Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Bad31st on June 08, 2007, 02:43:07 AM
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It's been a number of years since my last build ~ probably 4 or 5 ~ and it's come time for a new machine...
I was hoping some of the community could give me their opinions on this machine I'm thinking of building.
https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=7041507&WishListTitle=AH+PC
I'm currently running @ the defaults in AH and would like to up those settings a little and pull good frame rates...
I'm not sure that I've got the correct memory for the board I've selected so if someone could double check that I'd appreciate it.
Also - how are the fan and heat sink that come with the Retail Conroe? Should I consider a "better" fan/heatsink? If so which one(s)?
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tried lookin, but got no list.
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Oops - I forgot to make the list public...try again please.
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if it were me, i would go with a different MOBO. not sure what your budget is, but i would go with one in the P5B, line, or P5N line.
vid card, it will run AH, i have the XFX brand GS in my sons comp. stay away from the 9x.xx series drivers, they are real buggy in Ah. if budget is not a concern, maybe look at the 8500, or 8600, cards.
RAM, i would recomend kingston, Crucial,, or G-Skils.
case, i prefer a mid or full tower case, but that one should work, however, i would definately get a different power supply. typically with combos like that you get a pretty crappy PSU. hard to recommend one, there are so many that will work. look at Antec, Ultra, OCZ, just to name a few.
CPU, good choice, the stock HSF should be sufficient for normal use. however if you are going to be doing any over-clocking, it would be a goo idea to get an after market cooler. also, not sure what kind of hurry you are in, but intel is dropping prices on the C2Ds on july 22.pretty significant from what ive read.
hope this helps:aok
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oh, i recently found this site, xpcgear.com, now dont get me wrong, i love Newegg. but i saved some money with these guys. might be worth checking out.
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Last time I bought system I comparison shopped between newegg and Mwave.
Newegg saved me 6 $ on the memory, but cost 12 $ more for mboard/cpu and charged 10 $ more in shipping.
Mwave has always treated me very fair, if there was a problem they bent over backwards to fix it. So I keep giving them my business.
Before you buy is the the time to research research research.
Every hour you spend now can save you days later tinkering with a system that won't run, doesn't run right, etc.
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Bad31st,
I just did a quick new PC build list to see what I could come up with in comparison to yours. You picked an outdated videcard ( 128 bit GDDR2 vid memory ) and you picked an 8mb cache HD. As to where I opted a little more for better videocard ( 256 meg GDDR3 256bit ) and same size HD except 16meg cache, also I picked PC6400 memory over the 5300 you picked.
The case I picked has 500 watt PSU vs the one you picked has 420 watt PSU...
my quick list is roughly 96.00 more than your list. Except I feel like I have chosen far superior items, ......( also the Athlon 5600 X@ is 2.8 ghz processor and it easily overclocks and still runs cool ) Alot of people really pushing them Intel Core 2 Duo processors, but you need to get up in the 6600 area before they overtake the AMD X2 Athlon chips ( 5200 / 5600 ) and then the performance is still close except the Intel is far more expensive and they run hotter... ( my personal opinion )
I hope this helps, you really do need to take 3 times as much time researching before you decide to buy........also look for things like viideocard ( min 3 yr warranty up to lifetime warranty), memory ( lifetime warranty), MB ( min 3 yr warranty up to lifetime warranty), Powersupply ( 2year to 3 year warranty).....
the warrantys really do come in handy years down the road......( main reason I always choose ASUS over most other products is because of 3 year warranty ) any memoery u pick should have lifetime replacement warranty.......some brands like EVGA and or BFG( and 1 or 2 others) have lifetime MB & Videocard replacement warrantys.....
