Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Max on June 12, 2007, 10:06:08 PM
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Given the 9 months time since you've changed the arena format, it's been pretty well established that the EW + MW arenas are usually populated by low numbers of players. The EW is generally a mish mosh of milkrunners, and those who enjoy killing them. :D Mid-war seems to see a little more dogfiting but really not that much.
Nothwithstanding the never-ending gripes about LW hordes in Blue and Orange, there seems to be a genuine desire from those who seek pure dogfighting. To that end I would suggest combining the EW and MW arenas into one and replacing the void with a pure and simple air combat venue. No GV's, no bombers, no "war to win" just a map a la Donut with half a dozen bases for each chess piece to up from. It could be done with a rolling plane set or all aircraft; your call.
My guess is something like that would make a lot of folks happy. Worth a try on an experimental basis, no?
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Seems to me it wouldn't take much more to achieve that objective than to just bring back maps with a Fightertown.
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If Fighter Town were brought back to MW or EW I garantee numbers would be higher.
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definatly
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I'm pretty sure Eaglehrt would sue everybody if they did away with the milkrunner's havens.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm pretty sure Eaglehrt would sue everybody if they did away with the milkrunner's havens.
What joo talkin bout Willis?!??! SOAP pwnz, everyone knows dis.
:lol
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm pretty sure Eaglehrt would sue everybody if they did away with the milkrunner's havens.
You will be dead by morning just for mentioning this. He knows people...
:noid
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i know people who know people who know eagleharts people and they can do things, scarey things, things i dont wanna mention:noid
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I dont think HTC need to close one arena just to open another. I mean, they can add more arenas w/o closing existing ones.
Anyway, neither "fighter arena" nor arena with fighter's town would change anything, exept for 1-2 first weeks maybe. Most of ppl dont want to play in near empty arena, most of ppl dont want pure dogfight as well. Time ago there was "fighter arena" as Combat Theatre setup (more than once, afair), it hasnt any success on big scale.
btw, ppl who want pure dogfight can do it in DA or TA right now, they dont need whole arena for it, just 3 fields close to each other.
Speaking about EW/MW arenas, a want them out of scoring system. Or give them separate score like CT have.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
i know people who know people who know eagleharts people and they can do things, scarey things, things i dont wanna mention:noid
The Mossad scares me...
:noid
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I'm not slammin' the idea, because I understand where you're coming from, but...
Don't we already call this the Dueling Arena?
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Originally posted by kamilyun
The Mossad scares me...
:noid
HAHAHA lolz :lol
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Don't we already call this the Dueling Arena?
Thought Dueling Arena was for 1vs1 duels...or small dueling engagements. Think he is talking about a larger scale. I suppose you could get larger scale he is talking about in DA...just would have to advertise it as a regular thing?
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We once had a certain map, which catered to all kinds of gameplay. Lines of V-Fields, far enough from airfields making huge GV battles possible. Strat targets to ponder. Several CV fleets per side. A place at a lake in the middle, were you could mindless furball for hours.
You could switch from playing style to playing style without leaving the arena. I used to warm up at FT, then go to "win teh war" mode on other parts of the map, then back to furballing.
Tha map was a large one and it's name has already been mentioned... ;)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm pretty sure Eaglehrt would sue everybody if they did away with the milkrunner's havens.
He and his squad will then just own the LW arenas like they do EW. Two resets per day. Oh wait, they can't fight 13 vs 1 and 0 there... ;)
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Bring back the Main Arena :aok
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I have to admit I'd like to see some changes tried in a either an existing or new arena.
After all, what does it cost them but some time to set it up?
Heck open up a contest for the best "New arena idea".
Then take the top 5, and try them, see what actually works, and what doesn't.
What do we have to lose?
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Originally posted by Max
Given the 9 months time since you've changed the arena format, it's been pretty well established that the EW + MW arenas are usually populated by low numbers of players. The EW is generally a mish mosh of milkrunners, and those who enjoy killing them. :D Mid-war seems to see a little more dogfiting but really not that much.
Nothwithstanding the never-ending gripes about LW hordes in Blue and Orange, there seems to be a genuine desire from those who seek pure dogfighting. To that end I would suggest combining the EW and MW arenas into one and replacing the void with a pure and simple air combat venue. No GV's, no bombers, no "war to win" just a map a la Donut with half a dozen bases for each chess piece to up from. It could be done with a rolling plane set or all aircraft; your call.
My guess is something like that would make a lot of folks happy. Worth a try on an experimental basis, no?
Max, that is a wonderful suggestion. HiTech take notice.
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How about a "throwback" arena, like when the baseball teams wear old uniforms from the past once in a while?
Could we have an "old times" arena that presents a fight like we had in Beta (and in AW and WB in the past)?
Back then, you captured a field by successfully landing and exiting on the enemy airfield.
Bombers took out the ack and fighters tried to gain air superiority long enough for someone to land. Of course, the enemy might land right behind your guy and the field would switch back in seconds.
There'd have to be some adjustments. All the troops in the maproom stuff would go away, there'd have to be some sort of controls or even elimination of most of the GV's.
