Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CAP1 on June 01, 2007, 04:19:33 PM
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i think i might be another to beat a dead horse here, but something struck me last night(besides bullets in my plane). when i have a co-alt merge, or only a slight alt advantage, i try to set myself up in such a way that if neither myself or the bogie turns, i'd fly right by him. plan being to turn into him and possibly get a nice side shot as he goes by(with me already heading close to his heading) or hope he makes a turn giving me a nice big profile to shoot at(not worked too often, but one can hope).
the problem is though, that obviously if i see him, he most likely sees me. here comes the dead horse!! when he sees me, he turns directly at me. if i have time, i try to re-orient myself, especially if i have altitude. once again, he turns directly at me. this happens a lot, and unless i get really lucky or fly away(which is hard sometimes as i'm mostly in slower planes)i now end up in a head on situation. if/when this happens, and i feel i can't avoid it, i then try to dive under him, pulling hard verticle at about 800 out...figuring that by the time the plane responds, he'll be just past me as i go up. again though, more ofen than not, he now doves directly at me. i've been hit this way, i've been ho'd this way. now before i get all the usual answers, this is NOT a complaint.......all i'm looking for is advice from the vets in here. what do you do when this happens? i mean, it seems nuts that so many pilots fly directly at their opponents, rather than trying to set themselves up a shot or nice fight, doesn't it? so, all you experienced guys and gals.......can i(and any other moderate to poor pilots reading this) get some pointers/tips/advice on what to do when this happens? i don't mind losing fights(happens a LOT), but i'd at least like to
HAVE a fight.
thanks everybody!!
john
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Are you asking how to avoid the HO? I cant hit anyone in the situations that you describe.
In any case, I always try to come in kind of sideways leting them turn on my six. Its the only way to ensure that they will try to fight. I always try to stay in a shalow turn so the speeds stay up. When they are 600 on my 6, cut throtle, roll, and hopefully they ar in front of you.
Does not work with vets since they cut throtle too, lol
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CAP1/John
what your opponents are doing/trying to do is take away your angles advantage, now most will not even know this is what they are doing, most are indeed possibly going for a Head On merge and possible Head On shot......
doing things as barrel rolls / twisting roll while shallow diving off below and to the side ( left or right ) should keep you from getting hit, when you are setting up something as you described about angling below then pulling up while 800 out, means you are trying to set up for a lead turn. This is where you are wanting to be somewhere near perpendicular to their flight path at about the time each of you cross. If not actually acquiring their relative low 6, 7 or 5 coming thru the latter part of your lead turn......
visit http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/ for the Aces High trainers Website
and also http://www.netaces.org Hammer's personal website and read up on lead turns & merge tactics....
then get you a Training Partner and practice til exhausted on approaching with different lead turns from different angles....to try and master the exact distance out to start your seperation both in the horizontal and vertical to acquire the perfect leadturn....without seperation 1st, then the rest will not come out to well.
The opponents you have mentioned above, are taking away your seperation ( read that as angles advantage )
hope this helps
~S~
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Try to start manuvering at about 1.5 out. Start out with slow turns left and right. As the bogey get closer he will be forced to manuver his plane harder than you to keep his nose pointed at you thus bleeding his E state relative to yours. Once he is within around 800 or so a hard break turn will throw him off on the merge and you wont get shot in a HO. Keep your eye on the bogey as he passes and WAIT for him to make a move to re-engage. Once you see where he is trying to go you then can make your own move to counter, generaly with a higher E state than your enemy.
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hhmm......good ideas........i didn't realize i was trying to do a lead turn...i've just been trying to find something that works for me. TC...i will visit htose websites for the info too.....but then you trainer guys are gonna see me in tA again, begging for help confused
hornet...i can give that a try as i never thought of that before.........but again, it seems as if when i wait, i die.......real quick.........hhmm...wonder if someone's trytin to make an easy kill?:noid
just kiddin...i do appreciate all and any advice you all give!!
dedalos.....the idea of letting a bogie on my 6...i can't do that as its easy enough most of the time....i'd like to at least fight for a few seconds.....:rofl
thanks guys!
john
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here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/301_1171405374_roospit_vs_lambo.zip)
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You need to maintain seperation at the merge. Unless I'm planing on taking the HO shot I'll often turn away from the approaching opponent momentarily to gain seperation (sometimes almost perpendicular to his flight path) then roll back into him in lag pursuit to maintain E, hoping to begin that turn ~800 out. This forces him to pull hard to stay with you and bleeds a lot of E from him.
If that fails I'll push the nose under him from ~800 out to take away the HO, continue to dive for a second or two while turning then pull back up either into a loop or a high yo-yo, usually out of plane with our initial merge (again, sometimes as much as 90 degrees). Since I know which side he'll be approaching from and he's usually lost sight of me turning underneath him it puts me in the drivers seat at least for a while.
There's probably better moves but these are couple that I've found work for me pretty often.
Beware on that first move though. If he doesn't bite trying to pull lead on you then he's probably a better stick going for lag pusuit and you're likely in for a classic turn fight.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Are you asking how to avoid the HO? I cant hit anyone in the situations that you describe.
