Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on May 20, 2007, 09:14:30 PM
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just curious why the 262 is easier to shoot apart than an a6m2?
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Originally posted by Citabria
just curious why the 262 is easier to shoot apart than an a6m2?
Don't share your view. My 262 survived a few 20mm hits today and lost only one airleron. As long as the engines are not hit, the 262 is not more fragile than other planes.
A6M2 on the other hand start to burn when you just look at them...
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Ya i call it zeke burnO vision
btw 262s die like most other ger. planes but if u even manage to knock out 1 engine thier screwed because their top speed is greatly reduced and almost any plane can finish em
i average 1 262 kill per tour and its almost always when they try to split s from my pony and i get 1 engine in that second then they are screwed, last months flavor was froger
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It gives you PWs instantly, despite the fact that the forward glass was armored....
It loses engines if you so much as sneeze at them.
I hate taking them up because ANY hit ANYwhere disables me or kills me.
Not really worth it, most of the time. I want that, I'll fly a A6M, like Fester says.
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hey krusty i once tried to sneeze at a 262 but nothing happend wtf are u a l33t haxor or something u newb!!!1! (squeek)
lol:aok
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Engine Oil gets hit when someone comes into icon range. Just like the radiator on the 109K. No matter what angle or what plane it always gets hit within a few pings.
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hehe u luftwaffles and ur ping be gone radiators:lol
no complaints seeign that im cashing in on ur troubles
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I think HTC put magnets in the german planes so bullets turn to them. :noid
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lol htc left u guys scotch under the seat us pilots of american planes get nothing :huh
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You guys get the starwar lazers.:aok
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and u got jug and pony be gone in ur k4s :huh
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Originally posted by evenhaim
and u got jug and pony be gone in ur k4s :huh
huh?:huh
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I can't tell if he means go-juice or boom-boom-taters... :huh
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Originally posted by Krusty
I can't tell if he means go-juice or boom-boom-taters... :huh
lol krusty the 2nd one, tw tk i mean 30mm gun lol:aok
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Evenhaim's posts should come with a warning label. :D
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Originally posted by Saxman
Evenhaim's posts should come with a warning label. :D
Squeakspeak?
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gasp kam how dare u identify me as that unholy of holys u bastige!
btw i dabble in newb and im fluent in arse but ive never spoken a word of squeak!
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Originally posted by Krusty
It gives you PWs instantly, despite the fact that the forward glass was armored....
No armoured glasses whatever (on ww2 fighters) could stop 12mm, leave alone 20mm guns.
Originally posted by Krusty
It loses engines if you so much as sneeze at them.
Be grateful for engines dont ignite when you pull your throttle too quick, like they did in RL afaik.
Personally i have two problems with 262 - i cannt hit anything smaller than hangar wall and cannt land it w/o rolling out of runway.
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What about Chuck Yeager? He said a 20mm from a 190 shattered his wind screen when he went for a HO pass. If it wasnt a 20mm then it was a 13mm. Even then his wounds wernt enough for him to black out and die from like in AH.
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What you trying to disprove? I didnt said any hit in cockpit (by 12mm and above) must kill you.
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Originally posted by Oleg
No armoured glasses whatever (on ww2 fighters) could stop 12mm, leave alone 20mm guns.
That.
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It could be worse, it could be modelled (and then not corrected in 4 or 5 years) like the Mosquito.
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Yes but when you die in a mossi you dont loose 250-400 perks.
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Perks is just AH money. Earn em, spend em or save em.
They cant be sold on ebay yet, but im saving them for the future trade-yer-perks-for-real-money program that Hitech is launching to secure his pension.
:)
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Posted this in another thread. 20mm hit on a Beaufighter TFX most likely from ship mounted AA. Think armoured glass was there for a reason.
(http://www.eel.homechoice.co.uk/20mmshot003.jpg)
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Originally posted by Larry
That.
