Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ROC on June 13, 2007, 12:55:08 PM
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It seems that once you take the spit and polish off of environmental spin, you always end up with the hard facts.
This article from May 9, 2007 nearly verbatim duplicates a discussion I held at a round table during our general plan discussions some 10 years ago. I was arguing in favor of expanding our roadway system instead of the over inflated and always subsidized bloated expansion of our public transportation system.
This argument was not well received, and I am glad it's still being shown.
Prius Vs the Hummer (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188)
Oh, but you just Feel so much better if you buy a Prius, cause it comes with that oh so sought after Feel Good Label.
My argument didn't use the Hummer, it used my 1993 Full Size Chevy Van conversion as the example, which I still drive for vacations.
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ROC works for "big oil"
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Also, Honda will stop making Accord V6 Hybrids. They will switch to (cleaner) diesel, just like their Euro counterparts.
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Hmmm... NASA went to Sudbury during the Apollo program, yes, but they did so because of the Sudbury Basin impact crater.
So... blah, blah blah... and then quote:
When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.
Nice conclusion... completely devoid of any real facts.
This article is a waste of your time.
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Sandy is right, and the article has been debunked.
Google "Prius vs hummer myth".
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Originally posted by Ferndale
Jeremy Clarkson exposed how crap the Prius was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JDiiXr57KQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfguxvWPRZE
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Only men who have been castrated would choose a prius over the hummer.
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Originally posted by Laurie
Only men who have been castrated would choose a prius over the hummer.
Um... a motor vehicle is not a noodle extension.
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For sandman: -
Castration, gelding, neutering, orchiectomy or orchidectomy is any action, surgical, chemical or otherwise, by which a biological male loses use of the testes. This causes sterilization, i.e. prevents them from reproducing; it also greatly reduces the production of certain hormones, such as testosterone. It should not be confused with penectomy, which is the whole or partial removal of the noodle.
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i'm going to get myself a 1967 cadillac eldorado convertable, hot pink, with whale skin hub caps and big brown baby seal eyes for head lights.
and i'm going to drive around in that baby getting 3 miles per gallon suckin down quarter pounder cheeseburgers from mcdonalds in the old fashioned nonbiodegradable styrofoam containers, and when im done suckin down those greaseball burgers i'm gonna wipe my mouth with the american flag and throw the styrofoam containers right out the side! :aok
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Originally posted by 1K3
Also, Honda will stop making Accord V6 Hybrids. They will switch to (cleaner) diesel, just like their Euro counterparts.
Cleaner than what, coal? Diesels are terrible polluters.
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For Furball...
You missed the point.
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Originally posted by megadud
i'm going to get myself a 1967 cadillac eldorado convertable, hot pink, with whale skin hub caps and big brown baby seal eyes for head lights.
and i'm going to drive around in that baby getting 3 miles per gallon suckin down quarter pounder cheeseburgers from mcdonalds in the old fashioned nonbiodegradable styrofoam containers, and when im done suckin down those greaseball burgers i'm gonna wipe my mouth with the american flag and throw the styrofoam containers right out the side! :aok
Thus sayeth Denis Leary. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
For Furball...
You missed the point.
Sorry...
I just felt like being a jerk, i did find that quite funny :)
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Originally posted by L'EMMERDEUR
Cleaner than what, coal? Diesels are terrible polluters.
they get easily 10+ higher mpg than gas, and that probably offsets the difference with modern engines and low sulfur diesel.
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Originally posted by L'EMMERDEUR
Cleaner than what, coal? Diesels are terrible polluters.
Um ... no. At least not modern European diesels as they are required by law to run the exhaust through both a catalytic converter and a particle filter. The particle dust was the main problem with older diesels.
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"we need to end our dependence on foreign oil"
"the prius is a sissy girly man car"
what does not fit here?
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(http://www.grimsreapers.com/images/hybrid.jpg)
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Originally posted by Furball
Sorry...
I just felt like being a jerk, i did find that quite funny :)
:D
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Originally posted by 1K3
Also, Honda will stop making Accord V6 Hybrids. They will switch to (cleaner) diesel, just like their Euro counterparts.
I thought they were dropping the Accord Hybrid because it wasn't making its sales quotas vs. the Camry Hybrid...
I'm excited to see more diesels on the way though...
