Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Benny Moore on May 22, 2007, 01:01:54 AM
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Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird. But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.
I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later. I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.
The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window. I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough. Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.
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shh benny dont reveal my secrets
-freez
well when we duel i always manage to avoid the 2nd ho sometimes harder to avoid the collision then the ho i think it all depends on the opposing players skill level and attitutde if the claim they are taking a "angle shot "then i get angry.
wellhopefully hos will one day die out
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That we do not spray each other the moment our noses simultaneously come around does not mean that everyone else likewise refrains, unfortunately.
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yep
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Originally posted by evenhaim
well hopefully hos will one day die out
As most of us do, but with all the newbs out there flying it will most likely never happen.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
wellhopefully hos will one day die out
Not likely! Didn't you see Flyboys? After watching that even I had a guilty urge to go head-on with someone.
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Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?
When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass. Forget about coming back around.
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ive actually been experiment ing with flat turns into the merge but i find the immelin to most fun ;)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass. Forget about coming back around.
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone? I've never understood this tactic. There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do. It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them. When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds. I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?
It is the most energy efficient and the best for gaining a gun solution in the shortest time possible. It's not very good for avoidance, though, which brings me to my present concern. If I perform a maneuver that is less energy efficient, I keenly feel the loss later. In short, the guy who Immelmanns when the other fellow does not has all the cards; he saves more energy and he gets a gun solution briefly on the second merge. The only counter to an Immelmann that I can see is another Immelmann and a head-on, which is something I do not like to do at all.
Again, the closest I can come to avoiding it, when the pilot is roughly equal to me in skill and is determined to make the shot on the second merge even if it is a head-on, is a combat turn followed by a spiral climb - and even that gives him a short opporunity to fire (although if he misses he is now at a disadvantage).
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird. But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.
I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later. I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.
The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window. I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough. Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.
You will rarely ever see me do an immel on a merge. I much prefer a high yoyo. A high yoyo gives you more options. You can gain angle, and you are not floundering at the top of it. Usually I can do a simple roll at the top and be in position behind the nme.
I have always found the yoyo a bit more flexible.
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This is hard to explain, but essentially, whether it's the first merge, or the second after vertical loops with the usual intention of rolling into Immelmanns, if I see us going into the head-on aspect at the top of the loops (before one of us rolls the Immelmann) I stay in the loop to entice the bandit to go for the head-on shot. I then avoid it, which is usually quite easy using any kind of slight nose roll to change Plane of Motion on him.
If he tries to hold and track for the shot, I quickly move to lead turn by pushing the roll into a turn. This may only give me a small angle advantage if he's observant, (and if I've watched his movement closely), but it's a start. Obviously, timing and practice make this move effective, and it is.
My rule is, unless I'm outnumbered or in a big furball, and need a quick kill to even the odds, I never go for the HO, but I want him to.
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personally, i don't 'want' to HO, but if someone flys in front of my guns, in any way, shape, or form, i'm pulling the trigger.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?
When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass. Forget about coming back around.
I win HO's against 110's in Hurricane Mk. 1's. Just because you have cannon doesn't mean your aim is good.
As for "Ho'ing regularly", that speaks volumes of how the MA's have deteriorated.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it)
combat turn...........alt gained may vary
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/combat_t.JPG)
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No one move works for all planes..... in several planes it is more important to kill your E, at least to a certain point so you can turn fight. So what plane are you flying?
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The only time I see immelmans in the game are in the dueling arena. When fighting the same plane. In the main arena it seems the fights go another direction for me. But I do know what you mean about the perpetual headon aspect you get by repeated immels. Try some throttle control even if its when vertical.
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Originally posted by Tilt
combat turn...........alt gained may vary
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/combat_t.JPG)
Pitchback similar to a Hi yoyo
Sliceback - similar to low yoyo
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Originally posted by trax1
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone? I've never understood this tactic. There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do. It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them. When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds. I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.
The biggest and best reward from the HO is the squeaker whine after you kill them. As for it taking no skill, I disagree. HO'in and winning takes a lot of skill to master and be able to stay damage free and avoid the collision.
As for a long two minute turn fight... lmfao. Where do you find those nowadays. Everytime I get involved in a turn fight, about 5 or so nme pile on top of it, severely limiting my options.
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1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know. If you find yourself getting tagged on a regular baisis then a couple of points apply...
1) your losing sight of the other guy. Very good duelers (I'm certainly not one) are readjusting all the time thruout the merge...
2) your flying perdictably, good openers are never true Immelmans. In a duel you can go either angles or E opener, if your flying a max speed true emmelman your flying about the worst possible merge....basically a "tweener". Many of the really tough duelers open with 45 degree or even flat "turns" with a variety of throttle work and adjustments to what you do.
I'd say that the other guy is simply flying to the top of your immelman from an out of plane perspective (relevent to you) and popping you in the front quarter as you come over....
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i hear you benny, but i find myself sweetly above this problem.
in the main arena i never merge head on, i usually give my tail (read: i fly LOW) and make a reversal. most of the suckers take the bait and cant even hit the six shot i give, let alone hit me head on slim profile. after they have missed that chance and the reversal is on, very rarely do they get another gun solution.
for dueling, if i fight someone and we do the standard (boring) E fighting merge, and they choose to blaze away on the second merge......then i say 'good shooting, wow, you owned me' and log off.
it is truly a gold nugget in the pig sty when i fight someone who hold fire untill one of us earns a proper advantage and respectable gun solution.
anyone not know what this is like, bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards and go find a real fight with someone good in the DA.
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Originally posted by trax1
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone? I've never understood this tactic. There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do. It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them. When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds. I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.
There are several reasons. Among them:
I'm in an outnumbered area and want to get rid of as many bogies as I can as quickly as possible.
I'm OTW to some "destination" and don't want some idiot dogging me all the way.
I'm in a b'n'z type against a t'n'b type (why would I turn with him?)
Some squeaker noob opens up from 2K out on my low 12 and I teach them a quick lesson.
These are just a few.
I bet if you sat in with any pilot in this game, even the most self-richeous "I don't ever HO" guys, they occasionally HO. If they don't they are missing opportunities.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
As for "Ho'ing regularly", that speaks volumes of how the MA's have deteriorated.
I Agree.
I stopped HOing for a couple of camps but 85-90% of people I merged with attempted the HO. I'm actually a good shot on the HO and win 80-85% of the time with no damage so I just got sick of trying to be honerable and went back to it. I particularily like HOing Nikis.
[EDIT] I've rarely HO'd a good pilot. Why? Other than the DA where cold merges are the norm if you're not getting seperation at the merge you are either setting up to HO or to be HO'd. Why people fly directly at an oncoming plane continues to baffle me.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
As for a long two minute turn fight... lmfao. Where do you find those nowadays.
I usually find them in EW and MW almost every night. There can be some gangin' but it's the exception not the rule.
Cya there!
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I HO regularily
Loser tactics for a game about acm!!!! :aok
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I take the shot that is presented, if you fly right into me...why get a free
pass? The thing I find annoying is when
someone is flying a higher better turning aircraft and flies for the HO.
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Originally posted by humble
1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know. If you find yourself getting tagged on a regular baisis then a couple of points apply...
1) your losing sight of the other guy. Very good duelers (I'm certainly not one) are readjusting all the time thruout the merge...