I'd just like to see those mad, crazy fights for conquest that we had on the Beta map. Those were absolutely some of the best times in AH.
How could it hurt to do that every once in a while?
Even if the setup was what we had in late Beta, the dropping of 10 troops on the airfield, that would be OK too.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. The evolution of the game has been to make field capture ever more difficult and complicated. More ack, moving the maproom to a distant city, etc., etc., etc.. While this stuff made the win the war aspect more complicated, it didn't really make it more fun. In fact, IMO, it made it significantly less fun.
There should be a place to just rock and roll in the old simplified Beta environment for those of us that think the added complexity just added boredom.
Note I'm not calling for any elimination of what we have now. Rather, I'm asking for an opportunity to once again play the game in what I consider it's purest fun form.
Everyone can still mob the LW's. I'd just like the chance for some like minded souls to meet in the old Beta environment and relive the fun.
My .02.
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Would someone please give me a brief history/explanation of the now defunct "fighter town" ? Was this an area of a larger map where there were no bombers or vulchers? I know we no longer have this area, but it seems like a lot of the old hands refer to this fondly.
Thanks for cluing in a noob.
:)
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I'm not slammin' the idea, because I understand where you're coming from, but...
Don't we already call this the Dueling Arena?
Yes and no. From my perspective, a lot of folks I know use the DA for specific training purposes or to resolve grudge matches a la ch 200.
Xtyger mentioned bringing back maps with Fightertown. Trouble is those maps are too big, even for the 400+ LW's. Fact is though, when Donut was in rotation, Fightertown as a very popular place to fight. That suggests to me that there's a lot of players who prefer air combat over the other aspects of the game. Hence my suggestion. I know it won't make everyone happy but judging by the never-ending grief posts regarding hordes and milkrunners, those players who subscribe primarily to match wits in the air with other players, would have an arena specifically geared to that purpose.
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Originally posted by duddini
Would someone please give me a brief history/explanation of the now defunct "fighter town" ? Was this an area of a larger map where there were no bombers or vulchers? I know we no longer have this area, but it seems like a lot of the old hands refer to this fondly.
Thanks for cluing in a noob.
:)
There used to be a map named Donut in the rotation. It was a rather large map shaped like a donut. In the center was a lake and each country had one base at the lake. The lake was surrounded by 20k mountains which discouraged bombers. Hence, the folks who are ardent air combat fans would wage war over the lake.
That's the long and short of it.
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Originally posted by Max
There used to be a map named Donut in the rotation. It was a rather large map shaped like a donut. In the center was a lake and each country had one base at the lake. The lake was surrounded by 20k mountains which discouraged bombers. Hence, the folks who are ardent air combat fans would wage war over the lake.
That's the long and short of it.
Thanks Max, that clears it up very nicely for me. With a 20K mountain wall around it, I bet bombers were very rare indeed. I like the furball aspect best myself, I'm sorry I missed out on fighter town, it sounds like a place I would hang out alot (and die alot :( )
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guess again..griefers went way outta the way to take the bases at ftr town..they saw it as a challenge, well after they flew in 20k lancs and destroyed all the hangars..
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I fondly remember all that screaming on countrychannel about that "furballers who are just wasting our resources in FT" - As If fuel or ammo suddenly had been rare commodities or the other countries had no players in FT :D
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True; it was the classic "play the game our way" with all that "wasting our resources" crap.
I remember one guy sinking a CV where there was a great fur going on and he lectured us on country channel that we needed to stop wasting resources and join the war effort.
I switched sides and shot him down.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
True; it was the classic "play the game our way" with all that "wasting our resources" crap.
I remember one guy sinking a CV where there was a great fur going on and he lectured us on country channel that we needed to stop wasting resources and join the war effort.
I switched sides and shot him down.
:rofl
Now this is a man I can respect :)
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Originally posted by duddini
Now this is a man I can respect :)
You may not realize it, but you have just qualified for balcklisting by the war winners.
For those who live and die by "teh war," side switching proves lack of moral fiber, and a traitorous willingness to desert the nation of one's birth to aid the perfidious enemy. There are some squads that will eject and lifetime ban members for switching sides even once, even in a minor arena.
On the other hand, welcome to the family of guys who just wanna have fun. There are great people on all 3 countries, and IMHO you miss a lot by rejecting their comradeship just because of the shape of their chesspiece!
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Originally posted by Simaril
You may not realize it, but you have just qualified for balcklisting by the war winners.
On the other hand, welcome to the family of guys who just wanna have fun.
Thanks. I can't stand whiners and cry babies. I just hope one day I have the skill to do something about it, like Toad. With his earlier post, he just jumped to the top of my "good guys" list. :D
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Forget the rolling planeset. For 1 we don't have the holes filled to pull that off. If, however, we just combined EW+MW planesets it would be sweet (test it out, why not? If folks can't live without their uber lgays and runstangs then enable them later, but try it out capped at MW first).
Oh, and I'm not one that cried over the radio, but I totally see the point when your team was outnumbered 2:1, being ganged up on by both other teams, and of your players 60% were mindlessly furballing at the center lake.
Kinda stupid ifluff'n ya ask me.