His windscreen was shattered and he was wounded, right?
Nice pic Trikky, but looks like round penetrated glass.
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Originally posted by Oleg
His windscreen was shattered and he was wounded, right?
If I remember his hands and face were cut, but he was able to ditch his plane.
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my main "problem" with 262s is that they can take many 50cal and even a few 20mm hits, but for some strange reason 303s from lancasters really do hurt... its not even funny.
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According to the book, the pilot was 'temporarily blinded' by dust and splinters but landed it safely back at base.
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Originally posted by Larry
Yes but when you die in a mossi you dont loose 250-400 perks.
Fly Knights and youŽll only lose 90-100 perkies with your 262 :D
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I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)
If your taking pilot wounds they are not coming through the front armoured glass,but the unarmoured canopy.;)
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)
If your taking pilot wounds they are not coming through the front armoured glass,but the unarmoured canopy.;)
The Me262 is a fighter. The only intercepter in the game that I know of are the Me163 and La7. I have taken pilot wounds many times attacking buffs. Unless they were those "magic kennedy bullets" they all hit the armored glass. One ping from AAA gets my engine oil about 95% of the time. I even had a A6M2 zoom up with me and was at 600 out for about 5-8 secs where then I heard 3 pings and I was sitting in the tower.
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If an a6m shoots you down in a 262,you deserve to die! Unless you are landing.S/A.
Dog Fighting in a 262 is madness even against some other jets,IT's an interceptor,oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.:aok
ATTACKNG BUFFS,is the only thing a 262 jockey should worry about,and that not too much.;)
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Originally posted by Hazzer
... oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.:aok
It would have been funny if they had flameouts and engine fires implemented :)
I don't care about their damage model. I only ask for their center-of-gravity to be moved backwards like in the Mosquito.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
If an a6m shoots you down in a 262,you deserve to die! Unless you are landing.S/A. Dog Fighting in a 262 is madness even against some other jets,IT's an interceptor,oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.
ATTACKNG BUFFS,is the only thing a 262 jockey should worry about,and that not too much.;)
I was about 5K above an La7 and a A6M2 I went down on the La and watched the A6M hard turn to get on my six and just stay there while I was at about 500 going back up. He stayed 600 out untill I died. I was even in a tempest the other day and had a co-alt Ki84 at 15k. I dove down with the speed bar off the chart which is about 510mph and the Ki84 stayed 800 off me then and took off one of my flaps untill a 190 came down on me.
The Me262 is a fighter, but you CAN say that all german planes '42 and on were"intercepors" but they wernt made to be one. Me262s were made to kill fighters, but by the time they were made they were attacking bombers as well. When I fly the Me262 I dont even attack bombers anymore because the "armored glass" isnt armored. Iv goten pilot wounds diving in on them when I was 1000 out and started blacking out before I passed them.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Don't share your view. My 262 survived a few 20mm hits today and lost only one airleron. As long as the engines are not hit, the 262 is not more fragile than other planes.
A6M2 on the other hand start to burn when you just look at them...
Lol but those darned things burn like a candle and burn and burn for what seems like 20 minutes.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)
Somehow I doubt your 262 expertise is anything approaching that of Fester (Citabria) :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hazzer
i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.
Define "escaped"??
If anybody chases you, and you're on 1 engine, you're dead. You cannot outrun a yak, a p51, hardly anything if you've lost an engine in this plane. I know this for a fact, as I've been run down many times with 1 engine dead (because they die too easily, part of the original post).
Only time you can "escape" with 1 engine dead is when nobody chases you.
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Originally posted by Larry
The Me262 is a fighter. The only intercepter in the game that I know of are the Me163 and La7. I have taken pilot wounds many times attacking buffs. Unless they were those "magic kennedy bullets" they all hit the armored glass. One ping from AAA gets my engine oil about 95% of the time. I even had a A6M2 zoom up with me and was at 600 out for about 5-8 secs where then I heard 3 pings and I was sitting in the tower.