In any case, I always try to come in kind of sideways leting them turn on my six. Its the only way to ensure that they will try to fight. I always try to stay in a shalow turn so the speeds stay up. When they are 600 on my 6, cut throtle, roll, and hopefully they ar in front of you.
Does not work with vets since they cut throtle too, lol
this is what I generally do... if I suspect a good stick, I try to set up something else, but I can't really describe any of that stuff in a coherent manner.
If you want to get them to fight, and don't want to HO, give them your 6, or at least a wing.
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/301_1171405374_roospit_vs_lambo.zip)
thanks....it was interesting, and i'll be watching it again from different perspectives....one question though...when you were looking foward/up, ya kept kinda "rockin" back and forth...is this for a reason? i mean it was very rapid.....just curious.......
john
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Yup as ded said..bait em.
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Originally posted by CAP1
thanks....it was interesting, and i'll be watching it again from different perspectives....one question though...when you were looking foward/up, ya kept kinda "rockin" back and forth...is this for a reason? i mean it was very rapid.....just curious.......
john
i was bleeding Energy probably at that point to pull him into a off angle so he wouldnt have the shot . its also a move i do to get guys to overshoot and or lose Energy fast . remember a spit 9 has maintain more energy then a spit 5 ,once you get him to fight the spit 5's fight the spit 9 ussually falls into the Trap .
now if it was at the top of that second loop at the merge , i was on the edge of stall and trying to force my nose down just enough to regain flight ( i stalled it hard there ) that was really risky to go double loop in a spit 5 But i just barly had the energy to pull it off .
I have a tendency to rudder kick or snap turn to get into a off angle when guys jump me from above, 6 oc , ect .. its a natural reaction .. make it look like they may have the shot but if they follow they will be blacked out or compressed . The experinced guys will see this though a bleed off there speed as they come in though .. so it doesnt always work . see Dedalos post
I like that film because theres alot of great maneuvers in it performed by bolth of us . win or lose that was a great one .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/301_1171405374_roospit_vs_lambo.zip)
Dang, I couldn't open it
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/301_1171405374_roospit_vs_lambo.zip)
Rosco, I tried to watch that with the recorded views on. I almost threw up by the second merge. What the heck?
texasmom you need the AH film viewer.
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Originally posted by CAP1
dedalos.....the idea of letting a bogie on my 6...i can't do that as its easy enough most of the time....i'd like to at least fight for a few seconds.....:rofl
thanks guys!
john
Well, its different when you let them there for a second or two, and when they get there them selfs ;)
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
i was bleeding Energy probably at that point to pull him into a off angle so he wouldnt have the shot . its also a move i do to get guys to overshoot and or lose Energy fast . remember a spit 9 has maintain more energy then a spit 5 ,once you get him to fight the spit 5's fight the spit 9 ussually falls into the Trap .
now if it was at the top of that second loop at the merge , i was on the edge of stall and trying to force my nose down just enough to regain flight ( i stalled it hard there ) that was really risky to go double loop in a spit 5 But i just barly had the energy to pull it off .
I have a tendency to rudder kick or snap turn to get into a off angle when guys jump me from above, 6 oc , ect .. its a natural reaction .. make it look like they may have the shot but if they follow they will be blacked out or compressed . The experinced guys will see this though a bleed off there speed as they come in though .. so it doesnt always work . see Dedalos post
I like that film because theres alot of great maneuvers in it performed by bolth of us . win or lose that was a great one .
yes, it was absolutley a great fight..i wasn't meaning to critize or take away from that fact..i was simply trying tounderstand it a bit better.........:aok
thanks again!!
john
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/301_1171405374_roospit_vs_lambo.zip)
Thx for the film Rosco, I always forget to turn it on. Funny thing though, that fight with you still sticks out in my mind. Was a real stick gripper.
Lambo
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First, I think a better understand of what your trying to accomplish and why may be needed. What you are trying to do by ultimately refusing the Head-On engagement is gain separation from the bandit so as to acquire the necessary turning room between you and the bandit, so that as you merge, you can Lead Turn around him and onto his 6.
If you change your heading left or right, off of the Head-On aspect, this is trying to gain 'lateral' separation. Seeing this the natural instinct of any bandit -- often with knowing why -- is to turn back towards you to recreate the pure Head-On merge, and thus deny separation until you acutally pass each other, usually with someone getting a face full.
If you try to dive under him you are going for 'vertical' separation, which is the better choice. However, do it too soon (which may be your problem) and/or stay straight on your same heading as you do it, and he can possibly follow your movement downward long enough by going nose-down himself, to shoot you before you pass under.
Anticipation and timing in properly avoiding the HO and setting up for a Lead Turn is everything. Appear to offer the level Head-On engagement at first, keeping your speed well up (you will bleed some off as necessary in a few moments). Do everything to make him think you are a HO monkey looking for a free, ripe banana. Just before or as you reach 1000 ft. range from him, dive for about 500+ ft. of separation. You may not get that much, and you don't want to dive too steeply. Remember range will close extremely fast in the Head-On so don't be late. 1000 ft. is a guesstimate where most HO dweebs just start to fire.