Anyways, I hated donut because the fields were at 5K artificial drop-offs so that any reupper can just dive into the fray with 500+ MPH without having to worry about climbing, building speed, and those that have already bested somebody (already have a kill or have survived af fight) are now low and slow. It basically bred cherry picking nonstop. I'd rather have 1.5-2k starts and a GENTLE (read: NOT 45 degrees) slope to the shore of the lake. That would be infinitely better.
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Originally posted by Krusty
radio, but I totally see the point when your team was outnumbered 2:1, being ganged up on by both other teams, and of your players 60% were mindlessly furballing at the center lake.
The quota of players in FT was always approximately the same for all countries. Had you just shut down FT, your country would still have been outnumbered.
And there is some rumor that there are some players who are not interested in the "war" at all, regardless of map & situation ;)
Originally posted by Krusty
cause the fields were at 5K artificial drop-offs so that any reupper can just dive into the fray with 500+ MPH without having to worry about climbing, building speed, and those that have already bested somebody (already have a kill or have survived af fight) are now low and slow.
And thats' exactly what made FT so popular. :)
FT was the best place to sharpen your SA.
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Originally posted by Krusty
.... and of your players 60% were mindlessly furballing at the center lake.
I'd actually be very happy spending 90% of my time furballing ;)
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Originally posted by Krusty
....snip
Kinda stupid ifluff'n ya ask me....
No offense Krusty, but its not stupid at all. You can only say so if you expect everyone out there to have the same values as you do...which is inherently unreasonable.
There are many who like the tactical side, and want to take bases to "win". It can be a lot of fun, at least when numbers aren't the determining factor. Unfortuantely, in my (not at all exhaustive) experience, the vast majority of captures boil down to application of locally overwhelming numbers...so for me, that lost its appeal. It's not any fun (for me) to be part of those captures, and not worth the frustration to fight them.
Now for people like me, when the Country is getting steamrolled, it isnt a bother. I just want a fight where I can be competitive, and have some fun that way.
We're not stupid, Krusty.... we just have different goals.
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Stupid that over half your team is obsessed with something else, totally ignoring the fact that the rest of the rather sizable team could use them (not even anywhere specific, just NUMBERS to help counter the enemy).
I like the idea that this would be separate from the LWAs, because then this wouldn't happen. All those in the LWAs would be able to put pressure on the other teams in whatever way they wish, but wouldn't end up shafting their countrymates (now especially with ENY!) because they wanted to play something else.
If this were in a separate arena (as suggested in this thread) it would be the best of both worlds, IMO!
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Well, that's one way to look at it I guess.
Or you could figure that the reuppers diving in give you great practice on your reversals.
I always figured getting three at FT was a great sortie. Sure, you almost always get killed; big deal, another cartoon airplane bites the dust. But the excitement of whirling, swirling and staying alive in that remorseless environment long enough to kill 3, 4, 5 others... priceless.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Stupid that over half your team is obsessed with something else, totally ignoring the fact that the rest of the rather sizable team could use them (not even anywhere specific, just NUMBERS to help counter the enemy).
I like the idea that this would be separate from the LWAs, because then this wouldn't happen. All those in the LWAs would be able to put pressure on the other teams in whatever way they wish, but wouldn't end up shafting their countrymates (now especially with ENY!) because they wanted to play something else.
If this were in a separate arena (as suggested in this thread) it would be the best of both worlds, IMO!
The above is perhaps a classic example of "Play my way!" or get out.
And it's not coming from the furball side at all.
Thank you and good night.
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Incorrect, and arrogant to think so Toad.
This game has certain constructs built directly into it. The entire point of base taking was only created to further air to air action. And ground action. The imbalances which HTC have watched for so long, and gave so much concern about that they changed the arenas several times in quick succession to try to rectify these imbalances, they were worsened by the "mindless furballers" -- a term I did not coin but I use because folks understand what I mean. I myself fit into this category most of the time.
Do not presume to think that, simply because I express 1 side of an opinion, I only know 1 side of the issue. I understand both sides of the matter. From your typical responses I can presume you're one of the "mindless furballers." What other conclusion can I draw with your recent post(s)? :rolleyes: (see how that works? Just like you were doing?)
Now, with the arbitrary constructs that AH has in place -- it doesn't matter what they are, it's "the system" -- if you have folks that go outside the system they hurt the folks still in the system. What if you got perks just for hours logged on? You'd have 75% of your team logged on and AFK for the night, even if they weren't flying. This doesn't hurt anybody, right? Wrong.
Like I said, I don't tell folks how to fly. I might chastize them for flying like a tard, but that's about it (and not that often). However, as long as they fly within the system we've got going, I don't give a rat's. Once they start screwing up ME and MINE, then I have issues.
Furball island usually ended up giving the entire team the shaft. Maybe this is unique to Knights. I don't know.
I reiterate, I'm all for this idea. I enjoyed FT more than my fair share of times. However I don't want to see it back in the LWAs regularly. Having it in a separate arena allows me to enjoy it when I want, and allows me to NOT get screwed by my own teammates when I don't want it.
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Originally posted by Raptor
If Fighter Town were brought back to MW or EW I garantee numbers would be higher.
oh yes...
