Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: PanzerIV on May 30, 2007, 12:06:20 PM
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I believe, at least on AH2, the Me 163 is capable of reaching the speed of sound(In a dive, ofcourse).
As i tried today, i reached about 50,000ft and went level, accelerated until it began shaking, then i trimmed the elevator so I was in a steep dive, at about 30,000ft I hit Mach 0.99, then I began to reach the denser air at lower altitudes and the mach number lowerd to about 0.92, I tried to get level and crashed:cry .
I think it is capable of hitting Mach 1.0.
But will the game let me?:confused:
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I believe the 163(had it had more fuel) could have broken the sound barrier in 1945...Claims to the 262 w bent wings doing this is pure bunk.
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Yeah, with more fuel, it could have gotten enough altitude (11 000-20 000meters) where the speed of sound is at 660mph.
It could have dive through this altitude at that speed and broke the sound barrier.
Of course the plane would need to be structurally prepard for this, and the pilot would have to be wearing something to protect him form effect, the cockpit was unpressurized i think so it would need alot of fancy gizmos so it was fit to reach Mach 1.0.
And the Luftwaffe was developping a Me263 wich could go faster and carried more fuel, surely this would have broken the sound barrier if the Me163 couldnt.
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Chuck who?:aok
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/mach.jpg)
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The aerodynamic shape of the Me-262 is unsuitable for supersonic fight. The engines under the wings, if nothing else, would prevent it. The shape of the Me-262 more closely resembles a modern airliner than a supersonic fighter.
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Woot, How did ya do that?
And I am not Talking about going Supersonic, im talking about going SONIC as in Mach 1.000
But the Me 262 does look like an airliner.
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Oh yeah, Me 262 could brake sound barrier.
"The HG series of Me 262 derivatives was estimated to be capable of reaching transonic Mach numbers in level flight, with the top speed of the HG III being projected as Mach 0.96 at 6 km altitude. Despite the necessity to gain experience in high-speed flight for the HG II and III designs, Messerschmitt undertook no attempts to exceed the Mach 0.86 limit for the Me 262."
"After Willy Messerschmitt's death, the former Me 262 pilot Hans Guido Mutke claimed to be the first person to break the sound barrier on 9 April 1945 in a Me 262, in a "straight-down" 90° dive. This claim is disputed because it is only based on Mutke's memory of the incident, which recalls effects that other Me 262 pilots have observed below the speed of sound and a high airspeed indicator reading, but no altitude reading, which would be required to determine the actual speed. Furthermore, the pitot tube used to measure airspeed in aircraft can give falsely elevated readings as the pressure builds up inside the tube at high speeds. Finally, the Me 262 wing had only a slight sweep incorporated for trim (center of gravity) reasons and likely would have suffered structural failure due to divergence at high trans-sonic speeds."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_262
That German guy is either a liar, some crazy bufoon or actually did it.
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Get in one and take off. Cut down to about 25% and use auto angle go up untill your plane disappears. You could use the wind to help but you dont need to. once up there level and get some speed. Then jsut dive and watch the mach number go up. Most Iv ever got to was 1.39 then I get low enough for the air to slow me down.
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Ok, i was wondering if it will let you exceed Mach 0.99 on this game so i guess its confirmed.
yeah, if this game followed the rules of speed off sound then 11 000 through 20 000meters is the best spot for sonic flight.
I will try breaking it again later.
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Ok, I went out tryed the 25% throttel, got up to 50 000 ft and then dived at full throttle, i hit mach 1.00 then slowed down, during that i heard a weird sloosh and saw a silvery thing near my plane, thought it was the misty stuff from when you go mach 1.0 :lol , no, it was my skid ripping off and flying away. :(
I landed relatively safely though.:D
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Originally posted by Larry
Chuck who?:aok
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/mach.jpg)
:lol
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Even better. I cheated this time uped from a 20K base set wind all the way up. When my plane disappeared (which is at 78.5K) I kept climbing and went to make a drink. When I got back I had to be atleast 90-100K I leveled out and waited. I hit mach one in level flight and kept on going. When I was about mach 1.5 I dove down and broke my record.I think this is about as fast as you can go. When I got to about 20k I pulled up and used all my trim, and broke my wings off (something Iv never done before).:aok
Ill try again tomarrow I really want to go past mach 1.5.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/mach1.jpg)
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a 262 can do the mach 1.10
(http://www.georgiawaterfowler.com/ahss37.JPG)
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Ya ive broke the sound barrier in the Area51 Map. :O MUHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHH A:t
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Originally posted by PanzerIV
That German guy is either a liar, some crazy bufoon or actually did it.