My quick Newegg list 6 minutes throwed together:
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update
RAIDMAX SMILODON ATX-612WBP Black SECC STEEL ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: ATX-612WBP
Item #: N82E16811156062
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
Mail-in Rebate
$89.99 $89.99
Update
ASUS M2N-E Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 570 Ultra MCP ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #: M2N-E
Item #: N82E16813131022
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$104.99 -$10.00 Instant $94.99
Update
ASUS EAX1950PRO/HTDP/256M Radeon X1950PRO GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Model #: EAX1950PRO/HTDP/256M
Item #: N82E16814121031
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$154.99 $154.99
Update
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+ Windsor 2.8GHz Socket AM2 Processor Model ADA5600CZBOX - Retail
Model #: ADA5600CZBOX
Item #: N82E16819103771
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy
In Stock
$179.00 $179.00
Update
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ - Retail
Model #: F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
Item #: N82E16820231098
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$120.99 -$40.00 Instant $80.99
Update
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 (Perpendicular Recording) ST3250620AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: ST3250620AS
Item #: N82E16822148144
Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy
In Stock
$69.99 $69.99
Update
ASUS 18X DVD±R DVD Burner with 14X DVD-RAM Write and LightScribe Black PATA Model DRW-1814BL R - Retail
Model #: DRW-1814BL R
Item #: N82E16827135149
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$33.99 $33.99
Subtotal: $703.94
your newegg list you posted a link to:
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
1 APEVIA X-QPACK-BK/420 Black Aluminum 1.0 w/ ABS plastic front panel MicroATX Desktop Computer Case ATX 420W power supply Power Supply - Retail
Model #: X-QPACK-BK/420
Item #: N82E16811144161
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$89.99 -$10.00 Instant $79.99
1 ASUS P5L-MX LGA 775 Intel 945G Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: P5L-MX
Item #: N82E16813131041
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$76.99 $76.99
1 Open Box: ASUS EN7600GS SILENT/HTD/512M GeForce 7600GS 512MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - OEM
Model #: EN7600GS SILENT/512M
Item #: N82E16814121007R
Return Policy: Open Box Item Return Policy
In Stock
$95.99 $95.99
1 Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6420 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6420
Item #: N82E16819115016
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy
In Stock
$186.00 $186.00
1 PNY 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model D22GX53OPT - Retail
Model #: D22GX53OPT
Item #: N82E16820178134
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$69.99 $69.99
1 Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250820AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: ST3250820AS
Item #: N82E16822148142
Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy
In Stock
$66.99 $66.99
1 LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner included extra White bezel, with 12X DVD-RAM Write Black IDE Model LH-20A1P-186 - Retail
Model #: LH-20A1P-186
Item #: N82E16827106050
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
In Stock
$31.99 $31.99
Subtotal: $607.94
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TC, not sure where you are getting your data, but the Core 2 CPU's all run cooler (using much less power) than the equivalent AMD CPU, across the line,
And dollar for dollar the Core 2 family also outperforms the AMD CPU's. Virtually every benchmark site on the Internet verifies that. With the Allendale family Intel dropped the price and improvd performance again. With Penryn, they are going to do it again.
Right now, Intel is leading the price/performance war and probably will continue to do so for some time. I know there are folks hoping AMD will come out with something to put them on top again, but Intel did a major leapfrog move on AMD and is poised to do it again when AMD gets around to shipping their next generation of CPU.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
TC, not sure where you are getting your data, but the Core 2 CPU's all run cooler (using much less power) than the equivalent AMD CPU, across the line,
And dollar for dollar the Core 2 family also outperforms the AMD CPU's. Virtually every benchmark site on the Internet verifies that. With the Allendale family Intel dropped the price and improvd performance again. With Penryn, they are going to do it again.
Right now, Intel is leading the price/performance war and probably will continue to do so for some time. I know there are folks hoping AMD will come out with something to put them on top again, but Intel did a major leapfrog move on AMD and is poised to do it again when AMD gets around to shipping their next generation of CPU.
I did not say AMD was better or Intel was better or vice versa, I was comparing his Intel 6400 to the AMD X2 5600, how they match up and the price.
the AMD 5600 is the 90n which runs cooler and can be overclocked verses the AMD 6000 or FX equiv. cost is cheaper than the Intel 6400 and it has a higher ghz 2.8ghz compared to 2.13ghz.....
I was simply giving a comparison, and it is my belief that the temp a system, a processor, a videocard runs at all depends on how the person built and/or designed the pc build., the case & fans etc..... articsliver5 or regular oem thermal paste etc....
I have seen extremely hot running AMDs and extremely cool running ones, all being same processor type. I have seen and say the same can be said for all Intel products as well.........I have talked with people who have 6400 or 660 Intels saying they bought it because it suppose to run cooler and perform better, yet their old AMD X2's was just as fast if not faster ( comparing to 4400 & 4800 X2s......) it is a crap shoot unless you take extra time in designing your computer build.
if someone is on a budget, then AMD can uphold the task of providing a very good gaming rig that will last for a few 3 or 4 years.......
bottom line is research, research, research then buy once.......
I personally have used AMD every since my 166+ smoked my Intel Pentium pro 200...that being said I have been looking/wishing to build an Intel Core 2 Duo 6600 or 6700........but look at my list comparison too, compare the HD, the System Memory, the Power Supply, the DVD burner drive, the video Card.....and look at the whole picture......I was giving Bad31st a different view is all.......
as for where am I getting my data, I usually read roughly 200+/ 300+ reviews of each product from users who have already bought and built with an item I am thinking about buying. Plus I research with the Damned squad mates, and different pc tech messageboards..... I feel it is more useful and proven information than relying on Bias'ed testing firms......
