Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CFYA on June 09, 2007, 11:43:58 PM
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With the war in Iraq and many other factors I have recently been taking a strong look into joining the Airforce. I have some technical school but no college. I will be 23 in December and just had a little boy about 4 months ago so the Airforce is the only service I would consider going into. I do not want to spend half my sons childhood away from him. I am dead set on doing something in the Aeronuatical/Aerospace fields (childhood dream and its unlikely to get too boring). However I dont know what jobs will be the best for after the military.
Being the Airforce the first thing that comes to mind is A/P mechanic. Of course in the Airforce its not a simple as that oweing to the fact that there are specialties, general mechanic areas, and never mind all the electronic fields. My biggest goal is to find a career in the military that will have great success after the military. If anyone has served(or is) I would love to hear your input on this. I have a VERY strong automotive back ground so getting my hands dirty is a way of life for me. I am not a paper pusher at heart so administrative duties are out for the most part.
Here are some of the jobs I was looking at:
Nuclear Weapons(not aerospace but still very "interesting" field)
Aerospace Maintenance
Aerospace Propulsion
Missile and Space Systems Maintenance
Liquid Fuel System Maintenance
Aircraft Armament Systems
Munitions Systems
I know the Airforce is one of the more unflexible branches when it comes to your first station and tech school. However I feel once I take the ASVAB(AFQT) test they will be very receptive so maybe I can get lucky or at least something in my top picks. Also no offense to the fine USAF pilots but I do not want to go to work everyday inside of a tincan at angels 30.:D I prefer tera firma.:aok I would defintly not mind check rides and debugg trips tho.
So anyway.......with this tidbit I would love to hear some opinions or stories about the USAF. What job was great, what job sucked stuff like that. Thanks in advance!
CFYA
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Jet engine mechanic, radar, any of the various avionics, hydraulics or sheet metal career fields should prepare you for a job outside the AF.
Just DON"T be an Aircraft Armament Systems Specialist if you are looking to continuing the same work once you leave the AF. There really isn't any civilian need for folks that know how to fix weapon systems, do preventive maintenance, repair 20mm gatling guns, and load said weapons systems with.....weapons.
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Oh yeah, working on ejection seats (Egress career field)....there probably isn't a big market for those guys in the civilian world either heh.
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Thanks Elfie those are some very good points on those 2 specialties.
Also another quick one....what types of pay would you be looking in civilian sector?
Thanks
CFYA
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Originally posted by CFYA
Thanks Elfie those are some very good points on those 2 specialties.
Also another quick one....what types of pay would you be looking in civilian sector?
Thanks
CFYA
Well it would be a heck of a lot more than what Uncle Scam pays you, thats for sure! :D
I really don't know the pay scales of the equivalent civilian jobs. The military isn't exactly known for paying high wages though.
I actually know quite a bit about being an Aircraft Armament Systems Specialist, it sounded sooooo cool when they offered me that job. ;) I just wish I had known exactly what it was before I accepted it. I would have preferred something that would transfer over to civilian life. I can't say the job wasn't fun though.
Just thought of something......I don't know if the AF still uses them, but in case they do, ask about reenlistment bonus's. Career fields the AF had a really hard time retaining folks into 2nd enlistments and beyond generally had high reenlistment bonus's. (Sometimes in the tens of thousands of dollars) Those career fields generally paid significantly more in the civilian sector than what Uncle Scam was willing to pay, hence the low retention rates.
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Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, I was a Weapons Control Systems
mechanic . In business aviation avionics guys get pretty
good pay, but generally act as contractors to the flight departments.
If you are looking to go A&P, you might consider crew chiefing as the
FAA seems to think they work the whole aircraft. I remember the guy at
Teterboro claiming I didn't work on the airframe of the F4. I probably didn't
help myself when I asked if he thought the radar was towed behind the
bird with a rope?
