Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Laurie on June 13, 2007, 02:46:20 PM
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I am here to enlighten into the liberal devolpment within britain and i am very keen to have a listen to what the situation is like in the U.S. compared to what i will explain in a moment.
Wether any fellow brits within the BB's will back my opinions here up im not sure, they may appear a bit to far right to some, who knows.
I feel very strongly that Britain is losing it's Britishness to immigration, civil rights and health& gone over board.
More than 50% of a GCSE Students course is based on Islam and Hinduism, the other 45% or so on social issues, What happened to christianity, The LARGEST religion in the world and the LARGEST in britain and its remaining colonies. Labour seems to have brought a new tide of 'soscial equalities; init bruv ' and we seem to be bending over backwards for refugee's, immigrants; legal and ILLEGAL, and people of other nationalities. I think its is a disgrace the number of papers and bussiness documents that are now translated into languages like polish and arabic because the people who have come to live in OUR country have not been bothered to learn OUR language on such a large scale.
I find it an utter disgrace that i was forced to spend 3 x 1 hour lessons learning about the islamic idea of 'ji-had' It almost makes me feel sick that we spent (wasted) this much time on the subject which has cost the lives of so many innocent lives across the globe just so we appaer politically correct, this is while a saudi arabian funded college in north london uses text-books containg scripture heckling jews and christians, and i quote " the Christians are the pigs and Jews are the Devil" It makes my guts wrench, we give these people the right to live in our country to teach this utter crap and tripe in text books to young islamic students. I know what i would do to the editor and the headteacher, pay for a flight to take them back to whereever they came from and to never return.
Don't forget some of these people and languages are from countries of which thier leader speaks of the holocaust as a myth and does not accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel and that it "should be wiped off the map".
It appears that Tony blair and his goverment feels ridiculously scared to upset a minority and has forgotten some of the more British values. We now have a society which is full of stabbings and gun crime, and the rate of it is climbing. Britain was once the best place in the world, with the best people and a leader on the world stage, we as a nation used to stand up to anything , anysize in order to protect our humble islands, now we cower away from the threat of pathetic law suits.
I repeatedly see in the news, anti-white injustices, here is an example. About a year ago there was white man sitting on a bus with his girl friend. A black teenager was throwing chips at them continually after repeated requests to stop, so the Man who was with his girl friend went over to him and asked him face to face to please stop it, what happened next was a tradegy, the teenager took out a knife and stabbed him repeatedly in the chest. There was not much really thought of the issue.
less than a week later a white youth stabbed and seriously injured a black youth in a night club after an arguement over a girl. There was absoloute uproar within the press, the white youth was heckled as racist and mauled with negative comments.
I am by no means trying to stand up for anyone who commits a crime but, notice the difference in attitude, a black youth stabs a man because he asked him to stop throwing chips at them, nothing was said, i believe out of fear, people seem to be scared of criticising any non-white person due to fear of the 'race-card.' yet when its a white man, o yes out come the mouths and now its a dreadful thing( yes it is but can you see my point?)
I am by no means in favour of the BNP or racism. But when i see things like this i feel compelled to raise an eyebrow or too. It seems in britain we seem scared to upset the people who are here only on our(the governments and electorates) allowance. More and more anscestoraly british people are leaving and now cities like liecester and birmingham are over 50% black. White people are now becoming a minority in places which are their traditionally homeland.
For god's sake we offer councelling for children who are told they are wrong in class and make children playing conkers wear frigging safety googles for christ's sake.
Has something gone wrong here? i ask myself.
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Christianity is only the largest religion in the world in terms of revenue. Scientology may eclipse them in the future, but that doesn't count as a religion an more than any other literary genre.
If you don't understand the merits of a liberal arts education, drop out. If you need the benefit of learning about other ways of life explained to you I'm not sure how you got into college. Education is supposed to challenge your beliefs, and to challenge you to defend them.
If you don't recognize why its important to study one's enemy and their methods, please stay away from conflict. If you had paid attention in class, you would know that a true conception of Jihad is much more complicated than, 'kill all non Muslims'. You might find out that there are many secular Muslims that are as aghast at intolerant theological teaching as you claim to be.
"White people are now becoming a minority in places which are their traditionally homeland."
If someone is black and born in Britain, is it not their homeland? It's really more about how they themselves choose to identify. If they want to call themselves British, who are you to tell them the aren't? As long as they eat porridge, drink warm beer, ascribe to democratic monarchism and complain about things with a snooty accent, don't they fit the bill?
The truth: They wouldn't be there, and Britain wouldn't be half the economy that it is, if not for Britain's own bastardly treatment of the world in years past. You are grappling with the legacy of your own country's actions, much as the US is now. I always find it funny when Europeans say, "OMG look at all the black people around me!" I don't care if they're pink with purple polka dots, they're still people.
Welcome to the 21st century.
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i largely agree with laurie on some of his points, there is definitely an inverse racism in our country.
i myself am very liberal on some issues, but quite far right on some of the issues mentioned. i hate racism, which means i really can't stand political correctness. people have forgotten what it means to be british. there are no more manners, no more dignity, much of britain is a total disgrace atm.
the sad thing is, all our politicians are USELESS. the only ones who really stand up for britain are all out nazi wankstains. the others are all about trying to please everyone.
it's a tough issue, but i really feel you on some points laurie. round my house EVERY other shop is a halal butcher or some other shop with an only-arabic banner. i love london's multiculturalism, but when you get outright rude somalian women in supermarkets, who scrounge off benefits, and who's somalian rudeboy sons mug 5-10 people each night, what the f*ck are we meant to do? it's about time someone really stood up for this country. right now we're a pack of idiots following the words of even bigger idiot politicians...
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not to mention abyssmal spelling and punctuation practices.
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glad some of you brits are getting fed up.. I had about given up on the whole damn little island.
lazs
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Frankly, when you do a course called Religious Studies, it is a bit foolish to expect there to be only a little time spent on other religions. Islam and Hinduism are huge religions.
BTW, I did GCSE Religious Studies in 1994 and it sounds like the sylabus was pretty much the same. Does that mean Britain was slipping into the abyss back then too? Was it more liberal then? Remember a Conservative government was in power.
I enjoyed the course - ignorance is never something to be proud of, and I like learning about new perspectives.
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Laurie, you hurt your own argument when you mix race with Britishness. The point is not if an immigrant is black or arab, he can't change that - it's if he is british, adopts british culture and state laws. In many cases, they don't and form "little Pakistan", "little Lebanon" or what-have-you neiborhoods in the cities that eventually transform it. If they want to change instead of integrate, that if when the problem begins.
As for the studies, you probably know more than enough about cristianity and your british history. University is the place to learn things that are not about yourself and broaden your knowledge. This is not preaching, this is education. In a British-cristian country it makes much sense that the universities offer more courses about other religions/cultures.
Last point, when you speak of British values and tradition. While I value british culture above almost all others, you need to keep in mind that Britain was the most hated power in the world for most of the last few centuries (save a few years when Germany held the title). This is usually a surprise for most brits because they really don't think of themselves that way, but just check what was going on in your colonies even well into the 20th century. The "world" is not just white people by the way, far from it.
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Has something gone wrong here?
The solution is quite simple... Have more babies...
so for god and country get 'busy' with your wife and do your part to help out....
then do "it" again, and again, and again, and again...
:D
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Welcome to the poitical correctness disaster that the liberals created.
Dangerous people like 68hawk will belittle you as they look down their noses with their "progressive" attitude.
The 68Hawk's of the world may very well have won. I fear that we have seen the peak of humanity and that radical islam will drag us back into a world of violence and prejudice on a worldwide scale.
Notice 68hawk didn't discuss the white/black stabbings as it doesn't fit his agenda. Then he describes a black person attempting to assimilate into your country but he ignores that many immigrants refuse to do so. They want to change the country to their way of life, they care nothing for the their new home country's traditions or values and you are labeled a racist if you suggest they assimilate. For examples of this, look at the Mexican flag waving invaders in the US.
As 68hawk said, welcome to the 21st century. Enjoy the prosperity whilst you can. In another few generations, barring a huge shift in the political climate, world economic depression and spreading dominance of a religion stuck in the 5th century will be the norm. The leftists must be very pleased indeed.
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Originally posted by bozon
it's if he is british, adopts british culture and state laws.
The thing is they arent.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Frankly, when you do a course called Religious Studies, it is a bit foolish to expect there to be only a little time spent on other religions. Islam and Hinduism are huge religions.
I didnt have a choice wether or not to do it, it is compulsory at my school.
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Originally posted by storch
not to mention abyssmal spelling and punctuation practices.
Anything constructie now? or do you spend your life watching countdown storch?
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Originally posted by Laurie
Anything constructie now? or do you spend your life watching countdown storch?
You missed an opportunity to point out that his post begins with a gramatical error.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk If you don't understand the merits of a liberal arts education, drop out. If you need the benefit of learning about other ways of life explained to you I'm not sure how you got into college. Education is supposed to challenge your beliefs, and to challenge you to defend them.[/B]
Actually, there was a time not long ago that what you write Hawk was not so.
A liberal arts education was thought to be the foundation of entering into a discussion about important things that has been going on in the west since Plato.
Cardinal Newman's lectures, "The Idea of a University" (http://www.amazon.com/Idea-University-Illustrated-Discourses-Occasional/dp/0268011508) is in direct opposition to Huxley's "Scientific Education," during the 19th century and later Dewey's practical education in this country's last century.
What counts as a practical education or even a pseudo-scientific one (excluding the hard sciences some) has won the day. A bulwark of that point of view is the very recent changes in this country and elsewhere around the world that can fall under the general heading of "cultural relativisim."
Equality of people, equality of ideas, equality of manners etc . . .. Or at least that's the general drift.
It's an awful hodgepodge of falsehoods that has become a tool for those whose main object is to remove the underpinnings of western civilization. One of the best things written about it can be found in some printings of C. S. Lewis The Screwtape Letters in that book's final piece titled Screwtape Holds A Banquet. There Lewis exposes how damaging and false a misguided notion of "democracy" can be when it comes to education.
Proper education most certainly is NOT intended to challenge one's beliefs. It's purpose is to train one to live and do rightly.
Of course, if you trot that out on 98% of the colleges in America, you'll be hooted out of the place.
Nonetheless, what I right is true: to train one to live and do rightly. Pity it's been fouled up.
Here's an example of the results of a "faux-education." That is what is in reality a decidedly NON-liberal education passing as "liberal education" The essay is short, and will be of interest to many who post.
http://www.theamericancause.org/
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didnt have a choice wether or not to do it, it is compulsory at my school.
It was compulsory at my school too. I think that's a good thing.
Either way, my point still stands. I remember there was alot of other things covered too - like the Civil Rights movement, Gandhi and King. I think those are pretty important historical events to learn about in themselves.
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What better way is there to deamonize all religion?
Pick a radical one and SEEM to support, or allow it.................... until the time suites you to claim ALL religion is bad?
If you look at the religious based legal system of SOME Islamic countries you will probably consider those laws barbaric. Or at the very least repressive and totalatarian. Example womens rights. In that women pretty much don't have any.
Chirtianity, along with many other religions, WILL be compared to or included with the radical Islamic systems, and ALL religions will be deamonized.
The goal is a one world religion that will SEEM to be a non-religion.
Why do you think they want your firearms?
Don't worry relax it's for your own good........................
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Originally posted by Dowding
Either way, my point still stands. I remember there was alot of other things covered too - like the Civil Rights movement, Gandhi and King. I think those are pretty important historical events to learn about in themselves.
They are! It's "thinking" that is broken.
Facts are jiffy. They are useless without right deduction, inference, conclusions . . . in short "right reasoning."
Reasoning is useless unless there be brought under the leash of truth.
Truth being "that which is so."
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Originally posted by Hap
They are! It's "thinking" that is broken.
Facts are jiffy. They are useless without right deduction, inference, conclusions . . . in short "right reasoning."
Reasoning is useless unless there be brought under the leash of truth.
Truth being "that which is so."
And what happens when truth itself is in debate? You've just put your foot hugely into your mouth here.
A liberal arts education is supposed to introduce you to new ways of thinking, and you as the student are free to choose or reject them as you see academically fit. It is absolutely not a matter of 'learn this fact and believe how I say'. One must be exposed to things that are even wrong in order to understand them. Scholars can study Fascism without being fascists.
Are you bringing Pat Buchanon as an example of a biased and sculpted education? If so I agree.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
And what happens when truth itself is in debate? You've just put your foot hugely into your mouth here.
A liberal arts education is supposed to introduce you to new ways of thinking, and you as the student are free to choose or reject them as you see academically fit. It is absolutely not a matter of 'learn this fact and believe how I say'. One must be exposed to things that are even wrong in order to understand them. Scholars can study Fascism without being fascists.
Are you bringing Pat Buchanon as an example of a biased and sculpted education? If so I agree.
When were you last in college? or a higher learning establishment?
Word is they have CHANGED allot!
Not only with what is taught but HOW it is taught....................... .. free to reject? hmmmmmm...........
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its a lot alot/allot isnt a word..:aok
The Grammar monster stikes again
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Steve,
Wow, I'm just so dangerous, and I have an agenda?
Please quote me where I've ever supported radical Islam of any fashion. I haven't.
Please allow me to address the other examples that I previously neglected in the interest of concision.
It is a very good example of a problem when one case is made so much fuss about and another isn't, just because of the races of the people involved. Still, just because one immigrant stabs someone (no matter how heinously) it doesn't mean we can hold it against the whole immigrant population. I know people who have been killed by white people too. It does seem to alter the situation a little when the offender is transplanted from somewhere else, but it doesn't really. All people make bad choices.
Someone used the example of a rude Somali woman in a market and her bunch of kids that only rob people. I can find an American mom with 7 kids living in a trailer, cooking meth, who's kids will all go out and steal things in their time. Their ethnicity or heritage doesn't really change the situation. For every one rude immigrant I could find you two who are courteous. Better yet, for every one rude immigrant I could find you one Brit and one American who are rude.
So what we really have here is an issue of assimilation. The feeling that, 'they come over here, take our jobs and don't even want to be a part of our culture' is not unwarranted at all. To some extent I agree with that sentiment. I have no problem with signs being put up in multiple languages, especially safety signs, but when people make no effort to learn the language or culture that they are entering there is a problem. To some extent bilingual signs facilitate this. This is also a two way street between the immigrants and the absorbing culture. Too few immigrants are willing to break out of their 'little Pakistan', but also too few Americans and British are ready to accept them with open arms. It is much the same way in Germany with the Turks.