Alot of the different testing websites are very bias as to whether they are pro AMD or are Pro Intel ( same can be said about videocards, processors, any product )
and Skuzzy, we all know you are Pro INTEL :D , and I am Pro best bang for the buck......
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I Built a new machine in March for $1,100
ULTRA Case
ULTRA 600W PS
Asus MOBO P5BDeluxe
Intel Duo 6400 2.13
2 Gig OZC Ram
Asus 8800GTS 320mb
Asus 18x DVDRW
Window XP Home (no use in Vista until it's established)
I run full graphics and full sound accelleration and get 75fps constantly (limit of my monitor) if I had a 2ms LCD screen hard to tell what the FPS would be.
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btw, my old 2nd hand PC I have, where I purchased the processor, memory, vidcard etc used from a squadmate something like over 2 years ago is a messly little
Windows XP Pro SP2
AMD AthlonXP 2800+ socket-A processor ( running OEM not overclocked at all )
ASUS A7N8X-E MB
(2) 512 meg sticks of PC3200 DDR1 memory ( Corsair ) ( total 1 Gig )
Zalmann92mm heatsink fan
ATI Radeon x800 256meg GDDR3 256 bit AGP slot video card ( gave to me in exchange for a gameport full CH Hotas setup )
(2) 160/120 gig SATA hitachi HD's ( running in raid 1 )
Antec 550 watt truepower PSU
ASUS IDE DVD-RW DL burner ( 16x ,16x,8x, 8x, and 5x DVD_ram etc )
ASUS IDE DVD-Rom ( 16x )
Sony 3.5 Floopy drive
Soundblaster soundcard PCI ( need the gameport )
DELL 19" Ultrasharp 1908FP LCD monitor ( max res 1280x1024 at 75 mhz 5ms refresh, 800:1 contrast, etc )
I run Aces High at 1280 x 1024, sliders maxed to detail, max vis range 3 mile, run high res textures, preload textures, us skins enabled, etc...
and my framerate 99% of the time is rock steady at 70 FPS.......
so really now, why does anyone need all that fancy faluting overpriced High Dollar ultra uber computer parts anyway?
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Video thoughts:
Somebody said "avoid the 90-series drivers" then in the next line said "if you have money check out the Ge8800", only the 8000 series REQUIRES the 90-series drivers, from what I understand. Kind of a contradiction in that one post.
The type of VRAM doesn't really affect performance much. Ge7800GS has 256-bit RAM. Ge7600GT has 128-bit RAM. The 7600GT performs almost as well as the 7800GS, despite the GS having "other goodies".
The bits in the VRAM itself don't matter as long as the entire package is a good performer. My 7600GT is a powerhouse card (IMO), and I was a bit picky at first because of the 128-bit RAM, but now I don't care. I don't even look at that anymore. It's not what makes or breaks a vid card.
CPU thoughts:
TC, perhaps under OLDER cpus you can compare GHz evenly. Perhaps the old P4 at 2.8GHZ would be more equivelant to your AMD 5600. However, the Conroe chips, even at reduced frequencies, still crunch numbers way the hell better than their older counterparts. An E6400 at 2.13GHz (even if it only had one core) freaking blows away an older P4 3.6GHz. Frequency no longer determines capability, and really hasn't for a while now.
Even with a higher GHz, the AMD chip is left in the dust.
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Originally posted by Krusty
CPU thoughts:
TC, perhaps under OLDER cpus you can compare GHz evenly. Perhaps the old P4 at 2.8GHZ would be more equivelant to your AMD 5600. However, the Conroe chips, even at reduced frequencies, still crunch numbers way the hell better than their older counterparts. An E6400 at 2.13GHz (even if it only had one core) freaking blows away an older P4 3.6GHz. Frequency no longer determines capability, and really hasn't for a while now.
Even with a higher GHz, the AMD chip is left in the dust.
AMD X2 5600 is comparable to an Intel E6300/E6320 & E6400/E6420, this is a crapshoot depending on build design, either one could outperform the other depending on how system is built.......
Intel E6600 blows away the AMD X2 5600.......
no doubt the E6400 runs circles around the P4 series,
1 thing though, if frequency no longer determines capability, why the heck is everyone into overclocking to a higher ghz? and I am not to sure about that AMD left in the dust, I read the articles comparing the FX-62, X2 6000, E6400 & E6600 & Extreme6700( er or was it 6800 )
them $1,000 =/- Intels left it in the dust, but the 6600 was not that much better, and the 6400 was worse..... I did not save the bokmark but it is in this particular forum somewhere....
anyways comparing AMD to INTEL is apples & oranges really........but everyone loves their favorite brand ;)
as for the GDDr2 128 bit vs a GDDR3 256 bit videocard, there is a very big difference.....in picture quality.......
