Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Yarbles on May 21, 2007, 09:40:15 AM
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Beaufighter in ground atack style circa north African campaign and a
Proper mosquito bomber with drones.
Mosquito cos it carried I believe 4000 pounds of bombs at speed and height and would be unstoppable.
Does anyone know why the RAF bothered with the heavies when a mosquito could do 2 x runs to Berlin in the time a sterling could do one, carried 4000 lbs of bombs and had an attrition rate or loss rate or whatever its called of about 1% with a crew of only 2?
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Does anyone know why the RAF bothered with the heavies when a mosquito could do 2 x runs to Berlin in the time a sterling could do one, carried 4000 lbs of bombs and had an attrition rate or loss rate or whatever its called of about 1% with a crew of only 2?
The mossie still would only be able to make one sortie in a given night.
Stirling and Lanc carried 3-4 times the payload of a mosquito.
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Yeah but with a much higher loss rate and about the crew of 4 mossies. So Mossies seem the obvious answer in area and precision apart from Tall boys and bouncing bombs and all that.
Could I believe fly in much higher and faster and relatively unmolested until the jets arrived and then only in daylght.
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I think I have a good point here which would be bourne out if they were accurately modelled in ah and they would make all others pretty much redundant, without any real justification for perking them as they were so common in practice unlike 234.
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Originally posted by Lusche
The mossie still would only be able to make one sortie in a given night.
Stirling and Lanc carried 3-4 times the payload of a mosquito.
Actually not true. Mossies in 1944 were making two trips a night to Berlin. The Mossie would have a different crew for each sortie though.
As to losses:
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/BoCoLosses.bmp)
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Originally posted by Karnak
Actually not true. Mossies in 1944 were making two trips a night to Berlin. The Mossie would have a different crew for each sortie though.
Have you any resource you could point me to where I could learn more about that practice? Sounds interesting.
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From those stats it looks like the Mossie delivered 0.675 tons/sortie whereas the Stirling delivered 1.5 tons/sortie. Mossie seems to win again for people/payload and probably time over enemy territory too.
Lancs managed 3.9 tons/sortie.
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World War II was very much a war of attrition. You are concentrating on losses of crew, when bombs on target was the priority.
They did not like losing crews, but so long as they could replace planes and crews faster than the Axis could, they continued the strategic bombing despite crew and plane losses. When they could not replace planes and crews as fast as their losses is when they would get nervous about operations.
Very much a different perspective and world back then than the one today.
Also have to consider multiple roles for various craft, not just "bomber". Large bombers were occasionally also pressed into service to haul cargos, and to serve as maritime patrol craft in the U-Boat war. Smaller bombers/attack planes picked up tactical roles and ground attack missions. There is something to be said about having a diverse and flexible inventory.
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Originally posted by Lusche
The mossie still would only be able to make one sortie in a given night.
Stirling and Lanc carried 3-4 times the payload of a mosquito.
As it is said elsewhere, the Mosquito could do 2 x ops per night, deliver more accurately, and you could have two of them using much less resources than a lanc or a stirling.
It did not have the variation in payload of a heavy though, a single lanc could use the cookie to blow out rooftops before the incendiary bombs lit the insides, the 4k bomb load on the Mossie was only a single cookie.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Have you any resource you could point me to where I could learn more about that practice? Sounds interesting.
Yes. I'll post it when I get home from work.
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Ok. Some fun Mossie data.
When sufficient Mosquitoes became available, RAF Bomber command used some for "Siren Tours" where each unit would bomb several German targets on one sortie to set off the air raid sirens and disrupt the workforce.
Mosquito; Sharp, C. Martin and Bowyer; page 304; Crecy; ISBN 0 947554 41 6
The first raid in which a Mossie dropped a 4,000lb bomb was on the night of 23/24 Febuary, 1944 when two Mosquito B.Mk IV Specials each dropped a cookie as part of a Mossie raid.