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Where did the term "mindless furballers" come from ?? Heck, that is what convinced me to pony up my $15/month after my 2 week free run, the fun of trying to shoot down other planes. Furballs have the most potential targets (I know, I'm very frequently somebody else's target :) ) After all, this game IS all about air combat......furballs....
Guess I'm just a clueless noob.
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Originally posted by Krusty
...I totally see the point when your team was outnumbered 2:1, being ganged up on by both other teams, and of your players 60% were mindlessly furballing at the center lake.
If those same 60% who want to furball go to a different arena to do so, how is that an improvement from them being in the FT area furballing? I submit it would be worse. At least with FT in the middle of the map, furballers from all sides would stay in the furball. If FT was a different arena, when one side or the other gets close to winning, lemmings would tend run to that arena to the winning side (even the ones who won't get any perks for the reset!) and the numbers would become even more lop-sided.
Regards,
Hammer
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Originally posted by hammer
If those same 60% who want to furball go to a different arena to do so, how is that an improvement from them being in the FT area furballing? I submit it would be worse. At least with FT in the middle of the map, furballers from all sides would stay in the furball. If FT was a different arena, when one side or the other gets close to winning, lemmings would tend run to that arena to the winning side (even the ones who won't get any perks for the reset!) and the numbers would become even more lop-sided.
Regards,
Hammer
I don't quite get it
you are saying you want FT back?
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Originally posted by duddini
Where did the term "mindless furballers" come from ??
back when there was a fightertown, there was a certain brand of people who made no effort to dogfight and would just plow head on with what ever thier cannon bird of choice happen to be.
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Originally posted by Spikey
I don't quite get it
you are saying you want FT back?
While I personally enjoy FT, I don't particularly care one way or the other. I generally can find some fun in any of the arenas. I am just curious as to how having furballers in a different arena would be any different from having them concentrated in the center of any MA map. In either case they (we? I tend to look for furballs even on maps without FT) are not participating in capturing bases, are not defending bases, and are not otherwise contributing (or detracting IMHO) from the base capture / win-the-war side.
If it was up to me, I would have somewhere for furballers to furball. Fighter vs Fighter is what I like to do and there is really no incentive (for me) to win the war. I get much more satisfaction out of a good fight (win or lose) than I do from winning the war.
Regards,
Hammer
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Hammer, if they are in another arena they won't affect your ENY limitations. They won't inflate country numbers with "empty slots" so to speak.
Mind you, what we have now is different from what we had when maps like Donut were in regular rotation.
The arena will be much as it is now, perhaps with less players at first (but even a FT only arena would slow down after a while -- it is repetitive), then would re-stabilize into what we've been seeing lately.
EDIT: P.S. They need to just make a map with 2 airfields per side, around a sector-wide lake, no more than 2k airfields, and no mountains no other fields, no rest of the map, just that and then put this map in the new arena (whatever it may be called).
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Originally posted by Krusty
I enjoyed FT more than my fair share of times.Having it in a separate arena allows me to enjoy it when I want, and allows me to NOT get screwed by my own teammates when I don't want it.
Screwed by own teamates? I don't get it.
So you are basically saying people don't help your war effort because they are on a specific part of the map called FT.
What would be different if they were in a different arena instead? Nothing. They still wouldn't help you. Actually they would even less, for sometimes some of the "furballers" in FT listened to cries for help, when some battle on the same map was in a cruical stage. If they are in a different arena, they won't even notice.
And again for the record: ALL countries were "affected" by FT at a similar degree. ENY wouldn't change much on the average.
And you could read alll those "wasted resources" cries on every countrychannel.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hammer, if they are in another arena they won't affect your ENY limitations. They won't inflate country numbers with "empty slots" so to speak.
That's possible. It assumes that your country has a larger percentage participating in FT than the others, but possible. It's also possible that the force ratio would stay about the same, leaving ENY virtually unchanged.
Regards,
Hammer
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I didn't read the whole thread, but one thing I know for sure: I want my Fighter Town back. I want the big, endless, chaotic furball going on day and night.
So, in any shape, bring it back, please.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
Gian, you sick puppy!
Wait, do wolves have puppies or cubs? :huh
Whatever!
:rofl
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Originally posted by Krusty
Wait, do wolves have puppies or cubs? :huh
I have none, right now, so you don't have to choose! ;) :D
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I think FT in EW or MW would be loads of fun because less "uber cannon planes."
As for Krusty, you are going to have to realize that a lot of us just don't care about the war or what you have to say about us not caring. You think furballing endlessly is pointless? I think it is fun in that no 2 engagements are the exact same. On the other hand, I think winning the war is pointless. I could care less about country affiliation, actually I am never on the winning side of a war because I switch to whatever team has the most fights (usually the low number losing team)
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Again with folks calling me an anti-furballer.
Perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.
I'm all for it. I am a furballer. It just hurts your teammates in the MAs. You can find "mindless furballs" that are near a front line just as easily as FT, and yet doesn't shaft your teammates. You'll often find me near one of these.
At this point I'm tired of repeating myself, as nobody seems to understand wtf I'm typing anyway.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Again with folks calling me an anti-furballer.
Perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.