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Frequency no longer compares between AMD and Intel, but if you have a 2.13GHz E6400, you can overclock it to a 3.0GHz and gain 50% for no money.
Relative to AMD? Who knows. Relative to what you already had? WAY faster.
OCing is not to compare between brands, but to boost what you already have (which is self-comparing, needs no outside reference)
EDIT: If you really want to get into comparing AMD/Intel you need benchmarks, and I don't wanna get into the problems with those :D
EDIT2: P.S. the bits of bandwidth for the VRAM won't change the image quality. They will change the speed at which the VRAM is accessed, nothing more. The quality of the image is up to drivers and the GPU and the settings themselves. I see a HUGE difference on my 7600GT when I go from "performance" to "quality" on my vid card settings. HL2 actually comes to life with "quality" on -- but it eats up some FPS when I enable it.
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Good info from all and thank you.
I am going to be doing a good deal more research and shopping around, and I'm definatly going to go with TC's recomendation on memory and hard drive ~ I'm sold on the Conroe even though I've always liked and had great luck with AMD ~ I've just read and heard too many good things about the Conroe series...
I imagine I won't be actually purchasing/building the machine until July (taking advantage of the price cut on the Conroe as well as more research) so if anyone has any additional suggestions / comments please do so...
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Somebody said "avoid the 90-series drivers" then in the next line said "if you have money check out the Ge8800", only the 8000 series REQUIRES the 90-series drivers, from what I understand. Kind of a contradiction in that one post.
Krusty, the 8000 series cards only use the 9x.xx drivers, I was referring to the problems associated with the 7000 series cards. So, not a contradiction, just a fact. A contradiction would be the "facts" you state: i referred to the 8500 or 8600 cards, not the 8800. so, how about instead of posting to see yourself post, actually read what was written.
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Bad31st,
Please don't take any of my post as saying "This Is What You Need/Should Do". I merely was offering you a different view at it.
As I mentioned myself, I am hoping to go with a 6600 or 6700 Conroe build up myself soon hopefully( porb soon means tax time next year, and who knows what is out there by then ).
some other tips:
Power Supply Units are very critical. Get a Good quality named brand Unit with I would say at least 500 minimal, preferable would be 600/650 watt.I myself love the antec PSU's...
Good Quality Case that can BREATHE, I love the Antex900 case.it has big 120cmm fans ( 3 of em ), 1 200mm fan and can really move some air......( also good quality PSU units will have a 120mm fan also, which can help drop your heat factor by 3 to 6 degrees or more )
also like the : XION Stacker XON-791B Black Steel Chassis with Aluminum Front Door ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
or the: Antec Sonata III Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply
remember look for best product tech support & warranty of products that you can find ( research )
last note: if you want more valued thoughts / opinions on what would be best bang for your buck, you might want to post the price range of the total amount you are willing/wanting to spend...
well ok this is last thing: alot of people never do anything to keep dirt out of their computer cases.a lil thing that I do to keep the maintenance down is go to your grocery store and get some "cheesecloth" cut pieces out that will fit over your fan openings, when this become very dirrty/clogged up, just throw them away and put on a new piece of cloth..this will keep the internal components from getting caked up with dirt/gunk/dust etc..and will make your stuff last a lot longer with minimal cleaning
( also if any of your family in your home have breathing problems, you can put cheesecloth over our supply vents to help catch irritating contaminants/VOC's)
the cheesecloth will not harm or affect the performance of the fans ( or your homes heating/AC blower )
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
and Skuzzy, we all know you are Pro INTEL :D , and I am Pro best bang for the buck......
Why don't you search the bulletin board for Prescott and see what I said about it before making an attempt to impinge my credibility. You will find I consistently warned people to stay away form the Prescott CPU as it was an "abomination".
Clock rates mean squat in terms of actual performance today. OVerclockers just use it as a comparison to the stock CPU they are running against. It effects the percentage of performance tobe gained when comparing to the same CPU.
Krusty pretty much addressed everything else, except for power consumption. The current generation of Intel CPU's consume mcuh less power than the AMD counterpart does, so there is much less heat to dissipate. This is pretty well known.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You need to search the boards better. I have always been straight up abd which CPU was faster and better.
