Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: kennyhayes on May 28, 2007, 08:28:46 PM
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I wish that you could have more than 1 gunner in a bomber becase if 2 fighters attack you at the same time from differant dirrections you would be able to take care of one of them and then get shoot down by the other and maybe this option could only be avalible with 1 plane so it would not be so confusing. with formation turned off.
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sorry,we dont need everyone flying death-star bombers.
(http://homepage.mac.com/omegaosx/.Pictures/dead_thread.jpg)
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Originally posted by kennyhayes
I wish that you could have more than 1 gunner in a bomber becase if 2 fighters attack you at the same time from differant dirrections you would be able to take care of one of them and then get shoot down by the other and maybe this option could only be avalible with 1 plane so it would not be so confusing. with formation turned off.
most the time a gunner cant hit is target any way so how would it help?
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I do not think that a second or third or whatever number gunner be allowed, all it would do is encourage the use of bombers as ackstars like they were in warbirds.
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(http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif)
Stop beating the dead horse! It's been asked a lot of times, and, as DaddyAck said, it would never happen because bombers could be turned into mobile antiaircraft platforms.
Think about supporting good threads, like the one in my signature! :D ;) :p
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
(http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif)
Stop beating the dead horse! It's been asked a lot of times, and, as DaddyAck said, it would never happen because bombers could be turned into mobile antiaircraft platforms.
Think about supporting good threads, like the one in my signature! :D ;) :p
I love that picture, it so much captures what I was thinkin. :rofl
and yes, I agree about your flaps damage model post.
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Thank you! :) That picture is the more funny I found goggling "beat a dead horse" ;)
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I'd much rather a co-pilot option in some bombers, rather than more gunners. As for the flying ackstar, I think it would be funny.
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Originally posted by kennyhayes
I wish that you could have more than 1 gunner in a bomber becase if 2 fighters attack you at the same time from differant dirrections you would be able to take care of one of them and then get shoot down by the other and maybe this option could only be avalible with 1 plane so it would not be so confusing. with formation turned off.
Too much history with Deathstars and AckStars from other WWII combat flight games. It will never happen.
My personal experience is to do my own gunning. Most gunners you can get are no good at the job. Waste ammo, shoot at friendlies, shoot at everything out to 5K distance, can't hit targets, and leave without telling you.
A good gunner should be able to make use of gun positions and external view to even deal with 2 planes. Two or more not-so-good gunners not going to be that much help anyways.
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WOW you don't get it NVM
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Oh, we get it, trust us. We just don't think you know this has been rehashed since before this game was open to the public!
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LMFAO GIN AND WES.
You guys are freaking hilarious. lmfao.:rofl :rofl
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No need for more than one gunner. I mean who wants a bunch of people who have been trained by 999 and Zazen to become the ultimate deathstar in one plane.:cool:
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OPTION: 1
The simple solution is to not allow the 'joining' of a bomber by more than one gunner below a certain altitude.
I would suggest 12.5 -> 15 thousand as the 'floor' for multiple manned bombers.
That way, multiple gunners could be incorporated in high altitude strategic precision bombing...just like it WAS...
And below that 'certain' altitude the gunners are automatically sent to tower....with the exception of the primary auxiliary gunner...that joined the mission on takeoff and climb out.
Modeled like this, you would not get the short hop death star missions as were so common in AW....where we would up a Mitch fully gunned and tear the guts out a furball...
Further, the altitude join limitation would force the fighters to team up in groups of 2-4 or more if their base was being bombed from altitude...for they would know that just like the real 17's there would probably be a set of eager hands aloft twitching .50 cal triggers.
As it is now, a single pilot fending off an attack from 3 or more bogeys is a hair raising adventure, and one not often survived.
Further, if a gun is shot out and your in it...you should be dead. If you pilot lands gear up and your in the belly, you should be dead or incapacitated like a pilot wound...left with the decision to either bail out over enemy territory or weather the flight and take your chances of bleeding out.
The bombardiers position should be man-able by the primary auxiliary gunner.
