipping the blade, scratched it was all. i wass'nt there, so again what is the truth????
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Originally posted by ink
[..] i have the tiger katana, its cutting ability is astounding it will cut plate armour, no matter what some of you may think, and the swords of the past are just as good, or better.[..]
The point of plate armor is to prevent exactly that. There is a reason why medieval knights were using maces or axes against plate, not swords.
They would literally "not cut it".
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It's a common myth to think that European swords were strictly slashing weapons. This is incorrect and it also explains why most of the swords in Europe at that time were straight with a point for piercing chain and plate armors.
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but not the Katana ;)
I'm not saying swords can't be used for piercing armor, i just dont see how a Katana (or any sword for that matter) will cut through plate.
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A hack flat against good plate seems unlikely to fracture the plate. It could crush bone against chainmail, but probably wouldn't go through a quality shirt.
European swords that the armor was designed to defend against were no joke, and the arms that wielded them were not weak. They were skilled and strong.
ink, I don't mean to cut you down, but I've got to ask, what do "tiger" and "Musashi Myamoto" signify here? I know who Musashi was, I've got his book on my shelf, but he never made swords. They seem like modern marketing terms. I gotta ask as well, have you ever tried them against plate? Cutting a bottle is more about sharpness and technique. Cutting forged plate armor is another matter. I don't mean to say its impossible, but I've never seen it done and it seems highly unlikely. I also don't mean to suggest that your swords are not high quality, but I wonder about the naming.
Others in this thread are correct in pointing out the European trend of development as a direct response to heavy plate armor. Someone mentioned the hand and a half, which comes in more predominantly as the shield is phased out since it was considered somewhat redundant and encumbersome to a knight fully plated. Blades designed to pierce and not hack or slash became more commonplace, whereas other weapons gravitated towards the type that could bring a crushing force to the armor. I think I mentioned war hammers and maces.
In the middle of this are some specific edged weapons such as Falchions, which function much as cleavers do and kind of get the best of both worlds. A super strong Katana might have a chance as a falchion did of cracking the armor, but it would be better for a samurai to knock an armored knight down and take him with a Tanto.
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check em out do a search, for "paul chen Tiger katana" the other is the miyamoto or musashi Katana paul chen is the fabricator, of these swords,
ive held the damascus viking "GODfred" sword, absalutly beautifull but on that day i bought the miyamoto sword, at $500 when the viking was $300.
the viking sword was sharp, but dull in comparison to the katana which could have cut the Damascus viking sword in half, check em out for yourself. you can also find plenty of videos showing off the cutting power of all kinds of swords,one of my favorites is where they take the "agincourt bastard" sword from museum replicas, and chop a cinderblock into pieces.
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Originally posted by ink
check em out do a search, for "paul chen Tiger katana" the other is the miyamoto or musashi Katana paul chen is the fabricator, of these swords,
ive held the damascus viking "GODfred" sword, absalutly beautifull but on that day i bought the miyamoto sword, at $500 when the viking was $300.
the viking sword was sharp, but dull in comparison to the katana which could have cut the Damascus viking sword in half, check em out for yourself. you can also find plenty of videos showing off the cutting power of all kinds of swords,one of my favorites is where they take the "agincourt bastard" sword from museum replicas, and chop a cinderblock into pieces.
there's no way a tiger kat would cut that sword in half. it's not truly damascus steel (no one knows how TRUE damascus steel was made, but it is made using modern pattern welding to look purty, and use a more traditional way of spreading the carbon)
paul chen's katanas are great production swords, probably the finest around, but against the REAL deal, even today, they aren't as good quality, balance or cutwise. there is no way that sword would cut through another high carbon blade.
if you took a cheap 440 stainless steel fantasy sword and hit it edge on edge, providing the thing doesn't fall apart first, then perhaps you would cut through it. i doubt any respecting sword owner would do it though, it would permanently damage your blade.
but the thing is, swords just can't cut through metal, it's just too hard, they were never designed to do it. take your tiger and hack into a big tree, you'll probably damage it! swords are designed to cut flesh. plate armour was designed to protect from these. this wasn't just a bit of metal, it was a skillfully forged high carbon steel plate with ridges and angles for strength, which also gave further protecting from slashes.
