Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: duddini on May 30, 2007, 01:15:46 PM
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Let me start by saying I know my biggest problem is an extreme lack of skill :(
But I was wondering if a set of CH rudder pedals might help me to get better just a little faster. Right now I have a Saitek stick with a twist handle for the rudders, but it just doesn't seem intuitive at all. I've read where adding rudder helps with roll rate among other things, but I forget about it in the heat of trying to survive. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks all
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I never flew with a twisty stick. I either used the keypad, or as soon as I could afford them pedals My first set was a pair that I made, other than being a bit small, they worked ok. But as soon as I could, I bought CH pedals.
Will it help you fly better, not right off. Later you might use them to advantage by not adding rudder when you don't want to like you "could" while yanking on your stick.
About the pnly thing that will make up for lack of skill is practice. Get with some trainers and learn from them. The more information you can get into your head, while still understanding it, the better!
Then, PRACTICE !!
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The only thing getting you there faster is the time invested and your learning capabilities.
Using twisty or pedals comes down to personal preference and either will do the trick.
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But I was wondering if a set of CH rudder pedals might help me to get better just a little faster. Right now I have a Saitek stick with a twist handle for the rudders, but it just doesn't seem intuitive at all. I've read where adding rudder helps with roll rate among other things, but I forget about it in the heat of trying to survive. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks all
Duddini,
I started (Last October) with a twisty stick and got to a point where I could control my plane reasonably well with it. I made the switch to a set of pedals abt a month ago and am still having a hard time with the adjustment. When I have the time to thing about what I'm trying to do, the pedals work much better than the twisty stick but IMHO they are much less instinctive than the twisty stick. The pedals allow for much better control, and separation from cross-talking the controls (inadvertent rudder application by unaware/unintended twist of the joystick), but a relatively short period of flying with a twisty stick will pretty much cement the concept - where it's been many hours before the pedals have (will) become natural.
Regards,
Optiker
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I got some for xmas.
I played with a twist stick for 7 years. Pedals make a nice difference in snapshots, Controlled stalls, rolls and taxiing.
It gives you that slight bit more immersion and I would say get them if you can afford it.
Basically you get a wider range of motion = more control.
Bruv
~S~
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I learned with a twisty then went to pedals. It takes a bit of time to get used to the pedals but it is worth it. Gunnery improved the greatest for me, I found the pedals easier to get the guns on target.
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This month marks my first year with AH2 - the first 7 months with twist-stick. At that point it was completly natural for me to use the twist function - didnt even think about it, just did it when needed.
When I got my pedals I was forced to be aware of the rudder function, it did not feel natural at all - often I would forget my legs and lock the rudder in a ackward position.
Recently I have again reached that point where I dont think about the rudder in a close turnfight - I just do it per instinct.
But - I dont know if I today would fly different if I had stayed with the twisty-stick.
What I do know is that the pedals for a long period forced me to be more analytic about how my axis movements affected the plane.
I also tend to believe that the greater travel of the pedals gives me more room for precise rudder movements.
And lastly, I have more fun with pedals - this-is-how-a-ww2-bird-is-supposed-to-be-flown-sense just increase the immersion for me :)
oh - by the way - if you sit in an office chair with wheels (like I do) find a way to block it, or you are in for a surprise first time you push the pedals :D
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Using twisty or pedals comes down to personal preference and either will do the trick.
That's wrong. There's a very, very good reason why real aircraft all use pedals and not twist sticks.
Pedals offer much more precision. Not only do they not not tend to move when you move the stick (as does a twist stick), but since their range of motion is many times that of a twist stick, you can utilize much more of your potentiometers' accuracy.
For instance, if you move your twist stick half an inch, that's a full fourth of your axis. If you move your pedals half an inch, however, that's only about a twentieth of your axis. Therefore, a half-inch error (or any movement) on a twist stick will be very noticeable and drastic, being a 25% error. A half-inch error on pedals will not be noticeable or drastic at all, being only a 5% error. Imagine if your automobile had a wheel that was only four inches across and only went around 90 degrees. You'd be in an accident in no time.