Two families of Mexicans live just down the hall from me. They are very nice, have jobs, work hard, and their kids are extremely well behaved. One of them has a really nice Mustang. They moved here legally in search of a better life, and they detract nothing from our society. Some punk downtown doesn't invalidate their contributions. Most people around here don't even talk to them, and they notice that. They've told me how nice it is that I say hi to them in passing, like a normal human being. The more I talk to them, the more they talk to me. Funny enough, they also like to live, love, learn and grow.
So, in America there is a growing population of people of Mexican heritage. Some came here, some were born here. Some choose to wave the Mexican flag to celebrate their heritage, and lately to protest the treatment they as citizens have been receiving (and to protest for immigration reform, but thats another issue). It is not an expression of Mexican Nationalism over American Citizenship.
I don't EVER hear people complaining on St Patrick's day when Irish flags are waved everywhere. Nor during Oktoberfest when German and Bavarian flags fly. Are those people trying to turn this country into their former ones? Is someone who is wearing a 'kiss me I'm Irish' shirt invading this country?
If you want to encourage cultural assimilation, you must first realize that your own culture is not immutable. Then you must realize that their own cultures and practices may offer positive things for you, just as yours does for them.
The best thing you can do is to go down to their neighborhood and say, "Hi, I'm just really curious about where you come from and what life is like there. Would you like to meet me in the park sometime for Tea and share some things with me?" This may sound really sappy, but by starting a conversation comparing your cultures, it opens them up for you to express yours as well. They can practice their English, and you might learn a little of their language (serving you well if you run into one of the delinquent people speaking that language).
Arbitrary political correctness is a problem in Western society, but don't confuse that with cultural objectivity. Too many people are quick to call something political correctness when they don't like what they hear.
I don't see how any of this supports radical ideologies or hoaky 7th century religions.
BTW I'm not a liberal.
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Originally posted by wrag
When were you last in college? or a higher learning establishment?
Word is they have CHANGED allot!
Not only with what is taught but HOW it is taught....................... .. free to reject? hmmmmmm...........
When? I just graduated Saturday actually. Been around here for a while.
I've never had a Prof refuse to let us disagree with them, as long as we justify ourselves. They may turn and say our line of argument doesn't work, but thats scholarship. I've actually been know to get on people's nerves for calling out Profs (with good justification), but when I'm right they have to accept it. When I'm wrong they love telling me, and why.
Some schools are far better than others at presenting a diversity of ideas objectively and encouraging critical thinking. Memorization and regurgitation are NOT critical thinking. Jerry Falwell's 'university' doesn't count as a balanced education.
Laurie if you wanted an education focused on the Christian world view you would have been better off in a seminary. Even so, Christianity's leaders also need to know about Islam and other religions. Their curriculum should include an accurate study of other religions' beliefs.
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There goes that left-wing / right-wing labeling again... :noid
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It's not necssearily supporting Radical of Islam that my quarells in this Thread. But more of the commonly occuring banding over back wards for people who have come here by choice, we owe no debt to them, if anything they are in ours.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Laurie if you wanted an education focused on the Christian world view you would have been better off in a seminary. Even so, Christianity's leaders also need to know about Islam and other religions. Their curriculum should include an accurate study of other religions' beliefs.
Since when was my post JUST about islam and christianity.
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Originally posted by Laurie
Since when was my post JUST about islam and christianity.
You're right, it wasn't. That was only a comment on your frustration with your education.
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laurie's post didn't appear to be 'i'm a white christian, everyone else bugger off' at all.
he was saying that many of britain's subcultures do not integrate, and do not abide by the law, which is unfortunately very true in our large cities.
there's a HUGE problem with black knife + gun gang crime, most of these guys aged 12-18. young black kids (plenty of white kids too) roam the streets looking for an easy victim to either rob or just murder for the fun of it. the problem is nothing to do with race, but the subculture. with a lot of the poor young black guys, their whole life is based around respect through violence and 'bling' which is usually all stolen, or paid for with stolen goods.
these are young BRITISH kids who are out of control, and our useless government (nor any of the useless parties) don't do anything. england is bad right now.
anywhere outside the fancy areas of london is dangerous after dark. luckily enough i don't get much trouble because i'm fairly tall and well built, but growing up i was always terrified coming home. it really is that bad.
but laurie, learning about other cultures is a good thing. just because a small percentage of wackjob muslims don't keep an open mind, doesn't mean you should become a fanatic and close yours. hate never solves anything, just look at bloody palestine and israel! think about getting into local politics too :)
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most of these guys aged 12-18. young black kids (plenty of white kids too) roam the streets looking for an easy victim to either rob or just murder for the fun of it
That is part of the problem in Britain not only in the black community
people say rich kids are born with a silver spoon in there mouths
with most of the "Benefits" that are dished out in the UK
the poor mans silver spoon is welfare they don't need an excuse to go out & find work
it's handed out every week by the social
@ 12 i was doing paper rounds mornings & evenings and on a saturday
worked 6 hours at the local slaughter house i didn't have time to hang around on street corners
I left the uk in 94 and used to head back as often as i can.
now my mother is lucky to see me once a year
you can't help but notice what a ****hole it's become.
my cousin is a good example the guy is either on the sofa or in the pub
if he needs anything he's at the social & 99% of the time he gets it. all he says is
"whats the point in working if you get it for free?"
if everyone has to WORK in theory they should HAVE to intergrate
with each other
Achmed WILL have to learn the language and won't get a free ride
and my cousin will have to get off his potato peelin lazy arse and talk to Achmed
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I agree!
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
laurie's post didn't appear to be 'i'm a white christian, everyone else bugger off' at all.
he was saying that many of britain's subcultures do not integrate, and do not abide by the law, which is unfortunately very true in our large cities.
there's a HUGE problem with black knife + gun gang crime, most of these guys aged 12-18. young black kids (plenty of white kids too) roam the streets looking for an easy victim to either rob or just murder for the fun of it. the problem is nothing to do with race, but the subculture. with a lot of the poor young black guys, their whole life is based around respect through violence and 'bling' which is usually all stolen, or paid for with stolen goods.
these are young BRITISH kids who are out of control, and our useless government (nor any of the useless parties) don't do anything. england is bad right now.
anywhere outside the fancy areas of london is dangerous after dark. luckily enough i don't get much trouble because i'm fairly tall and well built, but growing up i was always terrified coming home. it really is that bad.
but laurie, learning about other cultures is a good thing. just because a small percentage of wackjob muslims don't keep an open mind, doesn't mean you should become a fanatic and close yours. hate never solves anything, just look at bloody palestine and israel! think about getting into local politics too :)
I'm a member of the conservative party. and Ty for understanding the point i was trying to put across.
Personally i think we need another Churchill styled politician who people could trust and would feel that what he/she was doing would be in their best interests. A person to re-unite the population, no-one on the current political scene seems to be very patriotic or bothered with the subject, not even within the 'modern conservatives' although some of thier back benchers are still old-school tories. Hague, Howard and Boris Johnson (love that guy, what an absoloute joker) from the Shadow cabinet appear slightly more appealing to me personally than Camereon.
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We have the same problems here to.
A white person kills a minority, and the whole city knows about it and is reminded for weeks on end in the news. We're reminded of the injustice of it all, and how that white person is going to get 10x the normal sentence because it's a hate crime.
A minority kills a white person, and it's usually not even mentioned in the news, and if it is, race is left out completely.
I think that pisses off alot of people including good hard working minorities, because they are the ones who suffer the most from resentment. Unfortunately the good, assimilated american hard working minorities can't do a thing to help there own races wake up either.
I know a black guy that works in a body shop, who's brother was paralized in the 80's due to a drive by shooting, and he feels the same way. If idiots like sharpton, went out on a limb for a white victim as much as they do for a black victim, maybe people would respect minorities and new immigrants a little more.
I don't feel like writing a thesis on this, but i hope i got my point across.
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Originally posted by Laurie
I'm a member of the conservative party. and Ty for understanding the point i was trying to put across.
Personally i think we need another Churchill styled politician who people could trust and would feel that what he/she was doing would be in their best interests. A person to re-unite the population, no-one on the current political scene seems to be very patriotic or bothered with the subject, not even within the 'modern conservatives' although some of thier back benchers are still old-school tories. Hague, Howard and Boris Johnson (love that guy, what an absoloute joker) from the Shadow cabinet appear slightly more appealing to me personally than Camereon.
i used to be very conservative, but recently i have become a lot more liberal on SOME issues (the important ones, ie. freedom of speech, freedom in general, and drugs). the fact is that the tories are silly twits who care only about money and being voted in, both of which people hate, so they'll never get the chance. then you have labour, always trying to please everyone, and don't stand firm on anything. then you have the liberal democrats, the joke party that's lucky to get 10% of the votes.
the fact is, all the parties are based on sleaze, bull**** and sucking up to the public to get votes. there is no party worth trusting. it's not just the leaders but the parties ideals, they're all crap.
and yes i agree, david cameron is a total wazzock.
i'd start a party with you any day laurie. i can almost GUARANTEE that even with no political experience, and just a small group of young guys like us, we'd be voted in in droves because we're normal brits who know what's wrong with our country, not posh cambridge twits that are after money.
i'm now 18, and would rather give my vote to the raving loony party than any of the mainstream tards.
where do you live btw laurie?
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Originally posted by Speed55
We have the same problems here to.
A white person kills a minority, and the whole city knows about it and is reminded for weeks on end in the news. We're reminded of the injustice of it all, and how that white person is going to get 10x the normal sentence because it's a hate crime.
A minority kills a white person, and it's usually not even mentioned in the news, and if it is, race is left out completely.
I think that pisses off alot of people including good hard working minorities, because they are the ones who suffer the most from resentment. Unfortunately the good, assimilated american hard working minorities can't do a thing to help there own races wake up either.
I know a black guy that works in a body shop, who's brother was paralized in the 80's due to a drive by shooting, and he feels the same way. If idiots like sharpton, went out on a limb for a white victim as much as they do for a black victim, maybe people would respect minorities and new immigrants a little more.
I don't feel like writing a thesis on this, but i hope i got my point across.
yes exactly. i feel disgusted when i see these total morons giving normal hard working, friendly, minorites a bad rep, who then suffer discrimination from other retards because of the first retards. the whole world is falling to pieces atm. not just the UK
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Britain is an absolute shambles at the moment, but to blame that immigration is wrong.
Immigrants did not create the chav / ned / 'scrounge off benefits' culture. Immigrants have not caused the break down in respect for others or any sense of community. In pretty much every city and town across the nation, you are every bit as likely to be assaulted by the packs of white teenagers out their heads on cheap booze as you are to have problems with people of other races.
There are plenty of problems in Britain, but for the reasons you have to look inwards rather than outwards.
One last thing - what's 'British'? I can tell you that - as a Scot - I have a different set of values from many from other parts of Britain - notably South East England. Does that make me any less British?
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Originally posted by wooley
Britain is an absolute shambles at the moment, but to blame that immigration is wrong.
Immigrants did not create the chav / ned / 'scrounge off benefits' culture. Immigrants have not caused the break down in respect for others or any sense of community. In pretty much every city and town across the nation, you are every bit as likely to be assaulted by the packs of white teenagers out their heads on cheap booze as you are to have problems with people of other races.
There are plenty of problems in Britain, but for the reasons you have to look inwards rather than outwards.
One last thing - what's 'British'? I can tell you that - as a Scot - I have a different set of values from many from other parts of Britain - notably South East England. Does that make me any less British?
definitely agree, good post
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So, in America there is a growing population of people of Mexican heritage. Some came here, some were born here. Some choose to wave the Mexican flag to celebrate their heritage, and lately to protest the treatment they as citizens have been receiving (and to protest for immigration reform, but thats another issue). It is not an expression of Mexican Nationalism over American Citizenship.
Yes, it is. Have you been under a rock? Remember the soccer game where Mexico played the US, in the US? The predominantly hispanic crowd didn't just cheer for for Mexico, the roundly booed the US. They booed our National Anthem, hung US flags upside down. They threw beer cans and trash at the American team. They physically assualted the AMerican supporters in the stands. Celebrate their heritage?
This is a typical anecdote of their sentiments. Are you not listening to what they are saying?
Here's some quote from some of their leaders here:
"Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die.
We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population. .. I love it. They are ****ting in their pants with fear. I love it."
Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton: "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
And what happens when truth itself is in debate? You've just put your foot hugely into your mouth here.
A liberal arts education is supposed to introduce you to new ways of thinking, and you as the student are free to choose or reject them as you see academically fit.
A couple of statements then I'll bow out of this.
When truth itself is in debate, nothing happens. That which is so remains so.
As far as putting my foot in my mouth, I could care less. It's not a game of "gotcha."
As to what a liberal arts education is supposed to do . . ., you've been fed a bill of goods.
Congrats on your graduation, and I do honestly hope all goes well!
Best Wishes,
hap
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Originally posted by wooley
Britain is an absolute shambles at the moment,...
The latest evidence:
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5mYnUHJGMFcA1y2jzbkF/SIG=12mv3etmr/EXP=1181983143/**http%3A//img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_01/2012LogoPA_468x520.jpg)
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don't get me started on that rediculous logo...
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A point not yet made is that Britain has a long history of immigration - forced and voluntary, going back 2000 years. Romans, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Danes, Norwegians, Normans, Middle European Jews, Hugenots and more recently West Indians, Ugandan and SE Asians. As a seafaring nation there has been a steady trickle of immigrants into Britain for as long as we have been trading around the world. History demonstrates that these immigrants did integrate eventually (not always without pain and conflict) and most white British have a diverse ancestory which can be demonstrated by DNA analysis. We should be proud of our heritage and the contribution of "foreigners" to the British culture. We should be proud that people want to live here and be part of and contribute to that culture. It takes time for immigrants to integrate but it's happening to people of Asian & West Indian descent. I live in West Yorkshire. There has been a noticable increase in Asian integration over the last 25 years or so as they become more prosperous & move out of the "ghettos". Young Asians are adopting Western cultural norms and aspirations. There's still friction - but the situation is evolving.
As for Britain being the most hated nation. The Empire was imperialistic expansion, often violent and cruel. However, membership of The Commonwealth is voluntary with 370 million people (largely) happy to have the Queen as head of state and proud of their historic relationship with Britain.