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I really want an Alfa Romeo Brera JTD M-Jet 2.4 Diesel, 200BHP, 400NM Torque, 41.5 MPG, ...
http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_brera.shtml
(or i would settle for a Alfa Spider :))
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So when the local soccer mom t bones you in her SUV would you rather be driving a Prius or a Hummer?
All else aside, physics are still physics, I'll take my chances in my 2 ton Commander. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Um... a motor vehicle is not a noodle extension.
For some it is.
Makes em feel more "Manly"
IMO unless you actually do offroading.
Only men with smaller endowments would own a Hummer.
Unfortunately. For every 10 Hummers I see in the road. Only one of em looks like its ever seen more then an occasional pothole
Same thing for these yoyos that HAVE to have and drive that big ol Pickup truck but never use it for anything other then a once a year hunting trip.
Makes em feel bigger
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Originally posted by MrBill
So when the local soccer mom t bones you in her SUV would you rather be driving a Prius or a Hummer?
All else aside, physics are still physics, I'll take my chances in my 2 ton Commander. ;)
I have Commander to (well my wife does). Very nice ride & I would definately want to be in it during a Prius/Commander collision.
That 5.7L hemi sure does suck down gas though.
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Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
smells like a steak and seats thirty five.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
Well it goes real slow with the hammer down,
it's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown.
Canyonaro-whoa, Canyonaro,
The federal highway commission has ruled the Canyonaro unsafe for highway or city driving.
Canyonaro.
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
sixty five tonnes of American pride.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
She blinds everybody with her super high beams,
she's a squirrel squasher, deer smacking, driving machine.
Canyonaro-whoa, Canyonaro.
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I'll believe the article. Too many people don't take into account the energy cost of producing new vehicles when they re-lease every couple years.
Still, what's the effect of the fuel usage over the lifetime of the vehicle in terms of overall energy expenditure of the vehicle? The article does not take this into account at all.
I'll NEVER drive a hummer. There's no point whatsoever. Prius's may be crap, but that doesn't mean a hummer is good. Give me a CJ any day, it'll go places a hummer will never fit. At least the hummers still retain a decent off-roading potential. The H2 is one of the most laughable vehicles on the road. Parked next to one in Florida once, and on close inspection our rental CAR had more ground clearance.
If you never get off the road at all you have no business driving a hummer, escalade, or any of those other bloated and worthless '4x4s'. Leave the trucks to people who know how to use them, and have a good reason.
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Escalades don't belong off road... this just in. ;)
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Escalades don't belong anywhere but the scrap heap.
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That 5.7L hemi sure does suck down gas though.
Hehehe, only had it for 4 months. So far I have been ecstatic with the mileage, but that is being compared to the 30 odd year old Ford 4wd it replaced. With 280,000 miles on it the Ford V8 was getting 12.5 on a good day.
I really wanted a LR Defender Diesel wagon but they make one jump through way to many hoops to get one in the U.S.
Pic of land rover
(http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/08/51028-1--12-lr-.jpg)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Um... a motor vehicle is not a noodle extension.
I tried to explain that to JB88. He still thinks they are.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Um... a motor vehicle is not a noodle extension.
To Some, It surely is.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Same thing for these yoyos that HAVE to have and drive that big ol Pickup truck but never use it for anything other then a once a year hunting trip.
Dam straight!
They should just load up all the camping gear and go elk hunting in the Rockies in a Prius! They can strap the elk over the hood/roof/trunk and haul it back too.
Not only that, if they try, they can stuff 4 guys and 4 dogs into an Accord and go for a 2 week pheasant hunt.
Some people just don't care about saving the world!
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Originally posted by Furball
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
smells like a steak and seats thirty five.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
Well it goes real slow with the hammer down,
it's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown.
Canyonaro-whoa, Canyonaro,
The federal highway commission has ruled the Canyonaro unsafe for highway or city driving.
Canyonaro.
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
sixty five tonnes of American pride.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts.
Canyonaro, Canyonaro,
She blinds everybody with her super high beams,
she's a squirrel squasher, deer smacking, driving machine.
Canyonaro-whoa, Canyonaro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQv16CMgxOY
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Originally posted by Toad
Dam straight!
They should just load up all the camping gear and go elk hunting in the Rockies in a Prius! They can strap the elk over the hood/roof/trunk and haul it back too.
Not only that, if they try, they can stuff 4 guys and 4 dogs into an Accord and go for a 2 week pheasant hunt.
Some people just don't care about saving the world!
Hey I think I got one!
