Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Atoon on May 23, 2007, 12:58:52 AM
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at: http://pol.moveon.org/stoppricegouging/
I hope im not crossing any lines here, surely we all agree SOMTHING must be done.......
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conserve?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
conserve?
Don't go getting all crazy now...
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How about getting rid of some of your SUV.s with one person in them on the Highways!
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Originally posted by Heater
How about getting rid of some of your SUV.s with one person in them on the Highways!
But that would hurt the bottom line of Royal Dutch Shell...
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A fox guarding the hen house. :)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
A fox guarding the hen house. :)
And you get chicken for supper every night. :D
Regards,
Sun
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"big oil" lol:rofl
In florida we have "big sugar" also
gotta love trying to promote class envy/warfare
maybe in Wisconsin they have "big cheese"?
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move on dot org :rofl a toon :rofl thanks for the great chuckle, what a tool.
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Look at the counter there, bet its rigged :rofl
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Originally posted by Atoon
at: http://pol.moveon.org/stoppricegouging/
I hope im not crossing any lines here, surely we all agree SOMTHING must be done.......
Nice thought, and all that... But nobody that was elected has listened to the majority of their constituants to date... Fot that matter, the majority of the voter base are so g'damned missinformed, that were they ever to get a clue you would be astounded at how fast incumbents names would be replaced!
How else do you explain DeadHead Ted's, and other slackers continued successes?
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Originally posted by Atoon
at: http://pol.moveon.org/stoppricegouging/
I hope im not crossing any lines here, surely we all agree SOMTHING must be done.......
Punish a company for charging the market rates for their commodity?
Seems dumb to me.
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Lets go back to a regulated market so we can pay even more per gallon and have rationing again!
Charon
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adjusted for inflation, gas is still too cheap for our own good
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There are many things we, the consumers can do, to reduce the cost of fuel. But you have to actually participate in order to make a difference.
Remember, high fuel prices means higher grocery bills, goods, services, etc. It doesn't stop at SUV's, it continues to hit your pockets right down to the babie's diapers.
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Originally posted by Odee
Nice thought, and all that... But nobody that was elected has listened to the majority of their constituants to date... Fot that matter, the majority of the voter base are so g'damned missinformed, that were they ever to get a clue you would be astounded at how fast incumbents names would be replaced!
How else do you explain DeadHead Ted's, and other slackers continued successes?
Moveon.org is one of those reasons.
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Surely we don't all agree.
You guys won't like socialism, you won't like it one darn bit, but just keep begging for it, you're making headway.
Fuel is Power. Many of you are allowing the debate to go right over your heads. Gas is Cheap, heck a bottled water and can of soda cost more, where's the outrage there? The "leaders" are fueling your fight over fuel prices so you are distracted over the real fight, and that's the Freedom to do as you please. This is America, and Industrial Nation, and we travel, we build, and we grow. We need Fuel to do this, and the Only way to stop the nation is to cut off our fuel. They cannot do it militarily, so they will twist the debate and cause a bunch of week kneed people to cry over the cost of fuel and YOU'LL do it for them. Restricting, Rationing, Penalizing.
There is going to come a time where those of us that Do produce are going to get sick and tired of the stupidity, and then there's going to be a real problem. Imagine the backlash when a bunch of meat eating, gun toting, SUV driving Red Blooded Americans have their fill of unarmed vegan prius driving nannies.
For the moment, to each his own, drive,eat what you want. You're starting to annoy us though, just so you know. The clear difference is some of us don't care what you do, just don't tell me what to do. Some of you are crossing the line, tread lightly.
hehe, I had this same conversation with my mom in law after she was complaining about gas, Man did that make for an exciting mothers day lmao Mom's mouth gaping, eyes wide with horror. Nephews going YA YA YA :rofl
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As long as oil is the primary source of energy for the world, and so long as about half of the oil supplies in the world come from unstable parts of the world, and as the reality of oil production capacity is just over oil demand, and as remaining oil reserves that can be economically exploited are dwindling....
... then the economies of the west are highly vulnerable to any disruptions or threats to oil supplies. Real or perceived.
It is also a problem that a significant percentage of oil profits to many of those oil producing countries wind up funding anti-western organizations and terrorists groups, often in the same regions where the oil comes from.
50 to 100 years ago, this would have been seen as a threat to national security, and efforts on par with the Apollo Program or Manhattan Project may have been created to pursue and secure alternatives.
Government today does not have that kind of leadership, and say things about allowing "markets" to pursue new technologies, but why would the oil, transportation, and energy industry invest serious time, money, or effort into developing alternative energy as long as governments are willing to spend money and lives in diplomatic, economic, and military efforts to secure the existing oil supplies? Or wait until the government decides to fund the necessary research, development, and deployment under lucrative government contracts?
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Government today does not have that kind of leadership, and say things about allowing "markets" to pursue new technologies, but why would the oil, transportation, and energy industry invest serious time, money, or effort into developing alternative energy as long as governments are willing to spend money and lives in diplomatic, economic, and military efforts to secure the existing oil supplies? Or wait until the government decides to fund the necessary research, development, and deployment under lucrative government contracts?
We already have the alternative. People are just confused about it, and scared by it. Pretty sad since it's probably the best alternative we have, and it just happens to already work.
(http://www.anthonares.net/pebble_nuclear.jpg)
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Originally posted by ROC
Surely we don't all agree.