If you are in AAA in a 262, you are in the wrong place with it. Early jet engines ARE fragile - these aren't the Allisons that you can blow a 5" hole through the crankcase and still have it run for 10 minutes. These are 8600rpm turning turbines, made with cheap materials by low-skilled labor - any damage is bad and likely to kill the engine.
The miracle is that is doesn't shred itself and blow you to bits instantly. Given that .50 cal will penetrate the plate armor on an APC, why shouldn't it blast right through the cheap aluminum on a 262 engine casing? A couple hits (couple half inch holes) later, all your lubricating oil is leaking out, or you lose turbine blades and the engine dies. Multiply this damage scenario out by 20mm, or 37mm ack and I'd expect a single hit to wack an engine. Landing a 30mm tater on a 262 wing is instant death (in our 262 vs 262 battles) as it should be.
Don't blame the ride if you take it where it should not be taken...
EagleDNY
$.02
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You can't make a jet engine out of aluminum. Problems with development and production rates of the early jet engines were because the stronger metals were scarcer, harder to work with. They were, however, much stronger than aluminum.
Granted, you take some damage it's going to show, but there have been cases where modern engines with much larger fans (airliners) damage quite a few blades from a bird intake or something, and despite being 20x larger and fighting many times the forces early WW2 engines contained, they don't shred themselves apart instantly.
Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.
I don't know what types of metal were used, or how strong a bullet you need to pierce the engine casing, but simply sucking a bullet into the fan blades shouldn't destroy the engine, nor should a glancing blow take out your oil instantly. There wasn't that much place where the oil was stored, and I would suspect the "hit zone" for causing an oil leak was very small.
In this game it's about half the size of the plane!
I don't think the 262 is modeled right, personally. FM and DM need work, IMO.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.
This does not holds true for the early German designs which were VERY prone to breakdown even without any interference. The jets were very a very new technology extremely rushed into production and, as already pointed out, build under very problematic circumstances with regard to worker & raw material qualities. And they vere sensitive to mishandling by the pilot.
The Jumo 004 had an average service life of only between 10-20 hours
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Given that, but considering we also don't have this modeled into AH (for any plane that had engine problems), I still don't think the 262 is modeled properly for Aces High.
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Originally posted by Krusty
You can't make a jet engine out of aluminum. Problems with development and production rates of the early jet engines were because the stronger metals were scarcer, harder to work with. They were, however, much stronger than aluminum.
Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.
I don't know what types of metal were used, or how strong a bullet you need to pierce the engine casing, but simply sucking a bullet into the fan blades shouldn't destroy the engine, nor should a glancing blow take out your oil instantly. There wasn't that much place where the oil was stored, and I would suspect the "hit zone" for causing an oil leak was very small.
In this game it's about half the size of the plane!
I don't think the 262 is modeled right, personally. FM and DM need work, IMO.
(This comes from my 262 books from the Smithsonian restoration project):
The backbone of the Jumo 004 is a complex aluminum casting which provided the engine attachment points, supported the compressor case, the combustion chamber assembly, the turbine nozzle, turbine bearings, and finally the entire exhaust system.
Each of the six combustion chambers was built up of 3 major components - a mild steel outer casing, the flame tube, and a corrugated, aluminized steel liner which ducted cooling air through the outer casing.
Hot gas was ducted to the 61 blade turbine wheel. The turbine wheel was intended from the beginning to have hollow air cooled blades, but the pressure of time had dictated that the first versions have solid turbine blades. The blade was formed from conically rolled sheet metal by folding it and welding it at the trailing edge. The material used, "cromadur" required no precious nickel, was easier to produce, and was more reliable in operation...
The engine burned the noxious smelling german j-2 fuel, which was derived from brown coal.