Mosquito; Sharp, C. Martin and Bowyer; page 308; Crecy; ISBN 0 947554 41 6
The first raid by the Mosquito B.Mk XVI, which was purpose built to carry a 4,000lb bomb, had a cockpit pressurized to 2psi and the high blown Merlin 72/73 (counter rotating) engines was on 5 March, 1944.
Mosquito; Sharp, C. Martin and Bowyer; page 309; Crecy; ISBN 0 947554 41 6
"Flt. Lt. Val Moore and his navigator, Pat Dillon, were nearing Berlin on 18 July. Searchlights illuminated them, as Dillon was settling at his bombsight. Almost immediately tracer whipped past. Moore called to his navigator to return immediately to his seat and strap himself in, to allow weaving action. Then he dived MM135 to almost 500 knots to shake off the fighter, before climbing steeply. A s he did so a packet of Window landed on Dillon's lap, so violent was the motion. Once caught in the searchlights it was difficult to escape at high altitudes, and fighters also had an idea as to the positioning of the Mosquito. Ten times they fired at MM135 without hitting it. Next day engineers examined the machine. They found nothing wrong, although it had dived far beyond the recommended speed limit."
Mosquito; Sharp, C. Martin and Bowyer; page 312; Crecy; ISBN 0 947554 41 6
Lusche,
I cannot find that data tonight. I just read it the other night while skimming through the book I referenced tonight. This is, by far, the best Mosquito book I have and I recommend it to anybody interested in adding a book on the Mosquito to their library. It was an offhand comment in the book though, not a long expose on the two raids a night for the same aircraft. I don't think it was a common practice, but it was possible.
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Can anyone tell me what the maximum multiple bomb load of a mossie is i.e. could one carry 4x1000lb and what its spead would be at around 10-12,000 feet with this size of load and it climb rate to this altitude.
Also coming back to this point about a war of attrition. if a Mossie could fly around 2 x sortie per night at around 1% loss rate, then assuming Stirlings could be replaced at a higher attrition rate, if a switch to Mossies was made, the overall bomber force would start to increase rather than be replaced. Then it is reasonable to assume the quantity of bombs delivered would increase which was the purpose of the whole thing.
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Id love to see the beaufighter and me410 :)
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I know they had issues with the size of some bombs in the bomb bay, but changing the tails made them shorter to fit - I'll try to find out if that was for 500lb or 1000lb.
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I am thinking 3 x mossies (2 drones), 4 x 1000lb, climb rate 2000 ft per min +, about 350 mph at 12,000 would be awsome numbers in AH if true.
No defensive armament I suspect but still!
10,000 feet in 5 minutes, probably another 5 mins to target maybe 8 minutes to return to base and then round again.
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The 4,000-lb load was all in the shape of a single "cookie", apparently also referred to as a "dangerous dustbin".
The "shortened fins" story is true - the Mossie was originally designed for 4x250-lbers, however it was found that if the fins on 500-lbers were shortened, four of them would fit in the bomb bay. Apparently the idea was pooh-poohed by officialdom until it was demonstrated that the ballistics were just as good.
The change was made before the Mossie bomber went into service.
I have to say, I don't know if the change was made to the standard 500-lber or just to those used by Mossies.
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So would max bomb load be 4x500lb?
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According to Wikopaedia or whatever its called 6 x 500lb max which could take 2 fighter hangers in AH or 3 vh's. Climb rate around 2800 top speed at altitude 415mph. In my opinion unstoppable in the game.
Bring it on I say:t
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Originally posted by Karnak
Ok. Some fun Mossie data.
Thank you very much for that info! :aok
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Originally posted by Martyn
Lancs managed 3.9 tons/sortie.
Yes, but what matters is how much of that payload hits the target, not how much hits the ground.
From a strategic point of view, at the cost of 1 4 engined bomber you can get 2 mosquitoes. This is just the engines, so add to that the fact that mosquitoes were built by piano and furniture makers, out of cheaper materials. Add to that the lower costs from training fewer crews and loosing fewer crews. And finally, higher survivability also means you can amass more operational squadrons.