P-38 Lightning pilots and P-47 pilots (and even a P-40 pilot) did the exact same thing. The newspapers even said that a P-38 Lightning broke the "sound barrier." Back then, they really thought they were. Logically, one would assume he was going faster than the speed of sound, between A.S.I. readings and the strange effects. It doesn't mean that they were lying or crazy (or that they were going faster than the speed of sound - they weren't).
I repeat, the Me-262 was aerodynamically incapable of it. If nothing else, the engines would rip off, taking the wings with it. More likely, the shockwaves would cause it to just break up all at once.
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Originally posted by Larry
Chuck who?:aok
Bah, he wasn't even the first one, just the first one to do it in an AC ;) Now if I could only remember that crazy bastards name.
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Originally posted by Larry
Chuck who?:aok
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/mach.jpg)
any boom?
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Despite common knowledge Chuck Yeager was not the first to exceed mach 1. Hate to piss in your bean curd but he was bested the morning before his record attemp.
CFYA
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FYI everybody
I was racing last night and we were fling the yak 9u after each race we were given about 3 minutes so, i went up to about 40 thousand feet and the engie died I belive that the air was so thin that it would not let me go any higher so I dived headed staright for the ground at abut 20 thousand feet i was at about 600 MPH i belive that 639 is mach and i had alot of feet to go so i broke it but the problem is that if put any elevator it borke. today i had enough points to buy the 163 so i took of and immedietly climed i gaied about 10 thousan in 30 seconds i was at about 45 thousand when the fuel told me it was at a 1/4 of a tank. so i dived again and i broke th sound barrier but this airplane could could handle the speed and i did a swoop and kill and got about one or two and went off again of couse i did not make it back to base and lost points. but you can reach mach w/ enough height with any airplane
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By whom and according to whom?
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I believe the 163(had it had more fuel) could have broken the sound barrier in 1945...Claims to the 262 w bent wings doing this is pure bunk.
the 163 was capible. the problem was that when the pilots saw that the airplane started to shake and they decresed the throttle they should have increced the throttle and they would have broken it...... they were not smart enough....but they were
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ask GGhost hell tell ya
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lol, 163 only had 3 throttle settings, on, off and messed up so the plane explodes. Its not that they decreased throttle, Germany was running out of materials strong enough for such stress so the plane would rip apart when it reached its critical mach number.
Oh yeah, before Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, F86 test pilots broke it twice in a shallow dive. And, Chuck Yeager didnt break the sound barrier in level flight, he was in a climb.
:O
And bosco, 640mph isnt near the sound barrier.:rofl At 20 000ft it is about 740mph
It is at its least at around 40 000ft, wich it will be at 660mph.
A Yak will tear to shreds before reaching Mach 1.0.:lol
A plane would need swept wings to slow compression and be aerodynamically stable at Mach 1.0.
Me 163 is probably best for job on AH II.
Not to say a unswept wing plane cant brake sound barrier, if you look at Bell X-1 its wing dont look to swept.
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accualy the 163 had 3 settings no throttle half and full because i have spoken to a 163 pilot in NJ and thats what he says and the real speed for mach 1 is 680 at any height bottom line
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and well thqat is not what happend last night, i think we ahd the stall limiter off that is why i didnt rip into shreads
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Originally posted by Bosco123
accualy the 163 had 3 settings no throttle half and full because i have spoken to a 163 pilot in NJ and thats what he says and the real speed for mach 1 is 680 at any height bottom line
No offense, but that's a load. The speed of sound changes with air density, which is in turn changed by altitude and temperature (and I'm sure I'm missing quite a few factors). It's far from constant, and both the true and indicated speeds for Mach one fluctuate with variables.
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but most of the time the speed is 680 it maby 680.5 or680.9 or 681 its only a guesstimate
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No, it's not. It varies hugely based on how warm it is and how high it is.
Your knowledge of aerodynamics is as poor as your spelling. I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but I do know that you are also wrong when you claim that "any aircraft can exceed the speed of sound with enough height." No matter how low the indicated airspeed is, if the shape of the airplane is not right, then travelling faster than the speed of sound will cause shockwaves that will break up the airplane ... or something like that. The only exception would be in an airless environment, and not just "any airplane" can travel in that.
So please stop posting absolute bunk. Next you'll be saying that indicated airspeed is always true.
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P.S. If it makes you feel better, I made a fool out of myself on a very similar subject when I was new to this stuff. I failed to know that indicated airspeed can be drastically different than true. It is important to recognize when you don't know your subject matter well, and be quiet until you do.