I know virtually nothing about the airline side, but generally the mechs
at my facility in Morristown NJ make between 40-60K. This is on fairly
hefty jets..Gulfstreams, Challengers, Falcons series. Obviously the Chief
of Maintenance makes alot more.
I'd take Elfie's advice seriously, haven't seen an awful lot of ordnance
loaded or unloaded in the last 20 years.:D Of course, I have seen some
funky stuff come in as cargo...from barrels of liquid explosive to shattered
155mm gun barrels to a cheetah on a leash!
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If you are looking to go A&P, you might consider crew chiefing
That's a good point Rino, for whatever reason, crew chiefs seem to have an easy time getting an A&P license. (Or at least they used to) I recall those APG guys talking about their plans to get one after they got out.
Funny thing is, I can't seem to recall AF crew chiefs doing any *real* work on those planes. I mean, they didn't fix engines or even help replace them. They didn't fix the radar (unless you count opening the radome as *help*) They didn't fix stripped out screws/fasteners or help replace warped panels when the pilot's over G'd the planes. All I ever saw them do was stuff like washing canopies, hooking up refueling hoses, doing launch/recovery, helping pilots strap in, sign off forms, towing planes to/from the hangers etc.
*edit* Oh yeah, saw them replace a lot of worn out tires too. :D
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Experience in the Air Force can get you the chance to take the A&P test, but very few Air Force types are close to prepared for it. Some come out and use the GI Bill to go to A&P school. That is a good way to go.
Many in civilian aviation maintenance are aware that the better majority of Air Force Techs do not have a strong overall background in aircraft maintenance due to the specialization the military practices.
It's not a bad way to get started, but it won't make you a hot property for the good jobs. A good tech school, or better a university A&P program will put you on the right track faster.
Those who take the military route followed by A&P school are a step ahead of those who only do one or the other.
Aviation maintenance is a decent career field, and in todays aviation world, you will always be able to find a job, but you might have to move. Boeing is hiring A&Ps right now, all they can get pretty much and they aren't demanding much experience. Pay and benefits very good at Boeing.
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Well, I had defintly considered being a crew chief. I dont know what there exact specialty name is tho. I believe it is Tactical Aerospace Maintenance for the information I have found on the net. My only concern is it sounds like I might get stuck doing remedial tasks more often than not. For instance I was hired to do oil/lube work at a gas station repair shop one summer after my freshman year. Three weeks in I was doing an engine with a transmission swap waiting. I am one of those people who wants to know their job and a whole lot more on top of that. I love those jobs where you take up a entire 30 ft deep bay with all the parts while getting those looks from your boss. You know the "My god is that thing going to ever run again" look!:D Take a engine out of late model Firebird/Camaro and youll find out.
For a lot of reasons I had thought about Aerospace Propusion. From what I can tell these are the guys that actually do the repair work on the jet engines themselves. My concern with that was going over to the civilian side and having completly different engines. I had hoped to talk to the local recruiter on Friday but she was at MacDill for a meeting with her Flight so now I have to wait til Monday. Was hoping to get some specific info from her but I will have to wait.
As far a pay goes.....I know you dont join the military for money. However the benifits are great in many areas (at least the USAF anyway). Me and the GF (the soon to be wife if I join) would love to see the world. Uncle Sam will be glad to send me somewhere I am sure.:D The biggest benefit I can see with USAF is my family joins me 95 percent of the time. I have also heard of a 6 year enlistment fast track program that I am very curious about. I "trust" my recruiter but I like biased opinions at times. Anyone been the USAF BMT(basic training) recently?
Thanks for the great advice gents.
CFYA
Ryan
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Originally posted by CFYA
For a lot of reasons I had thought about Aerospace Propusion. From what I can tell these are the guys that actually do the repair work on the jet engines themselves. My concern with that was going over to the civilian side and having completly different engines.
CFYA
Ryan
<--- Dual Afsc Jet eng / turboprop mech 1982-86 .