From the engine breakdown notes:
The eight stage compressor has an amazing variety of types of materials and finishes, ranging from stamped aluminum to zinc-coated sheet steel. Even within a single motor variations were found in the materials and method of assembly of stator blades...
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If you look at a cutaway of the Jumo 004, you see the oil tank is located right at the front of the engine near the starter motor, between the inner & outer castings. A bullet or cannon shell hitting the front portion of the nacelle would have a good chance of either hitting the oil tank or one of the lines leading away from it (and there are many).
As far as the pilot wounding issue goes - I think the damage model needs adjusting there. The 262 cockpit is a steel bathtub which is completely fitted out with controls, instruments, seat & so on. It is attached to the fuselage by 2 solid web aluminum alloy bulkheads, and is boxed in fore & aft by the 2 198 gallon armored fuel tanks. It was designed this way so that later production models would be suitable for pressurization.
IMHO it looks like it would be difficult to get a round into cockpit the from forward or rear areas, and a 90 degree hit from the side at speed would be awful lucky - although I suppose through the canopy can always be assumed.
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EagleDNY
$.02
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Layer of steel, aluminum casting, and another layer of steel = pretty damn near bulletproof to me!
Yeah, those PWs are absurd! You're looking directly at your attacker most of the time and take a pilot wound WITHOUT taking any bulletholes to the canopy! Anywhere!
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my only problem with the 262 is that i never fly one for more than 10 mins without being disconected. i can fly for 5 hours straight in any other plane and never disco once, soon as its a tiger or a 262 i lose connection.
wtf HTC?
do you just hate me or something?
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I've had both half of my wings ripped off from battle, flew it out of battle and pursuing aircraft, and landed it. :)
I even have the film to prove it :)
PM if you want it.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
my only problem with the 262 is that i never fly one for more than 10 mins without being disconected. i can fly for 5 hours straight in any other plane and never disco once, soon as its a tiger or a 262 i lose connection.
wtf HTC?
do you just hate me or something?
LOL I know. Ever time I get in a perk plane I loose UDP.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Layer of steel, aluminum casting, and another layer of steel = pretty damn near bulletproof to me!
lol
Even pistol AP bullet can penetrate kevlar vest with titanic plates :rolleyes: W/o knowing layer's thickness you can say nothing about its protection.
Originally posted by Krusty
Yeah, those PWs are absurd! You're looking directly at your attacker most of the time and take a pilot wound WITHOUT taking any bulletholes to the canopy! Anywhere!
Because pilot a little bigger than canopy glass hight and you dont have engine in nose that protect you from the front? The only absurd here is your understanding of aircraft protection.
FYI: 12mm machinegun can penetrate ~15mm armour from ~500m.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Layer of steel, aluminum casting, and another layer of steel = pretty damn near bulletproof to me!
Why not go get some and we will test your theory?
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The 262 is best vs bombers IMO. Ive limped my 262 home on 1 engine often and even got one home that had part of both wings tore off due to my not flying it right. Great plane when used correctly, costly when not. It just needs drop tanks and more ammo-----LOL.
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Originally posted by Furball
Why not go get some and we will test your theory?
Only if you stand behind it.:rofl
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Originally posted by Furball
Why not go get some and we will test your theory?
Sure...
Only I get to come at you at speeds over 500mph, and there has to be 10-15 other people around me WITHOUT this composite metal surrounding them, to represent the rest of the airframe that DOESN'T have this layered metal around them, and if you miss me you get killed by massive grenade-sized explosions (30mm).
In that case I'd be willing to test it out.
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i dont care if there's a battleship infront of me, no mutha is shooting a real live 3cm tater in my direction with my blessing.
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The engines of the 262 were not protected by armor, and they were very succeptable to battle damage. They were nowhere near as robust as a regular a/c engine.
Early jet engines ran two ways. A) Perfectly. or B) Not at all.
Saying its made of steel makes no sense, all engines were made with steel, that didnt make them bulletproof.