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Be nice benny
:rofl
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I know my subject matter well, although you dont. 640mph? sound Barrier is at 640mph?
No 660 is least it will be, Hotter = lower speed of sound, around 11 000 to 20 000meters on a bright and sunny day speed of sound can be 660mph.
sorry got pictures but wont show up, Me 262 at Mach 1.24
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
The only exception would be in an airless environment, and not just "any airplane" can travel in that.
No air = no sound
No sound = no "speed of sound"
wrngway
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At sea level a plane must exceed 741 mph to break the sound barrier
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Yes, but we can get to 11 000meters and break it at 660mph
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The speed varies depending on atmospheric conditions; the most important factor is the temperature. Air pressure(thus alt.) has almost no effect on sound speed.
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Pressure decreases with temperature since atmosphere is open.
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The pressure has nothing to do with it, it's the temp that effects it, so you could be at 11,000 meters but it doesn't matter, the temp is all that matters
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Actually sound travels slower when atoms are spread out, so less pressure means atoms are farther aprt, thus sound takes longer to travel.
Sound is a vibration and must be transfered by matter, if matter is farther apart it takes longer to go from 1 point to another.
I didnt know paying attention in science would pay off, it still hasnt but it helped me with this.:aok
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Ok I'll try and explain it to you one more time, Air pressure has almost no effect on sound speed. Sound usually travels more slowly with greater altitude, due to reduced temperature not air pressure. Read up on the subject.
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Ok, well Temperature affects pressure so you know, more heat=less pressure (cuz particles spread out).
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Ok but its not the pressure effecting the speed, its the temp, look at it this way, if I took a room to measure the speed of sound in where I could control both pressure and temp in, If I change he pressure in that but left the temp the same the speed would remain almost the same no matter what pressure I set it at, now if I change the temp in that room the speed would change greatly depending on what temp I change it too.
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hmmmmm I READ ALL THIS and 1 thing comes to mind science say's a BUMBLEBEE shouldnt be able to fly
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Originally posted by trax1
At sea level a plane must exceed 741 mph to break the sound barrier
Even then it will vary with moisture and temperature. Not only is it impossible to say "speed of sound is X at all altitudes," it's not even possible to say "speed of sound is X at Y altitude." Now if you try, "speed of sound is X at Y altitude with Z humidity and V temperature," then you're starting to make more sense. And there are still other factors, most likely.
Oldtard, science doesn't say that a bumblebee can't fly. Bad science does. It's the same sort of bad science which says that mass and energy can come out of nothing, or that the earth is flat.
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Yeah I didnt mention on there that the speed was based on a temp of about 65F.
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ok, trax, can you tell me why sound goes faster or slower whith change in temperature?
NO LONG AND COMPLICATED EQUATIONS PLEASE!!!
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amazing how active this thread is!
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I'm not 100% possitive but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the change in the density of the air do to temp. Thats density not pressure.
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Density and pressure are much alike, both are related to the spacing between the particles of an object, Density decreases with higher heat, as does pressure,oh yeah, what does a Barometer measure? AIR PRESSURE, not air density, so yeah, we both are right, Temperature and Pressure are both factors in the speed of sound. Higher pressure and lower temperature go together to make a high speed of sound. Opposite is true for high speed of sound.
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Umm sorry to say but your wrong there, density of something has nothing to do with pressure, I'll give you an example. Say I take a cup of water and put a 100 lb of pressure on it, that wont change it's density, now if I take that same cup of water and apply heat or cold to it it's density will change.
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Exaxctly, the same for pressure, but we dont measure air density, we measure AIR PRESSURE. lol, only gotta wait 4 min for a reply!
Do you play in main arena? trax? or H2H arena?
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Ok right, but that air pressure has almost no effect on the speed of sound, now the air density does, and it's temp that changes air density, so do you see what I'm saying now
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I know exactly what you mean, I would agree with you completely if you quit using density and said pressure.
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Density and pressure are two separate things. They are not the same thing. Like I said density is effected by temp and has nothing to do with pressure.
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ok, if agree with you if you can refer u675 to me, he plays in MA, i do not?
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I have no idea what u675 is. I'm guessing its a u-boat.
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ok, nevermind, just wondering if anyone knew. Well, this started as a discussion on if you could break sound barrier in 163 and now it about Density of air and barometers, i dont care, its fun discussing stuff!
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Well that what this place is for. :)
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yep, well ill just go with density then, maybe im wrong, maybe we both are, the thing is we are too lazy to do research and lets not quit being lazy now!