When a bomber group is manned by more than one gunner, the auto-gun functionality can be limited or or eliminated depending on the number of gunners that have joined/returned to tower
OPTION 2:
Allow up to 3 gunners as an option that can man the 3 planes of the formation. Under this scenario the pilot cannot gun and is responsible for flying/navigating/bombing.
The gunners cannot jump from plane to plane, only from gun to gun. The auto gun functionality is not formation wide, and only specific to each plane and its gunner.
If a gun is shot out with a gunner in it, that plane has lost all functionality to gun, or it could return to a limited or unlimited auto-gun functionality.
ALTERNATES:
Do not allow multiple manned formations from forward bases. Limit this functionality to only one base...the high altitude base near HQ.
Include these options in the Perk structure to curtail/limit abuse.
Disable gun functionality for multiple gunner formations below a certain altitude.
CONCLUSION:
There are creative and technical solutions [beyond the present solution] to eliminate the plague/fun of death stars and the unrealistic problem they create in a game that endeavors to simulate to an extent WW2 air combat.
The original models of AW and WB that allowed deathstars were slanted to much in favor of the gunners/bombers.
The present model is slanted to far in favor of the fighter/interceptor.
I am sure the team at HTC, with an open discussion and think tank on this forum, can create a more median compromise that more closely models the role of the manned bomber in WW2 air combat.
With all the talent at HTC and on this board...are we really done with this ongoing request/issue ?
ONE LAST THING:
If a mission is created using strat bombers, the designation of a "lead' formation or flight should be allowed. The lead plane in the lead flight should have a navigators position.
The 'lead' navigator can update the way point map in flight, and assign engineer parameters on the fly to each flight/formation. He would be able to update or change primary/secondary targets and assign targets to each formation in the flight.
The navigators job could include dispersing a group on approach to target for optimal bomb tracks for sub target sets, rendezvous points and updated egress paths.
The 'lead' navigator in essence would be group commander...in control of all the flights/formations
Flight planning detail such as this should also be limited to the high alt field near HQ, where one has to overfly 4-7 sectors before encountering the enemy.
And finally...being able to assign more than one instance of a strat bomber in mission planning would be icing on the cake.
This would in effect create a true group style formation where 'units' or 'squads' of bombers, comprised of up to 6 flights each could accompany one another.
Different loadouts could be assigned to the individual instances. One squad could load for hard targets, the other soft.
Thats a wish list thing....just dreaming...
http://www.303rdbg.com/sop-formation.html (http://www.303rdbg.com/sop-formation.html)
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no one wants the 3 hour flights from HQ to the lines tho.
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Originally posted by CAF001
no one wants the 3 hour flights from HQ to the lines tho.
To an extent your right but not entirely, and thus you make my point. The mere fact that additional time is required would drastically eliminate the abuse of the death star.
FYI:
Leaving a 5k base, it takes two sectors to pass through 20k feet. With an on-average TAS of about 165, thats 15-20 minutes to 'altitude'.
Going FL at 20-22 yields a TAS of around 265, which translates into less than 10 minutes a sector.
So, to go 4-7 sectors it runs about 35-60 minutes or so.
I typically set my auto-climb speed to 150-170 [default is 135 in a B17], which drastically cuts down the time. Normally I try to select a speed that will place me at 20k & climbing when I cross the line depending on the distance needed.
Your point is well taken, but the data is incorrect.
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The current implantation has nothing to do with not wanting death stars.
It has much more to do with usability and survivability.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
The current implantation has nothing to do with not wanting death stars.
It has much more to do with usability and survivability.
HiTech
Interesting....
Could you explain Usability and Survivability?
I heard that multiple gunners used to cause warping and lagging? Is that the issue with usability? If so, why does that happen?
I would imagine that keeping tabs on the location of multiple players within the greater space and trying to maintain there close proximity is very difficult.
Perhaps an 'object' or container that the players reside in could solve that. In such a case, the location of the player is relative to his container, and the container is the only thing that is geographically mapped to the arena. In effect by containerizing the crew within a shell would allow the same relative granularity as the greater arena, and player position control becomes relative to the container and other players within it. Just a thought.