I think the real problem was to convince bomber command to change its strategy.
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Originally posted by bozon
Yes, but what matters is how much of that payload hits the target, not how much hits the ground.
From a strategic point of view, at the cost of 1 4 engined bomber you can get 2 mosquitoes. This is just the engines, so add to that the fact that mosquitoes were built by piano and furniture makers, out of cheaper materials. Add to that the lower costs from training fewer crews and loosing fewer crews. And finally, higher survivability also means you can amass more operational squadrons.
I think the real problem was to convince bomber command to change its strategy.
Which sounds allot like
Also coming back to this point about a war of attrition. if a Mossie could fly around 2 x sortie per night at around 1% loss rate, then assuming Stirlings could be replaced at a higher attrition rate, if a switch to Mossies was made, the overall bomber force would start to increase rather than be replaced. Then it is reasonable to assume the quantity of bombs delivered would increase which was the purpose of the whole thing.
With a few additions of course.
I think it should be brought into the game as above and I think we would see the use of heavy bombers dramatically decline. I think it wont be brought in for this reason because it would change the whole balance in favour of atack and make low level or from ground ready interception unviable. The only defence would be high level Combat air patrols but this would lift the starting point of many furballs. If its introduction did damage the game it could of course be perked like the 234. I also wonder if in the real WW2 vested interests were not at work in the perpetuation of the heavy over this much more surviveable alternative.
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Another note from that book said Mosquitoes were landing 80% of their bombs within 100 yards of the target at night from 25,000+ft.
If you compare that to the RAF or USAAF heavies, even during the day, it is much higher accuracy.
EDIT:
Mosquito B.Mk IV would not be perked.
Mosquito B.Mk XVI probably would be perked.
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Mosquito B.35 would most definitely be perked :t
When considering tonnage/sortie you need to take into account that the Mosquito was not always used as a bomber, such as the lanc, stirling and halifax were. They were often used as a pathfinder for the main force, dropping target marker flares often from low altitude.
I also seem to recall that they used them circling around the target to direct the attack.
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Originally posted by Furball
Mosquito B.35 would most definitely be perked :t
When considering tonnage/sortie you need to take into account that the Mosquito was not always used as a bomber, such as the lanc, stirling and halifax were. They were often used as a pathfinder for the main force, dropping target marker flares often from low altitude.
I also seem to recall that they used them circling around the target to direct the attack.
Meaning I assume even more risk for less bombs dropped with an unbelievably low attrition rate.
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Don't know about you guys, but I think we do need another perked bomber. The Arado is OK but a Mossie attack would be more appropriate - and something to spend those perks on.
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I agree, would love to see the dedicated mossie bomber available with formations.
Attrition wise it would have made much more sense to send over mossies than anything else. Even if your not dropping as much total poundage per plane.
Crew on mossie was what, 2? Pilot & navigator/radioman/bombardier?
Crew on a Lancaster is 10? 12? Makes much more sense to drop half the poundage with less than 10% of the loss in men, planes, etc.
Ohhh and yes bring on the Beaufighter!
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Originally posted by Martyn
Don't know about you guys, but I think we do need another perked bomber. The Arado is OK but a Mossie attack would be more appropriate - and something to spend those perks on.
Absolutely and spot on a perked version is all the game as it is could stand and the 234 is far too niche. The Mossie like the Tiger and 262 would be Uber in most situations. But I think many people will never give up on the B29 as the next perked bomber.
Does HTC actually read any of this? :p
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Does HTC actually read any of this? :p
imo, yes they do. also in my opinion they have multiple shade accounts posing as noobs and squeakers that are used to discretly garner customer feedback.... :D
trust no one.
:noid
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
imo, yes they do. also in my opinion they have multiple shade accounts posing as noobs and squeakers that are used to discretly garner customer feedback.... :D
trust no one.