You guys won't like socialism, you won't like it one darn bit, but just keep begging for it, you're making headway.
Fuel is Power. Many of you are allowing the debate to go right over your heads. Gas is Cheap, heck a bottled water and can of soda cost more, where's the outrage there? The "leaders" are fueling your fight over fuel prices so you are distracted over the real fight, and that's the Freedom to do as you please. This is America, and Industrial Nation, and we travel, we build, and we grow. We need Fuel to do this, and the Only way to stop the nation is to cut off our fuel. They cannot do it militarily, so they will twist the debate and cause a bunch of week kneed people to cry over the cost of fuel and YOU'LL do it for them. Restricting, Rationing, Penalizing.
There is going to come a time where those of us that Do produce are going to get sick and tired of the stupidity, and then there's going to be a real problem. Imagine the backlash when a bunch of meat eating, gun toting, SUV driving Red Blooded Americans have their fill of unarmed vegan prius driving nannies.
For the moment, to each his own, drive,eat what you want. You're starting to annoy us though, just so you know. The clear difference is some of us don't care what you do, just don't tell me what to do. Some of you are crossing the line, tread lightly.
hehe, I had this same conversation with my mom in law after she was complaining about gas, Man did that make for an exciting mothers day lmao Mom's mouth gaping, eyes wide with horror. Nephews going YA YA YA :rofl
Well said ROC. It is comforting to know that somebody else gets it!
I hope gas goes up to $8/gallon. Then I won't have to share the road with so many cars on the way to work everyday.
If you do not like gas prices, buy a bike, and either walk to places or stay home over the weekend, but don't talk crap about using the government to moderate a free market. That is a recipe for nothing but trouble.
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Price controls don't work.
This just in.
You'd think these fools had never taken an economics class.
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Originally posted by Eagler
adjusted for inflation, gas is still too cheap for our own good
I agree. I wish more folks would take public transportation and leave the roads open for those of us who will drive no matter what the cost.
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Originally posted by ROC
Surely we don't all agree.
You guys won't like socialism, you won't like it one darn bit, but just keep begging for it, you're making headway.
Fuel is Power. Many of you are allowing the debate to go right over your heads. Gas is Cheap, heck a bottled water and can of soda cost more, where's the outrage there? The "leaders" are fueling your fight over fuel prices so you are distracted over the real fight, and that's the Freedom to do as you please. This is America, and Industrial Nation, and we travel, we build, and we grow. We need Fuel to do this, and the Only way to stop the nation is to cut off our fuel. They cannot do it militarily, so they will twist the debate and cause a bunch of week kneed people to cry over the cost of fuel and YOU'LL do it for them. Restricting, Rationing, Penalizing.
There is going to come a time where those of us that Do produce are going to get sick and tired of the stupidity, and then there's going to be a real problem. Imagine the backlash when a bunch of meat eating, gun toting, SUV driving Red Blooded Americans have their fill of unarmed vegan prius driving nannies.
For the moment, to each his own, drive,eat what you want. You're starting to annoy us though, just so you know. The clear difference is some of us don't care what you do, just don't tell me what to do. Some of you are crossing the line, tread lightly.
hehe, I had this same conversation with my mom in law after she was complaining about gas, Man did that make for an exciting mothers day lmao Mom's mouth gaping, eyes wide with horror. Nephews going YA YA YA :rofl
:rofl how true.
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The price of fuel?
I blame NASCAR Rednecks!
:D
Mac
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Originally posted by Charon
Lets go back to a regulated market so we can pay even more per gallon and have rationing again!
Charon
You do realize that when we deregulated the phones, oil, and such... and all those promises of competition spurring lower prices to the customers and better service?
Never came true, now did it... In fact, prices went higher and service got poorer.
Yeah I think it's about time we went back to regulation and monopolys again. Wasn't broke in the first place.
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Originally posted by indy007
We already have the alternative. People are just confused about it, and scared by it. Pretty sad since it's probably the best alternative we have, and it just happens to already work.
(http://www.anthonares.net/pebble_nuclear.jpg)
YAY NUKE POWER! think of all the carbon emissions we could have eliminated over the past three decades if it wasn't for the greenies hating nukes! Global warming? Blame Greenpeace.
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I hope Bush vetoes the bill.
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Yeah I think it's about time we went back to regulation and monopolys again. Wasn't broke in the first place.
We were deregulated since about 1920 (after Standard Oil was dismantled) until the 1970s when Nixon regulated the downstream oil industry with price controls. That led to rationing, outages and prices higher than today at times adjusted for inflation. It was deregulated in 1981. That led to lower prices and regular supply. That is still the case today. You may not like the price, but then I would suggest that you regulate the commodities markets first.
Not even the major consumer advocates are calling for price controls and other direct intervention in the market today.
Charon
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Price controls are certainly not the answer. That people in the United States are looking to Congress to fix the rising price of oil is hilarious. Its market driven and too much of that market is tied to highly volatile parts of the world. You can't legislate Venezuela's retaking control of its oil fields away from foreign oil companies. You can't legislate peace in the Middle East on African nations to secure oil supplies.
More people with axes to grind against the west are beginning to realize how much they can hurt the west by disrupting oil. Western economies and public perception are sensitive to it. Expect this trend to continue and the price of oil to rise.
As long as we remain an oil energy driven economy, we will suffer price fluctuations. Once we are well into the period of "Peak Oil", either by the market's perception or hard reality, these price increases will continue.