I don't recommend CH Pedals, though. I have a pair and they're far closer together than an airplane's pedals should be. They're about four inches apart, where a real airplanes should be perhaps eighteen inches apart. Saitek's pedals look much more like it.
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I flew AW (and early AH) for 8 years with rudder pedals. After my 5 year break, I found that had to buy new flight gear because none of my stuff was USB. I bought a Saitek Av8tor, which is a twisty stick. I found that I was struggling with the twist rudder and that it was hard to both twist my wrist and operate the hat switch, etc. at the same time.
I went and got a "game port to USB" converter and got my CH pedals working again. I am much happier now. It definately makes it easier for me to maintain control than just using the twisty stick.
I still suck, but it's good to remove any factor that contributes to it whenever possible. :lol
Originally posted by duddini
Let me start by saying I know my biggest problem is an extreme lack of skill :(
But I was wondering if a set of CH rudder pedals might help me to get better just a little faster. Right now I have a Saitek stick with a twist handle for the rudders, but it just doesn't seem intuitive at all. I've read where adding rudder helps with roll rate among other things, but I forget about it in the heat of trying to survive. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks all
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I'll do my part to dispell the myth, but I gave up trying to persuade people to use pedals. It's not as if I'll lose anything if they use twist sticks instead; they'll be that much easier for me to shoot down. If they lack the common sense to make the connection between real airplane controls and gaming controllers, then they deserve to have a hard time flying (especially when people who have flown real aircraft explain it and are ignored).
So, yeah, hold on to your twist sticks, suckers. I'll see you in the skies.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's wrong. There's a very, very good reason why real aircraft all use pedals and not twist sticks.
Mechanically, it was very impractical, sometimes impossible, to attach all controls to a single stick or yoke. That was the reason.
Ever since fly by wire became common in aircraft, trend was to move stick from center to the side, limit its movement (pressure touch stick), and if unmanned craft give us some more time, twisty will find it's way into cockpit as well.
Comanche, although not fixed wing aircraft, was first using twisty stick for yaw control.
Even though majority of the joysticks have badly implemented twisty control, it makes helluva more sense, at least from ergonomical point of view, than pedals.
Look at the top AH sticks and you'll find fair share of twisty users...
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Those aircraft practically fly themselves. The F-16, the only current U.S. fighter to use a small digital joystick, has a full authority fly-by-wire system, with an angle of attack limiter that the pilot cannot override (except by holding down a switch, only done in the case of a deep stall). Very precise motion isn't necessary with an angle of attack limiter and a computer that is constantly assisting your control movements. And note that the F-16 still has pedals, in spite of its full fly-by-wire.
But whatever. Again, it's your funeral. Believe me, or don't. Benny is done.
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I've been using the same MS Sidewinder 3D Pro twisty for 11 years now. It's completely natural to me.
There is a disadvantage though and that's inadvertant rudder application while using elevators or ailerons in flight or inadvertant elevator or aileron application while taxiing. It happens but it's not a big issue.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
So, yeah, hold on to your twist sticks, suckers. I'll see you in the skies.
But whatever. Again, it's your funeral. Believe me, or don't. Benny is done.
................. (http://sierra-host.net/bb/mental.gif)
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
................. (http://sierra-host.net/bb/mental.gif)
lol - I am very happy that you help me with my flying and not my drawing :D
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Much depends upon what you are used to.. I've used twisty sticks, rudder rockers (X45) and CH pedals. I prefer the pedals for several reasons.
The drawback to twisties is that a lot of pilots inadvertently rotate their hand when in combat. This causes unwanted rudder displacement, which kills speed and cross-controls the airplane. It takes practice and some awareness to avoid this. Bighorn2 is a top pilot and he uses a twisty stick. Others at his level use pedals. It's all a matter of what works best for you.
One important point... Spending $100 for pedals carries some risk that you will not like the pedals. So, if a twisty works for you, then put off the investment, or buy a used set off of EBay or from another player. At least if you don't like the pedals, you haven't spent $100 to learn that.
My regards,
Widewing
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Peds won't help you at first, but there's a lot of stuff you can pull off much more easily if you have them. It can be difficult to fly hard and add the rudder you need with a twisty stick... you're much more prone to make a mistake. I used a twisty stick until about a year ago, and did just fine for those 4 years. They're not a necessity, but if it's in your budget, go for it.