2) your flying perdictably, good openers are never true Immelmans. In a duel you can go either angles or E opener, if your flying a max speed true emmelman your flying about the worst possible merge....basically a "tweener". Many of the really tough duelers open with 45 degree or even flat "turns" with a variety of throttle work and adjustments to what you do.
I'd say that the other guy is simply flying to the top of your immelman from an out of plane perspective (relevent to you) and popping you in the front quarter as you come over....
I think you misunderstood my situation. When the other pilot is roughly the same skill level as me, and we both Immelman, we both come around at exactly the same time and we both get gun solution. It's a head-on in every sense of the word - except that I choose not to shoot. Instead, I jink hard, rolling a few degrees and pulling (or, if I do not have enough energy, pushing) for a second or two.
I have no problem getting my nose around in time for the shot if I Immelmann, and I'm not losing sight of the enemy. My problem is that I am not satisfied with a head-on shot, because every successful H.O. is one fight you'll never have and a learning experience lost (not to mention it's not fun for either of you). So I'm trying to figure out a way of making an energy-efficient maneuver after the merge that won't end up in a head-on pass, and also will not give him a firing opportunity.
My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann. But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn. Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.
By the way, I fly P-38 and P-47. If anyone feels like demonstrating anything to me, please say so and I'll try to arrange a time that we can meet in my head-to-head server.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
anyone not know what this is like, bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards and go find a real fight with someone good in the DA.
Some are to obusy patting themselves on the back for an HO or pick victory, than to accept a challenge to fight on even terms in the DA, unfortunately.
After a few good fights that ended with picks from allies/enemies, Vudak and I dueled several times in the DA. No HOs, and I learned a few new things. Some people are too enamored with themselves over a cartoon victory to try and learn something new.
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If you pre-turn the first HO early enough, you shouldn't have to worry about a HO on the second pass. The only way he should be able to HO you again , is if he extends the fight, runs away then turns.
At least that's what I've found.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann.
how so? explain please
Originally posted by Benny Moore
But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn. Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.
If you already know ( read that as you already thinking it ) then yes you gonna be behind on the angles curve........but since you are reading this far into it, why not adjust your combat turn ( ie PITCHBACK or Hi Yoyo ) to where you can maintain your E more so than he can and have some in reserve to help you on the 2nd nose to nose merge.........
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The biggest and best reward from the HO is the squeaker whine after you kill them. As for it taking no skill, I disagree. HO'in and winning takes a lot of skill to master
blah blah blah puke blah! What a moron!:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann. But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn. Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.
Maybe you're thinking in too simplistic terms. Think complex acm.
I had a merge with a pair of bogies one night recently that gave me both kills within a few turns. On the initial merge they were in a sort of wing formation near the deck and didn't split me. As we merged I started a high yo-yo and as I reached the top of it (half way through) I rolled back and pulled into a full loop. I'm pretty sure they both lost vis on me because I could see them flat-turning below me as i came over the top. I also knew that they would be off my right side, out of plane in their merge turns, not in front of or behind me. This allowed me to drop on one for the kill right away, then it was just a matter of winning a one on one for the second kill.
Just because there's a yo-yo and an immelmann doesn't mean you can't combine them to your advantage or break off of one half way through for a more advantageous move.
I find that thinking in terms of "pure" acm more often than not gets me killed.
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Originally posted by humble
1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know.
Where do you get this statement? anyone that is going for the face shot is HOing!~ It doesn't matter on which turn or what arena, if you play thisgame and HO folks, you bring the game down a notch!:aok
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards
nail/head!:aok
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I Agree.
I stopped HOing for a couple of camps but 85-90% of people I merged with attempted the HO. I'm actually a good shot on the HO and win 80-85% of the time with no damage so I just got sick of trying to be honerable and went back to it. I particularily like HOing Nikis.
[EDIT] I've rarely HO'd a good pilot. Why? Other than the DA where cold merges are the norm if you're not getting seperation at the merge you are either setting up to HO or to be HO'd. Why people fly directly at an oncoming plane continues to baffle me.
Fair enough. <>
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
how so? explain please
An Immelmann is the maneuver which brings you to your corner turning speed the fastest without you having to throttle back. Since you don't throttle back, rather slowing down by trading speed for altitude, you do not lose as much energy as, say, a flat turn. In a flat turn, of course, you're just pulling gees and blowing energy, gaining only angle. In an Immelmann, you pull gees and blow some energy, yes, but you keep more of your energy than you do in a flat turn because you're trading a lot of that speed for altitude.
A combat turn is half-way between an Immelmann and a flat turn. It's half vertical, half horizontal. Therefore, it saves more energy than a flat turn, but isn't quite as energy-efficient as an Immelmann. It can spare you the prospect of going head-on at the second merge, but since it is slightly less energy-efficient than an Immelmann, the flier who Immelmanns will always get a small opportunity to fire at the flier who does a combat turn. As I said, I try to dodge that and have moderate success at dodging that one shot. If I do dodge it, he is almost certainly mine, for he has blown all of his energy for that one shot and is about to stall.
I would post tracks for demonstration and critque, but my webspace has been down for several days now.
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I suffer from 3DVIS (3D Visualization Impairment Syndrome), which makes my gunnery stinky and my ACM way too inflexible, at least until I get really really comfortable with a move. I have a BFM question:
Can anyone help me understand the difference between a combat turn/ pitchback and a chandelle? Or are they the same thing?
And BTW: I don't like HOing because I can't see the point in giving the opponent an easy firing solution. If they try on the first merge, I've won the angles battle. (Note that dioesn't mean I get the kill, because....my gunnery is stinky). On a low energy, low option merge (like the 2nd merge Benny describes), it only takes a quarter roll and mild flight path deflection to be 95% safe from any damage, provided you see it coming early enough to make that move result in a little separation.
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Would you care to join me in Blue Sky sometime and we can knock our heads together in a friendly manner?
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Would you care to join me in Blue Sky sometime and we can knock our heads together in a friendly manner?
Such activity i susually most enjoyable!
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for every hour i spend in the ma i spend 3-4 in h2h or DA depends for me its about honor and i hope when some of these "hoers" grow up they wil learn the truth about duieling :)
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Originally posted by evenhaim
for every hour i spend in the ma i spend 3-4 in h2h or DA depends for me its about honor and i hope when some of these "hoers" grow up they wil learn the truth about duieling :)
SkyRock<---slpas Freez for bringing down the skill level of the DA by being there!
:aok
Mark
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
A combat turn is half-way between an Immelmann and a flat turn..
That's a "pitchback".
For your orignal question/scenerio....It's hard to give a specific answer but, I am evaluating and setting up for my next merge 1/2 way through the first turn. I only want to nose on if Im sure I have the first shot opportunity. If that isnt the case, the idea is to not reverse directly into their guns, but to make them chase you with their nose into the next merge (which means your course is slightly off angle of theirs). That itself narrows the shot opportunity window. With good timing, you'll have your lift vector set for the next intended turn, and can also incorporate the enterence into your next turn as part of denying the merge shot.
