Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on June 04, 2007, 02:44:13 AM
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Just threw out the headline to remind you that it's not just the illegal aliens that are breaking the law and getting away with it. That is a whole 'nother subject...
Saturday afternoon one of my checkers walks over and asks if anyone just bought a bunch of empty water bottles. I told her I didn't know anything about it. She said a guy just went out the door with a cart full of them. I ran outside but he had already gone. I checked the video and had a perfect shot of him. I called the police to file a report for insurance and then thought to call my compeditor across town and tell them to be on the lookout for a guy trying to cash in a bunch of empties and gave her a description of the guy.
Before I was off the phone with the manager a cop arrived to get a report. We went into the office and watched the video as I copied it off for him. I got a page that I had an urgent call, it was the other manager saying the guy was in the store. The cop left to catch the thief and I felt that I had done my job well.
About an hour later the cop returns to pick up a witness statement I had to fill out. I asked what happened. What he told me next pulled the rug right out from under me. When he got to the other store the guy was caught loading more empties into his car. Unfortunately for me he had already ditched the bottles he stole from my store. The value of the bottles was under $50 so he was written a citation and released.
He will have to go to city court and pay a fine and it's all over. He gets to keep the goods he stole from us. I asked to file a criminal tresspass against him and they told me I couldn't because the officer did not see him at the store.
Bottom line? The city makes money off of this with fines and court costs. The guy walks free and my store takes it in the wazoo and can't keep him from coming back to do it again. He's probably going to send his crankhead girlfriend in to redeem them for deposit so they can screw me twice.
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I suppose that it is the principle of the thing, Right???
I understand...
OG
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If you mean the principal of the thing is that he walks away free with my property and the city profits from it, then yes.
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EXACTLY!!!
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rpm I'm not fully grasping what happened. So the guy came to your store with empty bottles and you take them and pay the depositor. But he walked out with the money and the bottles?
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Originally posted by RightF00T
rpm I'm not fully grasping what happened. So the guy came to your store with empty bottles and you take them and pay the depositor. But he walked out with the money and the bottles?
He walked in, stole the water bottles and left.
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Saturday afternoon one of my checkers walks over and asks if anyone just bought a bunch of empty water bottles. I told her I didn't know anything about it. She said a guy just went out the door with a cart full of them. I ran outside but he had already gone. I checked the video and had a perfect shot of him. I called the police to file a report for insurance and then thought to call my compeditor across town and tell them to be on the lookout for a guy trying to cash in a bunch of empties and gave her a description of the guy.
Before I was off the phone with the manager a cop arrived to get a report. We went into the office and watched the video as I copied it off for him. I got a page that I had an urgent call, it was the other manager saying the guy was in the store. The cop left to catch the thief and I felt that I had done my job well.
About an hour later the cop returns to pick up a witness statement I had to fill out. I asked what happened. What he told me next pulled the rug right out from under me. When he got to the other store the guy was caught loading more empties into his car. Unfortunately for me he had already ditched the bottles he stole from my store. The value of the bottles was under $50 so he was written a citation and released.
He will have to go to city court and pay a fine and it's all over. He gets to keep the goods he stole from us. I asked to file a criminal tresspass against him and they told me I couldn't because the officer did not see him at the store.
Bottom line? The city makes money off of this with fines and court costs. The guy walks free and my store takes it in the wazoo and can't keep him from coming back to do it again. He's probably going to send his crankhead girlfriend in to redeem them for deposit so they can screw me twice. -rpm
i don't understand. you have insurance that covers pilferage/theft? you actually make an insurance claim for a theft under $50??? I never heard of that, although i admit i know very little about retail business. if you actually do make a claim for such a small amount, i would assume you are reimbursed, aren't you? would you also claim this loss on your tax return as well?
as far as the trespass warning is concerned, i believe your local police need to positively identify the person in order to warn them in such a way that a subsequent arrest for trespass after warning would hold up in court. that is just how it is...
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what is your time worth?
I'd laughed at the crime, as harmless as it was, then locked up the bottles better so it would not happen again.
btwn the cops, watching some video of some loser "stealing" your empty pop bottles, phone calls, more cop talk and then posting about it on this bbs, I'd thunk you'd you wasted more of your time going over the crime than the crime was actually worth ..
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The great water bottle heist of 2007.
Jessie was an amateur. :rofl
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The thing is, it may be a small thing, and its not the loss itself. Its the attitude of the guy to think he can waltz in and take, and get away with it.
