Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: kestrel7e7 on May 23, 2007, 10:52:57 PM
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Freetrack, a free webcam head tracking program with 6 degrees of freedom, has been upgraded to support all TrackIR games (including Aces High II)!
Site has demo videos.
http://n.camil.chez-alice.fr/index.php
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That looks pretty cool. So any old web cam will work?? What about the LED setup etc?? Need more info.
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Same here, I'd like to get the head movement to add to my VR headset setup - seems like the sites scarce on assembly instructions.
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Now this looks interesting.
I need to buy a web-cam just for this.
I think the four LED connection is just a basic circuit with pre-resistor, powered by battery or DC power supply.
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This is awesome! It would be the perfect, low price, alternative to TrackIR! I just hope that any electronic noob like me can set it up! :p
Definitely need more info!!!!
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Ha ha, the resulting sales drop should teach "Naturalpoint" not to cheat their customers in the future.
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Let's hope it, Benny!
Btw, Kestrel.... junior member, only 1 post... are you the creator of Freetrack?
If so, we want more info!!! :)
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I do wonder why it's free, though.
Does anyone here have both TrackIR and a web camera? I would be interested in hearing how these two compare.
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Lol, why is Linux free? I don't think you should search for a "why", Benny... luckily not everyone is willing to do something only for money! :)
There are people who have TrackIR, here, and IIRC, Vulcan has the perfect system, the VR googles ZVision. Do a search, you'll find lots of threads.
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Linux is free because it's so ridiculously difficult to learn and use that no one would pay for it.
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:lol No, it's not that difficult to learn, especially the last distroes. And you know that wasn't what I meant. :)
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I'd like to see more info on this too!
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Linux is free because it's so ridiculously difficult to learn and use that no one would pay for it.
AH and IL2 are the ONLY reasons I have for install Windows. Ubuntu, Suse, Mandrake are more easy for intall and update what Windows. Lots of companys PAY for use Red Hat, Suse SLES, etc...
Ki 84 drivers like Gianlupo had Windows BadVista :D, 109s freaks Gentoo Linux.
Sorry for my english.
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Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
Ki 84 drivers like Gianlupo had Windows BadVista :D, 109s freaks Gentoo Linux.
Wrong, I have XP, not going to Vista.... and I have Ubuntu on a partition ;) Trying to become a Linuxgeek.
Now, will someone please, tell us what kind of webcam you need for Freetrack (resolution, fps), and where I can find a passive IR filter, or how to setup the leds???? I want to try it!! :D
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back on topic, it looks like this set-up is free and really works. Might not be a bad idea for us lower middle class folk :D
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When i played lock on and took a break from AH a guy i knew had it.
He wasnt very impressed with it.The environment had to be very dark for it to work properly and sometimes it would not work at all.
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Originally posted by Souless
When i played lock on and took a break from AH a guy i knew had it.
He wasnt very impressed with it.The environment had to be very dark for it to work properly and sometimes it would not work at all.
TrackIR or this kind of homebuild setup?
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Originally posted by Souless
When i played lock on and took a break from AH a guy i knew had it.
He wasnt very impressed with it.The environment had to be very dark for it to work properly and sometimes it would not work at all.
Ouch... and what about that other program, Freelook? Or was it the one your pal had, and not Freetrack?
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@lusche... I have trackir2 have had it for many years now it works great never a problem.
My friend had free look and free track
His biggest complaint was
1. the environment as listed above.
2. It would just stop working for unexplained reasons
3. He did suffer a frame rate hit
To be completley fair I have no idea what kind of system he had, if the problem was on his end or not.
Maybe they have improved it since then.
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thanks for clarification
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yep, thanks souless. I do hope they improved the program... it's so tempting that I think I'm gonna buy a webcam and try it as soon as I understand what kind of hardware is needed to run it.
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in the email he sent me he said it was 4 LEDs, 4 resistors and a battery pak for the headset, I think it was a 30 FPS webcam with the IR pass filter. The software is at the site. I asked for a diagram on how to set up the LEDs we'll see.
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Thanks fugitive. May you forward to me the mails, when you'll have everything? I'm PMing you my email. Thanks again. :)
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heheeh if he sends it :D
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You can get IR LED's at any radioshack, but where in the world can you find an inexpensive IR filter?
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Question for you TrackIR users. (not to go off topic).
How do you line your gun sites up when using Tracker? Is it hard to line up your sites? or do you just use the dot in the center of the screnn or mnouce pointer method?
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Originally posted by crockett
Question for you TrackIR users. (not to go off topic).