There are too many varibles to be more specific, but while there are some situations where there is no way to avoid a 2nd merge HO, I find it the exception and not the rule with the varying methods I use.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
shh benny dont reveal my secrets
-freez
wellhopefully hos will one day die out
well....if i'm thinking right, they CAN.....and WOULD.....if the powers that be would simply turn off damage for that angle.......they used to do it ages ago in AW3 if i recall....so wiht this much more advanced sim, it would seem the best thing to do.:aok
also, benny........any nights you might be available in the TA to help a somewhat noob learn to avoid it? it seems that everuything i try to avoid it GIVES my opponent a shot at me. so far my best avoidence is to dive under him, but when he sees me doing that, he also dives.....then....WAMMO!!!!! i get the white collision mesage from whoever it was. and take a lot of damage too....which i thought wasn't supposed to happen......but anyway.......there's my 2 cents......now i'm broke again!!:rofl
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?
When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass. Forget about coming back around.
this is what i just posted asking about........how does one avoid this then sir?:D
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I have no problem getting my nose around in time for the shot if I Immelmann, and I'm not losing sight of the enemy. My problem is that I am not satisfied with a head-on shot, because every successful H.O. is one fight you'll never have and a learning experience lost (not to mention it's not fun for either of you). So I'm trying to figure out a way of making an energy-efficient maneuver after the merge that won't end up in a head-on pass, and also will not give him a firing opportunity.
[/QUOTE
benny......i see your point........not that it matters.......but i think you're missing 1 serious point.........i see a LOT of guys in here that have fun just killin fast like that. i could name a couple that seem to get their rocks off on doin that, or diving from a 10k alt advantage, kill ya, then THEY come on 200 tellin ya how much ya s^%k...and i think the names wouldn't surprise too many of the pilots here as it seems to always be the same ones too,. thye seem to prefer the easy way. and...yes...i'm guilty too.......if i'm pilot wounded, or heavy damage, or been fired on first......my score though does reflect my skill(lack thereof):rofl and i wish i could find some really good fight so i could learn better. i'm finally tryin to jump outta my hurri2 and phlegm fighter into the 38.....loved the 38 in AW3, but can't fight in it here....yet.
COACH is a good example of an honorable pilot i think......me in 38j him in typhoon.......i messed up tryin to NOT give him a shot, and actually gave him the most perfect oppurtunity to ho me......instead he just flew by me, and grabbed his alt back........to kill me a couple minutes later:lol although i was momentarily P/O'd that i died in that fight, i DID have fun, and <> to coach for a fun fight too.......
one last thing.........if you're feelin kind one evening, and would like to help anyone in the 38...........PIKC ME!!!!PICK ME!!!!!!! I'LL have fun learnin either in DA or TA from a good 38 driver.......
:aok
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Originally posted by CAP1
this is what i just posted asking about........how does one avoid this then sir?:D
You already have the right idea. You're timing is probably just off. Nosing down to dive below him is the best HO avoidance manouver if you're already committed nose-to-nose. You are diving below his nose, out of his line of sight and even if he tries to follow it with his nose his shot window is exceptionally short.
Start at 1K out and push to near red-out. If he pushes too he will be fully redded out to make the shot. As soon as you're clear you can reverse. You might even be able to begin your reverse as soon as the nose starts dropping.
Note that pushing forward on the stick bleeds more E than pulling back on it so you may want to dive through a little to regain what you lost dependng on your initial E state.
Of course, THE best HO avoidance manouver is to gain seperation before the merge and turn into your opponent rather than flying straight at him.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You already have the right idea. You're timing is probably just off. Nosing down to dive below him is the best HO avoidance manouver if you're already committed nose-to-nose. You are diving below his nose, out of his line of sight and even if he tries to follow it with his nose his shot window is exceptionally short.
Start at 1K out and push to near red-out. If he pushes too he will be fully redded out to make the shot. As soon as you're clear you can reverse. You might even be able to begin your reverse as soon as the nose starts dropping.
Note that pushing forward on the stick bleeds more E than pulling back on it so you may want to dive through a little to regain what you lost dependng on your initial E state.
Of course, THE best HO avoidance manouver is to gain seperation before the merge and turn into your opponent rather than flying straight at him.
cool...its good to know that at least i'm doing something right........:D when i try to set up to turn into the nmy though.....if they see me, 99% of the time they continusouly(sorry for mispell) turn at me, till i end up either running away...which is hard in the slower planes.......or give up and try to fly at em and hope for the best.......sooner or later i'll learn to read others moves better and survive fights here........
word of advice BTW,,,,,,,,,,,when the BOP's are taking bases......its a REALLY bad idea to dive into their swarm alone:rofl those guys have their tactics down pat!!!:D
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Originally posted by SkyRock
blah blah blah puke blah! What a moron!:rolleyes:
You are still around?
I'd figure a score potato like yourself would be busy milk running targets in the MA during the day while the rest of us work...
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As for saying that the HO is a sissy tactic, think of two things...
1: in the MA today, chances are you are going to get HO'd if the situation presents itself, so as someone said before, why give the enemy a free ride.
2: WW2 pilots, many I know, regularly used the tactic. So, to call it a sissy tactic is like calling them sissies.
Bottomline is, if you don't like the HO, don't present someone that angle. If you do, I will be prepared to laugh at your whine.
:lol
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Originally posted by trax1
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone? I've never understood this tactic. There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do. It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them. When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds. I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.
I generally only go for the HO if its unavoidable or I'm flying a 190A8. Purely because most HO's end in a collision or something gets shot out (I like to save my bird). If I'm in the latter, I generally will lose the fight (because everyone is in an uber plane up high, like ponies and temps). BnZ is the 190a8 only real offensive manuever. Yes it rolls nicely, but this is mainly used in defensive manuevers because most people know the disadvantages of the 190 and will try to get you in a turn fight. So I call self-defense if I'm in a 190A8 because I know I can kill just about anything in the sky if I hit with my 30mm cannon.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Can anyone help me understand the difference between a combat turn/ pitchback and a chandelle? Or are they the same thing?
Im pretty sure the combat turn and the pitchback are the same thing. A chandelle is a similar maneuver but it starts and ends at the same alt: its a climbing, then diving turn, as opposed to a climbing turn like the pitchback.
A chandelle is not high yoyo, although they resemble each other in terms of flight paths, a yoyo is a maneuver relative to another aircraft, whereas a chandelle doesnt necessarily need to be. A chandelle is often done with another aircraft in close proximity, but its not *relative* to it, its independent to the other aircraft.
A yoyo is a tactic which employs a chandelle like flight-path, a chandelle is simply just a maneuver.
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originaly posted by red tail -
"Dear Mr. Ice Cube, Epstien will not be able to have a cameo role in your remake, he will be out sick that week.
signed, Epstien's Mom
"
LOL :aok
yeah those who wont go to DA usualy are just admiting that they wouldnt know what to do if they did go.
as a side note, i was using bodhi's statement as an example, not an attack.
have had a alot of fun flying with furball and bodhi on vox channel, amoung others, just a comment on the subject in question.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Can anyone help me understand the difference between a combat turn/ pitchback and a chandelle? Or are they the same thing?
A pitchback is U shaped. Basically a banked immelman. Say you enter at 45 deg bank, you exit reversed heading at 45 degrees inverted. Like a immelman or split-s, you technically have no roll input during the pitch reversal. You may also see a heading reversal that starts like an immelman, and ends as a pitchback referred to as a pitchback, but technically it is as i described above.