SirSkuzzy, please notice my big grin smiliey face, that was just a humorous jab.....and I was not comparing the 5600 n90 to the Intel as far has heat goes, I was comparing it to the other AMDs ( 6000 & FX62 which both run hotter than the 5600 yet the 5600 can produce the same as the 6000 or FX62 )
also, just as a Conroe can be overclocked, so can the 5600 / people have been getting 2.95 to 3.15 and still on stock cooling........ it might run hotter but how much hotter is to hot and what constitues not enough to even be bothered with?
***Also I even mentioned, I was wanting to build a Conroe , this is about my 3rd or 4th time saying it ****
I agree Intel has showed up AMD and are leading the race, I agree AMD is playing catchup at the moment, why though does everyone have to speak as if the other person that posted a different view is wrong ....I never do understand this.
and Skuzzy, I truely read all your post, and even ask you questions when I do not understand a particular subject that I think you might have the answer to
the Pro Intel comment was a joke sir, relax ;)
I guess I need to go and maybe pull benchmarks and different test data if I can find the links, I should have known better than to offer a comment or view...
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Why don't you search the bulletin board for Prescott and see what I said about it before making an attempt to impinge my credibility. You will find I consistently warned people to stay away form the Prescott CPU as it was an "abomination".
Clock rates mean squat in terms of actual performance today. OVerclockers just use it as a comparison to the stock CPU they are running against. It effects the percentage of performance tobe gained when comparing to the same CPU.
Skuzzy, I apologize that you took it as an impingement on your credibility, I meant it as a Joke and it was taken the wrong way.
I do not need to do a search, I clearly remember how hard you pushed people away from the Prescott.......
I saw your 1st post for today, when I was replying with the above post, then you posted again...
I should have worded the joke differently, expression is a hard thing to show in textform, and I have alot of beleif in what you post on these boards.
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No problem TC. I probably should have PM'ed you instead of posting. I am still working on my first cup of coffee.
Yes, I edited/killed the other response when I had realized Krusty already covered it. I had missed the post he had made before I made my response.
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so intel and Amd build a F-1 Car .... now who will win the race ??
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
TC, not sure where you are getting your data, but the Core 2 CPU's all run cooler (using much less power) than the equivalent AMD CPU, across the line,
Cooler yes, and much less power yes at full load. But the AMD equivalents use less power in idle operation as the Intel C2D's. Makes them attractive when power usage is a major factor.
Otherwise, Intel > AMD
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Just a brief comment on two points to consider.
I am actually guessing, but I suspect the video card being originally considered is AGP, which is now a deadend tech path. I say this as I have the 7800GS, which I understood to be the top-of-the-line, and last AGP card by nVidia. I would think PCI-e is the only way to go now for future upgradability.
Also, the 250mb Seagate Barracua (with Parallel) hard drive being consided, the next size up (320Mb) is only $10 more at Newegg. I just bought two (along with 2 IcyDock disk hot-swappable, external enclosures - very sweet). That's 28% more space for 14% more money.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Bad31st,
Please don't take any of my post as saying "This Is What You Need/Should Do". I merely was offering you a different view at it.
Absolutely ~ I posted looking for different views because the opinions of the members of this community
I also liked your case suggestions TC, but I'm really looking for a Micro ATX case 1) I'm running out of space ~ My current desktop will be running trixbox once I build my new machine - I really need a phone switch for business purposes and my current machine will meet that need no problem...
If anyone knows of a better Micro ATX case let me know....
Power supplies: I know quality is crucial I'm just not sure what will fit in a MATX case(paticularly the case I've selected) outside of looking at the case/powersupply and picking up a better PSU after the fact...
As far as the cheesecloth suggestion goes - GOOD Idea - I'm pretty good about changing out the AC filters in my home and clean out the ole PC case every 4 - 6 months but hey - anything to make it a bit easier...
Originally posted by Sloehand
but I suspect the video card being originally considered is AGP, which is now a deadend tech path.
The card originally considered was PCI -e 16 but had a 128 bit memory interface and used GDDR2 so yeah it is older technology but still upgradable...Good call on the HD's though sloehand ~ I didn't even notice the 320 GB's and the minor price difference...
Krusty ~ thanks for your input on the video cards and same to you NOT ~ I think the 8XXX cards are a bit out of my price range - I'll have to double check that though - but the info on drivers is great and will save me a headache or two once I build the machine...
Thanks everyone! Now on to more shopping around so I'll probably post an updated list or at least a couple of questions...
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No expert here, but I just built a similar system (Conroe 2.13, 2 gig Kingston, ASUS P5A??, 7900gs) and it works great for AH. Steady 75 FPS and no glitches I've found yet.
Aspen