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I use the Saitek X-52 system i do not have rudder peddles but i did lock the twisty stick(I found in combat i was twisting the rudders by mistake).
What i use as rudders is the hat switch(left of the B firirng button)
I could be wrong but seems to me that it responds 2X as quick as the twisty.
As soon as can can afford rudder peddles i am getting them ,but until then i will keed using the hat switch,takes a little to get used to it but maybe it will work for you also GL.
OLD42
~THE UNFORGIVIN~
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's wrong.
. . .I don't recommend CH Pedals, though. I have a pair and they're far closer together than an airplane's pedals should be. They're about four inches apart, where a real airplanes should be perhaps eighteen inches apart. Saitek's pedals look much more like it.
I defintely prefer pedals over twisty, but then I learned to fly real a/c long before I learned to fly AH. so it seems more "natural" to me.
re: CH vs Saitek pedals - I used to have the CH Pro pedals, but they kept developing a short or spiking problem. As I use the Saitek X45 HOTAS, when Saitek came out with their pedals, I bought a pair and have been totally satisfied with them. As mentioned earlier, they are about 8 inches wider than the CH pedals, closer to the "real a/c pedals distance. Being a big guy, I find that extra 8 in. to add a lot in the comfort in using them. WIth the CH pedals, I always felt like I was having to squeeze my legs together to use them. They also have adjustable tension, altough I turned the tension on mine all the way up just to have a little resistance that I can feel on them.
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Thanks for all the input guys. I'm going to scrape up the $$ and go for pedals, if nothing else they seem like they would be more "realistic" (for a game played at home, in air conditioning, sitting in a comfy chair in front of a 'puter :) ).
Now the question is: CH or Saitek pedals ?
Thanks again for all the info, these boards are an awesome place to come for info/opinions.
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As SKJohn mentioned, CH Products controllers are not durable; the wiring comes loose or the potentiometers fail about once a year. I've used CH Products joystick and pedals for about five years, and every year I've had to send them back for repair. While I love the joystick, I'm not so fond of the pedals for the spiking (as well as for the smallness which PKJohn and I've explained). I plan on getting another Combatstick when mine breaks for good, but if my pedals break I'm switching to Saitek pedals.
I've never used Saitek pedals, but I recommend going with Saitek pedals all the same. But I recommend a CH joystick—if you're willing to ship them to California for fifteen dollars every year (it's about a month wait on average, too). Saitek joysticks are more durable than CH, but they're not quite as precise.
One more thing—be certain that you have enough room under your desk. With pedals, you need to have them not only directly in front of you, but also far enough away from you that you can use them effectively. But you also must be close enough to your desk to hold your joystick. I personally am having a nightmare of an ergonomics problem, between my monitor, joystick, pedals, and TrackIR.
In order for my joystick to not smack the monitor when I roll left hard, I have to keep it so far to the right that I have to hunch over to use it. On the other hand my legs are sort of cramped so I can be close enough to use my joystick. Being in position to use my joystick means I'm off center for my TrackIR, so I kind of have to look at the monitor out of the corner of my eye a bit, which causes eyestrain.
All this is after I painstakingly measured my desk, chair, pedals, and TrackIR and centered them. I also raised my monitor. Anyway, I'm sure I've bored you with me woes; I just want you to be sure your desk can support your equipment. If not, you may also need to save up for a new desk.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Even though majority of the joysticks have badly implemented twisty control, it makes helluva more sense, at least from ergonomical point of view, than pedals.
Wrong.
It makes worse sense, and you'll find this out when you use a twisty stick for 5+ years like I did.
I got good. I got very good. I could make all the instant snapshots. I could pull the proper angle to get my kill.
That was just me learning to overcome the problems, that doesn't make it efficient or ergonomic.