I hate thieves. Next time follow him to where he boxes up at night, abduct him and seel him to China for his organs.
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Not only that, but think of the sense of violation. This guy is waltzing into an area he doesn't belong and swiping stuff. It's water bottles now, but it could have been anything. Someone walked in the back door of one of our restaurants last year and took someone's purse off the table and ran off, for example.
It's an outrage, and some of y'all are pretty loose with his property loss. Should he just lie back and enjoy it? Perhaps think of England?
Or is the lack of concern because the thief isn't part of the hispanic menace? The "illegals are killers!!11!!!1!eleventy!" crowd seems to have had their hand on the rudder here lately.
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oh i know what it is to be a victim... :)
i had my much loved bicycle stolen... i spent hours riding around crack-town looking for anybody in possession of my bike before i realised how crazy it was... and i thank heaven i didn't actually find somebody on my bike. they would have received a little more than misdemeanor level punishement from me -
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RPM,
I am not making light of the situation but what more were you expecting? Your staff (and you as well) missed stopping the crime when it happened when you could have recovered your property and had the guy arrested at the same time. He got away from you first and had the opportunity to stash the property. Even had you stopped him then he would have just gotten the same ticket for shoplifting.
Now that he's gotten away from your store with the property what did you expect the cops to do, flog him? They are limited by what the law mandates for a petty theft from a business (shoplifting) and can't just go out and do something else because you are pissed at him. They did what they are allowed to do and actually made an arrest. The "justice" of the penalty situation is out of their hands as well.
Can you post pix of the guy in the store so your staff can recognize him if he comes back?
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The police cant arrest, as in take to jail, people for misdemeanors not committed in their presence.... DUI being the only exception. Even if you or your staff had stopped the suspect 'red handed', it would be one of you making a citizens arrest.
So the officer did the next best thing, took a report and issued him a misdemeanor citation, for which he'll go to court and be held accountable. If hes got priors or is on probation / parole he could be screwed.
My dept wouldn't bother with $50 capers generally, we gave out a carbon copy "log report" to document the loss, and that's it.
It could have been a felony if:
The officer could have shown suspect entered your store with $0.00, the value was $400+ (some states vary), or the suspect had at least three prior petty theft convictions.
If the suspect had numerous brand new items on him and no receipt, a creative officer could have taken the guy for felony receiving / possession of stolen property... then been laughed at for making a $50 felony arrest.
Edit: BTW for a trespass, the suspect needs to be told to leave, then refuse... or be advised that hes PNG, then returns. If no police officer is around to witness either of the above, it's you or a staff member that witnesses the misdemeanor and makes a citizens arrest.
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Criminal court system is not set up for you to recover your financial loss in this type of situation. That is what civil court system is for & I am pretty sure you have that option if you are so inclined.
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Even if it was a single stick of Bazooka Bubble Gum, you should prosecute. Theft is theft.
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This post is not about his store having a shoplifter. It's a leftist nutjob's attempt to somehow justify illegals coming into our country. You have to understand RPM's insane view on things to grasp this.
Since a white guy doesn't go to jail for shoplifting, hispanic people should be allowed to cross the border and live here, all the while soaking up resources that should go to legal citizens.
Heck, maybe if the illegals weren't sucking us dry, we'd have enough money to get the white shoplifter into rehab and get him on the road to recovery. Ohhhh... what a novel help those who are actually citizens.
:aok
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Is there a gas leak in here?
:D
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I think Chairboy is one of the few that gets it. The guy is a thief, plain and simple. He is a repeat offender (stole from me and then my compeditor) and he doesn't go to jail. $50 bucks from me, $50 bucks from the store across town, $50 from each of the stores in the next town and so on...
I see how you find it cute that a thief can steal and get away with it. Somewhere along the way the meaning of "conservative" and "liberal" got switched. You guys are about as liberal as it gets when you want to support theft over working for a living. That's the ultimate welfare.
The government also makes money from this guy stealing when he pays his ticket. Theif makes money, government makes money, honest business loses money. That's OK, we'll just raise the price of all the goods to cover our losses. Trust me, my boss won't be the one that loses money, he'll take it out on the consumer.
Mav, trust me if I had seen the guy, I would have made a "citizens arrest" and I would have sworn he was resisting.
VOR, I did want to procecute. All the police did was write him a ticket and let him go.
Steve, you haven't got a clue what my view is on immigration. You only have some tinfoil hat delusion of what you think my views are.