An alternative energy strategy is the only way out of this, but other than a few pet projects, I don't see any serious effort being put forth along these lines in the foreseeable future.
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Price controls are certainly not the answer. That people in the United States are looking to Congress to fix the rising price of oil is hilarious. Its market driven and too much of that market is tied to highly volatile parts of the world. You can't legislate Venezuela's retaking control of its oil fields away from foreign oil companies. You can't legislate peace in the Middle East on African nations to secure oil supplies.
It's not that hilarious. The people completely misunderstand economics and even history back to roughly 30 years ago.
Just as much as you can't enact price controls, you can't legislate stupidity.
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I've always found that calling people ignorant and stupid, while trumpeting my own massive intelligence, is a great technique in the grown-up world of business. It really sets the right tone for open discussion and everyone in the room immediately listens and respects my opinions after that, without fail.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Rolex
I've always found that calling people ignorant and stupid, while trumpeting my own massive intelligence, is a great technique in the grown-up world of business. It really sets the right tone for open discussion and everyone in the room immediately listens and respects my opinions after that, without fail.
:rolleyes:
So true....
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Yeah... and record profits for the oil companies has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Profit per unit in the oil business is LOW, not high. The reason oil companies post such high profits is not their margin, but the purchase volume of those who consume their product.
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We we warned back in the 80's. Did people change? Did car makers change? Did big oil change? Nuhuh never happened.
Now I hear of 100 to 200 mpg sports car that does 0 - 60 in 3 seconds.
Turbine hybrid car (http://jalopnik.com/cars/alternative-energy/super-efficiency-200-mpg-velozzi-micro+turbine-electric-hybrid-255528.php)
Will we see this for sale in this country this decade? I'm betting not.
Big oil and the big car makers are in bed with each other. They don't WANT us to change. They don't want to see the good times end. But the fact is we are going to run out of oil. We have tapped almost all of the "easy" oil, from here on it its going to cost us more and more.
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"Big oil" and the car companies are in bed together?
Let's get real. Without making the cars EXTREMELY small, there is a limit to how much fuel economy you can get. There is only so much energy in a gallon of gasoline. For gasoline power, we've reached the point of diminishing returns. The public is NOT WILLING to accept cars that are smaller than the current economy cars, nor are they willing to accept less powerful cars. So, as a car manufacturer, already barely staying out of bankruptcy at best, would you spend BILLIONS of dollars you don't have developing a car your customers
DON'T WANT? Not if you want to have a prayer of staying in business.
By the way, think about it from the point of view of the oil companies. You have a product with a low per unit profit. You have a limited capacity to produce the product, because of limited facilities. The government declares that new facilities must meet higher standards in all areas. The government also declares the intention to increase the supply of a competing product, and in fact declares the intent to subsidize the production and distribution of the competing product. So, making among the smallest per unit profit margin of all products, do you invest BILLIONS to increase production capacity, when it will take decades to recover that investment, and the government is funding your competition?
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JFK showed us that we can accomplish monumental things if we make it a matter of national pride and security. He got up in front of the nation and, despite the openly expressed doubts about its feasibility said, we will make the goal of this nation that within 10 years we will send men to the moon and return them safely (paraphrase). I want to hear something like this from even one presidential candidate.
We will make it the goal of this nation that within 10 years we will reduce our dependence on foreign sources of energy to ZERO. We will do so by taking the following steps:
1. Streamline the regulatory process for the approval of nuclear power reactors, with particular emphasis on new and safer nuclear plants such as Pebble-bed High Temperature Gas Reactors (HTGR), with the goal of 80 percent of all electrical power generation being from nuclear power.
2. Eliminate individual state-by-state fuel formulations in favor of a single national fuel formulation. This will simplify and streamline distribution and eliminate local fuel shortages.
3. Expand federal incentives and funding of hydrocarbon fuel conversion technologies, such as coal-into-oil and waste-into-oil programs.
4. Streamline the regulatory and approval process for accessing existing indigenous sources of hydrocarbon fuels (coal and gas), such as ANWAR, Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters, and the Gulf of Mexico.
5. Finally, offer increased federal incentives to states and industry to develop infrastruct to support alternate fuel vehicles (such as hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cell technologies).
Elimination of dependence on foreign energy through the above multi-faceted plan would be the single most important thing we could do for national security, the economy, and the environment. Then we could tell the Middle East and Venezuela to go pound sand.
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Wonder Bread made record profits at one point too. Walmart is making record profits. Silly Putty set a record also.
Markets Grow, of Course they are going to show Record Profits. Do you expect Your wages to increase? 1 year stand out more than the rest? Want that Regulated? How Dare You have a banner year, there were Homeless on the streets!
Come on people, are you kidding me? Does CNN really have that much influence with their mindless soundbites? Are you that easily swayed? My company made record profits last year also. But then, we tripled our business so I sure as heck Hope we did! For crying out loud :rofl
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it isn't about the price of gas .. it is about class envy .. the attempt of the rich left to brain wash the masses into thinking the rich right is evil and that if the less than rich want to have it all (via gov help/handouts) they need to vote for the rich left.
silly isn't it ... but many do not see through the illusion and actually believe the edwards/clinton/kennedy blow holes
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
By the way, think about it from the point of view of the oil companies. You have a product with a low per unit profit. You have a limited capacity to produce the product, because of limited facilities. The government declares that new facilities must meet higher standards in all areas. The government also declares the intention to increase the supply of a competing product, and in fact declares the intent to subsidize the production and distribution of the competing product. So, making among the smallest per unit profit margin of all products, do you invest BILLIONS to increase production capacity, when it will take decades to recover that investment, and the government is funding your competition?