The problem with a twisty is that you have to twist WHILE coordinating up/down and left/right, and depending on the way you bank or climb you also have to twist, and the very nature of twisting forces motion into the other axes. Your "twist" is hinged on your wrist, NOT the center of the stick, so there's motion forced onto the left/right up/down directions even if you just want to twist. Conversely, if you're trying to hold a bank and lead on a target, adding a bit of rudder to correct aim or slip is harder. If you are right-handed, adding left rudder is even worse! Especially if you're banked right and just need a nudge left to get that kill shot!
I switched to old analog rudder pedals. They don't even slide like real pedals (or like CH Pro pedals) they just depress like gas brakes. They're much better than twisty sticks. Not only can I get better aim, I find myself coordinating a lot of moves that I would never have done in twisty-stick-use. I correct slip a lot more (and effortlessly so), and I can zoom better and perform better hammerhead or near-stall manuvers in the vertical.
The reason it's better is because you're not screwing yourself over by messing up the other 2 axes when you want to use the 3rd. Imagine if the throttle were mounted on the side of the stick itself, and to adjust it you'd have to reach up and press into the stick (and mess up whatever you're doing) then imagine trying to hold aim with bank, pitch, rudder, and adjust your throttle. You're SOL. Then imagine the throttle on the base of the stick, or separate from the stick. MUCH better. Because it doesn't interfere at all.
Twisty sticks interfere. Pedals don't. That alone makes them much better.
The retraining period is a b****, though. Takes many months to relearn how to fly.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The retraining period is a b****, though. Takes many months to relearn how to fly.
That's why it's important to never learn twist. I went straight from real airplane to CH Pedals, and while gaming controllers are greatly inferior and more difficult than real airplane controls, it was a much quicker adaptation than if I'd used a flawed controller for a long time.
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I don't think it's important "NEVER" to learn twisty. It helps. Especially if you came from other games that used it. However, I agree that even if you overcome the problems, you still are handicapping yourself.
If you can't afford pedals, then twisty will "git 'er done".
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Originally posted by duddini
Thanks for all the input guys. I'm going to scrape up the $$ and go for pedals, if nothing else they seem like they would be more "realistic" (for a game played at home, in air conditioning, sitting in a comfy chair in front of a 'puter :) ).
Now the question is: CH or Saitek pedals ?
Thanks again for all the info, these boards are an awesome place to come for info/opinions.
I'd recommend the CH Pro Pedals. They've fixed the wiring problem on the pedals that caused the spikes and generally they do make an excellent product.
On my other gaming machine I still have my first CH gear installed and they are over 10 years old. During that time, I've only had to change the potentiometers once on my Pro Throttle. On my main gaming machine, I have the CH USB HOTAS setup, which I've had for 4 years and they have yet to fail on me.
ack-ack
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Pedals are definitely better!
I've had mine for a month now. And while my stats this tour took a hit because of the learning curve, I'm pretty well acclimated to them now and feel much more confident with them in a duel than with twist control.
I suggest doing some more research outside of this board to get a little better sense of CH vs Saitek etc. But CH gear on average is rock solid. And if you happen to have something break, new stuff comes with a great warranty. Mine is covered for the next 3 years. And through Provantage.com I ended up paying less for the CH gear than what most comparable Saitek stuff costs.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Wrong.
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Using twisty or pedals comes down to personal preference and either will do the trick.
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quote:
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Using twisty or pedals comes down to personal preference and either will do the trick.
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Bighorn, your statement seems to imply there is no difference between the two. There is as much difference between using twisty and using pedals, as there is between using keyboard and using twisty.
Yours implies there's no difference, and it's only what the player likes.
When I typed "wrong" I was pointing out there is an advantage to using the pedals. If you cannot, then twisty "will do" -- same as if you don't have a twisty, the keyboard "will do" (or just don't use rudder at all).
Doesn't mean that it's up to personal preference, because almost everybody here will tell you using the keyboard for rudder is wrong, even if you prefer to.
That's all I had to say. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Yours implies there's no difference, and it's only what the player likes.
In order to have a preference at all, there has to be a difference.
All I'm saying is there's no results of any controlled test which would prove that using one over another would give you any significant advantage in this game, especially when it comes to learning ACM.
Unless you come up with hard instead of only perceived evidence, I'll stick with my statement.
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Started out with Saitek twisty. It is hard to be accurate.