even the sharpest sword would glance off. by the high of the plate mail perios, where the only exposed parts of the plate are covered in thick chain (which is also highly effective at protecting against slashes) some european swords had lost their edge altogether, with just a long thin sharp blade with an almost square cross section to punch right through armour (and even with these things is was bloody hard).
simple fact is though, that these armoured knights were the elite. the most successful armies were those with cheap effective troops who could kill any enemy quickly. i'm instantly reminded by the battle of crecy, where 30-40000 fully armoured french knights were massacred by an english force of 8000, primarily longbowmen. english losses were about 200 men. the entire french force was obliterated. often the best solution to a problem is the simplest...
the evolution of the european sword is quite interesting. a guy called oakeshott wrote a book describing the changes and influences in sword design, relative to the armour of the period.
check out this page below:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/swords-albion-mark-nextgen.htm
those guys sell high quality fully functional swords from across the ages, all highly researched. just take a look at the top and scroll down. you'll see how the wide sharp blades began to turn into thin pointy ones ;)
great thread though guys, interesting stuff, keep it up:aok
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as was shown... some of the most intricate and impressive artistry was lavished, and still is.. on the firearm. Nothing can match the precision and pure mechanical sophistication of the gun.
While a sword is relagated to the mantle or a holloween costume.. the gun is being carried and used and having resources lavished on today.
Handguns are even more personal and likely to be both a work of art and a very personal thing. the utilitarian plastic ones excepted.
Knives are another thing. most here carry 4" folders they can be works of art and are very useful. Custom offerings often cost as much as a good firearm.
Biggles... I know you don't get to be around firearms much and handguns in general so you might be amazed at the diversity and art and pure usefulness of em... Like I said.. they can weigh 12 oz and shoot through an engine block or hit a can at 500 yards. They can have thousands of dollars of engraving and exotic material grips and be a thing of beauty.. In every case... the craftsmanship and cleverness of the design are watchlike.
My grandfather was an antique dealer.. I grew up around a lot of antique weapons... hundreds of swords passed through my hands... I felt very little.. Some history but...
The first cap and ball revolver that I handled was a colt navy with ivory grips and some minor engraving... I was hooked for life.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
as was shown... some of the most intricate and impressive artistry was lavished, and still is.. on the firearm. Nothing can match the precision and pure mechanical sophistication of the gun.
While a sword is relagated to the mantle or a holloween costume.. the gun is being carried and used and having resources lavished on today.
Handguns are even more personal and likely to be both a work of art and a very personal thing. the utilitarian plastic ones excepted.
Knives are another thing. most here carry 4" folders they can be works of art and are very useful. Custom offerings often cost as much as a good firearm.
Biggles... I know you don't get to be around firearms much and handguns in general so you might be amazed at the diversity and art and pure usefulness of em... Like I said.. they can weigh 12 oz and shoot through an engine block or hit a can at 500 yards. They can have thousands of dollars of engraving and exotic material grips and be a thing of beauty.. In every case... the craftsmanship and cleverness of the design are watchlike.
My grandfather was an antique dealer.. I grew up around a lot of antique weapons... hundreds of swords passed through my hands... I felt very little.. Some history but...
The first cap and ball revolver that I handled was a colt navy with ivory grips and some minor engraving... I was hooked for life.
lazs
cool. i love guns too lazs :) back in the day though, a sword was like a gun, not only beautiful but an advanced weapon ;) i guess it's also a thing of history and taste though. here in europe, the sword and bow are what forged empires and won wars. there isn't much of that in american history.
american history is the success story of the firearm, rifling, advanced artillery and good old fashioned cowbow vs indian shootouts :) for a proud american, a gun is much more a part of history than a sword, and vice versa for proud europeans. it's all down to taste.
personally, i would rather have a sword because it means more to me, but hell, if i ever come by your way lazs, i hope i can come shooting with ya :D trips to shooting ranges when i visit the states are always a lot of fun, despite the weird gung-ho guys that work there :lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
I own two swords.. well... one is just a 30" bayonet circa 1700's... The other is a small cutlass with a basket hilt from the civil war era.
I would dispute your claim that anyone can "point and shoot" a gun effectively. I would have you handle some of the firearms I have and not walk away with a big grin. the heft of a 44 mag revolver is very confidence inspiring.