How do you line your gun sites up when using Tracker? Is it hard to line up your sites? or do you just use the dot in the center of the screnn or mnouce pointer method?
The gunsights are reflector gunsights and work just like the real ones in WW2 did. If you move your head, the dot on the gunsight will move too. You can simulate this very easy yourself: When in cockpit, just move your head position with the arrow keys. Your will see thedot moving realtively to your position.
EDIT: Some people do "freeze" their TIR when shooting by pressing the "look forward" view button on their hatswitch. I find this completely unnessecary and never disable TIR myself.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
heheeh if he sends it :D
Hi Fugitive. Thanks for forwarding the first mail you got. I tried to mail you back, but had some trouble with yahoo, I hope my last mail arrived.
Any new?
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Hi Fugitive. Thanks for forwarding the first mail you got. I tried to mail you back, but had some trouble with yahoo, I hope my last mail arrived.
Any new?
Didn't check mail today Gianlupo, so don't know about yours or any more info from him. On the other hand a couple of guys are working on it in the Harware forum HERE (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206656) Check it out!
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Thank you, Fugitive! :)
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Originally posted by crockett
Question for you TrackIR users. (not to go off topic).
How do you line your gun sites up when using Tracker? Is it hard to line up your sites? or do you just use the dot in the center of the screnn or mnouce pointer method?
Dunno bout the trackir guys, but with my headset I use the joystick deadzones (X/Y) to make sure theres a definitive area that when I'm looking forward zero's my view. IE If I look within 10 degrees of dead ahead the deadzone causes my view to snap to dead centre.
My only problem is the gunsight doesn't work well in 3D.
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Originally posted by crockett
Question for you TrackIR users. (not to go off topic).
How do you line your gun sites up when using Tracker? Is it hard to line up your sites? or do you just use the dot in the center of the screnn or mnouce pointer method?
With a reflector gun sight it doesn't matter where the dot is in the glass.
Also set just enough deadband with the tracir so looking forward is easy.
Bronk
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TrackIR vs Freetrack/Freelook/etc etc
[Or how to get a taste of what TrackIR is like, so that it will probably make you desire one even more!!!! Well that is what happened to me!!]
I have tried most of the alternatives to TrackIR,
The main problems are:
a) Framerate Hits: as these are software solutions, they require more CPU ticks to do their computations, from what I can tell, TrackIR seems to do alot of its processing on its own hardware chip. TrackIR framerate his is negligable (5% maybe) ... while the software versions are 20-60% frame hits.
b) Quality: TrackIR is basically a modified webcam, that appears to have the essential things it requires significantly boosted, and the stuff it doesnt need discarded (i.e. has very fast FPS, but only looks for IR-light, so discards images etc etc). When using a webcam, you have to tweak etc etc to get it to within paramaters that the software can comfortably work with.
* I ended up in a totally darkened room, with an IR-led on my hat, and if i moved too far it didnt respond or lost tracking. (i would call it a 65%-85% solution).
* With trackIR ... can use it in any light, at very good angles/distances ... I would say it is a 100-110% solution ... once you get used to it (especially doing a 6-look, which might take a few days) ... it becomes 2nd nature.
I sound like an advertisment for TrackIR, but CAUTION/BEWARE ANYONE trying these software alternatives ... you know what it is going to do ... once you get a feel for 6DO and head-panning ... you will desire the real TrackIR even more...lol
(Played with s/w and cam for 7 days ... then saved my pennies and bought a TrackIR ... took me 3-4 weeks of no-takeaway etc and didnt even have to increase my mortgage!!!..lol)
Finn
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You can also program a CH stick to center the TrackIR when you pull the trigger. You can do wonderful things with the CH Control Manager.
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I saw this and decided to try and make one. http://www.theparticle.com/hardware/irqcam/ I soldered an ir led onto the circuit board and stuck it out the front of the camera. I placed a reflective strip on a hat and use a program I got at freelook.org to see the strip. You then use the mouse view setup. You must run freelook in the background as you play AHII.I have some success but haven't fine tuned it as yet. The webcam came from ebay for about 20 buck and the leds are 1.79 from radio shack. You will have to place a resistor in series with the led and there is a calculator at http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz. The 5 volts comes from the usb connection and can be tapped into inside the camera. Good luck!
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Swoose, your message should be posted even in this thread:
Freelook and making a headset for it (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206656)
And thanks for sharing! :)
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The link to the calculator will not work for some reason but the address is correct. I'll try again. http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz. Maybe this one will work.