As to survivability does that mean that the 'model' is either/or?
If that was the case then I can see your point. If the model had two modes however then the option could be elective...though I imagine thats a whole bunch of new code...and I understand that your resources are limited and priorities must be set.
I think those that remember the multiple gunner bombers with fondness do so not for the 'ackstar' aspects, but the special camaraderie that was provided with that model.
Many of those long range missions were boring and uneventful, leading to relaxed banter amongst the players in the 'object'. There was a sense of duty to the rest of the crew and an elation for performing well on their behalf and surviving with your 'team'.
The sigh of relief upon landing a crippled bird was only eclipsed by the elation and pride we felt 'together' after surviving a long grueling mission. The various shifts in responsibility and immediacy are not replicated in the present model.
I believe the cohesive team aspect of a multi-crew bomber greatly enhances game play.
Thanks for the reply....
oneway_ch
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:huh
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Kenny, let the grown ups deal with things. Squeaking and trigger pulling should be enough for you.
;)
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Originally posted by Stang
Kenny, let the grown ups deal with things. Squeaking and trigger pulling should be enough for you.
;)
Dont listen to him Kenny...
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Originally posted by Stang
Kenny, let the grown ups deal with things. Squeaking and trigger pulling should be enough for you.
;)
lol nice.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/krisman/beating_2Da_2Ddead_2Dhorse.gif)
Teh w00teness
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i just get 999 and tatertot to gun for me works like a charm ;) heheh
and when im scared in my fighter i get 999 and tater to escort me in htier b26 and b17 lmao!!!!
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Originally posted by Stang
Kenny, let the grown ups deal with things. Squeaking and trigger pulling should be enough for you.
;)
:rofl OMFG that is freakin' funny man (especially if that guy is kenny40) :rofl
But unfourtunately, summer vacation is coming so one all out scores will rise (seal clubbing numbers guys) and two all our ear drums will rupture (massive influx of squeakers) but such is AHII :lol
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so what i have a bad mic and i am trigger happy:)
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:aok
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Originally posted by Wes14
sorry,we dont need everyone flying death-star bombers.
That’s funny, more people that don't want to learn how to attack a bomber formation because coming up low and slow from the back is the way it’s done, at least in a game. The reason death stars worked so good in AW was because of the fact that no one expected the bomber to shoot back, in other words surprise and stupid fighter pilots.
I really don't understand the logic, people will read books and practice countless hours on their ACM, tout realism and accuracy but don't think a bomber should have gunners because they become hard to kill?
I don't think fighters should even get credit for bomber kills because it’s too easy. I'm on my two week trial and no auto gunners in bombers may be the deciding factor on not signing up at the end. I like bombers but it's not much fun when you’re pretty much defenseless when on a bomb run.
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Originally posted by FatCta1957
I really don't understand the logic, people will read books and practice countless hours on their ACM, tout realism and accuracy but don't think a bomber should have gunners because they become hard to kill?
good point & well said
Stang, get rid of your sig, it's too hypocritical
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Check the dates...
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Originally posted by FatCta1957
I like bombers but it's not much fun when you’re pretty much defenseless when on a bomb run.
You're not defensless. You can jump into any gun position you choose to or you can ask another to join you as a gunner.
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Originally posted by Wes14
sorry,we dont need everyone flying death-star bombers.
(http://homepage.mac.com/omegaosx/.Pictures/dead_thread.jpg)
lol:rofl
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You're not defensless. You can jump into any gun position you choose to or you can ask another to join you as a gunner.
When your on a bomb run you really can't just jump into the gunners seat.
I know this was an old thread but why start a new one when this one covers the subject.
There has not been a deathstar since the easy arena in AirWarrior, you have to have big hit bubbles and a relaxed flight model for it to work.
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and of course IRL WWII bombers were never used low-level for strafing. oh, hang on ... :confused:
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All these threads are coming back to life! AAAH!
(http://flashmobvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/zombies_sf_5.jpg)