To know that you can draw and point shoot at close range or hit a 5 gallon bucket out to 300 yards or so is confidence inspiring. You can also walk around with one and not make a spectacle of yourself.
lazs
3. Cool... Problem with "draw and point shooting" is that if the guy is 10 to 20 feet away with a knife, and you're holstered, he will be on you before you get off the first shot... Moot point after the draw and even if you hit him, since he got to you at the least, as fast as you pulled down.
This is presuming both antagonists are competent in their weapon of choice.
2. I can point shoot a pistol, and revolver pretty good, out to about 25 yards, and aimed shot danged good, out to about 125 yards... with just iron sights. Now I want to meet the guy or gal that point shoots a 44 out to 300 yards (900 feet?!?) and hits a 5 gallon bucket so they show me the secret of their extraordinary success.
1. We share weapon tastes. wakasashi 25" blade... Union NCO Sword... Official Issue Ghurka knife... Several Gerber's including the Mk1 and Mk2 I carried through the jungles... Couple of Hibben's and a drawer full of Swiss Army's
Some of my buddies handiwork; 151 LAYERS of motorcycle chain to make this Damascus blade.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/Odee151layerdamascus_3.jpg)
Irish Sword w/wire wrapped handle
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/OdeeIrishSword-1.jpg)
The Katana, and yes, he made the sheath too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/OdeeKatanascabbard12-11-03.jpg)
Now can anyone name this item, and describe its use?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/OdeeBSS.jpg)
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Originally posted by Serenity
So, what should I ask specifically about the tang?
Accept nothing but the original.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/22_1179849708_tang.gif)
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We've had our share of gun control debates, this is the perfect chance for a a sword control debate :)
The sale of imitation samurai swords could be banned by the end of the year, the Home Office announced today.
Importing or hiring the weapons could also be made illegal following a string of samurai sword attacks in recent years.
Breaching the ban, which is targeted at cheap imitation samurai swords rather than the more expensive genuine collectors' items made by licensed swordsmiths in Japan, would result in up to six months in jail and a £5,000 fine.
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Collectors and martial arts enthusiasts owning or using genuine samurai swords would be exepmt from the ban
According to Home Office estimates, there have been at least 80 serious crimes involving the swords in England and Wales over the last four years.
One MP recently warned that they were being used by criminal gangs as the preferred weapon of choice after guns.
Last month, amphetamine addict Hugh Penrose was jailed for at least 19 years for hacking a 21-year-old woman with a samurai sword and then deliberately running her over.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/05/nsamurai105.xml
Buy them while you can Biggles. They only talk about banning thiose cheap "Samurai Night Specials" today, but that English Broadsword will be on the chopping block tomorrow :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
We've had our share of gun control debates, this is the perfect chance for a a sword control debate :)
Buy them while you can Biggles. They only talk about banning thiose cheap "Samurai Night Specials" today, but that English Broadsword will be on the chopping block tomorrow :)
Charon
yeah, it's rediculous here. in fairness, even my katana, which wasn't massively pricey should be allowed. they want to ban the cheap easily attainable stainless steel swords, but thankfully it's only been suggested and not definite.
totally rediculous the laws here though. a few years ago this country was the world leader in human rights and freedom. now it's becoming a PC big brother society. 'bout time someone stood up against the fat pompous idiots sitting on their arse all day earning over $100,000 a year
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Yeah, I heard UK was even having knives be registered like we do firearms in the USA. :O
Now can anyone name this item, and describe its use?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/OdeeBSS.jpg)
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Originally posted by Odee
Now can anyone name this item, and describe its use?
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/
Some sort of harpoon and handle for armor? I can see a few flaws in this idea, though.
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Originally posted by Odee
Now can anyone name this item, and describe its use?
Looks similar to whatever this guy thinks he's using..
(http://www.manabi-masho.com/images/graphics/shihanweapon.jpg)
Ahh, the comedy gold that is Ninjas Suck Month @ Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net)
It makes me wish May never ends :(
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They call it a "Bull Stay"... Looped end goes over a fence or other post.