Swoose
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You just have to the delete the dot in the end of the address.
It's http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz
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Thanks. It's always the little things that get you.:aok
Swoose
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Thank you for posting that stuff! :)
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Cachya is another option. It is a webcam solution just like cam2pan but support 6DOF. To me, it works great. I couldn't believe it is software based. And setup is easy. You print a card and stick on your hat, that's it! It is not free but pretty cheap. Spend $15 for 6DOF makes every sense to me.
Aces High II can make use of 5DOF of it. Smooth and fast ... . I mean it worth the money even for Aces High alone!
Here is the link: http://www.cachya.com
Good Luck.
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:aok
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a) Framerate Hits: as these are software solutions, they require more CPU ticks to do their computations, from what I can tell, TrackIR seems to do alot of its processing on its own hardware chip. TrackIR framerate his is negligable (5% maybe) ... while the software versions are 20-60% frame hits.
This is not an issue with dual-core cpus, but even on a single core cpu most Freetrack users report little noticeable reduction in in-game frame rate.
b) Quality: TrackIR is basically a modified webcam, that appears to have the essential things it requires significantly boosted, and the stuff it doesnt need discarded (i.e. has very fast FPS, but only looks for IR-light, so discards images etc etc). When using a webcam, you have to tweak etc etc to get it to within paramaters that the software can comfortably work with.
* I ended up in a totally darkened room, with an IR-led on my hat, and if i moved too far it didnt respond or lost tracking. (i would call it a 65%-85% solution).
* With trackIR ... can use it in any light, at very good angles/distances ... I would say it is a 100-110% solution ... once you get used to it (especially doing a 6-look, which might take a few days) ... it becomes 2nd nature.
Freetrack works pefectly in a well lit room, the webcam 'tweaking' only involves setting the exposure, the software is more customisable than TrackIR and is constantly being improved.
Freetrack is so good you would be crazy to waste your money on a glorified webcam, oops, I mean TrackIR.
Freetrack v2.0 is out btw.
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Originally posted by wooly15
You can get IR LED's at any radioshack, but where in the world can you find an inexpensive IR filter?
mmmm... inexpensve IR filters... you guys can find stuff like than on eBay.
This one is $5
http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-CAMCORDER-IR-PASS-THROUGH-FILTER_W0QQitemZ150150624060QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150150624060
TIGERESS
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You can get IR LED's at any radioshack, but where in the world can you find an inexpensive IR filter?
mmmm... inexpensve IR filters... you guys can find stuff like than on eBay. This one is $5
lol, just use developed film negatives... that's what all Freetrack users use. Everybody is bound to have some lying around somewhere, from the days before you got your shiny new digital camera. If you don't have a fully exposed piece you can use several layers of unexposed offcuts, ideally you shouldn't be able to see through it with the naked eye.
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Originally posted by wooly15
You can get IR LED's at any radioshack, but where in the world can you find an inexpensive IR filter?
memory fails me atm, but ill get in contact with him, my friend has soemthing everyone has round the house as an IR filter, argh its like on the tip of my tongue! was somthing like blank photo film
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I made one and it works good. It took about 5 bucks worth of parts, and old stuff I had laying around. I don't have IR Track, so I can't compare.
It takes some experimenting, so if your not good at building things, you may not have good results. I bought a bag of assorted LEDs from Radio Shack (2 bucks I think). I had resistors and wire around the house. I used 4 yellow LEDs for the head set, and a 9 volt to power it.
For the frame, I thought the coat hanger was a bit cheezey looking, so I went to the hobby store and got a pack of aluminum tubing and a set of tube benders (tight wound springs that fit tightly over the tube). I made the frame per the instructions, but ran the wires in the tubes. Now I have a cheezey looking tube frame :) I soldered up everthing connected the battery and it lit up fine.
I used an old web cam that was laying around gathering dust. For an IR filter, I used an exposed end of a developed 35mm film negative. Start up the Free Track software and it works. It takes a bit of tweeking of the settings to get the right feel. No problems with back light. Just adjust the setting so it only sees the LEDs.
In AH, just start up Free Track, minimize it. Start AH, and it works.
Gunner
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Oh, if you want to just give it a try, you can get 2 axis with one light. I used a clip on LED flashlight and cliped it to the bill of my hat.
Gunner
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Here is a quick picture. The hat with 4 LED head set on the monitor. The Web Cam and filter in front of the hat. On the left (on the PC) is the LED light that worked for the single LED test.
(http://webpages.charter.net/davegun/Pics/FT.jpg)
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Here is a quick picture. The hat with 4 LED head set on the monitor.