What's objectionable is the racial hypocracy that is endemic in Britain and has been commented on above. An example:- Until recently our cleaners at work were two Italian women, both in their late fifties who married Englishmen and have lived in England for over 30 years. Despite this, they have both retained strong Italian accents. A gang of youths started hanging around outside the building and decided it would be fun to abuse them with threats of violence and obscenities as the ladies left in the evening. We notified the police, whose response was illuminating. "We can't do anything if no-one has been hurt". However when we said that there had also been some racial abuse (they'd been called "wops, eyeties" etc) the police came round like a shot, wanting witness statements, CCTV footage etc. What really stuck in the craw however, was the fact that the police completely lost interest again when they discovered the women were white!! This sort of approach does almost as much damage to racial integration as the BNP, who must be rubbing their filthy hands with glee at the propoganda potential.
As a side note - I'm white and have been subjected to verbal racial abuse in Britain and when I worked in India. There are half-wits of all skin tones, but most people are decent imho.
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interesting thread.
Nice post Whisky.
I've told you before hulse that talking about politics or anything remotely controversial on this BBS is a waste of time but that aside.
I agree with many of your points Laurie, politics is a minefield though. Economics and big business play a huge role in decisions made by politicians. In the world we live in any decision that is made is along the lines of how much? and how quickly? Not what is best for you and I.
Our country is still very much British. If you go for a drive out of the city, for a day, into the country and find a nice quiet village. There will be some small stone cottages, a local church and maybe a village green. Some shops, maybe a bakery a local post office (if any are left). That is what Churchill fought for.
London and any other big cities are spiralling out of control with what you have mentioned Laurie. Luckily where i live it isn't that bad. The quicker you can pass all of your exams, get a job and loads of money. Move out to one of those little villages and make sure your kids goto a nice grammar school. I'm sure you will find an inner peace and forget all about it
;)
Bruv
~S~
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The answer is be curtious, be polite and have a plan to kill every foreigner in sight. You don't have to unless something jumps off but that ought to be your thinking.
Valkyrie
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Originally posted by Valkyrie
The answer is be curtious, be polite and have a plan to kill every foreigner in sight. You don't have to unless something jumps off but that ought to be your thinking.
Valkyrie
Unfortunately, elements in Britain seem happy to kill the foreigners without being either courteous or polite.
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Unfortunately, elements in Britain seem happy to kill the foreigners without being either courteous or polite.
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And you have first hand knowledge of these killings?
Perhaps you can share some of your deep keen insight on this plague of happy violance against Foreigners in Britain :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Yeager
Unfortunately, elements in Britain seem happy to kill the foreigners without being either courteous or polite.
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And you have first hand knowledge of these killings?
Perhaps you can share some of your deep keen insight on this plague of happy violance against Foreigners in Britain :rolleyes:
Well - really my comment is that elements of the British population are happy to blame the nation's ill on immigrants and ignoring the very-much home grown problems.
But seeing as how you asked...
link 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/uk/2002/damilola_taylor/default.stm)
link 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6502647.stm)
link 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lawrence)
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dang.......
Ok, two points:
1) Neither of those three stories was about happy violence :rolleyes:
2) Man, you guys are more violent that I thought :huh
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Britain is an absolute shambles at the moment, but to blame that immigration is wrong.
Britain is a shambles at the moment? I'm sure you know alot about that sitting in California.
One last thing - what's 'British'? I can tell you that - as a Scot - I have a different set of values from many from other parts of Britain - notably South East England. Does that make me any less British?
You may be British, but I fear Britain is heading for Balkanisation if your friends in the Scottish Parliament have anything to do with it. If you are Scottish, your kids get free University Education. If you are a Scottish Old Age Pensioner, you get free nursing care. If you have cancer and happen to be Scottish, you have access to expensive new drugs on the NHS.
If you are English, you just get to pay for the Scottish priviledges and are denied them for yourself and your relatives.
I would love to see Scotland have its independance and try and survive without the good ol' English tax-payer.
England is waking up, my friend. Scottish Nationalists may get a unexpected ally south of the border...
england is bad right now.
anywhere outside the fancy areas of london is dangerous after dark.
Outside London (which I don't consider to be a representative part of the UK anymore), things aren't so bad. In fact, I think things are rather a good - people are more prosperous, the regeneration of the Northern cities has been quite stunning (Manchester, Leeds even my home-town of Sheffield).
The only real issue that concerns me is the lack of integration of ethnic communities into British society. A solution needs to be found, but no-one has the balls to grasp the bull by the horns. However, a huge shift in attitudes would be required, especially in some communities.
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Originally posted by Yeager
dang.......
Ok, two points:
1) Neither of those three stories was about happy violence :rolleyes:
2) Man, you guys are more violent that I thought :huh
well, the chavs had a craze of happy slapping going round (getting your mobile phone out and using the camera to film your mates beating people up on the street).
as for street crime here, it's terrible in the cities. someone was shot on my street a few years back, there were 3 muslim honour killings within 1 mile of my house in the last few years, one of which about 200yrds from my house.
and as a schoolkid, roughly 20-30 kids were mugged each week within 500yrds of the school. london is a violent place. a lot of drug gangs in some parts of london too. there are also a huge number of under 18s with illegal firearms (mainly full on handguns and automatics, like berettas and uzis)
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If you shot em they couldn't beat up anyone... if they knew they might get shot... they might not even try to beat up anyone.
You guys could use some rethinking about the evil of gun control.
lazs
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Laz don't hijack this thread to support your Guns for all movement. (i'm not against guns)
Good points Dowding, saw a news report the other day saying Scotland alone would have the worst GDP in europe if they went on their own. (propaganda or not)
It would be a great shame if Scotland did decide to split and Wales aswell for that matter. Look at the US of A i'm sure many people in America don't even venture outside of their own states. Nearly all american states are larger than the UK combined. So to split Britain further is just not worth it.
Might aswell go back to our old tribes. Celts, picts and anglo saxons. I'd rather see us join the Euro than devolve further. At least that would be some sort of "progression"?
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Originally posted by Bruv119
I'd rather see us join the Euro than devolve further.
At least that would be some sort of "progression"?
believe me Britain not joining the Euro has been one of the best decisions ever made.
the regeneration of the Northern cities has been quite stunning
(Manchester, Leeds even my home-town of Sheffield).
the centers of these cities might be quite stunning but the suburbs
And 50% of its inhabitants are still well & truly the pits.
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i don't disagree with that banzaii but for scotland and Wales to go all independance day on us would be a big disloyalty to the union jack and hundreds of years of history of working together.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Britain is a shambles at the moment? I'm sure you know alot about that sitting in California.
Well - I guess it could have improved dramatically in the two years since I left and I just didn't spot it during the eight trips back I've had since then.
Originally posted by Dowding
You may be British, but I fear Britain is heading for Balkanisation if your friends in the Scottish Parliament have anything to do with it.
Scots nationalism only gained prominence after we were royally screwed under the Tories who - with zero support North of the Border - were quite happy to run their little political experiments up there e.g. 3 years of Poll tax prior to its introduction in England. The Nationalists historically broke Labour's stranglehold when they made the same mistake as the Tories by completely ignoring Scottish opinions, arrogantly believing the Scots would blindly continue to vote for them come whatever. That wasn't a vote for independence - it was a reaction to Labour not listening to Scottish opinion. Most Scots are not in favour of independance.
I have never ever been in favour of independence and am proud to call myself British, but in the circumstances, had I been at home for the elections I might well have voted SNP as well.
Originally posted by Dowding
If you are Scottish, your kids get free University Education. If you are a Scottish Old Age Pensioner, you get free nursing care. If you have cancer and happen to be Scottish, you have access to expensive new drugs on the NHS.
Don't blame Scotland - blame your own elected officials for not having the bottle or nous to obtain the same 'privileges' for you.
Originally posted by Dowding
I would love to see Scotland have its independance and try and survive without the good ol' English tax-payer.
Scotland does take more out of the UK than it puts in - I don't dispute it. But then, so do most of the English regions, Wales and Northern Ireland. Take away London and the Home Counties and what's left is just as screwed up as Scotland.
Many Scots feel is the reason Scotland is so poor and requires hand-outs is due to years of mis-management from London. For what its worth, I disagree. I think the reason Scotland is so poor is that it is full of lazy-@rsed so and so's who have no intention of ever working a day in their life and has a presbyterian background that has discourages any kind of entrepreneurial spirit. The one potential redeeming factor - the world-class education system - pumps out thousands of high-quality graduate each year, but unfortunately there are so few opportunities, many are forced to move away taking the wealth of the nation with them.
Unless Scotland can address that last problem - the lack of professional opportunities - and thus increase the size of its middle-class, I agree with you: an independent Scotland would be a disaster.
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Originally posted by lazs2
If you shot em they couldn't beat up anyone... if they knew they might get shot... they might not even try to beat up anyone.
You guys could use some rethinking about the evil of gun control.
lazs
thankfully, even though there is guncrime, it's mainly just small gang incidents. the real problem is knifecrime. you can't ban knives, and they're cheap, quiet, and easy to hide.
britain's guncrime and gun deaths are 1000's of times lower than the states for a reason. we're still allowed guns, the guns that are worth owning, shooting shotguns, rifles etc. i think it's a good thing that handguns are banned. they're purely designed as a concealable weapon for killing someone, something i don't want on my streets.
some theif pulls a knife and you can run. he pulls a gun and you're screwed, and it's only the full on gangsters with the guns.
i am perfectly happy with the gun laws here, they're just right. if you want to do something useful with a gun, shooting birds or targets etc, they check you out and give you a permit, something i think america could learn from. not banning weapons, but checking people out before selling them.
you may think you have the right to bear arms, but everyone has the right to life, so keeping guns of the hands of crazies is sensible i think.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
laurie's post didn't appear to be 'i'm a white christian, everyone else bugger off' at all.
he was saying that many of britain's subcultures do not integrate, and do not abide by the law, which is unfortunately very true in our large cities.
there's a HUGE problem with black knife + gun gang crime, most of these guys aged 12-18. young black kids (plenty of white kids too) roam the streets looking for an easy victim to either rob or just murder for the fun of it. the problem is nothing to do with race, but the subculture. with a lot of the poor young black guys, their whole life is based around respect through violence and 'bling' which is usually all stolen, or paid for with stolen goods.
these are young BRITISH kids who are out of control, and our useless government (nor any of the useless parties) don't do anything. england is bad right now.
anywhere outside the fancy areas of london is dangerous after dark. luckily enough i don't get much trouble because i'm fairly tall and well built, but growing up i was always terrified coming home. it really is that bad.
but laurie, learning about other cultures is a good thing. just because a small percentage of wackjob muslims don't keep an open mind, doesn't mean you should become a fanatic and close yours. hate never solves anything, just look at bloody palestine and israel! think about getting into local politics too :)
here ,here.
i live in County of Hertfordshire.
And Bruv, id rather see britain join hand in hand with the french than adopt the euro, i mean look how strong the pound is. Also the european Union is NOT progressive, it has become stagnant and an excuse for the poor countries to suck dry the richer ones whilst allowing France+Germany to Un-justly dominate.
For god's sake labour won't give the police tazers because it 'might infringe the human rights of the criminals' yet we see more and more police being killed and more and more armed criminals.
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Originally posted by Banzzai
the centers of these cities might be quite stunning but the suburbs
And 50% of its inhabitants are still well & truly the pits.
Your forgetting birmingam lol.
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Originally posted by Banzzai
the centers of these cities might be quite stunning but the suburbs
And 50% of its inhabitants are still well & truly the pits.
And what would you know of it?
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Major Biggles, with all due respect to your views, I think you can't see the forest for the trees. I consider the defense of my family and life a proper use of a firearm.
If you consider the U.K.'s gun laws to be "just right" that is well and good. But if gang crime in your country continues to worsen, what are the elderly to do? Stay at home and never venture forth without a bodyguard?
I'm 53 years old. If confronted by a knife-wielding punk I would have a very hard time outrunning him. True, I could give him what he wanted, but what if he wants my life? Suppose he and some of his wolfish brethren kick in my door late one night. Loading and using a long-gun in the dark is difficult at best. If I used a gun to kill one of them, would your court system think my actions were justified?
Major, I deal with these punks every working day. My place of employment is a juvenile detention center where we handle the worst kids in the state. I've gained quite a bit of insight into what makes them tick: Drugs, glorified violence, illicit sex, money. But their revelling in violence is the most troubling, whether of not they have a gun available or not. They are thrill-seekers, and they tend to seek a bigger and bigger thrill with each week that passes, steadily ratcheting up their violence and other activities.
Within the last two years, some of our parolees have committed three murders and an untold number of felony assaults. They enjoy it. Two of these murders were committed with a gun, but the most brutal was committed with a pair of scissors, against a woman from my home town. Hardened police officers of my acquaintance were deeply shaken by what they saw when they arrived on the scene.
None of the victims was armed, for they were law-abiding citizens. Three decent, worthwhile citizens had their lives snuffed out by thrill-seeking animals: a father, a mother, and a 76 year old grandfather who was slain because he had no money. One of those murders was planned by one of our inmates while he was in our custody, and he would have carried it out if he had had to use a baseball bat.
Most of our young inmates are not that hard-core, but enough are to give one pause.
From some of the posts by your fellow Brits in this thread, I gather that gang violence is worsening in your country. If you are comfortable with the current laws of your country regulating the use of firearms for self-defence then more power to you. Deal with that problem as you see fit.
But if one of these predators shows up on my front doorstep unnanounced I will answer the door with a gun in my hand.
Do I live in fear? Not in so many words. I live a normal life, as do most Americans. I don't live in an inner city where much of this sort of gang violence takes place. There are still a lot of Mayberry's in this country.
I just prefer that my options not be limited.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by AKH
And what would you know of it?
Born & Bread In CREWE (hides his head in shame)
Say no more
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68hawk?
*crickets*
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Major Biggles, with all due respect to your views, I think you can't see the forest for the trees. I consider the defense of my family and life a proper use of a firearm.
If you consider the U.K.'s gun laws to be "just right" that is well and good. But if gang crime in your country continues to worsen, what are the elderly to do? Stay at home and never venture forth without a bodyguard?
I'm 53 years old. If confronted by a knife-wielding punk I would have a very hard time outrunning him. True, I could give him what he wanted, but what if he wants my life? Suppose he and some of his wolfish brethren kick in my door late one night. Loading and using a long-gun in the dark is difficult at best. If I used a gun to kill one of them, would your court system think my actions were justified?
Major, I deal with these punks every working day. My place of employment is a juvenile detention center where we handle the worst kids in the state. I've gained quite a bit of insight into what makes them tick: Drugs, glorified violence, illicit sex, money. But their revelling in violence is the most troubling, whether of not they have a gun available or not. They are thrill-seekers, and they tend to seek a bigger and bigger thrill with each week that passes, steadily ratcheting up their violence and other activities.