I'm all for it. I am a furballer. It just hurts your teammates in the MAs. You can find "mindless furballs" that are near a front line just as easily as FT, and yet doesn't shaft your teammates. You'll often find me near one of these.
At this point I'm tired of repeating myself, as nobody seems to understand wtf I'm typing anyway.
Maybe you should apply the last sentence to yourself. How can furballers "hurt" you, when they are part of every country?????
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Because usually the knits are outnumbered by a large amount, and usually is being ganged up on by both other countries (think back to the single arena environment from when we HAD the FT maps) and usually the folks we needed to keep it from being a gang****ping were in a "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO FLY!" defensive mood.
That's how they hurt their teammates. Imagine Leonidus trying to prepare for battle but half his men saying "Hey, man, we're all going to die, so we're gonna go do play poker over here, you can die how you like. See you in hell."
Seems to me you all think things happen equally across all 3 teams. It's almost never been that case, as far back as I can remember.
EDIT: P.S. If you don't understand I'm not going to enlighten you. Go about your business. Original post was about combining EW and MW into a FW "Furball War" (?) arena.
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Well we might as well have -
A GV only arena - So they don't have to worry about getting egged in TT
A Buff only arena - So they can bomb in peace.
As well as a fightertown only arena.
Where does it end?
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Kev, the thing that sets a FT arena apart from your other suggestions is that folks in there WANT to fight.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Because usually the knits are outnumbered by a large amount, and usually is being ganged up on by both other countries (think back to the single arena environment from when we HAD the FT maps) and usually the folks we needed to keep it from being a gang****ping were in a "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO FLY!" defensive mood.
That's how they hurt their teammates. Imagine Leonidus trying to prepare for battle but half his men saying "Hey, man, we're all going to die, so we're gonna go do play poker over here, you can die how you like. See you in hell."
Seems to me you all think things happen equally across all 3 teams. It's almost never been that case, as far back as I can remember.
Sigh... but not only half of the knits are in FT. Half of the enemy is there too!
So with or without FT - the ratio is always the same!
120 rooks 120 bish 80 knits. Nits have 25% of arena population.
Now we assume 50% off all players are in FT. That would leave for "strategic play":
60 rooks 60 bish 40 knits. Hmm.. knits have still 25% of all players.
Now we assume there is a different FT arena. Half of each country goes there. So we have 60 rooks, 60 bish, 40 knits left. ... Still 25%
:aok
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Doesn't work that way...
[EDIT: Actually it's similar, but not the way you think, because you almost NEVER get all 3 teams evenly fighting each other, almost always the weaker team is ganged up upon, and often times that's the knits]
If there's 10 players on, knits have 25%, that's 2-3 players. If there's 100 players on, knits have only 25 (against a combined 75). Much worse. Assume there's 300 on, then there's only 75 knits against 225 enemies.
Percentages get WORSE (in effect) the larger the number is. Especially as enemy density per sector increases.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Well we might as well have -
A GV only arena - So they don't have to worry about getting egged in TT
A Buff only arena - So they can bomb in peace.
As well as a fightertown only arena.
Where does it end?
Don't forget the PT boat only arena. :)
If EW/MW were done away with, I am not sure that Egohrt would be able to sue. He might find it difficult to call his lawyer. It's tough to see the keypad through all of the tears. :D
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Sometimes I just think Krusty disagrees for arguement's sake
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Originally posted by Krusty
Doesn't work that way...
[EDIT: Actually it's similar, but not the way you think, because you almost NEVER get all 3 teams evenly fighting each other, almost always the weaker team is ganged up upon, and often times that's the knits]
If there's 10 players on, knits have 25%, that's 2-3 players. If there's 100 players on, knits have only 25 (against a combined 75). Much worse. Assume there's 300 on, then there's only 75 knits against 225 enemies.
Percentages get WORSE (in effect) the larger the number is. Especially as enemy density per sector increases.
huh?
You want the FT to be in a seperate arena. You claim that would be better than being integrated in teh standard "win teh war arena"
But still: The absolute numbers would be the same!
One country being outnumbered 1-3 would suffer exact the same "disadvantge" wether the furballers are in FT on same map or in another arena. Absolute numbers - would be the same. Realative numbers: would be the same. ENY - would be the same.
There is NO benefit from removing those people. Other from "get those furballers out of my eyes!"
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You're assuming the ratio is constant!
Like I said, whatever makes you think anything in this game is balanced or fair? :D
Look, never mind. Obviously we've got a miscommunication going on and I'm to blame. I'm going to just drop the matter.
Totally removed from this point: Just having FT in its own arena would be interesting as a way to get a "quick fix" -- even folks that like to land every sortie enjoy the quick and dirty action of FT!
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Originally posted by Krusty
If there's 10 players on, knits have 25%, that's 2-3 players. If there's 100 players on, knits have only 25 (against a combined 75). Much worse. Assume there's 300 on, then there's only 75 knits against 225 enemies.
Percentages get WORSE (in effect) the larger the number is. Especially as enemy density per sector increases.
Originally posted by Krusty
You're assuming the ratio is constant!
Look, never mind. Obviously we've got a miscommunication going on and I'm to blame. I'm going to just drop the matter.