...and hooked end goes where cow patties come from. :O
:noid
Rumor has it that there are some married folks using similar devices for keeping their mates from going astray. :cry :furious :O
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Some of my buddies handiwork; 151 LAYERS of motorcycle chain to make this Damascus blade.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/Maj_Spotter/Odee151layerdamascus_3.jpg)
very beautiful work here
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odee.. couple of points.. first, you are describing a scenario where a person with a concealed carry is attacked unawares by a knife weilder from 20 feet away....
If someone attacks you with no prior clue with any weapon.. you will be hurt. If the gun owner attacked someone that had a knife.. the gun weilder would put shots or more into the knife weilder before he even knew someone meant him harm much less drew his knife...
Form the time a fast draw artist decides to draw and the time the gun goes off is measured in hundreths of a second... all moot stuff tho...
Also.. I never said that it was possible to point shoot a 5 gallon bucket at 300 yards or more.. only that you could hit one at that range. I see no problem at all hitting a swordsman at ranges from 20' out to hundreds of yards before he could do anything... If he was unaware... I could put 6 in him at 5' before he even remembered he had a weapon.
your scenario means nothing... if a gun toter and a knife toter were 20' apart and both went to kill the other at the same time..... too bad for the former knife toter..
The only way the knife guy wins is if he attacks someone who isn't expecting to be attacked... and even then... "win" may not be the word to use... he may stab before he gets shot but he will likely get shot and... shot more than once.
lazs
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Lazs,
What if you ever got caught without your sidearm? I know, bad preparation, but what if?
Wouldn't it make sense in the name of preparedness to also be well versed in knives, improvised weapons and some hand to hand techniques. A knife or a gun can often give someone overconfidence. It's a good weakness to exploit.
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Originally posted by Odee
They call it a "Bull Stay"...
:D
Brings back memories. Our Ag teacher had quite a lot of fun out of us when we were Greenhands with that one. :aok
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They call it a "Bull Stay"...
what kind of a sicko freak thought up such a martial arts weapon ... thats crazy. and it looks like it'd be a pain in the prettythang to deploy that thing. a bullet btw the eyes would be an easier, cleaner kill. even hand to hand dirty fighting tactics like thumbs in the eyes, or a throat punch would be preferable to that thing.
besides, it doesn't look like the easiest thing to carry around, and seems like you'd be answering questions all the time, like - "hey mister, what's that thing for?"
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Lazs,
What if you ever got caught without your sidearm? I know, bad preparation, but what if?
Wouldn't it make sense in the name of preparedness to also be well versed in knives, improvised weapons and some hand to hand techniques. A knife or a gun can often give someone overconfidence. It's a good weakness to exploit.
I carry a hand grenade specifically for that purpose. It's strapped to my chest.
If **** goes sour real quick, I just pull the pin. He might get me, but I'll be damned sure I'll be getting him.
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hey, in the magnificent seven i saw james colbern win with a knife in a fast draw knife vs gun, so it must be true.:D
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Wouldn't it make sense in the name of preparedness to also be well versed in knives, improvised weapons and some hand to hand techniques.
you can get that training in the US Marines, problem is , you may be required to use that training in real life.
USMC.
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68...LOL.. well gee... I guess if I was caught without a firearm I would be at the mercy of all you guys who carry a sword on a regular basis.
I may not be fancy about it but I have been in a few dozen bar fights back in the day and I did box sportsman for a while. I think that I can read what is going on in the heads of the bad guys enough to at least avoid it. If nothing else.. I am not adverse to hurting people before they get a chance to hurt me. It may not even seem fair to you.
Knowing what I do about firearms and the people who are around em... I figure I have the best chance of finding where to get one.... admitedly... unlike you... I wouldn't know where to look to get a sword. I can make a gun. I can get any gun there is if I put my mind to it. I don't care what gun I have... if I need something better in some apocolyptic situation where everyone is going around wearing a frigging sword like their fantasy life.... I use whatever I have to get whatever I think I need.
It is not complex and....
obtaining a sword will be pretty far down on my list of "things to do in the apocolypse/rise of the zombies."
lazs
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I'm seriously interested in swords - much more so than all but a handful of people here - but this thread has become rather messy. If anyone is very serious about swords (and isn't a raging Japanophile) feel free to message me and we'll have a private conversation.