The Jet engine field in the USAF is top notch and transfers well into the civilian field afterwards . you can get jobs at any of the major A/C assembly plants afterwards without getting your AP lic . There is also Phase docks in the major airlines (Inspection /repair that has to be done at certian intervals) ,and lots of other jobs ... continuing on to a AP lic is easier too .
They practically gave me my powerplant Lic when I got out .
Working bombers , cargo,Refueling , transport type aircraft ,ect ,,, is best for this . avoid fighters if you can , this will keep you stationed at the better bases ussually too .
the other Fields are good too .. sheetmetal, avionics,hydralics, ect
For me Id place Crew chief down the list as 6 or 7th job choice ... buts thats just my personal preference . they do alot of window washing and tire kicking.
If you have some tech school / collage you can also use that to earn rank when you enter , and it helps get you a more specialized career field Garenteed upon entry .
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CFYA,
I'm at a Part 147 A&P school now being taught by a salty 84 year old DME who chiefed for Bear Cats and just about everything on the face of the earth the last 50 years. The airlines, united in particular are going to be retiring guys like crazy the next 3-4 years and there are not enough wrenches around. The program I am in takes 2 years and change, and roughly $2k over that 2 year period to get both the A and the P. Be wary of Pt 147 schools that want to grab you for $30k. Goto the local FAA FSDO website and look up AMT Part 147 schools in the region you are in.
Wolf
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Keep in mind that being in the Airforce does NOT mean you won't spend considerable time away from the family. Remember the AF deploys too and they take their mechanics and other support staff with them. Starting pay
is not a strong point in the military.
I also got my A&P through a school. In AZ. the choices were Cochice College near Douglas AZ. or another tech school at Prescott I believe. Now it's available at Pima Community College in Tucson as well. Cochise got the nod simply because it was a 15 month program at the time where the others were 18 months to 2 years. I got my certifications before I left campus. When I left the tuition was about $900.00 a session (3 months) and the class was a full day 4 days a week. There was a 2 week break at Christmas time and a one or 2 week break in the summer. Otherwise it was year round and you had either a dorm or housing on your own to pay for. Scholarships were available and usually went un taken as too many didn't bother to apply.
Mechanics working the najors have their own problems as well. Remember that they work around the clock and the new guys get the night shifts. A strike by one section will usually spill over the other sides of the business. A bankruptcy of your employer will also shut you down and may take away your pension. Ask Toad about pensions with the airlines. Figure on relocating as well.
The AF may help you get your A&P but remember that is not ojne of their specialties. The A&P is a civilian certification and you'll need to prove to the FAA that you have the necessary hands on experiance as well as take the tests to qualify for it. One of the guys I worked with just before retiring was a full time Guardsman in Tucson working on F16's. He had 9 years experiance but no A&P for quite a while. He got the airframe and I helped train him on recips while working in the hanger. Last I heard he was shooting for his own IA while still staying in the Guard for the retirement. If you can find a Guard position like his you will likely spend almost all of your time at home.
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The AF is also more than airplanes.
A friend of my son did real well in the military medical field. Signed up to be a radiologist tech (take x-rays). Went through the military schools for it, deployed to Afghanistan and got a ton of real world experience. Took every "advanced" school they offered him.
When he got out, a local hospital gave him a $40K salary with a $40K signing bonus. He has gone on to be a CAT scan expert at the local specialized cancer center. He's making really good money right now.
It's not all wrenches and hot oil. ;)
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If you join the AF you will deploy. The AF is no different from any other service in that regard. The deployment duration will be anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years, and will repeat with anywhere from 1 month at home to 2 years at home.
And you don't always end up in the job you want so you could end up doing refrigerator repair in Baghdad. Or digging outdoor toilets in Antartica.