Dead on. Huge investment for more refineries (which has even smaller tolerance for disruptions than oil supply does). Have to meet many federal, state, local, EPA regulations. Have to attain large tracks of land, and no one wants a refinery built next to them (NIMBY). Can take years to get everything lined up before you even break ground. Taking on such a big project and debt will negatively effect your stock prices, which makes the investors and shareholders unhappy. And you've got all this negative press and Congressional hearings which may go against you and cost you somehow; definite uncertainty.
As to American auto manufacturers. They are saddled with huge debts in the form of very generous (and often mismanaged) workers compensation packages through the 60's, 70's, and 80's. They build the SUV's and full sized trucks the public wants, then every time gas prices spike, they are stuck with huge inventories, and have to give price breaks and incentives to move the gas guzzlers. They have to compete for a dwindling market share that they are losing to non-U.S. manufacturers (who's vehicles have better fuel economy and reliability numbers every year).
Government and the Administration keeps saying they want the markets to lead in alternative energy and fuel economy and so forth, but what incentive is there for them to take the financial risk? They are about making money, not doing what's in the country's best interests. That's what the Government is supposed to do - take the long view and do what is best for the nation.
National over-dependence on foreign oil from unstable regions around the world is a potential serious threat to National Security and economic collapse due to serious disruptions. The risk of future resource wars is a possibility. Free markets are not going to invest in changing it, its too big with too much risk. This is the place of governments, developed on past models like the NACA, Manhattan Project, Apollo Program, the Interstate Highway System, the TVA.
Governments are not real efficient in these matters, and the U.S. Government may no longer be effective enough to pull them off anyways in modern times, but this is a role for government.
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gas rationing, it worked in WW2, it will work now.
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Originally posted by john9001
gas rationing, it worked in WW2, it will work now.
Political suicide. Ranks right up there with the draft.
There was a war on that most people took seriously. Not only was there a draft, but there were long lines at recruiting stations. Coastal cities had enforced blackout at night. There was rationing and shortages. There were collections for scrap metal and rubber. Many families took to growing their own gardens to supplement their food supply. And a higher percentage of the population back then bothered to vote.
Do you see anything to indicate the general population of the United States in 2007 would be prepared to do anything along those lines? Make any sacrifices? The same people buying Super-Sized SUV's? Who don't register or vote in elections?
Very different times.
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tedrbr, you don't ask the people , you just do it, send them the ration books.
but, you are right, non of our politicians have the courage to do what needs to be done, instead we will hear about "alternate energy programs" for the next (insert number) years.
term limits
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Originally posted by john9001
gas rationing, it worked in WW2, it will work now.
Cripes a'mighty.... you people are so overeacting to the price of gasoline. What are you going to do when it hits $5/gallon and higher? Not drive is what.
You want to see people find an alternative source of energy, raise gas to $8/gallon. Then the new source will come a running really fast.
Lastly, why not ask the fed and state governments to lay off their rediculous tax on gasoline. That alone would amount to a $.70 cent/gallon savings in most places.
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Originally posted by Sabre
JFK showed us that we can accomplish monumental things if we make it a matter of national pride and security. He got up in front of the nation and, despite the openly expressed doubts about its feasibility said, we will make the goal of this nation that within 10 years we will send men to the moon and return them safely (paraphrase). I want to hear something like this from even one presidential candidate.
Elimination of dependence on foreign energy through the above multi-faceted plan would be the single most important thing we could do for national security, the economy, and the environment. Then we could tell the Middle East and Venezuela to go pound sand.
The best thing that JFK ever did was not dodging the bullets.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Cripes a'mighty.... you people are so overeacting to the price of gasoline. What are you going to do when it hits $5/gallon and higher? Not drive is what.
You want to see people find an alternative source of energy, raise gas to $8/gallon. Then the new source will come a running really fast.
Lastly, why not ask the fed and state governments to lay off their rediculous tax on gasoline. That alone would amount to a $.70 cent/gallon savings in most places.
Problems here are that gas at $5 to $8 a gallon in a relatively short period of time results in economic chaos across the country. Inflation across the board. Lay offs and unemployment across whole industries like Restaurants, Tourism, Transportation, Airlines. At some point, the economy cannot absorb the increase and you get a runaway train for an economy. If the price of oil continues to increase at a much slower pace, the economy can adjust.
Also, for the Government to cut the gas tax would mean a huge net lose of funds; either the Government ends up borrowing huge amounts of money, or many programs end up getting cut. And they'd rather really just keep the money (and point at the profits the oil companies makes instead of their larger tax collections).
In the end, it still ends up as political suicide on the part of the politician. "Gentlemen! We've gotta save our phoney-baloney jobs!"
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tedrbr, you don't ask the people , you just do it, send them the ration books.
Umm, no you don't.
Want to remove the dependence of Foreign Oil? Drill Domestic. Do you people realize that China drills in the Gulf but due to our environmental friends WE Can't? The definition of Stupid keeps expanding.
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If gas keeps going up in the US, it'll be almost as expensive as bottled water.
What a disgraceful thing to say, lazysailor.