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Beautiful helmet:
http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/greek/greek_weapons_and_armor/armor/crested_hoplite_helm.aspx
Is this a homo-helmet? many of the ancient greek warriors shagged each other or young boys... :D
-C+
PS. This is probably blasphemy but I really like the looks of some of those LOTR swords...
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No, this is a homo-helmet. Darth Vader meets the Easter Island heads, with some of Aunt Agatha's knitting thrown in for extra, ah, gay color.
http://www.bonesandblades.co.uk/catalog/images/S5560.jpg
Charge, the homosexuality allegations have always been the only factor to keep the Corinthian helm from being my favorite helm in history. Instead, the Gjermundbu helm wins that place. There's no impunging the manliness of the Vikings! Jaarr!
http://www.bloodbeak.com/gjerm2.jpg
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Lazs sez: obtaining a sword will be pretty far down on my list of "things to do in the apocolypse/rise of the zombies."
Well, if in that type scenario, I imagine the knife/sword is a tad bit quieter when reconoiter turns to encounter you would rather not advertise with a big BADA-BOOM! The soft hiss of air escaping past your razor edged weapon is subtle, and eeriely satisfying. *gag-gack-barf-groooossssss!*
Originally posted by lazs2
odee.. couple of points.. first, you are describing a scenario where a person with a concealed carry is attacked unawares by a knife weilder from 20 feet away....
...Form the time a fast draw artist decides to draw and the time the gun goes off is measured in hundreths of a second... all moot stuff tho...
lazs
No sir... I am describing open carry police training, hand on weapon, facing a perp armed with a knife concealed behind his back... (hands not showing)
Scenario: Officer confronts suspect and orders to show hands. Suspect defies officer in threatening body language. Officer prepares to go either "hands on" or "Weapon hot" depending on how the suspect reacts next.
There's a link to the video around here somewhere, if I can dig it up.
Fast Draw Artist... Now I wonder what percentile of conceal carry permit holders are that? Regardless, in this video from time of attack/draw to end is about 1.5 to 3 seconds, and the average m00k out there just cannot cope that fast. People like you and I can, but that's because we dedicated a serious ammount of time to training and keeping an edge (pun intended) on our skills.
The only "WIN" in this scenario is if the attacker does not cut you at all... Period. A sad testament are the headstones of people that killed their killers don't you think?
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This whole knife vs gun thing is just... funny.
Okay, so a guy can cover 20 feet fast and stab a stationary target before it can draw down on him...
Hmmm... does it not occur to anybody to just step backwards and make space? There's 8 directions you can go. 3 of them put you closer, 5 of them create space. Moving straight back at half their speed doubles their closure time. If you freeze like a deer in headlights, it doesn't matter what you have. If you think there's a situation where a guy is going to come after you with a knife, and there's absolutely no room to maneuver, you should stop hanging out in dark alleys and/or get out of prison.
The only time a knife beats a gun is in an ambush situation, which nothing is going to stop, short of developing a spidey-sense or a wearing a full suit of DragonScale 24/7.
If you think you're gonna get your eye-gouge going on in a fight... please, please, please, go to a legit gym (http://www.bullshido.net) and start training striking & grappling. It's really for your own good.
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Originally posted by lazs2
68...LOL.. well gee... I guess if I was caught without a firearm I would be at the mercy of all you guys who carry a sword on a regular basis.
lazs
That example was more directed at someone jumping you with a knife or improvised weapon. Two sticks can really screw someone up. I carry a mechanical pencil on airplanes as a last line of defense. (hell I carry it anyway, might need to write something)
All we're saying Lazs is that older weapons that may have lost their martial predominance are still entirely valid for study. You seem to take every discussion of swords or other weapons and turn it into a thread of 'guns trump knives'. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you except for artistic or aesthetic value.
(and isn't a raging Japanophile)
Was this directed at me Benny?
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guns, are obviously easier cuz you don't have to step up, any monkey can pull a trigger, guns allow all to be equal, im not saying just cuz ya got a gun,you can shoot straight, anyone who has fired a gun knows it aint that easy, to hit your target without practice.
my point is if you bring a sword to a gun fight your an idiot,but swords and knives do have there place, and what if you run out of bullits? a sword would be nice to have.