Within the last two years, some of our parolees have committed three murders and an untold number of felony assaults. They enjoy it. Two of these murders were committed with a gun, but the most brutal was committed with a pair of scissors, against a woman from my home town. Hardened police officers of my acquaintance were deeply shaken by what they saw when they arrived on the scene.
None of the victims was armed, for they were law-abiding citizens. Three decent, worthwhile citizens had their lives snuffed out by thrill-seeking animals: a father, a mother, and a 76 year old grandfather who was slain because he had no money. One of those murders was planned by one of our inmates while he was in our custody, and he would have carried it out if he had had to use a baseball bat.
Most of our young inmates are not that hard-core, but enough are to give one pause.
From some of the posts by your fellow Brits in this thread, I gather that gang violence is worsening in your country. If you are comfortable with the current laws of your country regulating the use of firearms for self-defence then more power to you. Deal with that problem as you see fit.
But if one of these predators shows up on my front doorstep unnanounced I will answer the door with a gun in my hand.
Do I live in fear? Not in so many words. I live a normal life, as do most Americans. I don't live in an inner city where much of this sort of gang violence takes place. There are still a lot of Mayberry's in this country.
I just prefer that my options not be limited.
Regards, Shuckins
ahhhh, but the gang problem isn't too big. in america the gangs are bad because they all have guns. here you have to go to some trouble to get one. the gangs keep to themselves. unfortunately though the knife gangs are a problem. again, the violence is usually between gangs and stuff, but hey.
but the fact is, the UK's guncrime levels are minute compared to america because of gun control, and that's a good thing. some guy with a knife breaks into my house, i shoot him with my crossbow, my rifle, beat him up with a stick etc, still plenty of options, while keeping handguns (which are very dangerous) off the streets. provided i take him out within my property, even with a crossbow or something, it'd be fine as long as you didn't go over the top and bludgeon the corpse or something crazy.
americans like to have a way to defend themselves in the form of a handgun, but that comes at a cost of thousands of lives every year, people who die because the other guy had a gun, and they didn't, or because they didn't have to react. americans are prepared to pay that price, but we brits don't want that. we can still have fun shooting at ranges and things if we like, or own a gun for whatever we like provided it's a legal gun and we have a permit. the fact is though, that the brits just aren't prepared to pay for the use of handguns with the cost of so many lives, we'd rather tdo it the english way with our fists ;)
america and britain are happy with their respective rules though, so as long as we're both happy, it's all good :)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
68hawk?
*crickets*
:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Yes, it is. Have you been under a rock? Remember the soccer game where Mexico played the US, in the US? The predominantly hispanic crowd didn't just cheer for for Mexico, the roundly booed the US. They booed our National Anthem, hung US flags upside down. They threw beer cans and trash at the American team. They physically assualted the AMerican supporters in the stands. Celebrate their heritage?
This is a typical anecdote of their sentiments. Are you not listening to what they are saying?
Here's some quote from some of their leaders here:
Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton:
I'll step in here since i agree with a lot(not all) of what hawk said.
Your soccer game example really falls short of the mark. You were shooting for an example that showed how Mexicans in the US hate the US and want to turn the US into a new Mexico(please correct me if my assumption is wrong here). I hope you can understand how everyone outside of the US is brought up loving, for the most part, only one sport, football(called soccer by those of us who know what real football is). So with their love of the game they have a loyalty to their country of origin in which the sport was so popular. Yes their behavior at the game was out of line, but even in the US fans of US teams get out of hand(im sure you've watched ESPN at some point in your life and seen this, if not, search it on You tube). Your soccer game comparison would be like me moving to Texas to live after i graduate and then going to OU/Texas football game in Dallas and not cheering for OU, but Texas since i live there. You think that is gonna happen? I guarantee you that they have more pride in their nationality, as i do, than i have for my alma mater.
Also, soccer doesn't have a very big following in the US, had that stadium been filled with a large portion of US fans it might have been a different story. Not to mention the fact that the rest of the world is so passionate about soccer that those of us in the states have a hard time understanding why they can get so violent. I do want to say that im not hating on soccer, because when EPL is in full swing i am glued to Fox Soccer Channel.
So hopefully we have cleared up how bad of an example that was, now look at two of the three quotes you posted. You have no name attached to them, just quotes. So what you're doing is taking two random quotes, which no doubt were probably made by a Mexican national who is now residing in the US(we can't know for sure, but i'll assume it was, as you did), and applying them to the entire group of Mexican nationals living in our country. You expect to maintain a shred of credibility by quoting the extremists in a movement and applying it to the whole group? We already had that problem once with idiots going around beating up muslims because they put them all in the same group with those responsible for the attacks.
Now let me tell you where i stand on the issue before you start getting the wrong idea. This new Immigration naturalization bill is the biggest POS bill introduced in quite some time. I'm sorry but no matter how you cut it, the large number of illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy. I'm not saying they are the only drain, but they aren't making matters any better AND they are not here legally. If our economy is going to go in the crapper, then i would prefer we let it spiral out of control because of the apathy of our legal US citizens. That way, in the end, the only ones we have to blame are ourselves.
So, my overall opinion on the immigration problem in the US. Continue guarding the border, get rid of these gun-toting "i'm defending our borders from these illegals who come over here and 'take our jobs'(soutpark reference)" minutemen and let our military do the job. We've got night vision and we've got guns. If a couple of them end up being shot(now we don't have to kill em, we can wound em and throw them in a mexican hospital somewhere), then you might have a few more trying to get into the country the legal way. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, who knows.
I'll provide one last example about my experience with a legal mexican national. I work at Wal-mart as a manager and we have a few employees who can't speak any English at all. One we just hired who has only been in country for 6 months. As chance would have it i speak quite a bit of spanish. This guy and I sit down and talk, he points out where i go wrong in my grammar and i teach him how to translate different verb tenses from spanish to english. This guy is great, he is trying to learn the language, he works harder than a lot of the guys i have that do his job(not all mind you) and he is happy. Not only that, and here's the kicker, he is here LEGALLY. So i don't want you to leave this post thinking that i love Mexicans, or that I hate them, i want you to understand that i believe in the law. I also believe in a good work ethic and if you are here legally and are willing to learn our language, then by all means stay, fill the job of someone who isn't willing to put out half the effort because they know they can get fired and file for unemployment and not have a work a day in their life.
EDIT: Sorry for the hijack.
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Cody,
Your post caught my eye on two points:
1) American hating. And yes, the soccer example isn't the best. Just like the O'Club forum. In the soccer game, you might have beered up Mexicans doing the "down with America" thing. And to reason "well there you have it. They ALL hate us," is false reasoning.
Imagine if the only "picture" of America that world had were the O'Club Forum? :eek: Or if the O'Club ran America's foriegn and domestic policy? I think the only conclusion folks could draw is "wow, they're all barking mad!" Not each and everyone one mind you, but . . . well you get the picture.
Oh, as a sidelight, I read that we're still well liked amongst some Eastern European countries.
2) Law abiding hard working folk. I, too, have met folks like this, and I do not and did not know their citizenship status. Sure makes life nicer doesn't it?
I really don't know why our borders, during the last 50 years say, haven't been secured. There's the explanation of "they do jobs American's won't do." That one never convinced me. "Greed" high up the ladder is an explanation I can better buy into.
Then there's the "do you really want to pay $10 for a cabbage? Because that's what it will cost you if an American is paid a liveable wage to pick it." Back to the greed factor for me.
I recall all the pro-American and anti-Canada/European talk during my life regarding health insurance, gas prices, oh you name it. Now I've lived long enough, 50 years, to be able to consider that maybe "our way" wasn't so hands down superior after all, and "their way" so lousy and wrong.
It all goes back to the big question, "why are we here?"
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at the risk of a highjack... I may not know all there is to know about england but I do know people.. It seems to me that you have always had a relatively "polite" or civilized society.. guns have never mattered before...
name a gun law that was enacted and made serious crime go down. Our guns probly stop more killings than cause and.. they make crime go down not up.
With all due respect... you don't know a thing about my country tho. You claim to know that our gangs are a problem because of guns? our gangs are a problem because they are criminal scum.
I could get a handgun in your country if I were living there in less than a month.. I could make one in a few days.
At some point.. and this is the trend you yourself is pointing to... your "tradition" of polite and fair and civilized....
That will all fall apart because there will be so few of you who even know there is a tradition.. the animals will roam the streets and you will be unable to defend yourself because your government made a huge mistake.
If you let citizens carry handguns in your country concealed... but kept your strict penalties for abuse of firearms... like what you have now for just touching one... you would not see citizens murdering each other at any different rate than they do now... you would have freedom and you would reduce crime.
Like I said.. me shooting one of the "happy slappers" would make you (or your wife or grandpa) less likely to be "happy slapped" next week.
back on topic.. I do see a deterioration of england by third world contributions to the population... in some respects that is very sad.. in others inveitable.. the brits have a history of not only good but evil... class distinctions that are disgusting and violate all normal thinking on human rights.. a history of defeating nations and plundering them and dehumanizing the citizens.
Some of this is coming home to roost.. there is no place for these third worlders in your class system. No place but ghettos.
You guys have one hell of a lot more to worry about than global warming in my opinion.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2 our gangs are a problem because they are criminal scum.
Over the past 3 years or so, I've reflected upon what is commonly referred to as the Medieval times. Specifically those time prior to the establishment of prisons as a place to put folks who behave badly.
It's worth reading about.
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68hawk said they were celebrating their heritage. Will you explain to me how hanging US flags upside down and assaulting US citizens is celebrating their heritage? Explain to me how those quoted are merely celebrating their heritage.
Cody, I left out the person's name in the quotes merely to reduce space. These are not random mexican nationals but leaders of the hispanic community here in the US. They are not considered extremists by the illegals, based on their large following.
Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die
Through love of having children, we are going to take over.
- Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets
"They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."
- Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council
"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."
-Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico
"We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion
is in our population. I love it. They are sh**ing in their pants with fear. I love it."
- Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas
"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California.
- Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party
"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country. I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."
- Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor
"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."
- Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations (and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under former CA Governor Jerry Brown. Also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton)
"We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California." [Reconquista = reconquest]
- Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General
"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos
"
- Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
68hawk said they were celebrating their heritage. Will you explain to me how hanging US flags upside down and assaulting US citizens is celebrating their heritage? Explain to me how those quoted are merely celebrating their heritage.
Cody, I left out the person's name in the quotes merely to reduce space. These are not random mexican nationals but leaders of the hispanic community here in the US. They are not considered extremists by the illegals, based on their large following.
You provided the context, i told you where you went wrong.
Hanging flags upside down? Granted the flag we speak of us the symbol of our country and there are men and women fighting to defend it as we speak. In the context in which you provided it does not fall in line with celebrating their heritage. It is a game. It is Mexico vs. the United States. I don't see how, at a game, hanging a US flag upside down is saying "i want the United States to roll over so my chicano brothers and sisters can take it all over." I see it in much the same way as any Oklahoma fans might see it when we hang a Longhorns flag upside down. So celebrating their heritage? No, it's a game. Assaulting a US citizen? Of course this isn't celebrating their heritage. It is an overreaction and those responsible should have been prosecuted. To me, this soccer game that you brought up had nothing to do with heritage and had more to do with a game that they felt strongly about as does the rest of the world.
Because they have a large following they are not considered extremists by those that follow them? Well i would hope not, otherwise why would they follow them? But those that follow them are, in my mind, extremists as are the ones they follow. Much like Jesse Jackson, in my opinion, is an extremist and so are all those that follow him. Jerry Falwell was an extremist. Pat Robertson is an extremist. I know that not all christians think that pat robertson best represents their set of beliefs, therefore i don't lump them all in the same crowd.
So unless you have some way of proving to me that the 35 million(not sure how many there are) illegal immigrants in this country all believe that "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion
is in our population. I love it. They are sh**ing in their pants with fear. I love it." I'll stick to not holding every single one of them accountable for the comments made by someone who is supposedly an educated man. Then again he does teach at UT. (pwned) ;) dam i need a texas fan in here
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Cody, I didn't go wrong anywhere. Let me spell this out for you .... again.
68hawk claimed these people were celebrating their heritage. I used the upside down flag and assaulting supporters of the US team as going beyond celebrating their heritage... that's all. I didn't claim these criminals at the soccer match were, as you said, not me
want the United States to roll over so my chicano brothers and sisters can take it all over."
I'm not going to let you put words in my mouth so you can win a debate.
My point was that many of the illegals and their leaders are taking agressive tones and actions that go far beyond "celebrating their heritage"
I don't have to prove anything to you about 35 million anybody, that was not the point of my argument.
Hitler's followers didn't consider him an extremist. Look what he did. Don't bother trying to say I'm calling these illegal extremists Hitler's, I used Hitler to make a point. Extremists are dangerous. You may consider Falwell dangerous but I can't recall him fomenting violence... nice try.
The words and actions of these illegals go way beyond celebrating their culture. If you want to debate this with me fine, but quit trying to twist my point so you can argue it.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Hitler's followers didn't consider him an extremist. Look what he did. Don't bother trying to say I'm calling these illegal extremists Hitler's, I used Hitler to make a point. Extremists are dangerous. You may consider Falwell dangerous but I can't recall him fomenting violence... nice try.
When i said, "Because they have a large following they are not considered extremists by those that follow them? Well i would hope not, otherwise why would they follow them? " i was restating what you said with the first question and then answering rhetorically while trying to agree with you. If i was unclear what i was trying to say is that yes those quotes you posted are in fact the words of extremists. If they do in fact have a following then those that follow them are extremists even though they don't think they are. Obviously if they thought their leaders were extreme then they wouldn't follow, this was what i was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion on this one.
I don't consider Falwell or Pat Robertson dangerous in any way, there was no attempt to compare the two methods. Is it a pre-requisite to be violent just to be considered an extremist?
And you are quite right, i did put words in your mouth when i stated the comment about the "chicano brothers and sisters." I was just expressing the, well, extreme way one could look at something so simple as a flag upside down at a game. I do apologize.
Steve ill say one last thing on the subject and let it lay. In regards to what im assuming is hawk's opinion of celebrating their heritage and fighting for their equal rights. Well if he is referring to the walkouts and massive protests that we had some months ago then i disagree. To me those protests made me a little sick to my stomach. Simply because if a large portion of those protesting are illegal immigrants then they have obviously looked past the fact that we haven't taken a harsh stance on illegal immigrants and are taking our inaction for granted. If they were trying to get equal rights well then they should have become citizens the legal way.
Finally, steve, i had no desire to win a debate, i was just trying to argue the point and the point was simply that i did not think that the example of the soccer game that you gave worked well to argue either side of the matter. I don't think it is really possible to win the debate over this issue anyway, at least not yet.