A chandelle is a climbing turn that's 1/2 spiral shaped. Say you enter at 45 degree bank, you adjust your roll angle slightly throughout the turn and approach reversed heading at roughly 45 degree bank.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
SkyRock<---slpas Freez for bringing down the skill level of the DA by being there!
:aok
Mark
u bastige!
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HO's were part of combat in WWII, but the extent at which they are relied on in AH is on the ridiculous side. Aside from the heavy US iron vs the lightly armored Japaneese planes, pilots did not intentionally place themselves in the opponents guns for a 'crap shoot' like most AH players do.
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Originally posted by Murdr
HO's were part of combat in WWII, but the extent at which they are relied on in AH is on the ridiculous side. Aside from the heavy US iron vs the lightly armored Japaneese planes, pilots did not intentionally place themselves in the opponents guns for a 'crap shoot' like most AH players do.
Exactly! Just because you fly a 110 that isn't as "uber" as other planes doesn't mean you have the right to be a flying flak gun, pivoting your nose into everyone else and squeezing off a burst of taters. Same goes for the Hurri, Niki, Typh, and any other cannon calamity. I'll be honest, when I first started playing the game over a year ago, I figured "they did it during the War, so it must be OK here too". However, since then, I've figured out how to be competitive in the game using the stick and my brain instead of beak-to-beak jousting. I take off now looking to LAND 4 or 5 kills instead of being satisfied with a solo kill, anyway I can get it. The bottom line is that anyone that takes the shot is basically signifying that they know no other way to get a solid gun solution. If both of you are in position to take the shot, why not just hold your fire, and continue. I expect them, plan for them, and most of the time, successfully avoid them. But, I still hate them. If you get into a turning/looping fight where both planes are achieving a gun solution simultaneously, try staying cold until either yourself or your opponent gets a decent shot. You may learn something. If you don't want to get gang-banged, bring friends. But don't fly solo into a pack of 4 or 5 bad guys and then try and justify your face-shooting by sanctimoniously exclaiming "I was 1 V 5 the hard way!!!". That's either a suicide mission or just plain bad S.A.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
But don't fly solo into a pack of 4 or 5 bad guys and then try and justify your face-shooting by sanctimoniously exclaiming "I was 1 V 5 the hard way!!!". That's either a suicide mission or just plain bad S.A.
... or incredibly fun!
OK, I don't think I've ever gotten out of a 1 on 5 alive but I have gotten out of a 1 on 4 alive and managed to get all of my opponents in 1 on 3's and 1 on 2's... but I practice in 1 on 10's in preperation :)
Incredibly, sometimes i get waxed in a 1 on 1 faster than in a 1 on 10.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
... or incredibly fun!
OK, I don't think I've ever gotten out of a 1 on 5 alive but I have gotten out of a 1 on 4 alive and managed to get all of my opponents in 1 on 3's and 1 on 2's... but I practice in 1 on 10's in preperation :)
Incredibly, sometimes i get waxed in a 1 on 1 faster than in a 1 on 10.
You want to take that challenge to see how well you can do--well, that's one thing. But, and I don't mean this in an inflamatory way because I typically respect how you conduct yourself, but take it how you will...How many of 'em do you HO to "even the odds"?
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not directed at anyone in particular.
there is a difference between having '3 cons in icon range + you alone' and a '3 on 1 fight'.
typically if i fight in the first situation from an advantage and kill all three, i do not consider that winning a 3 on 1.
likewise if i am at a disadvantage to the 3 enemy, and they all are taking shots at me before i have killed anything and i somehow go on to kill all three, that is what i consider winning a 3 on 1
just thought i'd mention as a general point, dont anyone take it personal like.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
You want to take that challenge to see how well you can do--well, that's one thing. But, and I don't mean this in an inflamatory way because I typically respect how you conduct yourself, but take it how you will...How many of 'em do you HO to "even the odds"?
Stoney:
I know there's a difference of opinion about this, but I think that especially in a multi-con environment its important to realize that there's a difference between a HO and a front quarter deflection shot.
I think of a HO like a joust -- 2 guys coming straight on each other, both hoping to knock the other off first. It's often used by weaker pilots because there's no aiming involved; you just point your nose at the guy flying straight towards you, and hold down the trigger.
Guys who like to fight against multiple cons HAVE to be willing to take front quarter shots, because you won't be able to get behind them all while each one is trying to get behind you. The key difference from a HO is that you are shooting before the opponent has an opportunity to shoot, while you try to prevent the opponent from getting a shot angle. THOSE SHOTS ARE NOT HOs, even though they come from the front side of the target.
Many players who complain about HOs are actually getting killed by nice defelction shots, and the shooters have nothing to be ashamed of IMHO. They are grabbing shots without giving them away, same as a pure 6 or even a 9 o'clock shooter is doing.
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There's one other type of head-on situation that most people don't recognize. This is where both fliers have the opportunity to shoot at each other simulataneously, as in a normal head-on firing pass, but one of them gallantly holds his fire. He moves his nose slightly away from his opponent to avoid an eventual collision, and as soon as he does so, the other flier sees that the first pilot no longer has gun solution - and shoots.
Now, a lot of H.O. lovers say that this was not a head-on, since they didn't both have gun solution. In my book, it was, because they did both have gun solution, and at the same time. One pilot only passed up the shot out of courtesy, and got burned for it.
The solution for the honorable flier is to keep his speed higher and increase the angle between his flight path and the enemy. However, the situation is most often found in duels between pilots who are not accustomed to fighting each other, immediately after the first merge. It's usually after both pilots have completed an Immelmann, and thus dodging is not an option due to the slow speed. Therefore, the solution is to not Immelmann if the other pilot also does so (or at least change the maneuver as soon as you realize it).
The solution for the player who doesn't hold his fire is to realize that the other guy let him have the shot. It's as simple as that. If he confronts you about it, don't try to pretend that it wasn't a head-on because he didn't have firing solution. He did, and it was.
This thread was not started to debate the validity, effectiveness, or courtesy of head-ons. It was started to discuss avoidance. I just had to clear up that one misunderstanding which I see so many have.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Stoney:
I know there's a difference of opinion about this, but I think that especially in a multi-con environment its important to realize that there's a difference between a HO and a front quarter deflection shot.
Agreed Sim... I just disagree with the notion that being outnumbered makes it somewhat more "morally" justifiable to shoot someone in the face.
I also agree with Benny regarding the second merge. If a guy gets around on me quicker, no problem if he has a shot and I don't. But if we both have shots, there's no advantage gained by either. I don't tend to think of it as a matter of "more honorable" or "gallant" that you don't take the shot. I think of it purely a matter of protecting my ride so I can shoot down more than one guy a mission and actually land.
Sorry for the hijack Benny...
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I think you misunderstood my situation. When the other pilot is roughly the same skill level as me, and we both Immelman, we both come around at exactly the same time and we both get gun solution. It's a head-on in every sense of the word - except that I choose not to shoot. Instead, I jink hard, rolling a few degrees and pulling (or, if I do not have enough energy, pushing) for a second or two.
If you end up nose to nose on an immelman merge, then you either failed to get good vertical flight path separation or your opponent is in a better turning plane and doing an immelman (or any turn) is not necessarily the best tactic to use against him.