(http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~y-ogura/hyper/ayu8.gif)
Awwwe its just another ummm "little" one
Haveta throw him back:D
;)
For that once a year trip
ever hear of renting?
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Originally posted by Furball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JDiiXr57KQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfguxvWPRZE
tasmanian fruit bat will be save...
:lol
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Hey I think I got one!
(http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~y-ogura/hyper/ayu8.gif)
Awwwe its just another ummm "little" one
Haveta throw him back:D
;)
For that once a year trip
ever hear of renting?
I've heard of it. I don't know anyone that rents F-250 Crew Cabs, 4wd, shortbed, dog kennel installed in the back w/trailer package to tow camper that will rent one without charging an amazing non-refundable damage charge and an incredibly high daily + mileage rate.
Further, renting for 30-50 days every Fall makes buying one an absolute steal.
Looks like your hook is firmly embedded in the head of your weiner. G/l with that.
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Originally posted by Toad
I've heard of it. I don't know anyone that rents F-250 Crew Cabs, 4wd, shortbed, dog kennel installed in the back w/trailer package to tow camper that will rent one without charging an amazing non-refundable damage charge and an incredibly high daily + mileage rate.
Further, renting for 30-50 days every Fall makes buying one an absolute steal.
Looks like your hook is firmly embedded in the head of your weiner. G/l with that.
Not really.
If you reread my post carefully. You will see I said
"Once a year"
If your using it for 30-50 days. I'd say thats a little bit more then once a year.
Now if your an avid hunter, odds are you use it for more then just the occasionnal hunting trip
Im talking about the yoyos that literally will only get use of it maybe once time a year.
they are easyt o spot.
the bed never has so much as a scuff mark on it let alone a scratch.
I see em all the time.
As for the hook in my weiner. Its no problem.
I never have to worry about packing a fishing rod.
I see what looks like a good place to fish. I just pull over,unzip and cast it wherever I like
sometimes I even paint it fancy colors and attach spinner blades to it.
Then I can fish it any way I like.
I can run it along the surface fast or just drag it along the bottom
;)
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68.. I agree that many suv's and pickups are not used as intended or even that some are useless.. to me.. your car is useless but..
The way I feel about it.. why not just let everyone decide what they want to drive and mind our own business?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
68.. I agree that many suv's and pickups are not used as intended or even that some are useless.. to me.. your car is useless but..
The way I feel about it.. why not just let everyone decide what they want to drive and mind our own business?
lazs
For the same reason we dont like when illegal's come here and get free medical care
the same reasons we dont like the fact that there are people who refuse to get a job and are just content in collecting welfare.
It places an un needed and un warranted burden financially on the rest of us.
And Driving is a privilege. NOT a right
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huh? I have no idea what any of that meant. driving is not a privilidge unless you make it one with laws.
How is an suv driver hurting me? He is paying his own way. He is not an illegal (or at least that has nothing to do with it)
How is he hurting me? How is it any of my business? Let him drive what he wants... he is paying the fuel bill and the taxes and he is the one maintaining the thing.
I don't care if you drive a prius or a jeep or an suv.. I don't want any of those vehicles but it is not my right to tell you that you can't have one.
You can also drive anything you want on private property it is not a privilidge... nothing in the constitution says that driving is the right of the government to be doled out to the rest of us at its whim.
lazs
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And Driving is a privilege. NOT a right
only because the govt said so. The govt wants it that way so they can have more control over you.
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Originally posted by lazs2
huh? I have no idea what any of that meant. driving is not a privilidge unless you make it one with laws.
How is an suv driver hurting me? He is paying his own way. He is not an illegal (or at least that has nothing to do with it)
How is he hurting me? How is it any of my business? Let him drive what he wants... he is paying the fuel bill and the taxes and he is the one maintaining the thing.
I don't care if you drive a prius or a jeep or an suv.. I don't want any of those vehicles but it is not my right to tell you that you can't have one.
You can also drive anything you want on private property it is not a privilidge... nothing in the constitution says that driving is the right of the government to be doled out to the rest of us at its whim.
lazs
Right vs Privilege- Just found some really interesing info on this that may disprove my claim on one hand. But also prove my point on the other. More on this later
He is hurting you by increased fuel demand. This increasing fuel prices for everyone (supply and demand)
Again. More on this later
Problems on a jobsite to attend to right now.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I can run it along the surface fast or just drag it along the bottom
;)
Whatever you say; if you like to fish shallow 1/4" deep puddles... well, that's your choice I guess.