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Originally posted by lazs2
[.. there is no place for these third worlders in your class system.
lazs [/B]
Class system?? What class system is that lasz? You've been watching too many imported Edwardian period dramas. The remnants of the aristocracy are regarded with mild amusement. The working classes as they were have disappeared along with the mining, ship building and heavy engineering industries. Everyone's middle class now, it's official - ask Tony Blair. I'll wager there's no more of a class system in the UK than any European country, or the US - especially east coast.
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if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?
lazs
good manners, modesty, gentlemanly values, something which no other country seems to understand
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
good manners, modesty, gentlemanly values, something which no other country seems to understand
Excellent virtues Major. I'm for them all :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?
lazs
Being Great Britain
Britain was once the most successful and powerful country on earth, setting an example to the rest of the world with pride and patriotism for Queen and Country, This is what we have lost.
Our country is now one without character and charisma.
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if you have pride and patriotism for queen and country.. isn't that a class system? I guess we view royalty differently.
We are/were the greatest nation with the best manners and values including modesty?
When england was the most powerful on earth it could also be said that it was amoung the worlds most predjudiced and cruel and tyrannical.
I do know what you mean tho about language and culture and those sorts of things...
We are facing these things in a much worse way than you are... You simply can't have tradition with multiculturalism... multiculturalism will kill any successful country.
lazs
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Laurie, Britain is full of character & charisma. Look around - science, literature, art, music, sport - we've got some of the best. The strongest economy in Europe. Where else would you want to live - France? Germany? Italy? Newspapers make us look crap, but that sells copy - same in any country unless the press is state owned.
What about pride & patriotism for president & country. A class thing? Don't be stupid Whisky - we vote for our president. Ok but how many black, hispanic, working class or asian presidents have there been. At least we have had women heads of state (and a woman prime minister). We're not proud of the Queen because she represents aristocracy but she represents the state. Since the 17th century the monarch's role has changed - the Queen serves the people, not visa-versa. The monarchy is permanent - a bit like the stars & stripes I guess. Queen and country are the same thing.
Britain has enjoyed 2000 years of multiculturalism. Ethnic & racial diversity strengthens - especially when the immigrants are the ones with the guts & wherewithall to get away from whatever 3rd world country. We have 4000 years of traditions going back to Stonehenge. Our history proves that multiculturism and traditions are not mutually exclusive. Which other country has been as consistently successful as Britain over the last 1000 years?
BTW Laurie Great Britain refers to "greater" Britain ie including Northern Ireland & all the islands dotted around the coast rather than "great" as in fantastic or superb. I'm sure you know that & I'm making a dick of myself but worth clarifying for non-Brits.
:)
Regards
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Queen and country are the same thing.
I wouldn't agree with that...
I'd plant seed in the country....
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Originally posted by lazs2
We are facing these things in a much worse way than you are... You simply can't have tradition with multiculturalism... multiculturalism will kill any successful country.
lazs
So Why is it so popular?
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Laurie, Britain is full of character & charisma. Look around - science, literature, art, music, sport - we've got some of the best. The strongest economy in Europe. Where else would you want to live - France? Germany? Italy? Newspapers make us look crap, but that sells copy - same in any country unless the press is state owned.
Regards
I would Consider the Isle of man and The Falklands.
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I think your wrong Laurie,I love this country,and I'm proud to live here but what you've been saying is dangerous and ultimatley leads to mass paranoia, and ppl getting hurt.Parties like the BNP love ppl like you.
As for some Golden age when was this,We all think of Churchill as fighting for democracy and freedom,well he was,but he was also fighting for -and it's in all his speeches the "Empire"-their was NO Democracey in the British Empire.Roosevelt new it and the Americans rightly made sure we dismantled it after WWII.The Price of victory.
A lot of ppl in are Empire fought for Britain during WWII,Indians,Africans nepalese jamaicans some of the ppl you attack now,are descendants of these ppl.
I suppose they thought after fighting for the Empire they would be welcomed with open arms.How wrong they were!!
How different the Brttanicus Pax was to the Romanus Pax.The Romans once their colonials excepted the Roman way were welcomed into the Empire some of them became ceaser.
Finally I live in a low rent area of town,my asian niebours are by and large well mannered law abiding hard working ppl who I say hi to in the street,most of the trouble is caused by my white niegbours.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
As for some Golden age when was this,We all think of Churchill as fighting for democracy and freedom,well he was,but he was also fighting for -and it's in all his speeches the "Empire"-their was NO Democracey in the British Empire.Roosevelt new it and the Americans rightly made sure we dismantled it after WWII.The Price of victory.
A lot of ppl in are Empire fought for Britain during WWII,Indians,Africans nepalese jamaicans some of the ppl you attack now,are descendants of these ppl.
I suppose they thought after fighting for the Empire they would be welcomed with open arms.How wrong they were!!
With your two points in the quote i must argue.
Roosevelt was not a very wise man, he was over- optimistic and lacked respect for Churchill, who's jusgement through WW2 was exceeded by no-one else.
It's a shame Roosevelt and 'his americans' didnt dismantle the Soveit union aswell.
Roosevelt Had double standards when it came to Churchill/Britain and Stalin/Russia. and for this i take much of what he said and thought with a pinch of salt to be frank.
And as for your second piont in the quote, you have tailored my arguement to fit your needs,(like many liberals). I'm sorry but i dont remember Eatsern Europeans or many Africans(except some parts of northern africa and kenya) Fighting for Britain or even bieng part of the empire!
If you look at ex british colonies they have done extremely well compared to those of France, italy, austria, germany or Russia.
America
Canada
India
Australia
Kenya
South Africa
New Zealand
Britain did great things for these countries that you claim it tyranically controlled.
I pinch this phrase from someone you may know,
'A dog isn't made a horse if it's born in a stable'
And just for the record, i am not in favour of the BNP.
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laurie.. only the left pushes multiculturalism.. It is not popular with people... it shoved down their throats. The idea is to destroy any remaining sense of country so that socialism can thrive.
I would take exception with you on the british colonies... they thrived after they had gotten the british boot off of their throat. Being a colony under british rule was a horrible thing. We fought a bloody revolution to get that boot off our throat.
You are right about FDR being a terrible president tho.. for other reasons tho.. he brought the US closer to socialism and did the most to destroy the constitution... LBJ later did almost as much.
lazs
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Laurie, Britain is full of character & charisma. Look around - science, literature, art, music, sport - we've got some of the best. The strongest economy in Europe. Where else would you want to live - France? Germany? Italy? Newspapers make us look crap, but that sells copy - same in any country unless the press is state owned.
What about pride & patriotism for president & country. A class thing? Don't be stupid Whisky - we vote for our president. Ok but how many black, hispanic, working class or asian presidents have there been. At least we have had women heads of state (and a woman prime minister). We're not proud of the Queen because she represents aristocracy but she represents the state. Since the 17th century the monarch's role has changed - the Queen serves the people, not visa-versa. The monarchy is permanent - a bit like the stars & stripes I guess. Queen and country are the same thing.
Britain has enjoyed 2000 years of multiculturalism. Ethnic & racial diversity strengthens - especially when the immigrants are the ones with the guts & wherewithall to get away from whatever 3rd world country. We have 4000 years of traditions going back to Stonehenge. Our history proves that multiculturism and traditions are not mutually exclusive. Which other country has been as consistently successful as Britain over the last 1000 years?
BTW Laurie Great Britain refers to "greater" Britain ie including Northern Ireland & all the islands dotted around the coast rather than "great" as in fantastic or superb. I'm sure you know that & I'm making a dick of myself but worth clarifying for non-Brits.
:)
Regards
Now I must say, that this was quite good, Whisky :aok
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I don't think Laurie..I know!!the British Empire was a tyranny fact!!I suggest you read some History.A benign tyranny if you like ,but wrong however you look at it.
As far as eastern europeans are concerned they are now part of the EU,that means the free movement of goods and ppl between borders,many brits take advantge of this by moving to spain or france, and now Eastern Europe too.Presumably in "Laurie world" they should all be deported back to Britain?
it is also good for growth in business,to have economic growth you need a corrosponding increase in workers,particularley in jobs that we prefer not to do,that is why a laissei fare tory Government will struggle to keep ppl like you and it's Base of business types happy.
The torys want them here,but like you they would prefer they spoke perfect English and were white.
:aok
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I live in a British colony right now. I don't feel any boots on my throat at all. Lazs is right that the British Empire was tyrannical and brutal back "in the day", but so was every single country back then, including the United States....just ask any native Indian.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I don't think Laurie..I know!!the British Empire was a tyranny fact!!I suggest you read some History.A benign tyranny if you like ,but wrong however you look at it.
As far as eastern europeans are concerned they are now part of the EU,that means the free movement of goods and ppl between borders,many brits take advantge of this by moving to spain or france, and now Eastern Europe too.Presumably in "Laurie world" they should all be deported back to Britain?
it is also good for growth in business,to have economic growth you need a corrosponding increase in workers,particularley in jobs that we prefer not to do,that is why a laissei fare tory Government will struggle to keep ppl like you and it's Base of business types happy.
The torys want them here,but like you they would prefer they spoke perfect English and were white.
:aok
So you admit that British ex-colonies came off better than those of other empires?
You think Britain was the ONLY tyrannical empire? And if we were so bad , why did they hail Queen Victoria like a goddess in India?
And places like turkey technically aren't in Europe. shame you totally skimmed past the Churchill point though, not convenient for you? He was the greatest British politician and leader ever known. If you don't like Churchill, how about a return of Thatcher-ism.
Hazzer theres good immigrants and there's sponges of society. Good immigrants come here keen to learn and adapt to British life and to work hard and improve our nation, bad ones come here, with their 6 kids on a little dingy or under trucks, marry and English male/female, doss around with petty jobs until they get citizenship( which is handed out like a raffle ticket) then sit on their tulips and rape the benefit system ;which is out of control to be frank.
for Christ's sake 'Tony and Gordon'& co. Don't even know how many people are really in this frigging country, we must learn lessons from our American brothers when it comes to border control. All Blair has done is blown away all the deals Thatcher secured us in Europe and given in to France + Germany; the dictators within Europe, leaving us putting EVEN MORE money into Europe and getting less money back, but of course more immigrants to look after from the countries we are paying to run.
I would pay to take Britain out of the EU any day of the year. You might say we'll loose trade, but we wouldn't., We'd just loose a load of legal and constitutional baggage. There are over 60 million people in the UK, NO country in the EU would stop training with us and exporting/importing with us, we have one of the, if not the largest population in Europe, were just a trading post too good to miss.
I would love to see what the return of national service and an immigration policy like the french would do for Britain, a bloody good job. hazzer, what you seem to call 'Laurie world' is the real world my friend, where not everyone is looking out for everyone else and the rose shades are off.
You seem to be in the 'lets hold hands and sing kumbaya' frame of mind.
Patriotism is not simply supporting England in the world cup.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
The torys want them here,but like you they would prefer they spoke perfect English and were white.
:aok
Classic non-right act, if you cant win an arguement with reason, resort to 'tories' this and 'tories' that.
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Originally posted by lazs2
laurie.. only the left pushes multiculturalism.. It is not popular with people... it shoved down their throats. The idea is to destroy any remaining sense of country so that socialism can thrive.
I
It seems to be running right through hazzer's blood though.;)
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Lazs is right that the British Empire was tyrannical and brutal back "in the day", but so was every single country back then, including the United States....just ask any native Indian.
Let's look at the slave trade. As we can all agree, the British Empire was brutal and tyrannical so we can make allowances for its involvement.
What excuse does the noble, great and just U.S.A. have?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Let's look at the slave trade. As we can all agree, the British Empire was brutal and tyrannical so we can make allowances for its involvement.
What excuse does the noble, great and just U.S.A. have?
Touched a soft spot huh? Try to diminish the flaws of your homeland by looking to other's? Nice try strawman.
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Originally posted by Stevebailey
Touched a soft spot huh? Try to diminish the flaws of your homeland by looking to other's? Nice try straw-man.
The slave trade consisted of 'the trade triangle' of which one of the stops was South east America. White American settlers ,your forefathers, Took part and benefited greatly from it, helping you country to bud into what it has become Steve. so there is no need for the 'straw-man' or other comments, though admittedly dowding may have appeared a little 'full on', ;we all have our moments.:rolleyes:
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Straw-man arguments are the de facto method of discussion in the O-Club, Steve. It's a long standing tradition.
Try to diminish the flaws of your homeland by looking to other's?
Not at all. I can accept the 'black history' within my ancestry. Can you say the same?
But the point still stands. America could be as brutal and repressive as any other country within its own sphere of influence. Slavery was abolished by Britain before the US; Britain worked hard to police the illegal slave trade on the West coast of Africa and founded Freetown for freed slaves.
But then the world was a brutal place back then, and thanks to the liberals of the time, we are able to look back and criticise (at least you can in Britain).
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Originally posted by Dowding
Let's look at the slave trade. As we can all agree, the British Empire was brutal and tyrannical so we can make allowances for its involvement.
What excuse does the noble, great and just U.S.A. have?
That the British established the slave trade here long before we were independent?
That the British set about eliminating the Indian from desirable land here long before we were independent?
:lol
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That the British established the slave trade here long before we were indendent?
And the British set about eliminating the Indian from desirable land here long before we were independent?
So we just continued it for another 150+ years because the dispicable British who we spit on and who we have just shed blood to kick off our land said it was a good idea?
:lol
Dejavu. Definitely seen this argument before in the O-Club. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
That the British established the slave trade here long before we were independent?
That the British set about eliminating the Indian from desirable land here long before we were independent?
:lol
LOL
So they were British when they were part of a colony, but a generation or two later they were Americans who did nothing wrong.
Gotcha.
:aok
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|Laurie,Churchill once talked about a united states of Europe....do you know what prompted him to say that?
If you do,I would love to hear you explain it to me.then we might get somewhere.
All the Best.:)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Dejavu. Definitely seen this argument before in the O-Club. ;)
Yes, indeed we have.
Feel free to make your case once again; I don't think 150 years is "spot on".
You may want to check your dates.
1833 Abolition of Slavery Act Britain abolishes slavery and provides for the emancipation of enslaved people in the British West Indies, to take effect in August 1834. The Act declares that the former enslaved people must serve a period of apprenticeship before receiving full emancipation. Originally this period was set at six years, but it was later reduced to four.
1838 Emancipation of enslaved people in British territories. Colonial assemblies pass laws against vagrancy and squatting to support the planters interests.