Switched to X45 rocker also Saitek. Better but still does not feel right.
Bought Saitek pedals...........:aok Big difference!
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interesting read, thanks for posting this.
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Logan:
you've heard from some guys who are truly very good pilots. I'll chime in with the voice of the average guy from the peanut gallery.
I do NOT have intrinsic gamer skill, and I didn't grow up with video game hand-eye coordination like my kds have. I never could pat my head vertically and rub my belly in a circle at the same time. I'm in the game because I just love planes, and WW2 combat aviation history in particular.
And I found pedals to be a MAJOR help for my game. Maybe because I don't have that instinctive coordination, I was OFTEN accidentally inputting rudder when I moved the joystick -- a lot like when we lean to the side to make the plane roll faster! Other times I'd find that I couldnt keep up with squaddies haveing the same plane and loadout, again probably because I was accidentally ruddering one way and balancing with airelon to "look" straight.
With pedals I have a much easier time getting my body to work right, to give the correct input for what moves I'm trying to make. I still feel hamfisted, but having the better controllers means I have more space for imprecision. I don't expect myslef to be as precise as the gifted ones, and the pedals give me more range of motion -- which minimizes overcontrolling.
So yeah, I bought the CH ones, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
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I tried a twist-stick and hated it, I had the tendency to try turning by twist rather than correctly. Maybe I just like the twistyness too much?:confused:
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I'll do my part to dispell the myth, but I gave up trying to persuade people to use pedals. It's not as if I'll lose anything if they use twist sticks instead; they'll be that much easier for me to shoot down. If they lack the common sense to make the connection between real airplane controls and gaming controllers, then they deserve to have a hard time flying (especially when people who have flown real aircraft explain it and are ignored).
So, yeah, hold on to your twist sticks, suckers. I'll see you in the skies.
Bighorn uses a twist stick, try dueling him
:D
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I'll do that, if he will. He might win, but if that's the case, then he'd have won even better with pedals.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I'll do that, if he will. He might win, but if that's the case, then he'd have won even better with pedals.
Well I started with twisty, bought CH pedals, then went back to x52 twisty.
I think it really does just depend. I didn't care for the pedals. Many of the better duelers that I have talked to use twisty. AND NO, I'm not implying that there are not a lot of good sticks with pedals, there are many.
I think pedals are very MA friendly. For dueling it seems (IMO so no body freak out) twist gives me better precision in say very tight rolling scissors etc. Now in the real world (or maybe the MA for that matter) 2 pilots getting into a very tight 60+ second rolling scissors probably isn't going to happen to often.
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i would use pedals if i had the time and spare money.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i would use pedals if i had the time and spare money.
Don't get spoiled, be happy with your sidewinder.
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well in my experience limited to less than 1 hour, I can say I think I prefer the twisty stick a bit more!!!!!!!
UGH, been waiting for these farking pedals for a long time too.
CH. Seem pretty sturdy... but I like to sit weird so this is a bit of a change for me.
So, I figured I'll give them a shot before I box them up as obviously I went into them with a negative tone.
So, after flying I realized two huge things.
1. I have no extra ability in maneuverability what so ever. My twisty is pretty good sooo.
2. I can't fine aim at ground or air targets nearly as well. The muscle want to move a MINIMUM amount and you actually end up using your opposite leg to retard the movement so you don't 'overshoot' your correction.
Not sure how to explain it, but there is some funk there.
I'm going to give them a good months try, keep them around for a racing game possibly if I get one, or just toss them on ebay when it's all said and done if I don't find a blatant purpose for them vs a twisty.
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I've had my CH pedals "forever" and wouldn't give them up for anything. Yes it will take a bit of getting use to, but in the long run they are great. Adjusting the scaling is important, I believe Murdr posted a picture of how his are set on the boards.
Mine are set pretty much the same way as his, the 0 slider is about a third of the way up from the bottom, the next 4 (10-40) are a "half a button head" higher than the on before it, then the rest are evenly spaced to finish the arc top the top.