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Originally posted by ROC
Surely we don't all agree.
You guys won't like socialism, you won't like it one darn bit, but just keep begging for it, you're making headway.
Fuel is Power. Many of you are allowing the debate to go right over your heads. Gas is Cheap, heck a bottled water and can of soda cost more, where's the outrage there? The "leaders" are fueling your fight over fuel prices so you are distracted over the real fight, and that's the Freedom to do as you please. This is America, and Industrial Nation, and we travel, we build, and we grow. We need Fuel to do this, and the Only way to stop the nation is to cut off our fuel. They cannot do it militarily, so they will twist the debate and cause a bunch of week kneed people to cry over the cost of fuel and YOU'LL do it for them. Restricting, Rationing, Penalizing.
There is going to come a time where those of us that Do produce are going to get sick and tired of the stupidity, and then there's going to be a real problem. Imagine the backlash when a bunch of meat eating, gun toting, SUV driving Red Blooded Americans have their fill of unarmed vegan prius driving nannies.
For the moment, to each his own, drive,eat what you want. You're starting to annoy us though, just so you know. The clear difference is some of us don't care what you do, just don't tell me what to do. Some of you are crossing the line, tread lightly.
hehe, I had this same conversation with my mom in law after she was complaining about gas, Man did that make for an exciting mothers day lmao Mom's mouth gaping, eyes wide with horror. Nephews going YA YA YA :rofl
ROC
The closet commies aren't going to stop now... They've made tremendous progress turning our kids into good little pacifist weenies in their socialist indoctrination centers... (public schools)....So when the time comes to settle the score...... I'll be out there with ya, rifle in hand....
OG.... 20yrs USMC, Always faithful is not just a slogan to ME!!!!
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Originally posted by Rolex
If gas keeps going up in the US, it'll be almost as expensive as bottled water.
What a disgraceful thing to say, lazysailor.
Hey. If you can't stand the heat...
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like the price at the pumps reflects the true cost of a gallon of gas.
maybe it's time to factor in all they other hidden costs. like the military budget to secure resources, the cost of 9/11, the long tern costs of carrying for disable vets, not to mention that trillion dollar bar tab the neo-clowns ran up in their attempts to pirate iraqi oil reserves.
sheesh...you guys probably pay more that anyone else when it comes down to it.
besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?
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besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?
Please expand. I'm not that familiar with any oil angle in the whole Dulles/Bush/Nazis thing.
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Wow. Repo man references.
Pretty cool.
Silly thread but cool avatar Charon.
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The life of a repo man avatar is always intense :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Torque
like the price at the pumps reflects the true cost of a gallon of gas.
maybe it's time to factor in all they other hidden costs. like the military budget to secure resources, the cost of 9/11, the long tern costs of carrying for disable vets, not to mention that trillion dollar bar tab the neo-clowns ran up in their attempts to pirate iraqi oil reserves.
sheesh...you guys probably pay more that anyone else when it comes down to it.
besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?
:noid :noid :noid
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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The problem is that the oil companies are manipulating the market through
selective refinery 'maintenance shutdowns'. On top of the below article I
was watching CNBC and a gasoline trader said anybody who watches the market
realizes that supply has been manipulated to keep prices up.
Gas prices reflect refinery gouging
By: CHARLES LANGLEY - for the North County Times
Big Oil's earnings statements read more like a confession than a profit
report.
As North County's gas prices edge toward $3.50 a gallon, consumers should
know that gasoline now costs 11 cents more than it did last year when oil
was selling for $11 more per barrel. For example, on Thursday, the North
County Times reported that the average price of gasoline was $3.41 a gallon.
Meanwhile, the price of oil was $63 a barrel. On the same day last year, the
price of oil was $74 a barrel, and gasoline cost just $3.30 a gallon
(source: U.S. Department of Energy).
Something is terribly wrong when oil prices drop and the cost of gas goes
up. Big Oil says it is all about "supply and demand," but the ugly truth is
that North County residents are getting gouged deeply. Here's why: An $11
decrease in the cost of oil should mean a price cut of 26 cents from last
year's price of $3.30 a gallon. The industry says it "struggles" to keep up
with demand for gasoline, but according to the California State Board of
Equalization, gasoline demand in the last half of 2006 was 1 percent lower
even though there are more drivers on the road. While the report does show a
1 percent bump in gasoline consumption during January 2007, the cost of
gasoline in North County averaged $2.53 a gallon ---- almost a dollar less
than it does now.
What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits
centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream,"
which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average
profit of about a nickel a gallon.
Last week, Big Oil's first-quarter profit reports came rolling in with more
bad news for consumers. On April 26, Exxon/Mobil reported that even though
it produced less product than last year, it earned profits of 10 percent on
unusually high refinery margins (source: MarketWatch) and that the margins
were so high that the company "overcame lower crude oil and natural gas
prices" (source: Associated Press).
The following day, April 27, Chevron joined the obscene profit bandwagon by
announcing that it earned first-quarter profits of 18 percent, much of it on
increased refining margins, even though the company produced less gasoline
than last year (source: Associated Press, International Herald-Tribune).
Meanwhile, Valero announced that it made the highest first-quarter profits
in the company's history. Valero Chairman Bill Klesse said longer downtimes
for planned refinery maintenance helped create the shortages that reaped
record-shattering profits (source: San Antonio Business Journal). And on
Thursday, Shell announced that despite "unusually low seasonal gas demand,"
that "better refining margins, particularly in the U.S. West Coast," drove
profits sharply higher (source: MarketWatch.)
Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.
Exxon didn't "overcome" low oil prices, as the reports suggest. It gouged
its way to higher profits due to an almost complete lack of competition at
the refinery level. And so did Chevron, Shell and Valero. They did it by
restricting supply, panicking the markets, and intentionally underproducing
gasoline.
Charles Langley is a gasoline analyst for UCAN, the San Diego-based Utility
Consumers' Action Network. He also collects gas-price data for the North
County Times. He edited UCAN's free 32-page guide, the "Guzzler Buster: 127
Secrets to Squeezing More Miles From Each Gallon." UCAN's "Guzzler Buster"
is available free of charge to San Diego County residents who visit the UCAN
Web site at http://www.ucan.org.
-
More evidence from the same guy.
One good flare-up at a major California refinery is worth an extra dime of
profit per gallon at the wholesale level, and the refineries know it. This
spring, a host of highly questionable refinery shutdowns helped drive our
gas prices to the highest they've ever been in April. Shell, for example,
claimed that on Sunday, March 3, a raccoon singlehandedly shut down its
massive Wilmington, California refinery after tripping a power line that
disrupted the supply for ten seconds. Meanwhile, at almost exactly the same
time, an opussum also managed to shut off power to Exxon/Mobil's Torrance
refinery (source: Reuters).
The story does not mention if these critters were working as a team causing
problems within hours of each other. But needless to say, as excuses go,
both of these are right up there with "The dog ate my oil well." Thanks to
both of those SNAFUS, the price of San Diego gas prices surged by 8¢ in less
than 36 hours and by 25¢ in the following four days.
-
I just found out yesterday that we IMPORT gasoline, as there are times when refinery capacity simply isn't enough, like in the spring during the switch-over to all the odd-type fuels that various states require (haven't built one in 3 decades +..seems reasonable) The guy said it takes about 5-7 years to get the refinery online, partly due to the frightful EPA/red tape stuff, and a total of TWENTY years to break even..... what would be the motivation for a company to ever build one?
-
I was watching CNBC and a gasoline trader said anybody who watches the market realizes that supply has been manipulated to keep prices up.
Traders have been under serious investigations by congress and other groups relative to the role thy play in deciding crude oil and gasoline prices, particularly in volatility situations. It was a trader after Katrina who was quoted saying: "I can take the rest of the year off..." HARDLY an impartial source and a group that likes the attention focused elsewhere.
Something is terribly wrong when oil prices drop and the cost of gas goes up. Big Oil says it is all about "supply and demand," but the ugly truth is
that North County residents are getting gouged deeply. Here's why: An $11
decrease in the cost of oil should mean a price cut of 26 cents from last
year's price of $3.30 a gallon. The industry says it "struggles" to keep up
with demand for gasoline, but according to the California State Board of
Equalization, gasoline demand in the last half of 2006 was 1 percent lower
even though there are more drivers on the road. While the report does show a 1 percent bump in gasoline consumption during January 2007, the cost of
gasoline in North County averaged $2.53 a gallon ---- almost a dollar less
than it does now.
This shows a total lack of understanding of the infrastructure, or at best an inability to use critical thought. or a willingness to spin to support a bias. He ignores the winter summer blend regulations and the fact that the while crude sets the core gasoline price, refining and distribution impact the price volatility (major swings in price). He does seem to connect that dot below, in isolation.
What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream," which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average profit of about a nickel a gallon.
LOL. The exact opposite. Retailer's aren't making out, that part is true, and while refiners are enjoying an average profit better than the very low 5 percent they enjoyed during much of the 1990s the impact on your gallon of gasoline is entirely comparable to the taxes portion INCLUDING both costs and profits (and far, far lower than the base crude cost).
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/eia1_2005primerM.html
Last week, Big Oil's first-quarter profit reports came rolling in with more bad news for consumers. On April 26, Exxon/Mobil reported that even though it produced less product than last year, it earned profits of 10 percent on unusually high refinery margins (source: MarketWatch) and that the margins were so high that the company "overcame lower crude oil and natural gas prices" (source: Associated Press). ...
The following day, April 27, Chevron joined the obscene profit bandwagon by
announcing that it earned first-quarter profits of 18 percent, much of it on
increased refining margins, even though the company produced less gasoline
than last year (source: Associated Press, International Herald-Tribune).
Meanwhile, Valero announced that it made the highest first-quarter profits
in the company's history. Valero Chairman Bill Klesse said longer downtimes
for planned refinery maintenance helped create the shortages that reaped
record-shattering profits (source: San Antonio Business Journal). And on
Thursday, Shell announced that despite "unusually low seasonal gas demand,"that "better refining margins, particularly in the U.S. West Coast," droveprofits sharply higher (source: MarketWatch.)
Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.
Thats funny, and very selective by a dedicated anti-petroleum advocate. As I've stated before, if it's your refinery that is down you don't make the money. For example:
Sunoco Chairman and Chief Executive Officer John Drosdick, in a note accompanying the report, blamed the weak 2006 fourth quarter on a combination of seasonal declines in gasoline margins and unseasonably warm weather in the eastern U.S., which put a damper on heating-oil demand.
Maintenance and unscheduled repair outages at the company's refineries also cut the volume of fuel available to the market by about 5 million barrels during the quarter, he said.