:)
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Lazs, I really think arguing the constitutionality of auto driving is a stretch.
What car do I drive and why do you hate it?
I wouldn't ever stop someone from looking like a tool in an escalade with low profile tires and no clearance, but I'm just saying if they want to get a truck they should get a real one.
Drediock said it best.
Rights vs privilege? I guess my thinking on it is that one has an inherent privilege to operate a motor vehicle (on public roads, private property is still just that), providing that they are educated in its use and responsible. If they do some stupid crap like Paris Hilton they deserve to get their license taken, and they lose their privilege.
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what the hell is an inherent priviledge?
some kind of 1984 newspeak... I would say driving is a right so long as you are not a danger to others and pay your way.
dred.. that is the silliest thing I have heard here since beetle used his own handle.... You are saying the suv driver is hurting us by using up the fuel? That he is hurting us in the pocket book? that is absurd. Even if it were true.. he has every right to buy anything he wants and do with it as he pleases..
By your logic.. no one has any right to drive any vehicle except for emergencies or to help you? if it burns fuel for a need you don't agree with then you can vote on his right to do so?
fat people cost us money in health care... hikers get lost and cost millions to find... parachutists die and cost us a fortune... those things... are they "privileges" or as 68 says... "inherent privilege"
What the hell is wrong with you busybodies? Don't you have a frigging life of your own?
lazs
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He's got a point. Where does the free market stop?
While soccer moms in Excursions are burning WAY more gas than they ever need to, telling them they can't goes against our economic system. Where does it end?
Still, I never said stop them, I said they suck.
Inherent privilege is probably a bad term, but I was looking for something more than privilege but still with some conditionality. A right can't be revoked, or shouldn't. Some people aren't responsible enough to be driving on public roads.
Dude, please don't ask me if I have a life when you spend more time posting on these forums than any one else.
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68... noo... there is right and there is priviledge. no gray area.
I didn't say that you said stop em from driving suvs.. I meant was meaning dred.
still.. posting during coffee and lunch may mean not having a life... I don't think so but.. maybe to an extent... worrying about other peoples lives and how they live them and voting to restrict them most certainly denotes not having a life tho.
I agree that some people should not be on the same roads as the rest of us... bad drivers.. pot heads.. drunks... they are endangering others willfully. that does not mean that they should not be allowed cause dred doesn't like their car choice.
I will go so far as to say you should not lose your licence for tickets that do not endanger the public or can be proven to be dangerous or more dangerous than is acceptable. Me driving 100mph is far less dangerous to everyone than my last ex wife driving 50mph for instance... yet.. she will never get a ticket.
lazs
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I agree.
So driving on public roads is a privilege, and driving on private property can be considered a right.
Still, the argument that it affects others does carry some weight, at least conceptually. It comes down to a matter of degree. Encouraging people away from cars that make no practical sense with economic incentives seems a good way without purely prohibitive legislation.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
I'll believe the article. Too many people don't take into account the energy cost of producing new vehicles when they re-lease every couple years.
Still, what's the effect of the fuel usage over the lifetime of the vehicle in terms of overall energy expenditure of the vehicle? The article does not take this into account at all.
The article is most probably accurate, but incomplete. Hybrids are still new tech and not widely in use among the overall fleet. The batteries also are a big environmental issue.
But, the article does not take into account economics of scale or potential recycling opportunities for hybrids in the future. It's not so much Prius vs Hummer, but Hybrids and Alternative Powered Vehicles vs traditional gas and diesel fueled vehicles. How much of a hybrid car is recyclable or can be refurbished? If most of it is, it's environmental footprint comes down a bit.
I still like the idea of more Hybrids, Synthetic fuels, biofuels, and rechargeables, as anything that reduces our dependence on oil from places like the Middle East, Africa, and South America is a good thing for national interests, national security (as much oil money flows to anti-western interests), ultimately the environment, and the general health of citizens (especially in larger cities).
To actually see any benefit from hybrids will take time for hybrids and the like to become the main stream in general use.
So, articles like the one linked is true, to a point, but does a disservice to the big picture and future possibilities.
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Are there other hybrids that actually do get the good gas mileage, lifespan and don't cost so much ecologically to produce?
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This thread reminds me of a joke...