As he is thinking "Shoot! Shoot!" to himself, he will no doubt push is nose down to stay on track and fire a burst. Most likely your surprise move, done at the right moment, will not allow him to fully counter the dive or recover a good tracking shot, even if you stay straight in your dive.
However, as EXACT timing is sometimes a problem (the bandit doesn't always cooperation waiting to shoot when you think he should) I usually put in a little jink in my flight path as I dive and approach. Just the smallest bit of bank angle and/or rudder wiggle just to bring me a couple of degrees off that straight on heading, but still in the same basic flight path. This causes him to further shift his nose in yet another dimension to stay on me, while I pass underneath. Very difficult.
After I dive, I watch the bandit until I see the range flash to about 400 ft. then I pull up hard the instant before we pass, into a loop (either an Immelmann or Pitchback, depending on what he does) before he can react, thus gaining the 'Lead Turn' advantage on him.
What happens to him is, he so focuses on getting that HO shot, even diving to stay on me as I go under him, that two things result.
1. He GAINS airspeed in his dive (as I do unless I've carefully managed the throttle as I should) which means he cannot do as tight a turn at the same moment as I can without first bleeding some airspeed and,
2. He so concentrates for the HO shot that he doesn't plan ahead nor react quickly to starting a Lead Turn of his own until I am well into mine.
Now, if going straight and true directly under him (or doing it too early) still gives him too much of a fair shot as he counter-dives, I suggest instead of the little heading jink I mentioned before, pull up and over into a half or even full barrel roll as you approach him.
Don't do a tight aileron spin right in front of his guns, but a small diameter roll-around his Plane of Motion. I guarantee he cannot follow that for a shot. As you finish the roll you should be passing him and you then pull around on his 6 as before.
The additional advantage of adding the barrel roll is it reduces your speed more quickly (so start the whole sequence with good speed) just before you go into the Lead Turn. And in following you nose down, then up or maybe left or right for his shot as you roll, the bandit will even more not on-the-ball for a Lead Turn of his own. He may even lose relational orientation with you for a moment, and need to recover that before he decides his next move. Even nano-seconds are all to your advantage in the thinking battle of combat that is called OODA.
Early angles through deception, separation, speed management and Lead Turning can be gained on the bandit by this whole maneuver.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Well, its different when you let them there for a second or two, and when they get there them selfs ;)
the advantage of giving them your six is to let them see your heading a certian direction ..... now they think your going this way .... when in reality you time out when to turn and get outta the way as they shoot at the spot they think your heading to .
As this happens you can ussually aquire their six as they over shoot , or go into a maneuver that gains you the advantage .
now this takes awhile to learn and you have to get used to timing , speed and plane type /capabilitys.
Each time I died to guys like Lev , Ded,Slap, Wide,Nomak, ect ,,,, the list goes on and on... I learned that timing ... I also filmed and watched the other guys films ... eventually you learn from mistakes and find the tricks that work .
p,s, dont use my views use shift tab and padlock thats alot better .. i bang the views to get there direction , my speed , and referance points so quickly that my own views in a film can make me sick too .
"Thx for the film Rosco, I always forget to turn it on. Funny thing though, that fight with you still sticks out in my mind. Was a real stick gripper.
Lambo"
Yea that was a great fight ...I'm still musta been lucky as hell at the top of that dbl loop you should of had me then .
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CAP --
You've gotten a lot of great feedback, and a rockin' film, about your initial question. I remember how long it took to wrap my head around a lot of these concepts, and how long it took to get them in practice. Keep at it!
A lot of this info is pretty specific, about specific situations. Let me give you a simple one that can be used in almost every situation, that is easier to apply and still very effective.
Here's the concept: When flying to throw off tracking attackers, use more than one dimension for movements.
In flight lingo, that's "maneuvering out of plane." (Geometry plane, not aeronautic one.) When you do a break turn, don't stay flat...throw some vertical movement in too. When you loop, slide a little to one side, or throw in a roll element. In general, don't do just one movement at a time, move in a combination of the lateral, horizontal, and vertical.
Less experienced pilots will not cope well with this, and it may save your bacon -- and put you back in the drivers seat. And, more than once, I've done a lag roll or other evasive, revesed positions with the attacker without getting a good shot....but seen the enemy fly away, probably thinking they didnt want to tangle with someone who could do that.
(If only they knew....but I'll take it!)
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I guess I missed what he said he was flying..... regardless, it would be different with each plane you fight.
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this is GREAT!! i think the i've gotten more excellent suggestions from you guys(and gals?) than i oculd've hoped for. sloehand's epllanation makes a lot of sense......now i understand a bit better.......all aren't trying to Ho, but they simply want to NOT give me the room to do what i want(the dirty bastages:D ).
anyway, i gues i'm gonna die a LOT this tour as i try to learn these maneuvers!! oo yea..i die a lot anyway:rofl
thanks guys!!!!!
john
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Rosco, I tried to watch that with the recorded views on. I almost threw up by the second merge. What the heck?
texasmom you need the AH film viewer.
I've got it. I hosed it up by trying to open it instead of saving, closing all else, and then opening the saved file.
<--- shoulda been born blond