Nice work.
Some of the led model constructions have been quite funny, like one made out of wood...
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Gunner, what system do you have? (processor, RAM, videocard, etc.) Have you got any problem with framerate? Does the view wobble when you're not moving your head? Is there any significant delay between head movement and view movement?
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Does the view wobble when you're not moving your head? Is there any significant delay between head movement and view movement?
Freetrack can give you a rock solid view when your head is stationary and be responsive at the same time, however there is always a compromise between the two. To better deal with this compromise the next version will have dynamic smoothing which increases the floating deadzone when your head is stable and reduces it when moving.
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kestrel7e7 - Are u able to be honest about your association with this product?
If you are involved with this venture, perhaps you can arrange a 'discount' for Aces High folk? ... one way to get your sales up, as I am sure some might be interested.
Also ... I was telling you of my experience previously, and ... and it impacted on framerates by quite a large % ... 20-60% .. depending on what was going on ... and it WAS a dual core chip.
Any Regular AH pilots who use this/similar products ... what is your experience with other software (pros/cons for them) ... and have u tried TrackIR (say at a friend's, or some sort of store/convention demo)?
I have tried at least 3 different software/webcam ones, and the main difference between them that I noted was that most have only 3DOF, while at least 1 of em have implemented 6DOF. (in the interest of being fair ... i wont score them...lol)
Finn
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Originally posted by Finn
kestrel7e7 - Are u able to be honest about your association with this product?
If you are involved with this venture, perhaps you can arrange a 'discount' for Aces High folk? ... one way to get your sales up, as I am sure some might be interested.
...
Finn
Finn, it's free... can't get more of a discount than that :)
Gunner
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Originally posted by Finn
If you are involved with this venture, perhaps you can arrange a 'discount' for Aces High folk? ... one way to get your sales up, as I am sure some might be interested.
.... it's free, hence the name.
Also ... I was telling you of my experience previously, and ... and it impacted on framerates by quite a large % ... 20-60% .. depending on what was going on ... and it WAS a dual core chip.
To be blunt, you're doing something wrong. You can't do a performance test unless you have a visible light filter and the correct threshold so that ONLY the tracking points are visible. You also have to minimize to tray, if performance is still not good enough you can reduce the video stream resolution. If your cpu usage is still high then you must have some sort of obscure webcam that likes doing wait loops for no particular reason and you should probably ditch it. :P
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Would the setup work with a headset instead of the frame as shown in the manual? Maybe mount the LEDs on each earpiece and one on top, 4th on the mic boom?
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FREE!! .. cannot complain about that!!!
I think perhaps my frames thing may have been due to not having an adequate normal light filter.
I am not saying that these things are useless ... just that they dont work like advertised without a lot of 'patience', 'modding' and 'trial n error'.
In the end I got a TrackIR that I just plug in and it works (no messing about needed) .... but on my second pc (that family and friends use) I have retained a web-cam and homemade IR setup. (The usualy comment from friends/family is - 'Err ... so in order to play this game .. u want me to wear this strange hat?? Are u serious or joking??... hahaha')
PS .... but in what way ARE you associated with Freetrack?
I think that having dodged this simple question about 3 times (in this post alone) ... you are answering yes by default ...lol.
Seeing as how it is free it is a non-issue, but if you are involved then it would be to your (and Aces High players) benefit .... as it gives good communication between the dev's and the users. (which has been a winning formula for aces high over the years!!!!)
One problem I found with my homemade IR LED's was that when my head was turned/tilted a fair bit, the software tended to not see enuff IR image to keep tracking, but again this may be a filter issue, as with a better filter and the sensitivity turned up it may track better.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Gunner, what system do you have? (processor, RAM, videocard, etc.) Have you got any problem with framerate? Does the view wobble when you're not moving your head? Is there any significant delay between head movement and view movement?
AMD 64 3200+
ASUS A8N-E
2G RAM
Radeon X800 GTO
TM Cougar U2 NXT (joystick controlers)
I see no change in frame rate. I have played with the setting curves to give it a good feel. If you see a wobble when not moving your head, you can add a little floating deadband. There is a small delay when moving your head fast.