Benny Moore
the 512 layer damascus viking sword is truly beautiful and at around $300 you cant beat the price, the pommel and guard are made of nickle damascus. truly beautiful.
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Like Hawk, above... I too always carry an ILW (Improvised Lethal Weapon). I might even wager that the vast majority of people do the same... but that only a small minority of them realizes they are always armed, if not delerious. ...uhm dangerous. You'd be amazed at how dangerous a $0.99 BIC Round Medium pen can be. By the way, that's those pens you always lose the caps to.
Originally posted by indy007
This whole knife vs gun thing is just... funny.
Okay, so a guy can cover 20 feet fast and stab a stationary target before it can draw down on him...
Hmmm... does it not occur to anybody to just step backwards and make space? ...
I never said anything about the shooter being a stationary target. natural instinct would be to move away from the threat.
Didn't think the obvious need pointing out to anyone but a martial artist. :p :rofl
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Originally posted by Odee
I never said anything about the shooter being a stationary target. natural instinct would be to move away from the threat.
Didn't think the obvious need pointing out to anyone but a martial artist. :p :rofl
However, people post on here how they'll be all over you... and quickdraw skills... and joe shmoe's draw skills... time it takes to cover the distance... so it's pretty obvious some here think you're either fighting in a closet, or "run away" simply doesn't occur to them. :D
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you are being silly odee.. the agressive person always does better against someone who does not expect it. Police are not a good example because they are so trained to not shoot. they are trained to not even draw the weapon unless the threat is obvious.
Any weapon is better than no weapon. agressiveness is the best weapon and often trumps others. the willingness to hurt or kill is not in everyone either.. unless you have done so and felt fine with it I don't think you know.
All the practice with a gun or a knife or (LOL) a sword will be meaningless if you hesitate against someone who wishes to maim or kill you.
If I had a gun behind my back I could turn it on you and put 6 or more rounds into you before you even thought there was a threat much less pull a knife.
It takes every bit as long to get a knife into operation as it does a firearm.
silly stuff. If you know there is a threat and you will be attacked you are always better off with the best weapon... that would be a firearm.
as for running out of bullets...
Like I said.. by the time I run out of bullets there will be plenty of knives or swords laying around for me to pick up if I wish.
lazs
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the point of this thread was not a gun vs sword/knife debate. i think we all know who would win...
the point was finding people with an interest or even a collection. thanks to those who kept this in mind, it's been an interesting thread without all the garbage lying about the place.
hawk, it think benny was referring to ink's somewhat fantastic view of the katana, like many others who believe all the myths about japanese swords being the best swords in the world, and being able to cut through a foot of steel etc...
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Well in that case, I've got practice foils & epee. No "real" sword except for a rapier that hangs up with my ren faire costume. It's not even particularly spiffy looking, but it goes with the outfit. I'm not horrible at fencing, but I'm not exactly a master either.
I am good friends with a dealer though. iirc, he should be off in Florida at a paintball game until middle of next week, but if anybody wants, I can dig up his contact info. The markup on the decorative crap makes me wonder why the hell I deal in car parts. If you want his info, just email me, indy007@gmail.com. This is for decorative swords & what-nots, not competition equipment.
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don't forget about that blade toting guy in Indiana Jones. :)
-edit- on second thought, I don't remember 100% if the guy had a blade. -edit-
Besides a pocket knife, this is the extent that I have. lol
A link instead of photo as I have it hosted and am too lazy to resize at this particular point. http://pages.suddenlink.net/kjetil/new%20002.jpg
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I have five swords.
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Originally posted by Estes
don't forget about that blade toting guy in Indiana Jones. :)
-edit- on second thought, I don't remember 100% if the guy had a blade. -edit-
Besides a pocket knife, this is the extent that I have. lol
A link instead of photo as I have it hosted and am too lazy to resize at this particular point. http://pages.suddenlink.net/kjetil/new%20002.jpg
Dude, I love the candles. You could put someone's eye out and seal it for them with the same strike!
Yes he did have a blade, yes it was super funny when Indy just pulled and shot, and yes it shows that Lazs is right. Still, Lazs you could have opened up your own thread for the gun-sword debate.
Please tell me that isn't a real Desert Eagle Estes.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Dude, I love the candles. You could put someone's eye out and seal it for them with the same strike!