1865 The Thirteenth Amendment marks the abolition of slavery in the USA at the end of the American Civil War
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL
So they were British when they were part of a colony, but a generation or two later they were Americans who did nothing wrong.
Gotcha.
:aok
Did anyone say anything about " Americans who did nothing wrong".
No. Well, no one except you. Do you need any more straw for that thing?
In any event, it's clear we were only following longstanding family traditions in both cases.
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Originally posted by Toad
In any event, it's clear we were only following longstanding family traditions in both cases.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by Toad
That the British established the slave trade here long before we were independent?
That the British set about eliminating the Indian from desirable land here long before we were independent?
:lol
Toad youre shooting yourself in the foot her ebecause 99% of white americans are British in their ancsetory, you forget that your nation of constitutional adoration and land of starts and stripes is still a young one.
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I'm sorry, I simply have no idea what point you are attempting to make.
That quote is in reply to Dowding and we've already had our little joust for fun. Dowding and I have been around here so long that we've hashed out most of these topics 1-3 times before. We're down to using shorthand now. :)
This one: Originally posted by Dowding
Let's look at the slave trade. As we can all agree, the British Empire was brutal and tyrannical so we can make allowances for its involvement.
What excuse does the noble, great and just U.S.A. have?
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Originally posted by Hazzer
|Laurie,Churchill once talked about a united states of Europe....do you know what prompted him to say that?
If you do,I would love to hear you explain it to me.then we might get somewhere.
All the Best.:)
So you've given up trying to argue your point now?
You think Europe is wonderful but within that poxy little gentle-men's club of Continental crap like pate and Horse meat, you must remember this.
After Britain, the U.S. And Canada freed western Europe and the war was long over. The EU was created.
What happened when Britain applied to join?
The French bastards try to stop us from joining after we freed their country at a cost of thousands of U.S./birtish lives. They dragged their heels deep through the mud to try and stop us. This why i have no respect, time or care for the Europe or it's indescisive, snobby, Pathetic, continental, thrifty, biased, unjust and utter ****e Union.
The EU is like a kids school play, All thte false parents bundle for a front seat just to watch what can be only described as utter ****e.
As for the united states of Europe.......
Winston Churchill's call in 1945 for a "United States of Europe," a federation of European states to promote harmonious relations between nations, economic cooperation, and a sense of European identity, has caused him to be regarded as the father of European unity. While in opposition, Churchill argued forcefully at home and abroad that a united Europe was the best means to heal residual hatred from the Second World War. Yet Churchill's rhetoric is sometimes difficult to reconcile with his ambivalence regarding Britain's role in his proposed federation, particularly after he returned to power in October 1951.
What churchill wnated just simply hasn't happened though hazzer, he wanted britain to have a lead role, which it does not. I would be more 'pro EU' if britain was given the respect it deserves.
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Originally posted by Laurie
Toad youre shooting yourself in the foot her ebecause 99% of white americans are British in their ancsetory, you forget that your nation of constitutional adoration and land of starts and stripes is still a young one.
German ancestry dominated America in the early 1800s. You also have French and British and other minorities from Western Europe. America was already multinational since its inception.
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I think the UK should Join NAFTA, Throw Mexico out of it and be done with the EU.
We should also make sure the French stop sticking their Refugee camps right next to the channel Tunnel too.
I agree that the UK does not get the respect it deserves in the EU, The Spanish have done a great Job of decimating the Scottish fishing Industry, What right does the Spanish have to go into UK/ Scottish waters and fish the life out of it?
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Originally posted by 1K3
German ancestry dominated America in the early 1800s. You also have French and British and other minorities from Western Europe. America was already multinational since its inception.
No way.
BTW, you didn't even have a "Germany" back then.
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Originally posted by lazs2
laurie.. only the left pushes multiculturalism.. It is not popular with people... it shoved down their throats. The idea is to destroy any remaining sense of country so that socialism can thrive.
lazs
I don't fear multiculturism, and I voted for the Conservative party last election.
Multiculturism does work because the influx of different cultures eventually defines a culture. Your culture in the US and ours in the UK are the result of the amalgamation and integration of different cultures over many generations. Obvious example is our language, which has evolved as a result of cultural integration - Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, Jewish, Afro-Caribbean, Hindi & many others. English, the most expressive, adaptable and flexible language on Earth, which is obviously part of our culture.
Put up the barbed wire fences and become isolated and the natural evolution of culture will stagnate. The most culturally isolated state at present is North Korea, which last time I looked was Socialist. China, USSR, Cuba, East Germany were all self isolated and desperately anti-multiculturist. History shows that socialism only thrives when a country's population is prevented from multicultural interaction. I'm struggling with your arguement that multiculturism is a socialist ideology.
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I don't see multiculturism as a good thing anymore.
Maybe at one point in time it was good, when the cultures in question brought something new and helpful into the place they migrated to, with hopes of being accepted as part of there new country. They actually felt honored to be considered a part of the host country by its populace.
Now though it seems that the newb cultures coming into europe, and the usa have nothing to offer except to ramble on about how great their country is and how much of a dump the host country is. They bring diseases, crime, a teardown atitude in which one time nice towns and neighborhoods are turned into places that even toughguys won't go into at night.
Hey i wish it wasn't this way, but i can travel 5 miles in any direction, and what once used to be really nice places to live are ****holes now. Older guy i know called it the great white flight.
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Hehe, I see what you mean...Whisky.
And when and where is a "nation"?
" the result of the amalgamation and integration of different cultures over many generations"
This is what finally merges into a pot of many other things and forms a nation.
I have been quarreling with norsemen about whether a person was icelandic or norse, - when Iceland had been under it's own parliament for some 300 years. Backing 300 years in U.S. history brings you behind the Boston tea party. So is the person in question today still English?
Also, in another thread (guns, crime and the swiss), there is a social issue in scrutiny, - the USA has as a whole a very different crime pattern from Europe, and the issue of non-comparability because of the multi-culture construction of the USA.
Does that mean that the USA still does not yet properly define itself as a nation?
It goes round and round, - but a beautifully and relatively peacufully mixed multi-cultural country that still hosts a nation, are the British.
We had our cod wars with you, but we like you all the same, brits :aok
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I see, you live in New York.
NY and Los Angeles are places where most immigrants start. When hard-working immigrants receive Permanent Residency (Green Card) or become US Citizens, they will leave the sheet-hole right away and go to places where they can start the "real" American Life (Las Vegas is a good example):)
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Originally posted by Speed55
I don't see multiculturism as a good thing anymore.
Maybe at one point in time it was good, when the cultures in question brought something new and helpful into the place they migrated to, with hopes of being accepted as part of there new country. They actually felt honored to be considered a part of the host country by its populace.
Now though it seems that the newb cultures coming into europe, and the usa have nothing to offer except to ramble on about how great their country is and how much of a dump the host country is. They bring diseases, crime, a teardown atitude in which one time nice towns and neighborhoods are turned into places that even toughguys won't go into at night.
Hey i wish it wasn't this way, but i can travel 5 miles in any direction, and what once used to be really nice places to live are ****holes now. Older guy i know called it the great white flight.
Exactly,
It ha dnow gone totally overboard, in some towns and cities in the UK white english males are a minority, its an absoloute joke.
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I would take exception with you on the british colonies... they thrived after they had gotten the british boot off of their throat.
Not really.
Most British colonies did worse after the end of British rule than they did under it.
As an example, look at Ghana. In 1960, a few years after it was granted independence, the average Briton was 39 times richer than the average Ghanain. Now, 50 years after they "got the British boot off their throat", the average Briton is 92 times richer than the average Ghanain.
It's a similar story throughout Africa. Following independence, the gap in wealth between Britain and the ex-colony widened.
That's true for most ex British colonies throughout the world, too.
The only ones that got richer relative to Britain between 1960 and 1990 were Lesotho, Pakistan, Egypt, Botswana, Malaysia, Malta, Barbados, Cyprus, Israel, Ireland, Singapore, Canada and the United States. (not all fit the precise definition of colony)
The rest, and there are a lot of them, did relatively worse after independence than they had under British rule.
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Originally posted by Laurie
Exactly,
It ha dnow gone totally overboard, in some towns and cities in the UK white english males are a minority, its an absoloute joke.
So it's not their culture you object to, but their non white skin colour.
My dad spent 4 years serving his country in the fight against this sort of irrational and perverted ideology.
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Originally posted by Angus
It goes round and round, - but a beautifully and relatively peacufully mixed multi-cultural country that still hosts a nation, are the British.
Good post & well said Angus :aok
I personally forgive you for stealing our fish and next time you're in England
I'll treat you to some fine Yorkshire ale :)
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Laurie Britain doesn't have a lead role, because it can't decide where it's interests lie.When we fallout with the US we run to Europe,when we fall out with Europe we run to the US.
We need to decide were are best interests lay,and to do that we need a tough decisive leader like a churchill.
We could be up there ,with the french and germans if we had someone with the political will to take us there.Most modern politicians don't have vision,they have advisers,and think tanks nor do they have the historical insight,an vision that churchill had.
The last time Europe was united and at peace with itself was under the Roman occupation,Churchill was only to aware of this,and a Holocaust and two world wars later he made his statement.
Churchill new that to achieve a lasting peace in Europe the European states had to be Unified,here we have a chance to do it by choice rather than by conquest!!If we had but half a Brain cell we would Grab it an never let it go.
Europe isn't about Butter mountains and wine lakes or Straight Bannas's,Forget that Chit,It's far more important than any of that.
And the US is sick an tired of sorting out European squabbles and who can blame them.Thx by the way
.
As for multiculturalism,most cities are multicultiural,and seem to work pretty well,would we have London any other way.
:aok
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Good post & well said Angus :aok
I personally forgive you for stealing our fish and next time you're in England
I'll treat you to some fine Yorkshire ale :)
YOUR FISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Spent last winter fishing from way south to the NW of Iceland)
I am often in England, but haven't really been in Yorkshire. Will definately be in England this autumn, maybe more than once. A business trip will leave me as fas up as Doncaster or so. How far to yer ale?
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Originally posted by Whisky58
So it's not their culture you object to, but their non white skin colour.
My dad spent 4 years serving his country in the fight against this sort of irrational and perverted ideology.
Its not ideology my friend, its a fact. I am not racist, i do not think white men are any better than black.
But if you bear with me and do not jump to irrational conclusions then i think you'll see my viewpoint , even if you don't agree with it.
England(and most of Europe) was traditionally a country of white skinned brunettes/blonds, am i right?. just like Africa is traditionally a society of black people with black/brown hair.
What i find so hard to understand is how this can change in such a short space of time compared to anywhere else in the world. Also, why have we thrown our heritage out the window to suit men in Brussels?
What i believe and have stated in this thread is NOT RASCIST despite the paranoia amongst some of you. You don't see any cities in Asia where the 'traditional' ways of life and stereotypes of peoples have been outnumbered by a foreign race of peoples.
For example, Iran;
It is illegal to walk the streets without full clothing ( headscarf etc) that corresponds to some verses of the Quran, yes a book which is meaningless to anyone but a Muslim. Now surely this is wrong? But no its ok because they're Muslims and we couldn't possibly upset them.
Now what i want is simply to have people that wish to live and work in OUR country to adopt OUR culture rather than to do their own thing.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
Laurie Britain doesn't have a lead role, because it can't decide where it's interests lie.When we fallout with the US we run to Europe,when we fall out with Europe we run to the US.
We need to decide were are best interests lay,and to do that we need a tough decisive leader like a churchill.
We could be up there ,with the french and germans if we had someone with the political will to take us there.Most modern politicians don't have vision,they have advisers,and think tanks nor do they have the historical insight,an vision that churchill had.
The last time Europe was united and at peace with itself was under the Roman occupation,Churchill was only to aware of this,and a Holocaust and two world wars later he made his statement.
Churchill new that to achieve a lasting peace in Europe the European states had to be Unified,here we have a chance to do it by choice rather than by conquest!!If we had but half a Brain cell we would Grab it an never let it go.
Europe isn't about Butter mountains and wine lakes or Straight Bannas's,Forget that Chit,It's far more important than any of that.
And the US is sick an tired of sorting out European squabbles and who can blame them.Thx by the way
.
As for multiculturalism,most cities are multicultiural,and seem to work pretty well,would we have London any other way.
:aok
Haha, how is it up there on cloud 9?
Makes me laugh, a day or so ago you disagreed with my opinion of the need for a churchill figure as you felt was an imprielistic war-mongerer, funny how you change like the wind.
You dont see it? British leaders wont go the full m ile with europe because it's ac ommon fact that the british public DONT LIKE IT. Your tangents and ideals are simp,y a minority in britain.
Ever wondered Why Blair doesn't want a referendum????????
And if you are ****-eyed enough to think that the germans, french and spanish would treat us with our deserved respect if we really took european comitment by the horns, you are frankly niave.
The french despise us, the germans fear us, and the spanish envy us.
So frankly i really can't see why Britain should crawl on it's hands and knees just to be kicke din the balls AGAIN.
Just wondering.... What did you think of Lady Thatcher?
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Originally posted by Whisky58
So it's not their culture you object to, but their non white skin colour.
My dad spent 4 years serving his country in the fight against this sort of irrational and perverted ideology.
IF you are trying to hint at WW2 to here,
then Oh boy you'd better be very, very careful who you start calling a nazi my miniscule friend.
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It makes me chuckle how Hazzer and others standing along with him always resort to heckling someone as being racist or Nazi like whenever they lose arguments to people who are simply patriotic.
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Originally posted by Laurie
It makes me chuckle how Hazzer and others standing along with him always resort to heckling someone as being racist or Nazi like whenever they lose arguments to people who are simply patriotic.
Old game. The left in America have been playing it for years.
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To me Patriotism means loving your country.while I feel Nationalism is not so much loving your country as hating others.
Laurie,I think at Best your a Nationalist,I would never call you a patriot as you clearly hate a significant portion of the British public.
Churchill was an imperialist,but in trying to save his Empire he did save the Western world,and he was a man of charachter an vision.Never the less when WWII ended,the Britsh ppl voted for Atlee,they wanted somthing better than the old Europe.
Thatcher.I admire her strength of charachter.
Oh,and my Father fought in wwII also,and his Artillery Regiment Liberated Bergen Belsen,which is where intolerant thinking Like yours Leads.
:(
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Originally posted by Laurie
You dont see it? British leaders wont go the full m ile with europe because it's ac ommon fact that the british public DONT LIKE IT. Your tangents and ideals are simp,y a minority in britain.
Ever wondered Why Blair doesn't want a referendum????????