I have read on the Free Track web page that my web cam is not the best but it works. I may pick up a newer cheap cam next time I go shopping :)
The latest thing I did is mapped a pause button on my joystick views. This way I can quickly shut it off and use the standard views. Sometimes in the heat of battle, my brain reverts to the 10+ years of using my thumb to look around :)
Gunner
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
AMD 64 3200+
ASUS A8N-E
2G RAM
Radeon X800 GTO
TM Cougar U2 NXT (joystick controlers)
I see no change in frame rate. I have played with the setting curves to give it a good feel. If you see a wobble when not moving your head, you can add a little floating deadband. There is a small delay when moving your head fast.
I have read on the Free Track web page that my web cam is not the best but it works. I may pick up a newer cheap cam next time I go shopping :)
Thanks for the answers, Kestrel and Gunner. Btw, what webcam do you have, Gunner? My only trouble, now, is that I'm totally unable of building the headset... I think I'll ask someone to do it for me (there's a finn guy that sells it, on Freetrack forum)... I'm eager to try it... even though, like Finn, I hate when I have to spend too much time configuring hardware/software... so lazy!! :D
The latest thing I did is mapped a pause button on my joystick views. This way I can quickly shut it off and use the standard views. Sometimes in the heat of battle, my brain reverts to the 10+ years of using my thumb to look around :)
Gunner
Eheheheh, that's my fear, I'm so used to hat switch then maybe I'll end up deeply hating the track system for the first days!
Oh, btw, Finn....
Originally posted by Finn
PS .... but in what way ARE you associated with Freetrack?
Not difficult to figure it out... you just had to check Freetrack forum.... he's one of the programmer! ;)
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Originally posted by SIM
Would the setup work with a headset instead of the frame as shown in the manual? Maybe mount the LEDs on each earpiece and one on top, 4th on the mic boom?
If you go to the site mentioned and then click the link to the new site they have an explination of using 3 LEDs on a headset for 6DOF.
Still could use some more documentation.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Thanks for the answers, Kestrel and Gunner. Btw, what webcam do you have, Gunner? My only trouble, now, is that I'm totally unable of building the headset... I think I'll ask someone to do it for me (there's a finn guy that sells it, on Freetrack forum)... I'm eager to try it... even though, like Finn, I hate when I have to spend too much time configuring hardware/software... so lazy!! :D]
Logetech Quickcam express.
Eheheheh, that's my fear, I'm so used to hat switch then maybe I'll end up deeply hating the track system for the first days!
There are a few times I prefer to pause the free cam. Takeoff, I prefer to have a pre-set forward view. In AH, if you use the hat to check 6, you will be looking at the head rest. You can move side to side to see around both sides, but when it is paused, it uses my saved views. I find this gives the best of both view systems.
Gunner
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Thank you, Gunner. :)
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I've tried it out works fine.. Need a decent webcam though or you'll get studders. :aok
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Originally posted by Avaro
I've tried it out works fine.. Need a decent webcam though or you'll get studders. :aok
The next version's interpolation will work better, I've got it working smoothly on the cheapest POS Logitech I could find...
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Originally posted by kestrel7e7
The next version's interpolation will work better, I've got it working smoothly on the cheapest POS Logitech I could find...
Good news... I have the POS :) Thanks for the great program, keep of the good work!!
Gunner
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Just built my first prototype out of sticky tape, coathangers and thread.
Wow.
Works like a charm.
Of note, if you do go for the SFH485P 80 degree IR LEDs, they're often quoted with 3v forward voltage .... not so. Like the majority they only drop 1.5v. (melted a resistor due to that :) ).
Also could not for the life of me get any kind IR filter from photograpic film (exposed and non exposed developed film) but breaking open a floppy disk solved that problem.
Thank you for this kestrel7e7, it's awsome.
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Aces High II Freetrack v2.0 6dof demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pkyZVIkKcg
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Someone needs to make the LED thingy for those of us who are lazy/bad with a soldering iron :D
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You just have to ask! :D
A thread in Freetrack website forum (http://freetrack.online.fr/forum/index.php?showtopic=45)
The guy makes "headware" and sells them for 19 Euros (I asked for the 4 led array), shipping included (at least for Italy)... I've asked a friend of mine to help me build the "headware", but, if we won't be able to do it, I'm gonna buy it from this Finnish. Send him a mail, I think he ships in US, too, maybe at slightly higher price.
I wonder if the Warlock in that thread is our Warlock.... :)
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A new version of Freetrack, v2.1, has been released! Smoother, faster, better, stronger! Comes with a demonstration video so you can see it in action if you don't have a webcam or point model.
http://www.free-track.org
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Outstanding release - seems much smoother.
Can't thank you guys enough for the effort put in for this outstanding freeware.
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what web cam would you recommend?
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there is a list of them in the forum at the site and how people like the different ones