It might be easier to "search" for Murdrs picture :D
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(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/rudder.jpg)
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Rudder pedals provide a level of fine control I never experienced with a wrist twist stick. This has helped in gunnery and minimizing drag. I can perform maneuvers using the rudder pedals that I could not perform using a twist rudder. I appreciate the toe brakes during taxi and on landing as well. CH products produces very good USB rudder pedals.
Some do well with a twisty sick. Maybe you are one of them?
Regards,
Malta
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I dearly want a ch rudder/stick setup....mebbe birthday.....best thing I can forsee about pro's/ cons is being able to NOT use rudder unless ya want to---damned hard to apply hard aileron OR hard rudder in a fight and not put in a smidgen of the other. I was at Kak3's house a few years ago, and tried out his setup (he had no rudder at all, as I recall)--was night and day how easy it was to keep plane on target without the unwanted control surfaces coming into play
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I always enjoy this question.
I began flying real airplanes 23 years ago. They all have rudder pedals.
In a real airplane, unless you are on the ground taxiing, you apply pressure to the rudder more than actually move it very much. The same is true for all of the flight control in normal high speed flight.
In aerobatics or combat ACM it then becomes a matter of strength and leverage. Two hands on the stick and the big leg muscles to horse the controls around.
In virtual flying there is no real feel. It is much closer to fly by wire than a real airplane.
Fine control wins the day every time online.
The lighter the touch on the stick, the better control over the virtual aircraft.
There is a pretty big brain disconnect when using very fine stick movements in combination with rather coarse rudder pedal displacement in the virtual world.
Your legs and feet just don't have the same motor control that your hands do unless you practice playing the guitar with your toes or something.
A twisty stick, once you become accustomed to its use, is actually more natural than coordinating feet and hands.
I've only used Sidewinder equipment in over 10 years of virtual flying. Tried pedals a few times and even though I'm very used to using my feet while flying (thousands of taildragger hours and some aerobatics experience) I prefer the twisty rudder in virtual flying. I imagine I would prefer the twisty rudder in real airplanes by a wide margin also.
Rudder pedals were always a compromise solution in airplanes. The flight controls in general are always a compromise in real airplanes. For the most part they suck. The ideal control is a sidestick fly by wire control because it has no limitation on its range of motion. This is not true with floor mounted sticks or ANY yoke. Something is always in the way.
I can remember many full cross control slips in the Beech 18 that were difficult to accomplish because of the need for full leg extension and full opposite aileron on the side mounted column yoke. With a twisty that same full body gyration is possible with a slight deflection of the wrist.
With a floor mounted stick and rudder pedals the leg opposite the applied rudder HAS to bend and it gets in the way of the stick, preventing full application of the stick in some aircraft.
In the arena its easy to spot someone using rudder pedals because in the heat of the fight they over control the rudder, which loads up the drag on the airplane. It is a rare virtual pilot that can effectively coordinate heavy leg muscles on CH pedals with finesse on the stick under a good adrenaline rush.
Using rudder pedals forces the virtual pilot to desensitize his stick settings to match the lack of fine control in the pedals.
With my twisty I can fly with all the sliders at 100 percent because I'm flying with only my fingertips and my brain doesn't have to reconcile the coarse leg movements with fine hand movements.
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The differance between Gumbeau and most of the rest of us, is he was trained to use a bunch of muscle to horse his planes around where those of us who only fly cartoon plane are trained to be easy with our legs/feet.
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Originally posted by Domin
Don't get spoiled, be happy with your sidewinder.
i only got a saitek cyborg.
i would wear girls clothes for my old sidewinder.
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get the pedals man. i flew with twisty stick till about almost two weeks ago. i am not use to the pedals tho but i can already tell the are helping me alot with gunnery :aok
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
The differance between Gumbeau and most of the rest of us, is he was trained to use a bunch of muscle to horse his planes around where those of us who only fly cartoon plane are trained to be easy with our legs/feet.
Naw, a couple thousand hours in heavily loaded multi engine tail draggers teaches you to be very light on your feet or you end up going backwards on a regular basis.
Your feet aren't your hands no matter what.
Just ask your wife.
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Some good advice on this one so all covered by this point. I use the twisty stick and due to my rudders spiking, I'm going to look into getting some pedals soon myself so we both in same boat about looking on info about those :aok