...In regards to the pilot armor, cant say, it should have armored glass and an armored seat for the pilot. It may have the same problem as the Mosquito does in this regard, that its not modelled with the proper crew armor?
As for structural damage, I have seen them take some pretty good bursts and still keep the wings and tail.
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Originally posted by Squire
Saying its made of steel makes no sense, all engines were made with steel, that didnt make them bulletproof.
Steel is a lot heavier and a lot denser than mere aluminum. I don't know what most WW2 prop engine casings were made out of, but I'd be very surprised if it was steel or lined with steel. I think the 262 required steel because of the temperatures and stresses on the compression and combustion of air.
Oh, and if you hit something from a 90-degree angle, a lot of things will take bullet holes in them. If you change it by even 20-degrees there's a greater chance the bullet will not penetrate, especially on the thicker metals like steel. Take into account you're shooting at a round, curved, open-ended tube, and forget about it!
Something's up with the 262 in this game, or they wouldn't have been so feared by bomber crews in WW2.
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I don't know anything about 262 engines. I do have a picture that will show how bulletproof steel is. This target is a 1/4" plate, hanging/swinging from a chain.
The amazing thing about this picture are the holes that were made by the 22-250. It shoots a tiny bullet (only 55gr in weight), but very fast. It passed through the steel so easily that the free hanging plate didn't even move. I thought I was missing the target at first.
These little bullets were hollowpoints. They are designed to hit a coyote, expand rapidly, and NOT come back out. They DO NOT go through a 35 pound coyote, unless you hit it in the "wrong" spot. They do nasty things on head shots though. The idea here is to NOT have an exit wound, and the associated damage to the pelt.
The hole from the .270 WIN is with a 130Gr softpoint, used for deer. It is interesting as well, because the bullet also cut through the 1/2" steel rod that was directly behind where the bullet hit.
Every shot, at 300 Yds, with a centerfire rifle passed through the steel. Remember, these bullets are designed to do damage to flesh, not steel.
The "dents" are from muzzleloading rifles. 50 and 54 cal. These bullets are simply round lead balls and are traveling at a very low speed compared to the centerfire rifle. A few of the dents are from my .75 musket as well. (the .75 is about 800 FPS, the 54 about 1800, the .270 about 3000, and the 22-250 about 4000 FPS).
Obviously, this was not "aircraft" grade steel, but then these were not bullets/firearms designed to shoot at "aircraft" grade metal. A kevlar vest wouldn't fare well against these bullets/speeds either.
Also, this was 1943 ish, right? When looking at my 1959 technology outboard(boat motor), compared to the holes in this steel, I'm thinking an engine is going to take some pretty severe damage. I don't want a bullet in my boat motor out in a lake, let alone going through my airplane engine at high speed, high RPM and high altitude.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_2793.jpg)
MtnMan
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If your looking for something to focus on, I would suggest the "slaved guns" on the AH bombers as the culprit, not the Me262 model per se.
The Me262 is hardly alone in its problems attacking AH buffs.
I agree on the issues of the crew protection. I would look for an improvement when the 262 is redone.
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Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for "2 weeks"... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Oleg
No armoured glasses whatever (on ww2 fighters) could stop 12mm, leave alone 20mm guns.
LOL, you don't know much about American armored glass. The forward windscreen of most American fighters is around 2 inches thick, of laminated glass which was designed to stop incoming rounds. This glass is set at an angle which increases the thickness and deflectability.
Lots of fighters took hits to the glass. The problem though comes in the side glass of most fighters. It was a formed Lexan like product that had no ability to stop anything.
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I also wonder why it seems easy to snap a wing-tip off in a high-G manuever, yet when one wing-tip is lost it seems impossible to snap the other-tip off.
I tested this today to try to make it easier to land after being rammed in a 262.
I was up high and was going pretty fast, no matter how hard I pushed it, nothing would break.
Lots of creaking noises, but no result.