You're assuming that the ratio is constant, too, Krusty. And, yes, you have some communication problem... :p
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I was using what he'd already posted. Anyways, it's no sweat off my brow either way.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Incorrect, and arrogant to think so Toad.
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Quite correct and not arrogant at all, rather simply observant.
Now, with the arbitrary constructs that AH has in place -- it doesn't matter what they are, it's "the system" -- if you have folks that go outside the system they hurt the folks still in the system.
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Here you use a fallacy to make your argument. There IS no "system" in this game that has any supremacy or validity over any other "system".
The sacred goal of the game is NOT base capture, not winning the war, not ANYTHING except what YOU make it for yourself.
You cannot "hurt the folks in the system" simply because there IS NO SYSTEM.
So many people fail to understand the goal of this game. The goal of the game (any game really) is to have fun.
Allow me to re-quote the game's inventor/founder on this subject:
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Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.
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This is a false assumption.
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
For emphasis, from HiTech himself:
Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
So it is simply impossible that
Furball island usually ended up giving the entire team the shaft.
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because "winning the war" is no more justified as a game "system" or goal than "going out and just mixing it up".
War winners have no special claim to righteousness or purity of goal in the game. They're just other players seeking their form of fun, a form which is no more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
I guess it can never be said enough to get through to the play-my-ways.
Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
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I think what Krusty is trying to say is that if there are 300 peeps on, with 100 a side and 80 of one side is in FT while only 40 of the other two sides are in FT, then the one side with only 20 "War Winners" is getting ganged by the 60X2 "War Winners" of the other two countries. This situation would lead to the "War Winners" thinking that the folks in FT are "screwing it up for the rest of us" since, while relatively outnumbered on the lee side of the mountains, they do not reap the benefits of a higher ENY among the relatively larger other two sides. While this situation obviously is no problem for any of the Furballers of the three countries (they are able to play the game in a manner they enjoy with no perceived penalty), the War Winners would feel slighted, as their grand strategy and tactics would be handicapped by the numbers imbalance (and therefore create a "penalty" for those that don't want to furball and want to win the war).
So, IMHO, the best way to create perceived equity for the two different styles of gameplay, create an arena that is engineered to support the Furballers, and a separate arena that is engineered to support War Winning. That takes me back to my original point about the DA. Change the map to put a central point that is ringed with 3 bases, 1 from each country, at equal distances and altitudes. Then, the Furballers could dog pile the DA, fight like-minded folks, while not creating perceived "disadvantages" for the War Winners in the main arenas.
Personally, I think the biggest problem is one of mass. Folks want to play (with a few previously mentioned exceptions) in the arenas that have larger numbers in order to participate in the social aspects of the game with their fellow players and have the ability to find fights. Therefore, telling Furballers to go to the DA doesn't gain traction with them, and the War Winners feel slighted by the "waste of resources" when Furballers "invade" the MA's and don't help with the War Effort.
My two cents...
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Toad....game, set, match. :)
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Originally posted by Stoney74
While this situation obviously is no problem for any of the Furballers of the three countries (they are able to play the game in a manner they enjoy with no perceived penalty
Not true. Those playing in FT are subject to the same ENY limitations. Thus, while one team may have to furball in a weak EW ride, the other team may have Spixteens.
(Not that that bothers me; I gravitate to the EW/MW planeset mostly anyway. Beating a guy in a much better plane is its own reward.)
And still, we get back to the basic fundamental, inescapable fact:
Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
Thus, those "War Winners" that think the folks in FT are "screwing it up for the rest of us" again fail to understand that the entire "war winning" concept exists ONLY to promote combat.
Promote combat.... not win a war. Their "their grand strategy and tactics" exist ONLY to promote combat.
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Originally posted by Toad
Not true. Those playing in FT are subject to the same ENY limitations...
Promote combat.... not win a war. Their "their grand strategy and tactics" exist ONLY to promote combat.
Well, in my example, there would be no ENY for any of the three sides. My example was built to better articulate Krusty's argument, and that is that there is a perceived (and I cannot emphasize this word enough in saying this) inequality created by a side that is, otherwise equal in numbers in the overall arena itself, "handicapped" by a larger percentage of its players relative to the other two sides having their fun by furballing.
I don't disagree with you Toad, but I'm talking about a perception from those of an opposing view point than yours. I'm not an apologist for the War Winners, just trying to flesh out a point. Those that fight the war are looking for a different kind of combat than those that furball--agreed? But, it is still combat, just of a different variety. Personally, I don't gravitate towards either. I like a less chaotic fight than the typical furball provides, but could typically care less about the war other than it as a catalyst for setting up fights. That being said--as an outside observer that doesn't proscribe to either bi-polar classifications of players (I'm trying to illustrate my position as a third-party type), some arguments of the Furball crowd can come off as a bit cavalier towards those that want to fight the war simply because of the fact that some of the mechanics of the MA's don't affect furballing as they do the war-fighters (again, referencing my example and not one where a single country has a number advantage and the resultant ENY). And, even when they do, as you have stated yourself, a lot of the furball crowd is not disuaded from upping the EW and MW planes in a LW setting.