You must be lower than your opponent at the start of an immelman merge. This allows you to pull a lead turn up into the enemy and you gain your angle advantage there. Otherwise you will end up in a one circle fight with continuous nose-to-nose passes. While your opponent can negate your flight path separation by going nose down towards you, the resulting increase in his speed (going down) and decrease in your speed (going up) should allow you to pull a tighter turn and still get the shot opportunity.
Regards,
Hammer
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Originally posted by Murdr
HO's were part of combat in WWII, but the extent at which they are relied on in AH is on the ridiculous side. Aside from the heavy US iron vs the lightly armored Japaneese planes, pilots did not intentionally place themselves in the opponents guns for a 'crap shoot' like most AH players do.
I think we can blame Quake and a lot of other FPS for the HO mentality. It's how you play those games - put the crosshair on the enemy, pull the trigger, and hope he dies first.
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blame FPS games? maybe true..
in my experience, the vast majority of human beings are very much like electricity, the path of least resistance is the most likely to be followed.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
You want to take that challenge to see how well you can do--well, that's one thing. But, and I don't mean this in an inflamatory way because I typically respect how you conduct yourself, but take it how you will...How many of 'em do you HO to "even the odds"?
Well, thank you for the compliment Stoney.
The answer to your question is as many as are willing to fly into my gunpath, whether that be a true HO, a forward deflection, a snapshot, a 6 shot or whatever. The exception is if I'm forced to turn by someone else before getting the shot off (i.e. what helps me more, killing the guy in front of me or avoiding the guy behind me). In an outnumbered environment I WILL take down as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible by whatever means possible to even the odds.
Bat, I agree. I was talking about turn fighting on the deck in a swarm of red, not cherry-picking the fringes from 2K above.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
(i.e. what helps me more, killing the guy in front of me or avoiding the guy behind me).
this is a very good point and in our game its one of the top catch 22 situations.
how many times have you found yourself in a 3 on 1 gangbang with, lets say, a spit16 an la7 and a nik2j? i know i have alot. now during this fight, any gun solution you miss or choose not to take could proove to be the reason you die 20 seconds later.
ive been in more fights than i can remember where i have made a nice solution on the [nik2j] and missed, then intantly forced to avoid the [spit16] on my tail, the overshoot and killing the [spit16] first chance. Now im avoiding the [la7] on my tail. i work the [la7] out infront and am about to pull the trigger when the [nik2j] comes tearing back round a half circle and shoots me down.
had i made that first shot i would have earnt 3 kills. missing meant i only got one kill and died right after.
in a way it is the same for a HO in this scenario. you choose not to HO the [nik2j] and in doing so get shot down by it a few seconds later as you fight the other two. personaly, i would still not take this shot. not so much out of honourbale intentions, mostly because overtime i developed an instant reaction to avoid the HO not shoot the HO, to the extent where if i do go for a HO shot i miss terribly as im so unacustomed to the technique of the HO shot.
well, forgive the wall of text, but i geuss all i mean is i agree with you on that point, and yet despite my prior knoledge of what will happen if i let the [nik2j] live, i still refuse to take the pure HO shot in 99% of all engagements.
that being said i dont look down on the outnumbered pilot if he/she chooses to HO me when im in the gang. i might not send an S! or whatever but i certainly would not whine about it.
if it was a definite 1 on 1 fight with a 6k to HO on merge, then yeah im gunna chew someones ear off about it, and let them know how i feel about the waste of time we just endured.
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Originally posted by hammer
If you end up nose to nose on an immelman merge, then you either failed to get good vertical flight path separation or your opponent is in a better turning plane and doing an immelman (or any turn) is not necessarily the best tactic to use against him.
That he is in a better turning fighter is almost a given, since I fly P-38 and P-47 and not a great deal of fighters turn worse than those. I realize that it's poor tactics to turn fight a Spitfire in my P-47, but none the less I do it for the challenge, and because I enjoy it - and also because I can, more often than not. However, it does lead to head-ons a lot, which is why I was wondering how best to merge to avoid them.
Next time I duel Freezman I'll try to film our first two or three merges.
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in the following .AHF film, make sure you note the absolute lack of HO's of any kind.
this kind of flying is what inspired me years ago to learn some moves and forget about just killing the enemy. i wanted to kill the enemy in ways that made me go 'wow, damn, that was sweet' to myself.
When you reach the level of experience, know-how, grace, fluid manouvers and generaly raw hard practiced talent of someone like BluKitty, Head Ons will be as if they never existed.
BLUKITTY 5 MINUTE FURBALL CLIP film link (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/twobirds.ahf)
i think we can all agree, that flying just makes you say 'OMFG'
anyone who thinks HO fighting is a skill, the above film will laugh in your face(shot)
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hehe blues got mad kitty skillz we already knew that all
hey bat u up for some duels? i typically am training peeps on thursday in the H2h room furballers.com
u know buot dom and bighorns dueling sight right?
furballers.com
look me up :aok
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yeah but everytime i log in its empty and dom is afk. i seem to be more likely to bump into him in other arenas. what name is bovihorn using?
domin/acmkraft used to be creton, right?
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No,Bat,
Domin and Bovi are compeltely different people from me,Domin is a newer player to the game who prefers 1v1 duels,and of course we all know who Bovi is ,if we can just keep up with his new name.
My names have been
97VICTOR
VIC
SPOOK
QUACHITA
CRETON
and my new variation is,Sythian.
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cretons alive!!!!!!:D
good to see ya bud ....... now dont hurt me:noid
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Oh, hello Creton! It has been very long since we duelled. That was still probably the best Me-109 flying I've ever seen (though EAce is also very good).
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I met this gentleman at his Flight School Class's (43-C) reunion, held at our CAF hangar. These guys all started in PT-19's and we got 3 -19's together to give them all rides.
Dick Hewitt engaged two FW-190's (on separate missons) with true HO tactics. His comment to me was "we couldn't let them get to the bombers".
Read his book: " Target of Opportunity - Tales and Contrails of the Second World War"
Richard A. Hewitt, a second year college engineering student in New York State, like so many Americans after the December 7, 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, chose to volunteer for service to his country. He joined the Army Air Corps in February, 1942. As a member of the Army Aviation Cadet Class, 43-C, Dick was commissioned as a second Lieutenant and received his wings on March 23, 1943.
After further training, he was assigned in the ETO to the 78th Fighter Group, 82nd Fighter Squadron, stationed at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, England, in September, 1943. Dick flew a total of 144 combat missions, combining a total of 400 hours of combat in the P-47 Thunderbolt and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.
During his combat tours with the 82nd, spanning over two years, he was credited with 8.3 victories, including 4 in the air; promoted to the rank of Major; awarded the Air Medal with 17 oak leaf clusters, awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 4 oak leaf clusters, and the Silver Star. He commanded the 82nd Fighter Squadron from March, 1945 through June, 1945.
HO's were used. For the life of me, I can't see why people make it a big deal here. If you have E, they are avoidable and the other guy is giving you an opportunity for angles. If you don't have E, you already made the first mistake. Do some of that pilot stuff, Mav.