:noid
Maybe not just garner but also lead customer opinion eh
"The truth is out there":noid
Anyway if they dont get a decent perked british twin merlin engined wooden drone equipped bomber of some sort in AH soon I want to know why:mad:
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As much as a bomber mosquito would be welcomed, I'm against having it with formations enabled.
When attacked it would have to maneuver - that's its defense. It means instant loss of the two drones. If it keeps flying level - it is dead. So either you give your attacker easy 2 kills just by going "booo!" near you, or you give him 3 kills if he actually uses his ammo.
Heavy bombers need their formations in order to allow a small number of pilots (1-2) still have a defense of a bomber box. For the mosquito, the formation is a hindrance defensively and will only serve as to allow a single player to deliver a larger payload in a sneak attack. The drones will be expendable in case it is attacked - that is dweeb play.
As a single bomber it has a good chance to out maneuver defenders and get to the bomb run. It would not have the ord to shut down a field, but 3-4k of bombs are enough to take out a designated hard target (a hangar) or multiple soft ones (ammo, fuel, radar). Even when hitting a city, spread out properly, it is a lot of damage. It would reach the target much faster (cutting down the boring climb-out time) and with surprise or some friendly fighter activity, has a good chance to make the drop and come out alive. It would be something between a JABO and a carpet bomber. Even for NOE surprise attack it would be great - more bombs, but without the jabo cannons for vulching after the drop.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Maybe not just garner but also lead customer opinion eh
maybe so! im totaly for this action, it must get sickening posting as your original 'Hitech' forum name and knowing that as soon as you show your face you will be jumped on by 200+ forum scum bags all wanting to know this that and the other, and wanting to know NOW!
must be a great liberation of those pressures being able to work under cover.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
maybe so! im totaly for this action, it must get sickening posting as your original 'Hitech' forum name and knowing that as soon as you show your face you will be jumped on by 200+ forum scum bags all wanting to know this that and the other, and wanting to know NOW!
must be a great liberation of those pressures being able to work under cover.
Is this a confession?
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Originally posted by bozon
As much as a bomber mosquito would be welcomed, I'm against having it with formations enabled.
Heavy bombers need their formations in order to allow a small number of pilots (1-2) still have a defense of a bomber box. For the mosquito, the formation is a hindrance defensively and will only serve as to allow a single player to deliver a larger payload in a sneak attack. The drones will be expendable in case it is attacked - that is dweeb play.
This is pretty much true of the lanc which in my opinion has virtually no defence in its .303's and has to rely almost entirely on height. The mossie would at least have speed and height but if the perk points are highish say half of the 234 then dwebness, dweebing or dweebetry should be minimised as 1) points must be earned 2) when earned they would soon be squadered unless the atack was fast, high and well considered. Remove the drone option and I believe the mosquito would not be often used as it would take a minimum of 3-4 players to seriosly close down a base. Lone targets have very little significance beyond 15 minute down time and even with a mossie this is not enough time to execute a meaningfull raid on a meaningfull target. In short without drones it becomes another niche plane like the 234.
I think the existing mossie can infact fullfill most of the role you would propose for a new plane and it is precisely its limited bomb capacity as much as its lack of a bomb site which limits its use. TBH it is only the lack of capacity which stops me from considerin the Boston more often. It I was after a single hanger however I would only risk 1 as opposed to all 3 mossies but this would always be heavily influenced by the cost.
]
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trust no one!
how do we know u aint one of them?
:noid
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And if I was would I know:noid :noid
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oh noes, now im scared, what if i am and i dont know...
:confused:
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Formations are for carpet bombing. Mosquitos were pinpoint bombers.
I agree with Yarbles. That would be dweeb play, to enable formations on a bomber-snout mossie.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Formations are for carpet bombing. Mosquitos were pinpoint bombers.
I agree with Yarbles. That would be dweeb play, to enable formations on a bomber-snout mossie.
Hang on a minute I want formations because many bomer pilots (like me) want to be able to fly effective individual sorties as well as with their squads or fly with drones as part of combined opperations where they can play a significant individual role.