We already did that.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Thatcher_europe.jpg)
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Toad - there must be something we haven't had an argument about. How about the best way to serve a fillet steak? :D
Laurie - you really ought to get out into the wider world, but since you are at school I can make allowances - no doubt you will get the opportunity.
I work for a large privately owned American conglomerate and we have operations on every continent. Europe is something we do a hell of alot of business with and our place alongside France and Germany is something we should welcome. In my job I've met people from all over Europe, from Finland to Turkey - there is mutual respect there... and healthy competition.
Your attitudes about the French, Spanish and Germans are something straight out of a 'Till Death Do Us Part' episode. Times have changed, and so has Britain's place in the world - your position is as dated as the attached picture from the series.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/images/220/tilldeathusdopart_1.jpg)
The EU is a powerful economic force that Britain needs. The Germans don't want to dominate; they only this week stated their opposition to a constitution or an appointment of a foreign minister to represent the EU.
The EU is helping to bring the old Eastern Bloc countries in from the cold. I don't mind my taxes going towards them making that transition - the US, UK and France abandoned them to Stalin after WWII and that needs to be remedied.
BTW, Laurie, for future discussions, please don't plagiarise online content; include your references. You took this straight from the net:
Winston Churchill's call in 1945 for a "United States of Europe," a federation of European states to promote harmonious relations between nations, economic cooperation, and a sense of European identity, has caused him to be regarded as the father of European unity. While in opposition, Churchill argued forcefully at home and abroad that a united Europe was the best means to heal residual hatred from the Second World War. Yet Churchill's rhetoric is sometimes difficult to reconcile with his ambivalence regarding Britain's role in his proposed federation, particularly after he returned to power in October 1951.
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Originally posted by Laurie
You don't see any cities in Asia where the 'traditional' ways of life and stereotypes of peoples have been outnumbered by a foreign race of peoples.
Wrong.
Even a superficial glance at the history and demography of Asia shows that it has been a place of constant racial flux and mixing, with traditional ways of life changing and evolving.
Delhi, Jaipur and Bombay(Mumbai), to name a few that I've visited, are cities that are melting pots of different races, religions, cultures and traditions. Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Parsi, Jain etc. Hong-Kong is the other obvious example.
(India is also the largest democracy in the world - largely as a result of the influence of that wicked & evil British Empire:) )
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We had a referendum in 1975.:aok :aok
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Churchill was in the USA during WW2, and had to suffer an interview with a certain lady, closely related with influential pople from the U.S. press.
(no names)
The lady was hot-headed about the British imperialism (seems to me like a miniscule issue of importance in those dark days), - anyway, she was particularly inquisitive about India, and asked Churchill about what the British were to do to improve the very low life standards of the Indians.
Churchill replied something like "Do you refer to the prospering brown indians of the British, or do you refer to the red indians of the Americans, - who I belive have mostly disappeared"?
Not accurate and out of memory, but something to ponder on all the same.
And Laurie, take a good breath will you.
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Whiskey,I didn't say the British Empire was Evil,the British Empire was probably the most benign Empire the world has known,But Empire is wrong.in my book.:)
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Originally posted by Laurie
IF you are trying to hint at WW2 to here,
then Oh boy you'd better be very, very careful who you start calling a nazi my miniscule friend.
Of course I'm referring to WW2 - how many 4+ year long wars do you think my dad could possibly have been in?
I don't think you're a Nazi Laurie, but it illustrates how a few ill-chosen words about skin colour can rapidly up the ante and fuel those extremists on all sides who exploit racial differences for their own nasty political aims. It also has a habit of turning rational debate into an insult fest.
My view of multiculturism is not lots of different cultures sitting side by side in isolation from each other within a country, but the blending of cultures to produce a stronger culture. It's like animal husbandry and breeding. I hate to keep harping on about history but Britain really is a good example of how the integration of different cultures leads to strength. You're obviously proud of your British ancestory and heritage Laurie, & I'm proud of mine, but that heritage is comprised of a diverse mix of cultures. To a Romano-Brit living in 5th century England, the Anglo-Saxons would have been as culturally remote as a muslim Pakistani is to me - probably more so because at least we have the common heritage of the British Empire. There will always be friction for a few generations between different cultures rubbing shoulders - humans are tribal animals. Compared to having hoards of Anglo-Saxons killing and pillaging I think cultural integration in Britain at present is fairly smooth. The Anglo-Saxons brought some pretty poor ideas with them (eg polytheism, trial by combat) but also some good technology and agriculture and their contribution to language. I don't think anyone in the UK (apart from a few extremist "Celts", whatever they are) would deny that with time the integration of Anglo-Saxon culture in Britain was a good thing.
I don't like people who come here to sponge off our welfare state. I don't like people who make no attempt to integrate or learn English. I don't like people who come here and take advantage of our liberal laws to slag Britain off. I don't like the hypocracy that surrounds the way race problems are dealt with by officials. I don't like religious and racial fundamentalists, supremists and extremists. I don't like bigots and ignorance.
I work in Bradford. I've been racially abused in my own country - how do you think that makes me feel? My experience is that the majority of immigrants want to contribute something positive to our culture, and that's just fine with me.
As far as Europeans being "traditionally" white and Africans being "traditionally" black, it depends how far back in time you regard "tradition". The current human evolution scientific orthodoxy is that we are all descended from common African ancestors who were almost certainly black skinned, as were their descendent who migrated into Europe. White skins evolved in northern latitudes over a long period of time to increase vitamin D production in the skin in areas of low sunlight - thus preventing rickets.
Finally, I've been insulted in many ways over the last 49 years, especially on rugby pitches, but I've never, ever been described as miniscule before. It's a first- I'll treasure it :aok
Regards
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Originally posted by Hazzer
Whiskey,I didn't say the British Empire was Evil,the British Empire was probably the most benign Empire the world has known,But Empire is wrong.in my book.:)
Agreed mate. Just trying to point out clumsily that the British Empire wasn't all bad. :)
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Clumsy British Empire occupied my country in 1940 on the same day as Hitler launched the advance on the western front. 10th of may.
While the Netherlands and France suffered terrible years to come, my country had a complete British Gentleman to deal with, and it was, despite of losses in war, - better times in many ways.
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As clumsily as i have put it through these 6 pages of posts,
i'm sick and tired of thing's like 'bar bar blue sheep' as oppossed to black sheep. It's political correctedness gone mad, can you be in favour of things like this?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Not really.
Most British colonies did worse after the end of British rule than they did under it.
As an example, look at Ghana. In 1960, a few years after it was granted independence, the average Briton was 39 times richer than the average Ghanain. Now, 50 years after they "got the British boot off their throat", the average Briton is 92 times richer than the average Ghanain.
It's a similar story throughout Africa. Following independence, the gap in wealth between Britain and the ex-colony widened.
That's true for most ex British colonies throughout the world, too.
The only ones that got richer relative to Britain between 1960 and 1990 were Lesotho, Pakistan, Egypt, Botswana, Malaysia, Malta, Barbados, Cyprus, Israel, Ireland, Singapore, Canada and the United States. (not all fit the precise definition of colony)
The rest, and there are a lot of them, did relatively worse after independence than they had under British rule.
I think Ireland could be an exception to this, they now have a booming economy by being fully integrated into Europe, That works for them, But I'm not so sure that EU Integration works for the UK, Most people in the UK see themselves as British and not European. Look what happened to the Euro in the UK for example, Anyway, Scotland has the SNP in charge there now, Not long till they hold a vote on being part of the UK and then you will see a different dynamic taking place in British Politics and indeed in the Cultural sense too.
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Are you out of Vegas and back in Cali?
Call.
Mac
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Originally posted by Hawco
I think Ireland could be an exception to this, they now have a booming economy by being fully integrated into Europe, That works for them, But I'm not so sure that EU Integration works for the UK, Most people in the UK see themselves as British and not European. Look what happened to the Euro in the UK for example, Anyway, Scotland has the SNP in charge there now, Not long till they hold a vote on being part of the UK and then you will see a different dynamic taking place in British Politics and indeed in the Cultural sense too.
The inevitbale end of 'Great Britain'/'United Kngdom will be a dark day for brtish history and dreadful shame.
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:noid
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It is funny that when America has racial and cultural problems with its much more diverse population... we are chastised as biggots and racists and such but...
As other socialist nations begin to feel the pinch of a fraction of our multiculturalism.. it is a mixture of fury and poor me that comes out.
Perhaps it is good.. perhaps you need to see just a tiny taste of what we deal with every day in numbers you could not possibly understand.
lazs
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Originally posted by Laurie
i'm sick and tired of thing's like 'bar bar blue sheep' as oppossed to black sheep.
Are you frikkin kidding me on this? No way...
:lol
:noid
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http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-rutten23jun23,1,2535413.column?ctrack=2&cset=true
Good article.
In democracy, the only right we do not have is the right to offend. You'll see that midway through the piece, but that's not the author's main point.
Enough of this folderol.
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Originally posted by Stang
Are you frikkin kidding me on this? No way...
:lol
:noid
actually, a nursery school changed it to bah bah rainbow sheep so as not to offend black peeps.
we still see everyone as black/white/asian/muslim/whatever here. we don't see each other as equals, which is what is pissing us off. white brits take the back burner in our society because emphasis is on ethnic minorities, which is bloody annoying, seeing as we should all be treated equally. that's what is pissing people off, not racism, but our racism against ourselves.
anyone in britain is not seen as british, which they should be. instead people are broken into groups and some groups are given far more than others in an effort to be 'equal'
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Originally posted by lazs2
It is funny that when America has racial and cultural problems with its much more diverse population... we are chastised as biggots and racists and such but...
As other socialist nations begin to feel the pinch of a fraction of our multiculturalism.. it is a mixture of fury and poor me that comes out.
Perhaps it is good.. perhaps you need to see just a tiny taste of what we deal with every day in numbers you could not possibly understand.
lazs
I've read some ill-informed & patronising comments on these BBs, but those above are classics.
The British Empire covered one quarter of the world's land area at it's peak. We have immigrants from all of these countries. Many immigrants fleeing the Nazi occupation came to the UK. With EU regulations we have a recent influx of ex-communist bloc states. How diverse does it get?
We've had multiculturism in the UK since the Roman invasion - 2000 years of it.
You'll be telling us how to suck eggs next.
Read some history.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
actually, a nursery school changed it to bah bah rainbow sheep so as not to offend black peeps.
we still see everyone as black/white/asian/muslim/whatever here. we don't see each other as equals, which is what is pissing us off. white brits take the back burner in our society because emphasis is on ethnic minorities, which is bloody annoying, seeing as we should all be treated equally. that's what is pissing people off, not racism, but our racism against ourselves.
anyone in britain is not seen as british, which they should be. instead people are broken into groups and some groups are given far more than others in an effort to be 'equal'
Absolutely. Multiculturism in the UK isn't the problem, it's the governmental, police and official hypocracy dealing with racial issues that causes most antagonism.
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The only indigenous ppl in north America are red,in North America the caucasian population, was the beggining of multicultural North America.
You were all immigrants once,or at least your ancestors were.:aok
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whiskey... maybe your soldiers knew multiculturalism...
You want to look at the makeup of your tiny little island and then look at the makeup of our country? If you are 95% white it is easy to accept an indian resteraunt or two.
lazs
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Originally posted by Laurie
...
The french despise us,
...
Explain me how can we support people drinking warm beer ?
Btw your posts are so B.N.P like it doesn't make them worth a reply.
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Originally posted by lazs2
whiskey... maybe your soldiers knew multiculturalism...
You want to look at the makeup of your tiny little island and then look at the makeup of our country? If you are 95% white it is easy to accept an indian resteraunt or two.
lazs
Where I work (Bradford), 40% of deliveries of new babies are black Asian - check it out, and there are more Indian/Tandoori restaurants in Bradford than any other type, which is fine because I like curry.
So if the majority are white, it's easy to accept a non-white minority? That smacks of good old skin colour predjudice and ignores the fact that many immigrants in the UK are white.
What's with this "tiny little island" patronising approach? Read an authoritative history book instead of watching Hollywood and write an essay comparing the relative contributions of the UK compared with the USA to world culture, science, language, invention, music, art, literature, law, government, sport and just about any other barometer of civilisation with the exception of space travel and the Foo Fighters and let me know your conclusions.
Regards.
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People should be judged on the contents of their character,that's it, full stop.
The Bigotry and intolerance on these boards is really starting to depress me.
:(
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Originally posted by Whisky58
...and just about any other barometer of civilisation with the exception of space travel...
Space travel was made possible by some very clever men from Germany. It just so happened they were working in the USSR and the USA at the time.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
You were all immigrants once,or at least your ancestors were.:aok
Including Native Americans... We came across the Bering Land Bridge about 14,000 years ago.
Even though a portion of my family tree goes thru the Pima of Arizona, I know that I am of African origin. I have traced my ancestry to a small austrolipithicine village on the shores of what is now Lake Tanganyika... before that the paper trail gets lost.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Including Native Americans... We came across the Bering Land Bridge about 14,000 years ago.
Even though a portion of my family tree goes thru the Pima of Arizona, I know that I am of African origin. I have traced my ancestry to a small austrolipithicine village on the shores of what is now Lake Tanganyika... before that the paper trail gets lost.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Including Native Americans... We came across the Bering Land Bridge about 14,000 years ago.
Even though a portion of my family tree goes thru the Pima of Arizona, I know that I am of African origin. I have traced my ancestry to a small austrolipithicine village on the shores of what is now Lake Tanganyika... before that the paper trail gets lost.
And I thought you were descended from that famous Scottish clan the McGroins, neighbours to the lesser known Mcapple clan :)
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A report published today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development states that foreign born nationals make up just under 10% of Britains population. Not that it bothers me particularly.
As for Scotland leaving the UK i say good ridance! The scottish get free university education + drugs on the NHS which are not available in the UK. They have more money spent per head in scotland that anywhere else in the UK and contribute sod all taxes.
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whiskey... I don't know where you live but if you are trying to say that your country is anywhere near as diverse as America then the facts do no bear you out. You are almost totally white with a few blacks and some indians.
My state has whites at a minority. I think you may be able to see the difference.
lazs
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Originally posted by thrila
A report published today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development states that foreign born nationals make up just under 10% of Britains population. Not that it bothers me particularly.
As for Scotland leaving the UK i say good ridance! The scottish get free university education + drugs on the NHS which are not available in the UK. They have more money spent per head in scotland that anywhere else in the UK and contribute sod all taxes.
what are your sentiments to a united and independant Ireland?
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Originally posted by lazs2
whiskey... I don't know where you live but if you are trying to say that your country is anywhere near as diverse as America then the facts do no bear you out. You are almost totally white with a few blacks and some indians.