Yes he did have a blade, yes it was super funny when Indy just pulled and shot, and yes it shows that Lazs is right. Still, Lazs you could have opened up your own thread for the gun-sword debate.
Please tell me that isn't a real Desert Eagle Estes.
Thanks, and yes it's real.
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hey estes i loved the art in your link. ignore my mad rant if you find it. :noid :lol
i didnt even see this thread till now and now im still on this forum and i cant get off, i know how Jb88 and diablo must feel. and i habe the munchies so bad but i have to go play the actual game ive been fighting it for days now but i must fly its the only cure for the forum.
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Originally posted by Estes
Thanks, and yes it's real.
Estes... I hope you are no where near a fault line. Sleeping under all that hardware on the walls would give me the heeby-jeebies. :O
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
hey estes i loved the art in your link. ignore my mad rant if you find it. :noid :lol
i didnt even see this thread till now and now im still on this forum and i cant get off, i know how Jb88 and diablo must feel. and i habe the munchies so bad but i have to go play the actual game ive been fighting it for days now but i must fly its the only cure for the forum.
Thanks. :)
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Originally posted by Odee
Estes... I hope you are no where near a fault line. Sleeping under all that hardware on the walls would give me the heeby-jeebies. :O
We don't sleep in there, it's the guest/tattoo/game room. Although I have slept in there a few times, looking up is a bit "intimidating" but once you go to sleep it's all ok. :D
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Estes....geeez Louise does Chris belong to the Funk family? :rofl
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Estes....geeez Louise does Chris belong to the Funk family? :rofl
Long lost cousin perhaps? :)
I'm not exactly short, 5'11 and he dwarfs me.
chris<--- ownz beer can! lol
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Estes your wall deserves a nice pair of Sai. They would go well next to your brass knuckles.
I didn't even notice the bed there! :lol What a great message to send to guests: Don't even think about it.....
So what cal is that DE. Hows it fire? What's the ammo cost? Never wanted one myself, and I've heard mixed things.
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Really.. I think you guys ought to all post pics of yourselves out in public with swords on. even private affairs like.. those fair things... tights are optional. Like I said... they only look cool in movies and your head... otherwise.. they just look nutty or gay or both. but......
Have you guys checked out the burger knives site? This is where people of my advanced years get away with stuff. No tights... no fantasy play... just a well crafted sword cane that a poor old helpless guy with a bum leg like me needs to get around with.
Works of art.. but not cheap. Still.. I don't mind the $600. Most of my guns cost me more.
lazs
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Estes your wall deserves a nice pair of Sai. They would go well next to your brass knuckles.
I didn't even notice the bed there! :lol What a great message to send to guests: Don't even think about it.....
So what cal is that DE. Hows it fire? What's the ammo cost? Never wanted one myself, and I've heard mixed things.
It's a relatively smaller caliber DE (357), I'm no super expert on guns so I can't really be specific about how it fires other than just personal experience shooting it.
I haven't encountered any problems with it, granted I don't get a chance to shoot it a whole lot so my opinion is just that. :) Ammo cost isn't too high, if you look to say a .357 revolver ammo the prices are about the same (I buy all my ammo at the local RiverFields)
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This thread has so much Gayness and Dorkyness mixed together if someone mentions linux it will go critical and explode.
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Wow, a dork dare!
Now I'm tempted to go downtown in my costume and get pictures. Would you prefer 11th century German archer or 17th century mountain man? I have weaponry for both, and would be glad to hold up a linux box at the same time. someday I'll be able to pull off Roman Army.
Don't dork dare me or you never know what you may get.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Wow, a dork dare!
Now I'm tempted to go downtown in my costume and get pictures. Would you prefer 11th century German archer or 17th century mountain man? I have weaponry for both, and would be glad to hold up a linux box at the same time. someday I'll be able to pull off Roman Army.
Don't dork dare me or you never know what you may get.
You do that and take pics and you will be like that starwars kid.
I say go for it. ;)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I'll take "Swords" for 500 Alex
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/6f/Celebrity_Jeopardy_-_Jap_Anus_Relations.png)
and you waggered "sucK it Trebeck"
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
You do that and take pics and you will be like that starwars kid.
I say go for it. ;)
I suppose you have a point there...