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This post is not about his store having a shoplifter. It's a leftist nutjob's attempt to somehow justify illegals coming into our country. You have to understand RPM's insane view on things to grasp this.
Since a white guy doesn't go to jail for shoplifting, hispanic people should be allowed to cross the border and live here, all the while soaking up resources that should go to legal citizens.
Heck, maybe if the illegals weren't sucking us dry, we'd have enough money to get the white shoplifter into rehab and get him on the road to recovery. Ohhhh... what a novel help those who are actually citizens. - Steve
What a fine example of a cogent, incisive post. wtg Steve. :)
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i don't understand. you have insurance that covers pilferage/theft? you actually make an insurance claim for a theft under $50??? I never heard of that, although i admit i know very little about retail business. if you actually do make a claim for such a small amount, i would assume you are reimbursed, aren't you? would you also claim this loss on your tax return as well?
Perhaps I should not have said it was for insurance. I have to file a police report for any theft. If it's large enough to claim on insurance we will, otherwise it's written off taxes as shrinkage.
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that makes more sense, rpm. i know pilferage is part of the cost of doing business - and we all pay for it - except for the occasional Bazooka Bubble Gum
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Originally posted by BigGun
Criminal court system is not set up for you to recover your financial loss in this type of situation. That is what civil court system is for & I am pretty sure you have that option if you are so inclined.
I beg to differ, i had a kenworth truck and someone broke out most of the windows when it was parked overnite at a friends truckstop.(worked as mechanic there) and one of the waitresses seen who did it and told me the next day.
i contacted the police and they talked to her then confronted the person who admitted he did it (ex wifes BF) he was cited and went to criminal court, the court gave him 45 days in jail and made him pay resitution which he paid in full, $742 worth of glass
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I wasn't saying you did the wrong thing, RPM. I was saying you did the right thing. The city dropped the ball after you tossed it right into their jersey numbers.
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RPM why start a thread titled ... Legal White Male Steals From Me & Walks, may i ask what your ethnic background is ?
Sounds alittle racial to me, Illegals are just that illegally in this counrty and are a great cause of our economic problems as well as the employers who hire them knowing they are.
I dont care what color you are or race, if you are legally entilted to live here then you have all the legal entitlements granted under our constitution, if your illegally here you have no rights under our constitution period.
In short stealing is stealing and i hope you get some compensation and the perp gets whats comming to him, illegal or legal makes no difference
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There are scumbags of all races. The illegal aliens (every one of them) have already shown their contempt for laws, therefore 100% of illegals are scumbags. Just by being here they demonstrate the ability and willingness to break at least 4 of our laws before we move into the welfare fraud and identity theft realm. What percentage of "legal, whites" steal from you?
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Originally posted by rpm
Just threw out the headline to remind you that it's not just the illegal aliens that are breaking the law and getting away with it. That is a whole 'nother subject...
Try reading the very first line I wrote. Does it matter what race I am? Do you belong to a secret club where it does?
VOR, sorry. I missread your post. :)
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
What percentage of "legal, whites" steal from you?
Most of the large thefts we have are by "legal, whites". Most of the petty theft (<$10)is hispanic.
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rpm, how in the heck do you know that mostly hispanics are stealing the items under $10? do you survey the thieves as they leave the store ???(presumablely with burritos and nachos stuffed in their pockets?) i hope you aren't making a racist assumption here ;)
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Originally posted by rpm
VOR, I did want to procecute. All the police did was write him a ticket and let him go.
A cite is equal to a "feild booking", this person will have a misd arrest on their record and will go to court to face the exact same charges as if he'd been arrested. Most police Depts don't have the time / resources to take every $50 criminal to a jail cell.
Even if you had made a citizens arrest, the dude would probably still been given a cite.
If you're adamant about it, call the dept and ask for the detective handling the case and be sure to let him/her know you absolutely demand prosecution. Find out who the city attorney / DDA will be and call him / her too... these people work for you
If you don't call, this case will be one of a dozen or so manila folders on the dets desk the s/he'll shuffle out the door without a 2nd thought... letting him / her know you really care might motivate the Det to do some follow up.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
rpm, how in the heck do you know that mostly hispanics are stealing the items under $10? do you survey the thieves as they leave the store ???(presumablely with burritos and nachos stuffed in their pockets?) i hope you aren't making a racist assumption here ;)
How the heck do you think? I catch them. I have surveilance and see a lot more that I miss watching replay. I never said they were stealing burritos, you made that racial assumption.