I contend that HTC has a fairly tough job pleasing what has become a much more dynamic player base over the years. Until a time comes when every player has an arena that supports their preferred type of play, we have to make do with what we have. I believe HTC has set up the arenas in a manner that seems most logically, to them--given the current capability, to please the broadest spectrum of the player base. To me, it seems that currently the game supports furballing in the DA, with war-fighting in the MA. But, that's just my opinion.
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I doubt he likes the idea of segregation. If 1/2 the guys like to dogfight, and the other half like "the game" part, and you remove all the dogfighters, chances are even the guys who prefer the game part will tire of the game before long. Then before long 1/2 the people leave.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Well, in my example, there would be no ENY for any of the three sides. My example was built to better articulate Krusty's argument, and that is that there is a perceived (and I cannot emphasize this word enough in saying this) inequality created by a side that is, otherwise equal in numbers in the overall arena itself, "handicapped" by a larger percentage of its players relative to the other two sides having their fun by furballing.
I understand where your coming from, but your blinding yourself. OK lets say we have your senerio in numbers, BUT HTC has a "furball" arena and a "base capture" arena.
In the "Furball" arena we have 80 x 60 x 60, and
In the "base capture" arena we have 20 x 40 x 40
The 20 "win the war" people are still whining about the numbers, but now they have no one to blame. So spliting won't help the base capture folks EVER, and the furball people just want to be able to fight, and couldn't care less about the "split"
With the maps we have now, base capture folks are the ones generating the mini furballs between bases. Biggest problem is when they finally get close to the capture the fight dies out till the next base comes under attack.
Whats the solution? I don't think there is one. The game is the game and there will always be those that are going to cry about "you don't play the way I want you too". Nothing will ever fix it.
So, just play the game !
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Originally posted by Stoney74
but I'm talking about a perception from those of an opposing view point than yours. I'm not an apologist for the War Winners, just trying to flesh out a point. Those that fight the war are looking for a different kind of combat than those that furball--agreed? But, it is still combat, just of a different variety.
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This statement highlights the play-my-way aspect of the win the war side of this argument. While you may not subscribe to either viewpoint, you are articulating theirs.
Let's look at this.
All things in the game are in there to foster combat. Period. That simple fact is right from the keyboard of the designer/inventor/programmer.
Further, no one form of combat is any more justified, appropriate or approved than any other. Combat is the goal; all combat, any combat. Again, this if from the keyboard of the designer/inventor/programmer.
Therefore, it is clearly an error of perception for war winners to think that somehow their form of combat, their effort to play the game they wish to play it deserves or requires any special consideration or support from any other player in the game. The mechanics of the MA actually have no bearing on that simple fact.
It's just not so. To attempt to portray it as such is simply play-my-way sour grapes.
some arguments of the Furball crowd can come off as a bit cavalier towards those that want to fight the war simply because of the fact that some of the mechanics of the MA's don't affect furballing as they do the war-fighters
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Again, forgive me for repeating this simple fact over and over, the mechanics of the MA are only there to engender combat. Further, no particular form of combat (furball, war winning) is more worthy or justified or acceptable or the goal than any other.
So actually, the mechanics of the MA affect combat... all combat, any combat... and that's their only intent. To say they affect one form of combat more or less than another completely misses the point. As long as the mechanics of the MA engender combat, they are correctly serving their purpose.
Everyone is free to choose their own form of fun. The mechanics of the MA are immaterial because winning the war is immaterial. Again, the goal is NOT to win the war. The goal is to promote combat and hence fun
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This whole idea that somehow the war winners have some divine right to special consideration because of their holy quest to win the war is simply (as our Brit friends would say) bollocks.
It's about combat and hence fun. PERIOD.
Until the war winners accept the fact that their particular quest for fun is no more and no less justified than any other fun seeking, this problem will remain.
For emphasis: It's NOT about winning the war. It's about combat and fun.
To me, it seems that currently the game supports furballing in the DA, with war-fighting in the MA. But, that's just my opinion.
Indeed, it is your opinion and a perfect example of what I just stated.
You are entitled to your opinion but HiTech himself has pointed out that you are wrong.
One more time:
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quote:
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Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.
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This is a false assumption.
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
HiTech CLEARLY states that the designed game parameters are NOT "to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game".
He tells you THIS IS A FALSE ASSUMPTION.
He goes on to explain that this game is about having fun at different types of combat, about having fun THROUGH combat.
That's it. That's all. People keep trying to make it into something else but there's the designer's intent. Accept it. Be at peace with it.
Furballing and War-fighting are not sole designs goals in either the MA or the DA. They are merely types of fun engendered by combat.
That's all the deeper this entire question has to go.
Now, as to why the DA is not and never will be the same as a good fur in the MA... that's a different thread, but I assure you it is true.
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Their are basically two types of players.......
Those interested in the process
And those interested in the result.
Process oriented folks enjoy themselves by doing what they find fun.
Results oriented folks only have fun when they achieve the result. They use whatever means they feel will achieve the result because they don't have any fun UNTIL they achieve the result.
If HTC coded pain felt by the player = winning the war, the results oriented folks would spend the evening skinning themselves with catfish pliers and salting the wounds.