As for Chandelle's, the "textbook" chandelle goes like this
:
The chandelle sounds deceptively simple; turn 180 degrees while gaining as much altitude as possible. Since the airplane is climbing and slowing down, the rate of turn increases as the maneuver progresses, which requires constantly changing elevator, aileron and rudder input. The chandelle ends with airplane headed in the opposite direction with wings level, several hundred feet higher, and with the stall warning blaring away. Since you end at minimum controllable airspeed, maintaining coordinated flight throughout the maneuver is a must.
While such a maneuver can put you in great position on your opponent, I'm personally not sure I want to be in the usual MA environment with the stall horn blaring away. I do that, but I find that in our busy environment being just above a stall for any length of time is an invitation to others to hose you down with lots of lead.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
There's one other type of head-on situation that most people don't recognize. This is where both fliers have the opportunity to shoot at each other simulataneously, as in a normal head-on firing pass, but one of them gallantly holds his fire. He moves his nose slightly away from his opponent to avoid an eventual collision, and as soon as he does so, the other flier sees that the first pilot no longer has gun solution - and shoots.
Now, a lot of H.O. lovers say that this was not a head-on, since they didn't both have gun solution. In my book, it was, because they did both have gun solution, and at the same time. One pilot only passed up the shot out of courtesy, and got burned for it.
The solution for the honorable flier is to keep his speed higher and increase the angle between his flight path and the enemy. However, the situation is most often found in duels between pilots who are not accustomed to fighting each other, immediately after the first merge. It's usually after both pilots have completed an Immelmann, and thus dodging is not an option due to the slow speed. Therefore, the solution is to not Immelmann if the other pilot also does so (or at least change the maneuver as soon as you realize it).
The solution for the player who doesn't hold his fire is to realize that the other guy let him have the shot. It's as simple as that. If he confronts you about it, don't try to pretend that it wasn't a head-on because he didn't have firing solution. He did, and it was.
This thread was not started to debate the validity, effectiveness, or courtesy of head-ons. It was started to discuss avoidance. I just had to clear up that one misunderstanding which I see so many have.
Benny your simply wrong here....
Once the initial merge is done then you have no HO....just a shot or no shot. That doesnt mean that you cant elect to follow other "rules". Often I'll pass on this type of shot...but you will rarely if ever get a good shot vs a top dueler on the "remerge". In fact managing the "remerge" is actually 90% of the fight. Most good duelers fly for the remerge not the merge....
very rarely do you actually have a true "HO" on the "remerge"....most of the time one guy gets around 1st...often he is also slightly out of plane. If your getting nailed on the remerge consistantly then your merge isnt good enough...
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Where do you get this statement? anyone that is going for the face shot is HOing!~ It doesn't matter on which turn or what arena, if you play thisgame and HO folks, you bring the game down a notch!:aok
I almost never HO, i'm simply pointing out the reality that a "face shot" on a remerge in a duel is not a HO...just that simple. does that mean I'll take em...almost never. But I dont assume the other guy wont. You can avoid the remerge "HO" as easily as the HO on the opener. Now if you want to stipulate no shots from in front of the 3/9 line or whatever great.
I almost never take those shots personally but that doesnt mean its not "honorable"...unless you've limited them before hand.
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If im low and slow in my A8 and see a turner (sheitfire, niki, a6m, hurricane) infront of me ill HO their brains out. If i have abit of speed and afew options to avoid it and get into a fight ill do it.
The annoying HOes are those taken by oPEOPLEo who has alot of options but choose the HO anyway. :D
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Originally posted by Creton
No,Bat,
Domin and Bovi are compeltely different people from me,Domin is a newer player to the game who prefers 1v1 duels,and of course we all know who Bovi is ,if we can just keep up with his new name.
hehe was kinda joking. i remember when domin was first here and learning the basics(quickly). these days he flat out waxes me almost everytime.
I'd like to take this chance to say im sorry, creton. I sorry that i got worked up about a game and in doing so lost my temper at something you did i didnt agree with. i havnt changed my thoughts on the subject, but i have realised that by now i would still rather see you around and say hey rather than not.
i actualy thought i was fighting either you or bighorn the other day in h2h, it must have bighorn. Dieslrae.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
If im low and slow in my A8 and see a turner (sheitfire, niki, a6m, hurricane) infront of me ill HO their brains out. If i have abit of speed and afew options to avoid it and get into a fight ill do it...:D
You do the same thing in a P-51B when you're low and slow? Also, what convergence do you set all those Tater guns at on your A8?
MAD apparently is not the detterent in AH2 that it was during the Cold War... Going into a second merge, if both folks have a shot, that's what we're talking about--MAD. Seems to me there ought to be a bit more to a good duel--its just jousting otherwise.
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jousting is for losers of internet flight sim games!
Take the time to master the air, it's worht it!
:aok
Mark
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ty Cap and
Also... I appreciate your attitude :aok
btw, I would suggest to all who would like to learn the finer points of ACM.... see if you can get a training session from Ren. IMHO he is one of the best teachers here. At least he was 10 yrs ago :D
Coach
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Cheese taught me everything I knew... :huh
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Originally posted by Scotch
Cheese taught me everything I knew... :huh
Oh my! :eek:
Was Wine around too??
I'm scared to ask who this is :D
Coach
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Originally posted by Creton
and my new variation is,Sythian.
lol, you were easy to figure out bud. Who was the other guy though?
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other guy?
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Creton, havnt seen you in game for a while.
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Originally posted by Creton
other guy?
Comon now, the guy I was fighting. He abviusly was talking to you since he was asking to fight the second spit. Only way he'd know I was teh second spit would be if you were talking to him.
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Avaro typed to me saying he was fighting the first spit,but i have no idea who he is.
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Originally posted by Creton
Avaro typed to me saying he was fighting the first spit,but i have no idea who he is.
:rofl ok
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Personally I try to turn slightly before the merge if I can get away with it. That way it gives you more time to react to his next move and hopefully keep you out of that kind of situation. That can get you in trouble if the guy is quick and can see what you are trying to do, but most guys never do.
In reality it just depends what kind of plane you are in.. If I'm in a fast plane and he's in a good turner, I'll just keep my speed and let him turn while I keep going straight. At that point I'll try and climb a little to get an alt advantage on the other guy. Then plan another attack.
Patience is your friend, no need to rush it if you have the option not to. Personally I try to avoid that kind of continuous head on fight if at all possible. It really never turns out good as you have a 50/50 chance in winning it.
IMO if the con gets a chance to do a second HO on you, then you didn't do your job in putting him on the defense. Your job is to be the attacker and fly offense the cons job is to die on the defense.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird. But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.
1)well......i think it was you that helped me on this one a bit.....i dive in an attempt to go under my opponent....and about 1k or so out, i kick a bit of rudder either way, to thorw off his line up....i also chop throttle at this point as i'm pulling up, trying to allow a tighter turn(in the vert)and hopefully beat him to the rollout to level....works bout 50% of the time.
I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later. I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.
The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window. I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough. Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Not likely! Didn't you see Flyboys? After watching that even I had a guilty urge to go head-on with someone.
how about diving straight down on em too.........you KNOW those paper airplanes they flew back then couldn't possibly pull out like they did in that movie.......
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Remember that every turn where you meet at 0 to 30 deg is a new merge. The first merge only sets the stage. On the second merge after the first turn its just like you were merging for the first time. Each merge initiates a new fight.