Most of what I see hispanics stealing is candy, small foods, cosmetics and feminine products. Most of what I have seen anglos steal is large quanities of meat, forged checks, gasoline and robbery.
xM, we're a town of 5,000. I pulled him off working the speed trap. The city Judge, Mayor and Chief of Police are all customers on a first name basis.
What really eats at me is the guy is not seen as a threat by anyone. He's a harmless thief. If the guy had been carrying a joint in his pocket, he would have been a public threat and thrown in jail no questions asked. It just makes no sense to me. We have our priorities all screwed up.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
There are scumbags of all races. The illegal aliens (every one of them) have already shown their contempt for laws, therefore 100% of illegals are scumbags. Just by being here they demonstrate the ability and willingness to break at least 4 of our laws before we move into the welfare fraud and identity theft realm. What percentage of "legal, whites" steal from you?
Many of them are only doing what you or me would have done in the same situation. They do what they can to get themselves and their family to a better place were they may find an income and a higher standard of living and put food on the table. Just becuause you were lucky and born on the better side of the border does not make you a superior beeing. ;)
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Nilsen's right. Earning it is for suckahs!
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Nilsen's obviously never heard of one Navin R. Johnson.
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hmm, well i come from a family that i am completly detached from, most of them are recovering meth addicts, frankly they have stolen a lot and sold it... for drugs, and they are legal whites,
i caught a group of legal hispanics breaking into my car, and they out ran me.
i was mugged by a group of legal hispanics as well.
and i work with a group of honest diverse people...
i dont think race has anything to do with it... people can steal and its just not right.
adding the illegal part to it just spices up the the whole issue, and also adds a lot of fuel to the fire.
illegal immigration is an issue that needs some serious work. deportation isn't working. lots of other things aren't working either.
im ignorant to the issue so i dont want to act like i know what im talking about. but i do know that i hate getting stuff stolen from me. im only 21 so i have a long time to get stuff taken from me.
-Gristle
:noid
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RPM,
What charge do you think he should have been arrested for? After you state what he should have been arrested for let us in on what you think is a fair penalty.
The Police are limited by what the statute states. A petty theft of merchandise from a store is shoplifting, if it's for sale, or just petty theft if it's anything else owned by the store / employees and less than a set value of say $500.00 for example. As such, the statute the individual is arrested under gives what happens next, an arrest. The criminal code stipulates that the arrest can be affected by incustody arrest with booking at jail or a field release after the suspect signs a promise to appear on a criminal citation. Both of these amount to the same thing except one takes far less time and paperwork to do. Stolen property in possession of the thief may be held as evidence or photgraphed and returned to the owner depending on what it is and current procedures. In your case he didn't have it with him at the time of arrest. No judge is going to issue a warrant for the guys house on a petty theft.
IF the Officer should decide to book the individual he would almost certainly been released on his own recognizance by the jail right after booking. Why? Because of crowding at the facility and the need to hold far more dangerous folks for more serious crimes. Unless this guy has an outstanding warrant the jail would not have held him.
So I ask again, what did you expect to happen to this guy????
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Mav, I think the penalty should have been just as severe as if he had been caught with a joint in his pocket. Go to jail, get booked. Let a judge decide what happens next.
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I guess you have never heard of the personal use situation with a joint. Unless there is some overiding major issue, a joint won't get you jail either. At most it will be a ticket, again. Most likely it won't be anything or the joint gets shredded.
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i guess the police should have beat him up, arrested him and taken him to jail and charged him with "being a legal white guy while in rpm's store."
j/k rpm :)
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Originally posted by Gristle
hmm, well i come from a family that i am completly detached from, most of
illegal immigration is an issue that needs some serious work. deportation isn't working. lots of other things aren't working either.
-Gristle
:noid
Ummm, we aren't deporting anyone in any kind of significant numbers or it would be working.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Is there a gas leak in here?
:D
:D
this whole lurker thing is turning out to be more entertaining than i had previously imagined.
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Not going to touch the ethnic stuff, but...
As far as the theif goes, I think many here are making light of the shoplifter. No, its not murder, but shoplifters steal tons of stuff each year from a lot of stores. It makes us all pay higher prices, its unfair to the stores that are trying to make an honest living, and it should piss us all off.
Just thought I would point that out.
Sound like the police did what they could under the circumstances, but im surprised you couldnt get a "no go" for say a year on the guy, if he was caught on camera. Maybe next time, just keep an eye out for him.