My point in all of this is that if we brought the mossie in as an unperked formation bomber it would have a radical effect on the balance between atack and defence so I guess it has to be perked. Perked in a way where it wont be squadered in a dweeboistic way but used effectively individually or with drones at some risk to the pilot in terms of points. Without the perk I think it would make many of the existing bombers including the heavies obsolete and force the fighters to fly higher in order to defend in a meaningfull way. Infact it would be interesting like the firefly to limit it to one arena for a period unperked to see if this was the case.
(I think in ww2 it was a wasted opportunity but very much a one off as itr was superceeded by Jets but in my opinion was the zenith of the exiting prop technology in a bomber because of its accuracy and serviveability)
If I misunderstood you Krusty appologies and generally I hate reading long posts so appologies in general ;)
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hey yarbles i think the biggest problem with mossy formations, as someone else already posted, is that they have no tail guns.
no tail guns = only defence available is manouver.
and we all know what happens with warping drones and proxy kills when a formations starts manouvering wildly to eascape an attacker. the mossy only has nose guns, and therefore is more a fighter than a formation bomber.
only solution that is available to us in reality, is to find a couple of wingmen to fly alongside you
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234 has no effective tail guns and the mossie concept was always fly high and out run, bomber had no guns originally. If you dont think you can do that you dont fly a formation and probably not even singly. Would you take a lanc into a heavily defended area at less than say 20k and expect to get home?
BTW does anyone know how much faster a 234 is at altitude than a pure bomber mossie. Not that much I guess. If the mossie is slower it also should out climb and out accelerate the 234 as well as carry a similar but more flexible bomb load with a greater range. What makes the 234 a poor proposition for me is slow climb and its two expensive as well as unrealistic having played little part in any number during the conflict.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
only defence available is manouver.
Have you tried getting someone of your six in a mossie?
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yes, my most effective manouver usually involves ripping off vital plane parts in high G manouvers and then being set on fire by a fairy's fart.
works everytime.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
yes, my most effective manouver usually involves ripping off vital plane parts in high G manouvers and then being set on fire by a fairy's fart.
works everytime.
Excellent, I reckon if its perked make it about the same as spit 14 and that will deter the reckless use of the drones. :D
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Some of you seem to be forgetting that bomber formations are optional.
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if by that you mean those who want to fight/live in a mossie can just take a single plane.
yeah, cool.
what isnt cool is when the guy who takes a formation decides that evasive manouvers are the only option, and the resulting warp-o-rama is just about the most stupid looking event in the game.
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<-- confessing (truth is i am hitech)
thanks for exposing me batfink:confused:
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Originally posted by evenhaim
<-- confessing (truth is i am hitech)
thanks for exposing me batfink:confused:
Originally posted by Hitech
<-- cunfesin (truth is i am hitech)
tanks fo exposin me butfink
spot the difference.
nice try :cool:
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Mossie bombers did use formations at times, so I think the option should be there. It is up to the player to decide which risk is best.
Also, the Mossie bomber's first line of defense wasn't manueverablity, it was speed. It is very hard for even a Bf109K-4 to intercept a Mosquito formation that is at 25,000ft moving 300-400mph when the Bf109K-4 is starting from rest on an airfield at 1,000ft.
In AH most would not be able to plan far enough ahead to intercept a Mossie formation.
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.... Which is probably another reason why they won't get formations....
It's like that with the bombers we already have in-game. Late-model Mossquito would be much worse.
Main reason the formations were added at all was carpet bombing. Also note we got big sprawling towns about the same time (not cities, airfield towns), which you need to carpet bomb to take the field.
Mossquitos (even if some flew in formation -- hell every plane in the war flew in formation!) were not carpet bombers. They were the opposite of that. They just didn't operate with the "Wipe out the entire city" mindset.
Shouldn't get formations, especially considering they'll be "almost uncatchable" (yes, any plane is catchable, I realize)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
spot the difference.
nice try :cool:
LOLz i tried forgot hitech couldnt spell :(
btw i never even saw that post totally random that they are alike:lol