A father and his 4 year old son were driving to the market one day and the son asks 'Dad, why do some people have big cars and some don't'?
The father says, 'That's because some guys have small noodlees, so they buy a big car to make up for it.'
Thinking that that answered his question they drove on.
As they parked in the market parking lot the son spots a new Hummer and rushes over to have a good look. While he was standing and stareing in awe of the size of the behemoth before him the owner walks up and opens the door. As he gets in he says to the boy 'What do you think of my new Hummer'?
The boy looks up and without hesitation he says 'You must have a really, really small noodle.'
I just wonder what he would have said if it was a woman driver :P
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No whining here. The memories from back home in Yoorup are still too fresh.
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Ok here is the quote I was going to use
" "Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with the public interest and convenience . - Chicago Motor Coach v Chicago 169 NE 22"
From this link
Driving a right not a privilege (http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/DrivingRight.html)
Interesting read. But I am going to stop short of claiming it to be a legitimate source.
Just something about it to me doesnt seem completely kosher
But if it is,what what I can tell it says
Anyone who has been told its a right and yet aqquired a licence from the state anyway. Gives up that right and it is now a privelige..if that makes sense LOL
so Laz. If you;ve always been told its your right to drive and yet you still you have a drivers licence. Youve waved that right. And now only have a diveing privilege.
Whereas "I" have always been told its a privelege. Therefore I have had my right to drive illegally taken from me thus making any government claims revoking or restricting my driving "privileges" invalid or downright unconsitutional
Furthermore. If we are to take whats on this site as completely valid.
If your a police officer and yoru handing out tickets for no licence,Insurance, Registration etc.
You should not be doing so. Because in doing so you are violating a persons consitutional rights which is a felony for you to do so
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;.shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary not withstanding". (This tells us that the U.S.
Constitution is to be upheld over any state, county, or city Laws that are in opposition to it.)
In the same Article it goes on to say just who it is within our governments that is bound by this Supreme Law:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;". - ART. 6 U.S. CONST.
We know that Police officers, are a part of the Executive branch. We are "Executive Officers".
Article 6 above, is called the SUPREMACY CLAUSE, and it clearly states that, under every circumstance, the above listed officials in these United States must hold this documents tenets supreme over any other laws, regulations, or orders. Every U.S. Police officer knows that they have sworn a oath to the people of our nation that we will not only protect their lives and property, but, that we will uphold, and protect their freedoms and rights under the Supreme laws of this nation, - the U. S. Constitution.
In this regard then, we must agree that those within government that restrict a Citizens rights, (such as restricting the peoples right to travel,) are acting in violation of his or her oath of office and are actually committing a crime against such Citizens. Here's an interesting question. Is ignorance of these laws an excuse for such acts by officials? If we are to follow the "letter of the law (as we are sworn to do), this
places officials that involve themselves in such unlawful acts in an unfavorable legal situation. For it is a felony and federal crime to violate, or deprive citizens of their constitutionally protected rights.
Like I said. and interesting read but something just doesnt seem right about it.
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dred.. something is not right about almost all our laws... that "something" is that most of em are either skirting the intent or downright violating the constitution.
That is the reality we have to live with... why help the politicians make it worse tho.
68... you say we should "encourage" people to drive more fuel efficient cars. Excuse me for sounding like a broken record but what exactly does that mean?
Does that mean.. every time I see someone filling up an suv I should say to them "hey. you could save a lot of money if you were filling up some uncomfortable dangerous pos."
You need to be a little more precise for me. I say that the fuel prices are the only "encouragement" we need..
The "scientists" in the 80's told us that if gas got to $1.75 a gallon that the demand would drop to the point where it would not be a problem to produce all we ever needed.
Let people spend money on what they think is important and set their own priorities.
lazs
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beetle/ferndale/lambchop.... this is getting silly again.
You are doing the same things you used to do in that you are using multiple handles and agreeing with yourself... it is tacky.
I think it proves that you can't win honestly. It is thinking that just because these tactics didn't work last time doesn't mean they won't work this time.
You are correct to some extent tho... the more fuel we use the sooner we will get a solution. Need drives innovation.
lazs
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Although. If you loook at this police Bulliton board.
Overwhelmingly. they claim its a privilege. NOT a right
http://forums.realpolice.net/showthread.php?t=34904 (http://forums.realpolice.net/showthread.php?t=34904)
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with any luck we will never get to the point where the police make or interpret constitutional law.
lazs