Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: oldtard on June 01, 2007, 04:06:55 PM
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does turning a engine off help you turn better in the p38?
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No
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no but it does help you spin better. :)
So far the only advantage I've found to a differential throttle is helping roll rate @ low speeds, due to using the torque of one engine to your advantage.
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If you want to get out of a fight turn off 1 engine, and flatspin it, that turn it back on...it works for me sometimes.
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Originally posted by SpikesX
If you want to get out of a fight turn off 1 engine, and flatspin it, that turn it back on...it works for me sometimes.
We don't want people to learn bad habits. That is not the recommended way of shaking a bogie of your six. And as you pointed out that it only works sometimes for you, I'm willing to bet it only works 1 out of 10 times.
ack-ack
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And it will never, ever work against anyone who knows what he is doing.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
And it will never, ever work against anyone who knows what he is doing.
ya youve tried lol
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LOL the whole point of counter rotating engines is to NEGATE TORQUE. Turning one engine off induces torque, slows you down and can get you into a almost irrecoverable flat spin.......
I used to try chopping throttle on one engine to induce a wingover or hammerhead in the vertical at high speed but even then I found that it would spin around too far too fast...........
Finally it just wasn't woth it
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Actually, torque can actually assist a turn. The rotary engines on Great War kites were designed to cause the airplanes to turn better in one direction. However, when you throttle back one engine in the P-38, the resulting loss of power cannot make up for the torque gained. Power helps you turn much more than torque does.
I suppose that, above corner turning speed, throttling back one engine might help a bit. But once you're below corner, you need as much power as you can get.
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Only time i've tried single engine control is in a wing over. Murdr showed it to me but its hard to get right and i cant do it well enough to have it be useful to me.
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As one who flies a single engined P38 all the time, I can tell you without question, it does not help :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
As one who flies a single engined P38 all the time, I can tell you without question, it does not help :)
With all due respect, they're usually not flying for very long. :D
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Originally posted by Soulyss
With all due respect, they're usually not flying for very long. :D
What are you laughing about? You are usually following my wreckage with your wreckage. It's part of the code of the Headhunter! :aok
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Hmm. I wanna try this flat spin! [Images of Top Gun dance in his head...]
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Originally posted by Guppy35
What are you laughing about? You are usually following my wreckage with your wreckage. It's part of the code of the Headhunter! :aok
Where fearless leader goes I am obliged to follow. :)
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Having those two engines though makes it pretty easy to get out of a flAt spin. Or pretty much any uncontrolled spin really. Drop both engines to idle, then slam on the engine opposite the spin, and quickly even the engines out.
You'll staighten out just like that.
Also with it's wieght it's difficult to make a P38 stay in a flat spin anyway. It will usually very obediantly nose over with very little effort, allowing you to regain control quickly.
Once you get used to the P38 you'll find it to be a really table platform compared to the single engined heavy fighters. awsome for strafing and dive bombing. though sometimes I wish we could sling gun pods under the wings where the rockets normally go.
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I have a DA film of how killing one engine(p38) can turn a close scissors fite where u are at a disadvantage(vs a better stick) into an unexpected overshoot(& kill).
I'll email it if anyone wants it.
mapmusic@mountaincable.net
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If I had a dual throttle (or even better, a quadrant!) I'd do that in 38s and other planes more. As-is, it's too difficult to change engine selection, change setting, switch engine (settings jump to whatever your throttle/RPM are at) and then reset, then go back to the other engine, and repeat.
Would be soooo much nicer with dual throttles (and dual RPMs)
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I have an x52 and have set the hat switch on the throttle to select each engine or select both plus start stop, makes it easy. Flick the opposite engine and pull back on the throttle but i rarely find any practical use for it other then spin recovery.
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Who says it has to be practical? Sometimes you do things because they're just fun! :D
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Who says it has to be practical? Sometimes you do things because they're just fun!
But unfortunately, there are people who pick on these stuff from threads like these and start propagating myths. Its pathetic, but its known to happen.
Therefore, clerick's verification was not unnecessary. Some people actually do believe that being able to do something will always result in something practical.
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Originally posted by clerick
...but i rarely find any practical use for it other then spin recovery.
And that's all it's pretty much good for. I used to use a SunCom dual throttle when I first started AH, just to see how it would work. After about 5 months using it, I went back to my old Pro Throttle as I really didn't see any tangible benefits to using one. The only thing it helped with was making it easier to recover from those dreaded snap roll spins and it made my Hammerheads look oh so pretty.
Having said that, I have however just ordered the dual throttle from CH but just for the "immersion" factor and to make my hammerheads look pretty again.
ack-ack
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Ooooh...! Is that the one with 2 additional levers for RPM?
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NO it wont help. Use flaps, those help alot. Ask Benny. You will be on the edge of stalling tho. The only thing turning of a engine will do is to help u get OUT of a spin. I dont really even turn it off i just lower the power on one so ill stop spinning. :aok
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Originally posted by ForrestS
Use flaps, those help alot. Ask Benny. You will be on the edge of stalling tho.