"Retail Marketing had a loss of $11 million in the fourth quarter as retail gasoline prices declined and squeezed margins significantly versus record third-quarter levels," Drosdick added. Sunoco posted a $25 million profit from the same business a year ago.
1. You have to switch over gasoline blends for the Clean Air act in much of the country in the spring - check
2. You have to perform maintenance at some point - check
3. Doing both costs the company money, so doing maintenance at the same time minimizes the impact on the company and it's customers - check
4. You have to let "winter" gasoline stockpiles run down and be replaced with "summer" gasoline by certain dates or the EPA gets testy - check
5. On-hand supplies will be low during the transition - check
6. Unfortunately, spring and summer driving season starts while supply is at it's lowest and refining is at about 100 percent capacity - check
7. ANYTHING that happens anywhere will trigger a panic/greed reaction at best among traders, and perhaps real problem either locally or nationally in supply - check
One good flare-up at a major California refinery is worth an extra dime of profit per gallon at the wholesale level, and the refineries know it. This
spring, a host of highly questionable refinery shutdowns helped drive our
gas prices to the highest they've ever been in April. Shell, for example,
claimed that on Sunday, March 3, a raccoon singlehandedly shut down its
massive Wilmington, California refinery after tripping a power line that
disrupted the supply for ten seconds. Meanwhile, at almost exactly the same
time, an opussum also managed to shut off power to Exxon/Mobil's Torrance
refinery (source: Reuters).
The story does not mention if these critters were working as a team causing
problems within hours of each other. But needless to say, as excuses go,
both of these are right up there with "The dog ate my oil well." Thanks to
both of those SNAFUS, the price of San Diego gas prices surged by 8¢ in less
than 36 hours and by 25¢ in the following four days.
The funny thing is, the FTC runs regular investigations of the industry. Politically motivated by individuals who could become president if their investigation generates fire to go with the smoke. So far, nothing UnAmerican, un free market or even unusual from a capitalism standpoint. **** happens.
And just who is this "expert" again?
Charles Langley is a gasoline analyst for UCAN, the San Diego-based Utility Consumers' Action Network.
The problem is, that pseudo-communists like this guy get a ready market for their ill informed economic screeds since gasoline is an emotional issue. After all, paying $100 to fill that hummer, bought after a decade of unnaturally low gasoline prices led to a Tail-fin revival, just has to be somebody else's fault. BTW, he makes about 100 percent of his personal profit by having such opinions.
Charon
-
The US has been having this argument every spring for a good 15 years, and every spring it's determined that an evil cabal is manipulating the price of gas, which is just a volatile commodity . I remember in 1990 the DAY Saddam rolled into Kuwait the price went up a dime-- but the larger picture is that just because they paid a lower price for the gas already in the ground, said gas STILL became instantly worth a LOT more when the world's largest oil reserve became threatened. Mebbe if the 60-cent-a-gallon tax was rescinded, the price would be more palatable.
The left in this country WANTS us to consume less gas, and raising the price would seem to be the ticket, (Thats their approach with cigarettes, via taxes) but the only downside is that the evil oil companies STILL get to make money...DAMN them!
-
AFAIK the US refineries are from stone age and there hasn't been any significant increase in the capacity since the 70's. Refined gas is transported to the USA even from Finland. I'm sure the end product costs more if there isn't sufficient capacity to produce it locally. There's enough oil, but not enough refineries.
-
AFAIK the US refineries are from stone age and there hasn't been any significant increase in the capacity since the 70's. Refined gas is transported to the USA even from Finland. I'm sure the end product costs more if there isn't sufficient capacity to produce it locally. There's enough oil, but not enough refineries.
nope. those were shut down in the 1980s-1990s. We process about 17.5 million barrels of crude oil each day with consumption near 21 million barrels a day. Imports make up the differential, but in a cost effective manner. Imports rise during events like Katrina where the price of gasoline leads to it flooding the market through natural makket pressures -- which tanks th higher prices fairly quickly.
The API statistics also showed that U.S. refineries and blenders produced record amounts of gasoline and distillate fuel oil in 2006 and refinery capacity expanded for the 10th straight year. Since 1996, U.S. refiners have expanded capacity by more than 2 million barrels per day, or 14 percent. The blending of ethanol into gasoline reached a new high of more than five billion gallons and production of new clean-burning ultra low-sulfur diesel fuel topped a record 2.6 million barrels per day by the fourth quarter.
We have basically added one medium sized refinery each year in extra capacity from our existing units. And, there is a reason for no rush to generate built-in overcapacity.
With many years of low returns on investment until recently, U.S. refiners are still faced with uncertainty over whether they will earn adequate returns on capacity expansion investments. Further inhibiting a rapid expansion in supply, tightening U.S. specifications relative to much of the rest of the world implies higher prices may be required to attract increasing import volumes - at least for the next few years. While both sources of supply (imports and capacity) will meet demand, it is not likely that we will see excess refining capacity such as that in the 1980s and early 1990s anytime in the near future.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/040714/twipprint.html
Charon
-
Originally posted by Silat
The problem is that the oil companies are manipulating the market through
selective refinery 'maintenance shutdowns'. On top of the below article I
was watching CNBC and a gasoline trader said anybody who watches the market
realizes that supply has been manipulated to keep prices up.
Gas prices reflect refinery gouging
By: CHARLES LANGLEY - for the North County Times
Big Oil's earnings statements read more like a confession than a profit
report.