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Originally posted by 68ZooM
RPM why start a thread titled ... Legal White Male Steals From Me & Walks, may i ask what your ethnic background is ?
Sounds alittle racial to me, Illegals are just that illegally in this counrty and are a great cause of our economic problems as well as the employers who hire them knowing they are.
I dont care what color you are or race, if you are legally entilted to live here then you have all the legal entitlements granted under our constitution, if your illegally here you have no rights under our constitution period.
In short stealing is stealing and i hope you get some compensation and the perp gets whats comming to him, illegal or legal makes no difference
from what i have gathered, RPM is one of the more moderate voices with regards to illegals and race. you may be reading too much into it on that count.
just sayin.
;)
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Hello RPM,
I'm sorry about your loss both in terms of time and money, and I can certainly sympathize with your frustration over being able to do nothing about it.
This past December my wife's purse was stolen and aside from the immediate loss of the cash in it, we had to deal with the fraudulent use of the credit cards including several attempts to use them and my identity to obtain goods over the internet. We've also detected two attempts to establish new lines of credit, one in my wife's name and one attempt at establishing a corporate account with a company in Colorado in the name of our church if you can believe it. Although my wife saw the woman who took her purse, we have not been able to do anything about it. We also suffered a $300 loss recently with a company that took our money, never delivered our goods, repeatedly told us "the items were on their way," then went out of business and disappeared from sight. I was told that tracking them down would take more effort than the money was worth. Then just this morning our credit report was dinged by a collection agency for a debt we paid off with the company that sold the debt a year ago. The original company acknowledges we paid it off, but because someone recorded my name as "Angela Webb" a letter to the collection agency proving that "Andrew Webb" paid off his debt was apparently ignored. I list these things not to complain, but merely to point out that justice in the matter of mammon is hard to come by on this side of heaven and that as Thomas Fuller observed long ago "Riches are long in getting with much pains, hard in keeping with much care, quick in losing with more sorrow."
All of this helps me to remember that the things I have are only so much dust and that I will some day part with all of them (as Fuller also said: "Riches may leave us while we live, we must leave them when we die.") and that to make them the center of my concerns will only cause me great bitterness and in a way reflect the self-destructive covetousness of the very people who would steal them from me - certainly I don't want my real treasure and therefore my heart to be in my wallet. If I needed any reminders of that fact, the number of senseless arguments over money I see in marriage counseling would be enough of a reminder. The only value these things have lies in what good we use them for anyway. So when it comes to mammon, hold on loosely and don't allow your fiscal circumstances (good or bad) to rule your life or become a root of bitterness.
Just one question related to your original post, though. I'm wondering what you wanted to happen - people to stop being so concerned about illegal immigration because all races commit theft and fraud or for some sort of change in the legal system in your area or something else I'm missing completely?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by JB88
from what i have gathered, RPM is one of the more moderate voices with regards to illegals and race. you may be reading too much into it on that count.
just sayin.
;)
Well i hope I'm not reading to much into it BUT with a title like that makes me wonder, It should of been titled....Male Steals From Me & Walks
Agreed?:aok
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Just one question related to your original post, though. I'm wondering what you wanted to happen - people to stop being so concerned about illegal immigration because all races commit theft and fraud or for some sort of change in the legal system in your area or something else I'm missing completely?
- SEAGOON
That may be a bit of a straw man argument. RPM seems to have noticed, as I have, that recently the trend on this board has been to lay blame for most domestic problems at the feet of illegal immigrants.
This type of overgeneralization does little to solve the problem, but there has been a tacit acceptance here of exactly that. Of interest, the only folks getting dinged here are the ones who say "maybe not all crime is from illegal immigrants". If this is a dichotomy with which you're comfortable, Seagoon, then I encourage you to take a step back and re-examine the situation.
Historically, almost every time a small group is singled out and blamed for all of society's problems by a larger group, terrible things eventually happen.
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Seagoon,
I understand the trials and tribulations of dealing with the public. I (my store that I am entrusted and responsable for) get pilfered daily. It's part of business, life goes on. It's the apparent total lack of concern by law enforcement to punish, of all things, a thief.
Had the same person been committing a consentual crime that caused no one any harm he would have been taken very seriously and placed in jail. I used the joint scenario to illustrate my point. True, in some states they will write you a citation and let you go. Here, in my little corner of paradise they aren't as openminded about social reform. It's law enforcement on parade along with photos in the local paper. Priorities...