If you merge correctly the first time you should be in a position to gain control. This may mean giving him angles but it is only fleeting. It is a trick in disquise. The player who attempts to bring his nose direclty at you on the second merge is only setting himself up for a lead turn of some kind.
Anytime a player goes for a HO shot it puts you at an immediate advantage. When they do this if you are thinking about ACM and not trying to HO back you can EASILY lead turn out of the gun envelope and be either at guns on them immediatly or dropping in for a saddle shot.
They can not react to your lead turn if they are going for guns. Its a simple fact of geometry. They go for HO you lead turn and come around on there six.
That second merge you are asking about is your golden oppurtunity to win. 99% of players can not resist taking a shot of some kind at that point. Knowing this it is easy to draw them into a sucker set up.
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Below is my LONG short story about HO in general
Some people here just don't get the whole HO thing.
As someone pointed out earlier HO was used in real combat...BUT...there was a reason....as stated "to protect the bombers". That was the whole point of having fighters in the air. Fighter sweeps were rare. When faced with 100 me109's coming in to shoot up allied bombers they did everything and anything to protect them which did include a first pass HO shot on the bounce even if it meant getting killed your self. It was real combat and people do gallant things to do their job. After that it was gangbang wingman tactics. All the things we hait in this game such as HO, cherry picking, gangbanging, vulching were done as much as possible in REAL combat. If you got caught alone you were dead. Allied fighters never engaged without a wingman. Loosing your wingman in a fight almost always meant you were in big trouble if you lived to land. It was ALL about the bombers and protecting them.
When in the special events areana and your side is to protect an asset such as a carrier in order to win then HO or any other tactic is absolutly fair. You have a mission....and your duty is to do what it takes to win.
With 20 Mossies diving on a carrier you better HO pass every one you can. Do anything to kill them because that is the point.....NOT getting into a 1v1. That is not what a mission like this is about.
BUT in the MA....this is a totally different scenario. People here like to engage in ACM. Be it 5v1 or 1v1. HO here is a show of how you lack talent.
And in the DA if you HO you are what the FPS game players would call a "bunny hopper". A bunny hopper is equivelent to a skilless dweeb.
THE MA IS NOT I REPEAT NOT REAL LIFE. IT IS A GAME THAT WE PLAY TO HAVE FUN. We play to use ACM tactics. The whole point is to "Out Fly" your opponent. Like it or not MOST playes think you are a skilless bunny hopper if you HO. A HO is not an ACM tactic. It is a desperate attempt to get a kill for no other reason than to up your score. It has nothing to do with ACM. A HO because you are out numbered is still a skilless move. First don't put yourself there and if you do its your fault. Learn to fly so that you can either get a 1v1 or take on a 3v1 with or without advantage. If you get caught in a 1 v5 or more well you better run. HO to even the odds is still a dweeb move. Either fight with angles, out climb or call in some help. But HO is just a waste of everyones time.
This is a quote from the book "In Pursuit"
"....for every move you make he has an answer. Whatever you try, he's right there on top of you. Even scissors doesn't work. He anticipates your every move and isn't foxed by desperate attempts such as cutting throttle or throwing out flaps. He just won't let go. However, he's not firing. You've been dodging him for a good 5 min already, and he has yet to fire his guns? Is he out of ammo? Why then is he following you around? Is he trying to make you auger, or run you out of fuel? He keeps coming closer. You can see the individual blades in his propeller, the evil grin beneath those blank goggles.....NOW HE FIRES, when he cannot miss! You dodge, you skid, you roll like crazy. Still he won't let go. You swirl like a dervish, and he matches your every move - not wasting a single bullet! YOU are sweating bullets! You know that the instant you fumble, the isntant you mush, the instant you become predictable, it will be the end."
This is what I strive for. NOT a skilless HO shot because there is more than one con or so I can up my score ( scores are meaningless)
I think a lot of HO players come from FPS games like counter stirke and the like. There they are used to using bunny hoping game exploits to do nothing but get kills. They have no concept of "tactics". They just think its a flying automatic weapon to carelessly fly around looking to blow someting up. They mis understand history and think because BUD, Yeager, or whoever ACE did it then its legit in AH2. I am sorry to inform you that this is a game where we try to engage in crafty ACM in which one pilot out performs the other. That is fun.
---I win on the word count here....LOL If you have actually read this far I Salute you!!!!!
PS. If anyone tries a HO on me be prepared to experience what is described in the quoted paragraph above because I will lead turn you and you will be dead in 60 sec or less. You HO I get angles. You try a HO a second time I get more angles. Third time you are dead from a saddled six burst. Cheers!!! :D
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wow long whinded ehh agent:D
lol from what i read i think i agree?
we oughta da again sometime
-freezman
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LOL Freeze
Yea it was a long post but tht was the only way I could get my point across on one post....LOL
Yea, I would love to DA. Anytime Im on PM me and we will go for a few rounds until I get tired of being target practice for you....LOL
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Originally posted by Agent360
It is a trick in disquise. The player who attempts to bring his nose direclty at you on the second merge is only setting himself up for a lead turn of some kind.
Cerfull with that though. Cannon birds need less than a second to kill you. I do it all the time Vs 50cals but vs Spits, I dont always survive that move.
Anytime a player goes for a HO shot it puts you at an immediate advantage. When they do this if you are thinking about ACM and not trying to HO back you can EASILY lead turn out of the gun envelope and be either at guns on them immediatly or dropping in for a saddle shot.
Again, true if they miss. After the second merge when you are both very slow, you will get hosed. Not match you can do to avoid. The problem in DA is that when we end up HO, I am stupid enough to try to avoid the HO. Even with guys that I know will not take the shot, I have the colision to wory about. What ends up happening is that because it is all about wining and most of them know what will happen eventually, they are willing to risk the colison than try to break. So, if you pull out as you already are nice and slow, you expose your belly and they kill you. Then they send a good fight and come post about their skillz. So, if the guy you are fighting is not there for fun but to win, you have to risk the colision or HO, or you give them a clean belly shot.
They can not react to your lead turn if they are going for guns. Its a simple fact of geometry. They go for HO you lead turn and come around on there six.
Not true Agent. Only tru if you are fighting a newbe. The fact is that if you guys merge at the same speeds, it does not take match to end up fascing each other. HOs, no mater what people say, cannot always be avoided. The moment you try, you will get killed by a 2 degree deflection shot. Ask the aces. Most of them make a leaving out of that. Oh yeah, and if you play their game, they will call you a ram tard lol
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Dedalos,
I agree with all your points.
The trick is to make the lead turn out of the gun envelope, or pass through the envelope with enough speed and some vert/oblique angle to make the shot near luck if it hits. Now this is easier said than done.
Fundamentally, though an attempt to go for guns puts you at a disadvantage. Whether that is capitalized on properly is another matter.
I guess an easy way of putting my point is this: Anytime you go for guns you give up angles and the defender get the same amount of angles you gave.
Lead turning can be done a number of different ways depending on how you are merging. If its obvious the con is going for guns you should have time to make an adjustment. It is not always necessary to make a lead turn that gives a gun solution. Often this lead turn is a bait move not in guns range leading up to a reversal conversion.
If you both pull hard and come around at near stall it is very difficult to initiate an angles gaining lead turn. BUT it can be done.