As North County's gas prices edge toward $3.50 a gallon, consumers should
know that gasoline now costs 11 cents more than it did last year when oil
was selling for $11 more per barrel. For example, on Thursday, the North
County Times reported that the average price of gasoline was $3.41 a gallon.
Meanwhile, the price of oil was $63 a barrel. On the same day last year, the
price of oil was $74 a barrel, and gasoline cost just $3.30 a gallon
(source: U.S. Department of Energy).
Something is terribly wrong when oil prices drop and the cost of gas goes
up. Big Oil says it is all about "supply and demand," but the ugly truth is
that North County residents are getting gouged deeply. Here's why: An $11
decrease in the cost of oil should mean a price cut of 26 cents from last
year's price of $3.30 a gallon. The industry says it "struggles" to keep up
with demand for gasoline, but according to the California State Board of
Equalization, gasoline demand in the last half of 2006 was 1 percent lower
even though there are more drivers on the road. While the report does show a
1 percent bump in gasoline consumption during January 2007, the cost of
gasoline in North County averaged $2.53 a gallon ---- almost a dollar less
than it does now.
What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits
centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream,"
which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average
profit of about a nickel a gallon.
Last week, Big Oil's first-quarter profit reports came rolling in with more
bad news for consumers. On April 26, Exxon/Mobil reported that even though
it produced less product than last year, it earned profits of 10 percent on
unusually high refinery margins (source: MarketWatch) and that the margins
were so high that the company "overcame lower crude oil and natural gas
prices" (source: Associated Press).
The following day, April 27, Chevron joined the obscene profit bandwagon by
announcing that it earned first-quarter profits of 18 percent, much of it on
increased refining margins, even though the company produced less gasoline
than last year (source: Associated Press, International Herald-Tribune).
Meanwhile, Valero announced that it made the highest first-quarter profits
in the company's history. Valero Chairman Bill Klesse said longer downtimes
for planned refinery maintenance helped create the shortages that reaped
record-shattering profits (source: San Antonio Business Journal). And on
Thursday, Shell announced that despite "unusually low seasonal gas demand,"
that "better refining margins, particularly in the U.S. West Coast," drove
profits sharply higher (source: MarketWatch.)
Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.
Exxon didn't "overcome" low oil prices, as the reports suggest. It gouged
its way to higher profits due to an almost complete lack of competition at
the refinery level. And so did Chevron, Shell and Valero. They did it by
restricting supply, panicking the markets, and intentionally underproducing
gasoline.
Charles Langley is a gasoline analyst for UCAN, the San Diego-based Utility
Consumers' Action Network. He also collects gas-price data for the North
County Times. He edited UCAN's free 32-page guide, the "Guzzler Buster: 127
Secrets to Squeezing More Miles From Each Gallon." UCAN's "Guzzler Buster"
is available free of charge to San Diego County residents who visit the UCAN
Web site at http://www.ucan.org.
This is proof that you can prove anything when you throw numbers at stupid people.
-
yawn. Umm..."commodity"...."supply/demand"....never mind...it's Halliburton
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
This is proof that you can prove anything when you throw numbers at stupid people.
Its funny how your numbers are right but anyone elses are wrong. LOL. Who doesnt understand that the corps are out after bucks no matter what?
Republican mantra: Corps are good. Dont bother them. Let them work they will take care of you. LOL
-
Originally posted by Silat
Its funny how your numbers are right but anyone elses are wrong. LOL. Who doesnt understand that the corps are out after bucks no matter what?
Republican mantra: Corps are good. Dont bother them. Let them work they will take care of you. LOL
It's funny how there are 7-10 individual independent factors that affect the price of gas. Your author defines the price of gas based on a single factor.
This reality thing is painful, isn't it?
-
>> George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline
>>
>> Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop
>> Using
>> so much gas is to deport 11 to 20 million illegal immigrants! That would be
>> 11 to 20
>> million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.
>> Other perks.... alot less uninsured illegal, unlicensed drivers.
:aok
-
Here it is sales tax that is the big gouge..
The sales tax on a gallon of gas has tripled since gas was a buck twenty.
Every increase in the price of gas brings an increase in the sales tax portion.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Here it is sales tax that is the big gouge..
The sales tax on a gallon of gas has tripled since gas was a buck twenty.
Every increase in the price of gas brings an increase in the sales tax portion.
lazs
There ye go...ya'd think California liberals would be HAPPY about that--make price of gas ghastly high, will force people to use less, thus ending global warming, world hunger, AIDS, psoriasis, ..... but NOOOO...whereas taxing the @#$@#$ out of evil cigarettes is GOOd...taxing the %$%% out of evil gas is WROONNNGggg, as the evil oil companies aren't hurt at all. If ONLY there was a way....
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Here it is sales tax that is the big gouge..
The sales tax on a gallon of gas has tripled since gas was a buck twenty.
Every increase in the price of gas brings an increase in the sales tax portion.
lazs
Are you sure about that? I thought the tax on gas was flat and not determined by a percentage.
-
In Oregon we have no sales tax, but in Cali, you still pay (what is it now 7%?) sales tax on the pump price... including the 40 ro 50 cents tax on each gallon.
So you pay tax on the amount of tax you pay.
-
Isn't double taxation illegal?
-
most sales tax is collected based on sales prices that have some hidden tax within them...