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Originally posted by trax1
Say I take a cup of water and put a 100 lb of pressure on it, that wont change it's density
As I stated previously, I'm somewhat "phyiscally challenged" (physically as in physics, not physique - though I be count as challenged in the latter also). But why would putting pressure on something not change density? If I put enough pressure on, say, a planet to compress it into the size of a golf ball, wouldn't I have a really, really dense planet? Or, let's try a star.
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Ok, Liquid and Air are both fluids, if we get a bag of fluid(Helium) and compress(as they would so alot of air will fit inside a scuba tank) it will become denser.
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im gonna go, might write more tommorow, keep on discussing, i live on east coast and 12:08 means you better go sleep or wake up at lunch time!
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Well I'm not sure about a plant, but air pressure doesn't effect the density of it, or if it does its a small change, but temp will change air density. Which is why temp effects the speed of sound, not air pressure.
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before i go , helium isnt a plant or planet
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Originally posted by PanzerIV
before i go , helium isnt a plant or planet
huh
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Even then it will vary with moisture and temperature. Not only is it impossible to say "speed of sound is X at all altitudes," it's not even possible to say "speed of sound is X at Y altitude." Now if you try, "speed of sound is X at Y altitude with Z humidity and V temperature," then you're starting to make more sense. And there are still other factors, most likely.
Oldtard, science doesn't say that a bumblebee can't fly. Bad science does. It's the same sort of bad science which says that mass and energy can come out of nothing, or that the earth is flat.
LMAO BS science says a Bumbble bee should not be able to fly with its weight to wing ratio according to science it should not be able to fly but then again they said a helo couldnt do a loop
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Speed of sound in an ideal gas depends on temperature, not pressure or density. So, you could take a container of ideal gas of a given temperature, measure the speed of sound through it, pump up the container to a higher pressure, get the temperature back to where it was (but the pressure is still now higher), and the speed of sound would be the same.
Our atmosphere isn't a perfectly ideal gas, so there is a slight variance with pressure and density, but it is small; there is also some variance with humidity. However, the biggest effect is temperature.
The reason the speed of sound generally goes down with altitude is mainly because the temperature goes down with altitude. However, speed of sound at sea level in Antarctica in its winter could thus be the same as speed of sound at higher altitude over the Sahara in its summer.
For more detailed info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
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The F-86 pilot who is purported to have broken the sound barrier before Yeager is George Welch, the pilot who shot down at least 4 Japanese planes during Pearl Harbor.
A very interesting read here -- The Amazing George Welch:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html
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LOL...this thread is funny. Nice to know we have a supersonic 163 Club on here. Now to end the bickering....it's amazing the small grasp that folks have on really basic science... except for a few of the more enlightened of the bunch...Not surprised we americans have problems on understanding global warming and evolution.
Speed of Sound....an overview...
Disturbances are transmitted through a gas as a result of collisions between the randomly moving molecules in the gas. The transmission of a small disturbance through a gas is an isentropic process. The conditions in the gas are the same before and after the disturbance passes through. Because the speed of transmission depends on molecular collisions, the speed of sound depends on the state of the gas. The speed of sound is a constant within a given gas and the value of the constant depends on the type of gas (air, pure oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.) and the temperature of the gas. Loosely translated....
55,000 ft 660mph
0 ft @ STP 761 MPH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Underwater.... 3,300 MPH
Those F-86 jocks are reconized as probably accomplishing the transonic threshhold, albeit for a very short length of time.. (hard to justify staying in that dive when your ride acts like a tourrette's baby) Yeager is identified as the first person recognized by SCIENTIFICALLY measured experiment to break it. Therefore... He is the first to do it, and have the measurements taken at all altitudes to prove it, and that's why he's the first.
more than my two cents but c' est l' vie...
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Originally posted by oldtard
LMAO BS science says a Bumbble bee should not be able to fly with its weight to wing ratio according to science it should not be able to fly but then again they said a helo couldnt do a loop
If you mean "B.S. science says," then you are correct; it's "B.S. science," for sure. If, on the other hand, you meant, "B.S.! Science says," then you're wrong. Again, science does not say that a bumblebee can't fly. A few bad scientists have. Only an aerodynamic simpleton tries to calculate something using only wingloading. Wingloading's just one factor in a large and complicated equation. If any "scientist" tries to calculate something about an aircraft using only wingloading, he's a bad scientist. If a "scientist" calculates something that's proven wrong (like a bumblebee being unable to fly), then his calculations are missing factors. It doesn't at all mean that science itself is lacking.