Process oriented players simply do what is fun and disregard the result. Of course, most of these folks desire a particular personal result (survival) and may even desire teammates to survive but they don't really care about any result further derived than the immediate goal of enjoying the moment.
Neither side can ever convince the other so it is pretty pointless to even try.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I understand where your coming from, but your blinding yourself. OK lets say we have your senerio in numbers, BUT HTC has a "furball" arena and a "base capture" arena.
In the "Furball" arena we have 80 x 60 x 60, and
In the "base capture" arena we have 20 x 40 x 40
The 20 "win the war" people are still whining about the numbers, but now they have no one to blame. So spliting won't help the base capture folks EVER, and the furball people just want to be able to fight, and couldn't care less about the "split"
That's why I said "perceived" inequality.
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Originally posted by Toad
This statement highlights the play-my-way aspect of the win the war side of this argument. While you may not subscribe to either viewpoint, you are articulating theirs.
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Well, that's what I was trying do. I was trying to articulate it rationally, so the feather ruffling would stop, and the discussion could continue.
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Toad.....we have to setup a day and time to do what we did last week.
For those who don't know what we did, we went to midwar arena, several of us infact and just fought. Max ceiling was 5K and any plane in the mid arena was fine. We had two sides and just fought even matches.....if there was a 1 on 1 we let them fight it out, no one dove in to aide. When one or two more aircraft arrived then it became a 2 on 2, 3 on 3 etc.
I realize for some of us this is fun and for others it isn't. I too sometimes furball, help capture bases etc. Depends on what is fun for me at that time.
Your money.....spend it the way you wish.
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Skuzzy Hajo hijacked my thread. Please kick him out of the game forever. Thank you.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Toad.....we have to setup a day and time to do what we did last week.
For those who don't know what we did, we went to midwar arena, several of us infact and just fought. Max ceiling was 5K and any plane in the mid arena was fine. We had two sides and just fought even matches.....if there was a 1 on 1 we let them fight it out, no one dove in to aide. When one or two more aircraft arrived then it became a 2 on 2, 3 on 3 etc.
If you guys do set this up, would you please start a new thread so some of us rookies who like the mid war plane set can see it and join in ?? It sounds like fun, and I might as well be a target in MW as well as LW :D
Thanks
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Originally posted by Hajo
Toad.....we have to setup a day and time to do what we did last week.
Wednesday @ 8 PM Central?
Counteroffer?
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Toad 8PM Central 9PM Eastern.....let's get the word out. Weds. it is!
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Count me in!
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Count me in too (if you don't mind a no skill noob joining in). Maybe I can learn something too, I know the A6M5b is a good plane in the right hands, those hands just aren't mine:)
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Ghosth! Great! Spread the word......like to get some more gentlemen involved!
Duddini we would most certainly enjoy your company!
We all learn a great deal during these "mini" events! :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Stupid that over half your team is obsessed with something else, totally ignoring the fact that the rest of the rather sizable team could use them (not even anywhere specific, just NUMBERS to help counter the enemy).
I like the idea that this would be separate from the LWAs, because then this wouldn't happen. All those in the LWAs would be able to put pressure on the other teams in whatever way they wish, but wouldn't end up shafting their countrymates (now especially with ENY!) because they wanted to play something else.
If this were in a separate arena (as suggested in this thread) it would be the best of both worlds, IMO!
You should stop posting and remove all doubt.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Toad 8PM Central 9PM Eastern.....let's get the word out. Weds. it is!
:furious Euro friendly times!!!! :furious
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Originally posted by Max
Given the 9 months time since you've changed the arena format, it's been pretty well established that the EW + MW arenas are usually populated by low numbers of players. The EW is generally a mish mosh of milkrunners, and those who enjoy killing them. :D Mid-war seems to see a little more dogfiting but really not that much.
Nothwithstanding the never-ending gripes about LW hordes in Blue and Orange, there seems to be a genuine desire from those who seek pure dogfighting. To that end I would suggest combining the EW and MW arenas into one and replacing the void with a pure and simple air combat venue. No GV's, no bombers, no "war to win" just a map a la Donut with half a dozen bases for each chess piece to up from. It could be done with a rolling plane set or all aircraft; your call.
My guess is something like that would make a lot of folks happy. Worth a try on an experimental basis, no?
yes.....EW and MW areans are lightly populated....but...........yo u also can find a fight at only 5k to 7k alt. no need to go to 25k alt to avoid being Bn Z'd....or to catch the bombers that are leveling ur base. some of you LW guys might find the EW planes fun too......i've seen a few of ya in there time to time(and gotten my arse kicked too by yas):rofl .
as for the hordes......well, even in EW and MW, there ends up being as much of a horde as there can be considering the numbers in there.
the fights are fun, and very diverse in there..........would be nice to see some more try these two arenas.
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Originally posted by Geary420
What joo talkin bout Willis?!??! SOAP pwnz, everyone knows dis.
SOAP leaves the arena when there's more than 4 HIRED GUNS on:D
:lol
:D :noid :noid
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I would like Fighter Town. I dont care what alt. Etc. Just a lot of tgts in the air.
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