I thought the title and the first line of this post were self explanitory, but maybe the irony was lost somewhere along the way. Immigration is the current "axis of evil" on political display. Them danged 'meskins are the problem I tell ya! It's the fear flavor of the week for this election.
I grew up in the same town I live in today. It's a lot like the town in the movie Hud, small west texas hickville. There have always been a large group of illegal aliens working here. The "Westside" of town on the "other side of the tracks" is and always has been populated by these hispanics. I grew up, went to school and worked with hispanics.
They work the rock quarries, farms, dairys, and brick plant. Now most of them are working in oil field and construction. I watch them wire most of their paychecks to family in Mexico and Central America. They are very religious and polite. On the otherhand, there is a portion of their culture that is just as poorly behaved and educated as white trash. I have plenty of those too. The hispanics are just like us, good mixed with the bad.
I have mixed feelings on immigration. I don't want an open border, that's insane. In today's climate we need border security. What most don't understand is our southern border is not our major security problem. I'd like to see us button up and baton down our ports and borders. Expand the Coast Guard and Border Patrol. Give them the men and tools they need to do the job.
I have never had a problem with a person trying to better themselves or their family. If they are being a productive member of society minding their own business and are causing no problems other than an immigration violation, give them an opportunity to become citizens. They have shown a willingness to perform jobs that need to be done and nobody wants to do them. A society of Mike Rowes so to speak.
If they are not being a productive member of society and are breaking laws in addition to immigration. Revoke any opportunity for citizenship and expel them. With the increased border security I mentioned, hopefully there will be less of a chance he will walk into the US again. If we had spent 10% of what we have spent in Iraq "making America safer" beefing up our ports and borders and actually "made America safer" we wouldn't be having this discussion about immigration.
Once we have secure borders we can control immigration. Until then we have to make lemonade.
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Hello Chair,
Originally posted by Chairboy
That may be a bit of a straw man argument. RPM seems to have noticed, as I have, that recently the trend on this board has been to lay blame for most domestic problems at the feet of illegal immigrants.
This type of overgeneralization does little to solve the problem, but there has been a tacit acceptance here of exactly that. Of interest, the only folks getting dinged here are the ones who say "maybe not all crime is from illegal immigrants". If this is a dichotomy with which you're comfortable, Seagoon, then I encourage you to take a step back and re-examine the situation.
Historically, almost every time a small group is singled out and blamed for all of society's problems by a larger group, terrible things eventually happen.
Actually I wasn't trying to make a straw man argument, just trying to figure out what RPM was actually pressing for rather than making assumptions either way.
Personally, as an immigrant myself and a pastor with a Mexican American ruling elder and who is quite happy to see other Hispanic families join our congregation, I'm not inclined to make over-generalizations about Mexican/Central American illegal immigration and crime.
It seems to me that there are two arguments arguments against our overly porous southern border that are essentially unanswerable:
1) Our social welfare net is not able to cope with the demands placed on it by unrestricted illegal immigration: We have decided as a society that we want to be able to provide a variety of benefits including medical care, food, education, and even a subsistence income to those who otherwise would not have them. These services are paid for by the revenues from taxes levied on the income of legal resident individuals, families, and corporations. Currently the demands on these benefits (particularly in terms of medical care) made by illegal immigrants are greater than can be feasibly sustained without major increases in taxation. In several cities hospitals and in particular, emergency rooms, have already been forced to shut down thus impoverishing the entire community. One also has to remember that you tend to get more of what you pay for. Either we will have a comprehensive social welfare net or unrestricted immigration, but we cannot have both without bankrupting the economy. Mexico does not provide anywhere close to the level of benefits to its own citizens that they can freely obtain by crossing the border so part of the incentive for crossing the border is to obtain those benefits.
2) The fact that militant Islam is currently waging a Jihad against the nation: The various Muslim brotherhood affiliated Mujaheedin are very aware of the fact that if they cannot enter the country legally, they can cross the southern border illegally fairly easily. This is also the second most logical access point for any potential WMDs. Historically, most countries have realized that border control in a time of war is an absolute necessity (Hadrian's wall, and the Great Wall of China are enduring monuments to the fact this isn't a new idea), we seem however not to be grasping that simple concept. I have no doubt that we will suddenly get very serious about it when a terror cell competent enough not to include FBI informants in their membership actually pulls off a successful attack, but that is rather like beefing up lifeboat regulations after the Titanic sinks.
- SEAGOON