I think the real trick is to come into the second merge with more E. Even if it is just a skosh more this will give you an oppurtunity convert this E to angles in respect to the con going for guns.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
If im low and slow in my A8 and see a turner (sheitfire, niki, a6m, hurricane) infront of me ill HO their brains out. If i have abit of speed and afew options to avoid it and get into a fight ill do it.
The annoying HOes are those taken by oPEOPLEo who has alot of options but choose the HO anyway. :D
kinda like the lala passengers that have plenty of speed and alt?:D
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Originally posted by Agent360
Dedalos,
I agree with all your points.
The trick is to make the lead turn out of the gun envelope, or pass through the envelope with enough speed and some vert/oblique angle to make the shot near luck if it hits. Now this is easier said than done.
Fundamentally, though an attempt to go for guns puts you at a disadvantage. Whether that is capitalized on properly is another matter.
I guess an easy way of putting my point is this: Anytime you go for guns you give up angles and the defender get the same amount of angles you gave.
Lead turning can be done a number of different ways depending on how you are merging. If its obvious the con is going for guns you should have time to make an adjustment. It is not always necessary to make a lead turn that gives a gun solution. Often this lead turn is a bait move not in guns range leading up to a reversal conversion.
If you both pull hard and come around at near stall it is very difficult to initiate an angles gaining lead turn. BUT it can be done.
I think the real trick is to come into the second merge with more E. Even if it is just a skosh more this will give you an oppurtunity convert this E to angles in respect to the con going for guns.
Well, you do give angles, but the assumption here is that the guy going fo guns will miss. If he does you are right, but is he going to?
Next time we are in the DA, look at your speed after the first merge. Better yet, look at it after the second merge. Making the guy that is willing to take the colision miss the belly shot is nearly impossible.
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Who dredged up this old thread?
I don't get the constant "If he tries to HO me he'll be dead in 30 seconds" cr*p. What a bunch of BS. Maybe on Noobs.
If you fly straight at someone you are setting up to take and also offering a HO. It's up either or both of you to take or accept the HO.
If you dive out, turn in, Immelman or in some other way do not go nose to nose you are denying them the HO. If they do get a shot on you it isn't a HO shot anymore, it's a deflection shot.
So, if you set up to take or offer a HO how in h*** are you doing anything different from the other guy that's going to give you this big "dead in 30 seconds" advantage?
If you deny the HO, instead offering a deflection opportunity, you should be able to come around on him for the kill if he trys to turn after going for the shot but if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.
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if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.
I usually go nose down on an intial merge and then lead turn upwards. If he does fly straight thru ... most likely he/she will just continue to go away.
On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT ... and if the HOer does decide to turn, and not fly straight thru ... they usually are dead within 30 seconds.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.
I usually go nose down on an intial merge and then lead turn upwards. If he does fly straight thru ... most likely he/she will just continue to go away.
On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT ... and if the HOer does decide to turn, and not fly straight thru ... they usually are dead within 30 seconds.
SlapShot, I know you know this but don't confuse speed with E. E is the sum total of speed and altitude. Yes, you converted speed for alt in an attempt to maintain E plus gain a turning advantage by slowing down but any type of turn or manouver bleeds E, even if it's only a small amount.
BTW, I did concede that if they try to turn after trying the deflection shot they are probably in trouble.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
SlapShot, I know you know this but don't confuse speed with E. E is the sum total of speed and altitude. Yes, you converted speed for alt in an attempt to maintain E plus gain a turning advantage by slowing down but any type of turn or manouver bleeds E, even if it's only a small amount.
BTW, I did concede that if they try to turn after trying the deflection shot they are probably in trouble.
I didn't think I was confused ...
There are 2 types of Energy ... Kinetic (speed) and Potential (altitude). I simply trade kinetic for potential ... so in essence, I really didn't lose anything in theory ... just traded.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I didn't think I was confused ...
There are 2 types of Energy ... Kinetic (speed) and Potential (altitude). I simply trade kinetic for potential ... so in essence, I really didn't lose anything in theory ... just traded.
Depends on how hard you pulled on the stick doesnt it?
As far as the 30 seconds go, that would have been the case anyway with you right? HO or not, you most likely would have killed him in less than 30 seconds
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When you said "On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT " you should have said; On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some SPEED, but I transferred it to ALT.
No biggie but I see this on the boards all the time where the words Speed and E are interchangable. They aren't. I've explained this in the Help Forums before too and it was enlighting to see how many thought E was simply speed and then see the lightbulbs going on in their responses as they got it.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Depends on how hard you pulled on the stick doesnt it?
As far as the 30 seconds go, that would have been the case anyway with you right? HO or not, you most likely would have killed him in less than 30 seconds
I would think that the amount pull on the stick transferring kinetic to potential does determine the amount of potential ... but I have alt ABOVE (or at least thats what I want to achieve) my target.
30 seconds seems to be reasonable ... I will die within that time period or the other guy will ... longer than that is what I hope for for every dogfighting engagment.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
When you said "On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT " you should have said; On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some SPEED, but I transferred it to ALT.
No biggie but I see this on the boards all the time where the words Speed and E are interchangable. They aren't. I've explained this in the Help Forums before too and it was enlighting to see how many thought E was simply speed and then see the lightbulbs going on in their responses as they got it.
Your right ... I should have said I gave up kinetic energy for potential energy.
:aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
30 seconds seems to be reasonable ... I will die within that time period or the other guy will ... longer than that is what I hope for for every dogfighting engagment.
:rofl I was talking about the other guy
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Originally posted by Toad
I usually find them in EW and MW almost every night. There can be some gangin' but it's the exception not the rule.
Cya there!
I must be playing in there at the wrong times. The last couple of months when I've entered the MW, there was not one single fight going on. Everyone was in extreme ends of the maps milk running.
ack-ack
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Funny! i have been on a HO rant for a month now!! I have found better than 90% of HOs against me are fron veteran pilots!! Isn't that interesting :):rofl
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I must be playing in there at the wrong times. The last couple of months when I've entered the MW, there was not one single fight going on. Everyone was in extreme ends of the maps milk running.
ack-ack
LOL ... Toad and I will take off from a base/CV with rockets and he will announce over CH 200 ... "Hey Slappy, did u bring rockets or eggs for Axx town ?" ... then I will respond ... "oops !!!"
Once Axx starts blinking, we usually will get some lifters ... if not, we will then start dumping rockets on the town and then they start coming out like bees out of the hive.
Best to do this with a CV nearby so you can keep coming back at them and they keep coming out.
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Slap and I are the UberAwesumness at base taking in MW and EW.
We are unstoppable! We are BaseBorgs!
If only I could stop accidentally announcing which base we are taking on CH 200, we would roll up an entire map in 1 hour!
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Originally posted by Toad
Slap and I are the UberAwesumness at base taking in MW and EW.
We are unstoppable! We are BaseBorgs!
If only I could stop accidentally announcing which base we are taking on CH 200, we would roll up an entire map in 1 hour!
You guys reminded me of a funny story. Remember Outkast? Back in AH1 he deacked a field and waited for some uppers to vulch. Since no one was taking off, he put something simillar on 200. So, I rolled out of the FH and watched his 51 dive in for the vulch. Problem was that he was too high and I had time to pull gear up :D
I rolled, he missed, I fired :D ohhhhhhh 200 was so beautiffull after that. He put SkyRock to shame :rofl