[Cringe.] You are addressing some of the best P-38 fliers in this game. Invoking my name before them like the name of an apostle just makes me look foolish. Or is that your intention? Of course, perhaps it could be beneficial. It may be that Soulyss and Guppy will be alight with righteous wrath and come duel me for their honor. I do so love duels.
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^wierdo^
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
[Cringe.] You are addressing some of the best P-38 fliers in this game...
I'm gonna pretend that i'm included in that :lol
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I have no idea. Stop by Blue Sky and I'll find out.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
It may be that Soulyss and Guppy will be alight with righteous wrath and come duel me for their honor. I do so love duels.
Hey Dan! Someone thinks we might be good!
:lol
:D
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you guys leaving all of those FREE P38 parts laying around is starting to pay off !:D
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
[Cringe.] You are addressing some of the best P-38 fliers in this game. Invoking my name before them like the name of an apostle just makes me look foolish. Or is that your intention? Of course, perhaps it could be beneficial. It may be that Soulyss and Guppy will be alight with righteous wrath and come duel me for their honor. I do so love duels.
LOL, my 38 is usually alight, there is no question on that. :)
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Originally posted by Soulyss
Hey Dan! Someone thinks we might be good!
:lol
:D
Proof that if you talk about flying the 38 enough, folks might believe you know what you are doing. Ahh to have them all fooled as we do :)
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Yes, it worked for me. So are you guys going to come visit me in Blue Sky sometime?
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LOL i JUST figured out what BLue Sky is.... DUH
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Yes, it worked for me. So are you guys going to come visit me in Blue Sky sometime?
I don't check out the H2H rooms very often, but if the MA's and the AvA are devoid of any good fights I'll swing by and you can kick me around for a bit.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
[Cringe.] You are addressing some of the best P-38 fliers in this game. Invoking my name before them like the name of an apostle just makes me look foolish. Or is that your intention? Of course, perhaps it could be beneficial. It may be that Soulyss and Guppy will be alight with righteous wrath and come duel me for their honor. I do so love duels.
Benny wtf.:huh Someone trainslate. Dude u ARE a very good P38 pilot. If ur saying ur not good ur lying to urself.
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Oh, I'm quite good. I've no false humility. But a couple of the guys here have been doing this twice as long as I have and could make me feel small and humble if they so chose.
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Clerick's good to fly with. I make a mighty good decoy for him. I'd love to learn how to fly a 38 but all I've been able to figure out is BnZ. Not my style. Now if it could turn fight with a spitty.............
Why doesn't cutting one engine help you turn faster? It seem that all the power on one side would sling it around like a tt-dancer on a pole. I've tried and it seems odd that nothing ridiculous happens. Was there any protocol for this in the actual P38 flight manuals? I've done the hammerhead thing and it works real nice. Why wouldn't it work in the horizontal plane? Is it because the engines are so close together? Would this work differently in a Mossie?
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Thanks Einhorn... er bubba.... er....
But to answer the question the engine is still pretty close to the centerline of the plane and i would assume that there isnt enough of a moment applied by single engine operation to REALLY override the opposite moments applied by the vertical stabalizers. If you fly a 38 straight with only one engine you'll see that it does yaw to the opposite direction but ever so slightly and this affect seems to become more pronounced the slower you are going, again i would assume that this is due to the airflow over the vertical control surfaces slows down enough that the forces countering the prop arent as large.
Try running up one engine on a stationary 38 and you will see a pronounced yaw, but as your speed increases it becomes less and less.
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Yes, and that's how it was in reality. Pilots said that it flew fine on one engine, but it became increasingly more difficult the lower the speed and taxiing it on one engine was quite impossible.
As I said, torque can help an airplane turn, but power helps an airplane turn more than torque, so the addition of torque doesn't come close to making up for halving your power.
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Originally posted by Bubbajj
Why doesn't cutting one engine help you turn faster? It seem that all the power on one side would sling it around like a tt-dancer on a pole. I've tried and it seems odd that nothing ridiculous happens. Was there any protocol for this in the actual P38 flight manuals? I've done the hammerhead thing and it works real nice. Why wouldn't it work in the horizontal plane? Is it because the engines are so close together? Would this work differently in a Mossie?
It has to do with what is the dominate force on your airframe at a given moment. If you are in controlled flight, lift is the dominate force. Single engine power will affect the intensity of the yaw and roll forces on your plane, but it won't give a pronounced effect while the lift force is acting on your mass.
Hence why it is so pronounced in a spin, or taxiing. The off center thrust becomes the domninate force. With a hammerhead, its the same thing. As you near and cross into stall conditions, the asemetric thrust becomes the dominate force.
In theory, yes making a left hand turn with your thrust line right of center would help you turn to the left better. But without full thrust from the other engine, you are losing out on the thrust to drag and power to weight ratio. At your max sustained turn rate, your thrust and drag are roughly equal. Lower your thrust, and you lower your sustained rate of turn. In short any possible benifit is negated by the effects of reduced thrust.
On the other hand, it is possible to do some neat things with it, but it usually involves having a stall condition somewhere on your foils, and it is usually a 1/2-2 second action, not sustained.