Your claim that science is "B.S." because some scientists used incomplete calculations to arrive at the wrong concusion is very much like what happens when a noob in a Zeke gets out-turned by my P-38. He cries, "B.S.! There's no way that P-38 can turn with my Zeke. This game is crap!" He's blaming the game for his mistakes, when in actuality the game is correct and it's his maneuvering ability which stinks.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
No, it's not. It varies hugely based on how warm it is and how high it is.
Your knowledge of aerodynamics is as poor as your spelling. I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but I do know that you are also wrong when you claim that "any aircraft can exceed the speed of sound with enough height." No matter how low the indicated airspeed is, if the shape of the airplane is not right, then travelling faster than the speed of sound will cause shockwaves that will break up the airplane ... or something like that. The only exception would be in an airless environment, and not just "any airplane" can travel in that.
So please stop posting absolute bunk. Next you'll be saying that indicated airspeed is always true.
in AH2 there are only a few airplanes that could not exceed mach one. and here is information national areonutics and space administartion themselves and if you do not no who that is because of your intellagence that is nasa my poor spelling is because not a great typer:
As an aircraft moves through the air, the air molecules near the aircraft are disturbed and move around the aircraft. If the aircraft passes at a low speed, typically less than 250 mph, the density of the air remains constant. But for higher speeds, some of the energy of the aircraft goes into compressing the air and locally changing the density of the air. This compressibility effect alters the amount of resulting force on the aircraft. The effect becomes more important as speed increases. Near and beyond the speed of sound, about 330 m/s or 760 mph, small disturbances in the flow are transmitted to other locations isentropically or with constant entropy. But a sharp disturbance generates a shock wave that affects both the lift and drag of an aircraft.
The ratio of the speed of the aircraft to the speed of sound in the gas determines the magnitude of many of the compressibility effects. Because of the importance of this speed ratio, aerodynamicists have designated it with a special parameter called the Mach number in honor of Ernst Mach, a late 19th century physicist who studied gas dynamics. The Mach number M allows us to define flight regimes in which compressibility effects vary.
I am sorry for my calculations but i do not make fun of you so don' make fun of me people that goes for all!!!
:( :cry :mad
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Whatever. Have fun wallowing in your ignorance. I give up.
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i will make a correction on what planes will and will not reach mach 1 i belive almost all fighter planes can reach mach 1 and if you want me to prove it then give me the go
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http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/sound.html
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
P.S. If it makes you feel better, I made a fool out of myself on a very similar subject when I was new to this stuff. I failed to know that indicated airspeed can be drastically different than true. It is important to recognize when you don't know your subject matter well, and be quiet until you do.
(http://www.teachnet.ie/torourke/Physicswebsite/Interesting%20links_files/soundbarrier.gif)
I bet ur puny P38 can't do that:O :rofl
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Originally posted by ForrestS
(http://www.teachnet.ie/torourke/Physicswebsite/Interesting%20links_files/soundbarrier.gif)
Stargate! :lol
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wat???
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You dont know what Stargate is? Wow thats a first.
Oh by the way its what??? not wat???.
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Ok, well just wondering why a Discussion on Speed of sound has turned into taliking about whos the Biggest Startrek fan?
Of course it is probably Stephen Hawkings or Larry.
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i dived from 50k b4 in a 163 in offline. pulled up from 25k, hit 0.99M.
accidently hit the b24 drone and broke half a wing. still landed safely with that puny skid.
EDIT: suprised i didn't break a elevator or airlerons. i was like :O
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I put winds at 127, rise -127, full power, down trim...heading down from 40k I got all shakey and died. Then I tried with less winds and made it only like .93 mach.
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Are all those "I r teH xxx" avatards shade accounts? :huh
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as someone taking a break from studying for a thermodynamics test tomarrow morning, this thread is absolutely killing me.
panzer iv, there are so many incorrect statements in your posts that i don't even know where to start.
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Originally posted by toonces3
as someone taking a break from studying for a thermodynamics test tomarrow morning, this thread is absolutely killing me.
panzer iv, there are so many incorrect statements in your posts that i don't even know where to start.
Yeah I tryed explaining it to him as best I could. But I'm sure you know way more about the subject then I do
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Originally posted by titanic3
i dived from 50k b4 in a 163 in offline. pulled up from 25k, hit 0.99M.
accidently hit the b24 drone and broke half a wing. still landed safely with that puny skid.
EDIT: suprised i didn't break a elevator or airlerons. i was like :O
yeah i've landed a me163 with half a wing after a collision also. the reason you didn't lose elevators or airlerons is because the 163 has elevons (the elevators control both pitch and roll). and these are on the inner most part of the wing.
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Actually the wing has elavotors and ailerons, both on the wing but separate