And no matter what job you get, you might end up getting picked to go serve convoy guard duty because the Army doesn't have enough people to do Army stuff, so the AF has been operating under a SECDEF waiver to pretty much do the Army's job (which is normally against the law because it's not very cost effective to train up someone to do AF-tasked missions and then re-train them to do Army-tasked missions).
That means you'll very likely get shot at, and will almost certainly spend a lot of time away from home.
If that still sounds good, go for it.
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In other words, don't join the AF for the family life perks. It's a military life like any other, and we're fighting a war during a period of dramatic personnel cuts. There isn't any way to sugar-coat that, although I'm sure your recruiter will try his best.
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Did my 20 Years in the US Army... Air Force has better chow.
You asked,
Mac
If you listen to Eagl you'll end up asking me if I want to Super Size my frikken meal.
You can make it!
:aok
Mac
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The AirForce is a great way of life! I grew up a Brat. My dad retired Col. 32 years. I was in the Army, WO, for 6yrs. I would recommend anything A/P. While you are in, get your A&P license, then when you get out, the sky will be the limit. Good luck!!!
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By all means join the military. It will be a great boost to your life no matter what.
But don't expect to be home more than half the year.
If you or your future wife can't deal with that prospect, stay a civilian.
But if you stay a civilian it will take you longer to get where you want to go.
If you want a career in an aerospace field and want to be home every day, go to A & P school, get a license and gut out several years at low pay jobs until you have the required experience to demand a good salary.
If you want to fast track, join the Air Force in a field working on aircraft and while you are in the military work on your A & P certification whenever you can, even if it means apprenticing at the local podunk airport but you are going to be away from home a lot.
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I was an Aircraft Electrical Environmental Systems Craftsmen. I worked on F-106, T-33, F-4C/D/E, C-130 E/H, C-141 A/B, C-5 A/B, RC/EC/C-135, EF/F-111 E/F/G, B-52 G
And I had a blast for 22 years.
BUT,
I missed all three children’s 1st birthdays.
I missed my sons first year of little league.
I missed other misc Birthdays,
I missed over 50% of anniversary’s.
When I would come home my kids did not know me.
Then again,
Free housing.
Free utilities.
Free Health care (woop’s that’s gone).
Commissary and BX.
Really hard to get fired or laid off.
Your spouse must understand. You now belong to Uncle Sam. If you have to deploy (when you deploy) she just has to wave By By and get over it. Her actions and behavior on base will reflect on you.
Best idea!
Find someone in your area that has been in and talk to them. There are some jobs that do not deploy, Missleers and the like, (if they deployed we are in BIG trouble). Remember, You are going to serve your country, not to make your life easier. The only easy day was yesterday.
That all being said, it sure was fun!!!!
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I see some very interesting points....
I dont have much time right now but I have assured my wife will be able to join me to 95% of the places I will go.
I will post some more later but thanks for all the informative posts.
CFYA
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If you want to work in aerospace after the military, I'd say don't. That is if you like the idea of getting layed off all the time. It is not very steady work. Most aeospace companys work is based on contracts from their customers, like airlines and the government. Sometimes that contract last for years and others for short periods. Then when the work is over, your looking for another job. And if you work building aircrafts like at Boeing and Lockheed, there contract cycles last from 3 to 5 years. And if another 9/11 happens,kiss your job goodbye.
I've been an aircraft mechanic for 27 years now. That inclues over 12 years in the military. A job at an repair station and at Boeing and Lockheed. Layed off from Boeing after 9/11. Took over 3 years before I was called back. But by then was working at Lockheed at their Ft Worth plant on F16s and F22 center section. Was layed off earlier this year. Was working contract jobs this year. 3 differant places. Fortuantly was called back to Lockheed this week. If nothing bad happens to the F35, then I can retire. But it is still a gamble.
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I was in Civil Engineers on a SAC base as a plumber. Got out and Im still a plumber with my own business. Small, but it keeps me happy, and ability to make good money and not have to work real hard is a plus.