My state has whites at a minority. I think you may be able to see the difference.
lazs
The US has more blacks as a percentage of total population than the UK - can't argue with that. However, the majority of US blacks can trace their ancestral origins to a well defined & relatively small part of western Africa. That's not diversity.
Looks like I'm going to have to buy you a dictionary along with the history book and atlas (doesn't know where Bradford is). I'll try to find one with plenty of pictures.
BTW - if you can't form a rational arguement lazs, at least please try to spell my handle correctly.
Whiskey is some sort of cough mixture distilled in the southern US states and used to remove flies from car windscreens in the UK.
Whisky is the nectar of gods, crafted with centuries of experience by big, hairy men in Scotland.
Regards.
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whisky... My grandfather was born in scotland. I have been to your country but not every little village.. I did not see the diversity that you speak of.
You should try to travel around in mine. it is a rather large country but you will see that the makeup is indeed very diverse compared to your country.
lazs
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You didnt go very far then did you Lazs???
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I put about 1000 miles on a rental car while I was there.
lazs
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You lapped Scotland 4 times? ;)
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Wow a whole 1000miles ....well thats it then your the leading authority on the United Kingdom.....
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Originally posted by expat
Wow a whole 1000miles ....well thats it then your the leading authority on the United Kingdom.....
On Scotland anyway... I doubt he drove to NI.
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Originally posted by lazs2
whisky... My grandfather was born in scotland. I have been to your country but not every little village.. I did not see the diversity that you speak of.
You should try to travel around in mine. it is a rather large country but you will see that the makeup is indeed very diverse compared to your country.
lazs
I've been to California, New Mexico, Texas, Chicago and New York - again only a small sample but 4 trips in all. My brother has married an American and has lived in New York for 12 years.
I guess we'll have to agree to differ, but if you've got Scottish blood in your veins we should, at least, agree about whisky:)
Regards
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Nearly forgot a brief stop over in Phoenix, but too short to really count.
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I never claimed to be an expert on your island. I never claimed to have spent much time there. just the facts.
the facts about your diversity and ours are readily available. your population is no where as diverse. I am sorry you are feeling the pinch. I could have predicted that eventually you would.
We have been dealing with it for a long time... during all this time we have listened to people of other countries tell us how we should do it and all the things we are doing wrong and how we should embrace multiculturalism.
When I drank I drank single malt because that is what my granddad said I should drink... but... I drank enough that if there was nothing else I would drink sterno.
I don't drink at all anymore. My life is better.
lazs
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Youd better not go back to Scotland then theyd burn you at the stake for being a heratic :)
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no... I think they would give up after I shot the first dozen of so drunks.
lazs
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yawn
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Oh... I'm sorry.. am I boring you? ya see, when my great grandfather brought my grandfather here.. they embraced the new country.. why come here if you don't?
My grandfather was punished if he spoke with an accent. His son and daughters and grandkids grew up with America and guns and movies and disneyland and los angles of the 40's and 50's.
We never thought about bonfires or burning people at the stake or clans of any of that crap.. we embraced the firearm as something to protect us and ours.
soooo... it is only natural that when the torch bearing barbarians come calling we send them home on pallets with bullet wounds.
Which brings us full circle... I am not a scot. I am an American... as was my dad and my grandfather. We may have added to this culture but we did not live apart from it.
they felt... as I feel that the things about me that are from scotland are nice to go to a scottish games day at the fair or talk about with family or whatever but just a curiosity... not who we are... who we are is Americans.
Americans have guns and don't talk with funny accents (except for easterners who have very annoying accents).
What we have done is what you want your "immigrants" to do now. I personaly think that they picked the wrong country but hey.. they are there.. they should assimilate.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hazzer
We had a referendum in 1975.:aok :aok
And The Labour government promised us one in the early 21st century:aok
Yes the government in which Gordon Brown was a pivotal part of and had more influence in than most;).
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Of course I'm referring to WW2 - how many 4+ year long wars do you think my dad could possibly have been in?
Vietnam,
Korea(give or take 6 months or so.)
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Originally posted by Laurie
Vietnam,
Korea(give or take 6 months or so.)
How many British servicemen were there in Vietnam?
Korean war was 1950-53.
Regards
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Originally posted by Whisky58
How many British servicemen were there in Vietnam?
Korean war was 1950-53.
Regards
yes i know, 'give or take 6 months or so'
you never told me your father was british.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oh... I'm sorry.. am I boring you? ya see, when my great grandfather brought my grandfather here.. they embraced the new country.. why come here if you don't?
My grandfather was punished if he spoke with an accent. His son and daughters and grandkids grew up with America and guns and movies and disneyland and los angles of the 40's and 50's.
We never thought about bonfires or burning people at the stake or clans of any of that crap.. we embraced the firearm as something to protect us and ours.
soooo... it is only natural that when the torch bearing barbarians come calling we send them home on pallets with bullet wounds.
Which brings us full circle... I am not a scot. I am an American... as was my dad and my grandfather. We may have added to this culture but we did not live apart from it.
they felt... as I feel that the things about me that are from scotland are nice to go to a scottish games day at the fair or talk about with family or whatever but just a curiosity... not who we are... who we are is Americans.
Americans have guns and don't talk with funny accents (except for easterners who have very annoying accents).
What we have done is what you want your "immigrants" to do now. I personaly think that they picked the wrong country but hey.. they are there.. they should assimilate.
lazs
All the true 'True Americans' are long gone and dead at the hands of your new "American" race. :aok
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Originally posted by Laurie
All the true 'True Americans' are long gone and dead at the hands of your new "American" race. :aok
explain please.
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Originally posted by john9001
explain please.
The Native Americans, sometimes known as Red Indians.
You know the ones almost totally wiped out through turkey shoots of cowboys i believe.
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Ah, I see Laurie graduate from the Hollywood School of American Studies. Well done, chap!
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Originally posted by Stang
Are you frikkin kidding me on this? No way...
:lol
:noid
Nope sir, in state nursery school, a parent of a child with black skin complained as she found the traditional nursery rhyme
'Baa baa Black sheep'
To be racially discriminative and derogatory so now all teachers are advised by the government to use baa baa blue sheep,
to avoid any potential law suits.
I mean com-on, not even hazzer or whisky can be in favour of this sorta nonsensical BS surely?
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Originally posted by Toad
Ah, I see Laurie graduate from the Hollywood School of American Studies. Well done, chap!
Please enlighten me on the meaning of this term?
I am not from around your parts.
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Originally posted by Laurie
I am not from around your parts.
obviously.
google "Navajo nation".
"The Navajo Nation (Dine'é in Navajo language) is a Native American sovereignty. The Navajo Reservation covers about 27,000 square miles (70,000 square kilometres, 17 million acres) of land, occupying all of northeastern Arizona, and extending into Utah and New Mexico, and is the largest land area assigned primarily to a Native American jurisdiction within the United States. Members of the nation are often known as Navajo (or Navaho) but traditionally call themselves Diné (sometimes spelled in English as Dineh) which means people.
The 2000 census reported 298,215 Navajo people living throughout the United States, of which 173,987 were living within the Navajo Nation boundaries. 131,166 lived in Arizona and 17,512 of these lived in Maricopa County, which includes the city of Phoenix. Because the Navajo Nation encompasses land in three states, its Division of Economic Development extracts census data for the Navajo Nation as a whole, and sends a representative to the Census Board. Another group lives on the Colorado River Indian Tribes reservation along the Colorado River in California and Arizona."
hardly "wiped out"
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Originally posted by Laurie
Nope sir, in state nursery school, a parent of a child with black skin complained as she found the traditional nursery rhyme
'Baa baa Black sheep'
To be racially discriminative and derogatory so now all teachers are advised by the government to use baa baa blue sheep,
to avoid any potential law suits.
I mean com-on, not even hazzer or whisky can be in favour of this sorta nonsensical BS surely?
LOL - cheap shot mate. Read my posts carefully Laurie, especially the two where I state clearly how I dislike the hypocracy towards racial issues that is endemic in many British institutions, & that includes education, at present. If you're struggling with any of the long words, ask an adult.
I agree, this is total bs. However, in my innocent youth "gollywogs" and "The Black & White Minstrel Show" were the norm and I think most reasonable people would consider them offensive now.
The lefty, do-gooders with beards and cardies who propagate this sort of nonsense need an injection of common sense & a slap around the face to make them realise that by pandering to this rubbish they not only irritate decent folk but also give the unpleasant little fascists in our society more propaganda to fuel their perverse ideologies.
I've worked with many black, brown and yellow skinned colleagues over the years and I'm certain that they would laugh and shake their heads in disbelief at the thought that anyone could consider Baa, baa, black sheep to be anything other than a benign nursery rhyme.
Regards.
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Originally posted by john9001
hardly "wiped out"
hardly flourished either.
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I hate the pc brigade.I distrust all politicians.I believe in live and let live,and hate injustice.
By the way,Anyone born in the United States is "NATIVE",the red Indian tribes are "INDIGENOUS". :aok
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thank you hazzer.. like here... brit education must have been better back when you went to school than it is now that laurie is going...
The indigenous indians here were slaughtering each other when we got here..
They either claimed they had the right to sell the land or... that there was no owner... we played by their rules... they lost because they weren't advanced enough to slaughter us as well as they slaughtered each other. Sorta like the reason my people lost to the brits.
Truth is.. people need to assimilate into the country they live in.. otherwise... why not just stay at the craphole they just left? What we have here is blacks who don't try. some do tho and do very well. we have illegals from our southern border.. people who broke our laws in order to get here and grab all they can no matter what laws they break. They don't even bother to learn the language. I see no percentage in allowing that.
In france they have ghettos where there is no assimilation at all of muslims..It is that way in many your-0-peean countries.
lazs
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There is Indian ancestry on both sides of my family Laurie. The news of our extermination has been greatly exaggerated.
If we are going to discuss all the evils done in the past by one ethnic group against another, then perhaps it is only fair to bring up the depredations of Hengist and Horsa, and of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes forcing the "indigenous" Celts of Britain onto the wilder and less hospitable lands of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, after a long period of warfare and wholesale slaughter.
Or of the Scouring of northern England by William the Conqueror that left so many Anglo-Norse residents dead and starving that it took a full century for the population to recover.
Or of the many centuries of warfare waged against the Scots by English monarchs, or of invasions of Scotland that left the land devastated and hundreds of thousands dead of conflict and starvation.
Or of the invasion of Ireland by Norman monarchs and the seizure of Irish lands which were taken over by English landlords. And of how the English government showed very little concern for the starving masses of Irish tenant farms during the infamous Potato Famine.
Every country has these types of skeletons in their closets.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by lazs2
thank you hazzer.. like here... brit education must have been better back when you went to school than it is now that laurie is going...
The indigenous indians here were slaughtering each other when we got here..
We do not learn about the indigenous people of the Americas at Eaton or Harrow, there are much more pressing educational issues at hand.
I was just going on a basic knowledge and recoloction of conversations, and i am open to this new information on the topic which some of you have given, and I am taking it onboard,
BUT this still does not change the fact that just 3 centuries ago The Native people were American Indians and that the white european was just an un-welcome tresspasser..... does it?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
There is Indian ancestry on both sides of my family Laurie. The news of our extermination has been greatly exaggerated.
If we are going to discuss all the evils done in the past by one ethnic group against another, then perhaps it is only fair to bring up the depredations of Hengist and Horsa, and of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes forcing the "indigenous" Celts of Britain onto the wilder and less hospitable lands of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, after a long period of warfare and wholesale slaughter.
1200 years ago, approx.
Or of the Scouring of northern England by William the Conqueror that left so many Anglo-Norse residents dead and starving that it took a full century for the population to recover.
950 years ago
Or of the many centuries of warfare waged against the Scots by English monarchs, or of invasions of Scotland that left the land devastated and hundreds of thousands dead of conflict and starvation.
Buff up on your history, you make it sound as if the Scots were innocent, 400-700 years ago.
Or of the invasion of Ireland by Norman monarchs and the seizure of Irish lands which were taken over by English landlords.
And of how the English government showed very little concern for the starving masses of Irish tenant farms during the infamous Potato Famine.
The Republic of Ireland ,this is a country which had tried to capture areas of our rule and tried to rebel against us, they weren't exactly in our good books, so why act so surprised that we didn't really care too much. Incidentally it was a fungus that came from North America in the holds of ships which actually caused the famine.
Every country has these types of skeletons in their closets.
If these are skeletons, the others must be corpses, no?
Regards, Shuckins [/B]
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So what you're saying is that if we go back far enough in time the depradations of our ancestors no longer count?
As far as it goes, a close study of the history of the English and the Scots would reveal that the English carried out far more invasions of Scotland than the Scots did of England.
In more modern times, I'm sure the natives of Egypt, Sudan, India, the Crimea, the Zulus of South Africa, the people of the Palestinian Mandate and Iraq welcomed their British conquerors and occupiers with open arms.
Didn't they?
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Originally posted by Laurie
We do not learn about the indigenous people of the Americas at Eaton or Harrow,
You have made that abundantly clear, however you continue to spew incorrect information about the subject.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
As far as it goes, a close study of the history of the English and the Scots would reveal that the English carried out far more invasions of Scotland than the Scots did of England.
Yes, but the Scots deserved it because they were in league with the French for much of the time.
In more modern times, I'm sure the natives of Egypt, Sudan, India, the Crimea, the Zulus of South Africa, the people of the Palestinian Mandate and Iraq welcomed their British conquerors and occupiers with open arms.
Didn't they?
No. But if we get right up to date there are 53 countries in the Commonwealth (1.8 billion people) of which 52 are ex-British Empire. These countries are proud of their historical links with Britain.
Regards
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Whiskey,
Who inserted the statement into my post about the Scots deserving it? I'm certain that they have a different take on the matter. :D
While the British Empire was undoubtedly one of the most benevolent in world history, it was nonetheless an empire, which cannot be established without wars, bloodshed, conquest, and occupation, which are deeply resented at the time they take place.
Time has a way of healing old wounds. It may be true that many of the nations that were once part of the Empire or Commonwealth may be proud of that association. Certainly I've seen evidence of it myself. While spending a summer in Cairo, my student group and I were riding a bus when we heard the wierd, skirling strains of bagpipes. An Egyptian army band was marching through the streets playing these reminders of British occupation and rule.
This is the sort of thing that tickles the British fancy, and makes them wax reminiscent about the benefits of British civilization which was spread across the globe by the Empire.
But if you pinned these former British subjects down on the matter, they would probably tell you that they are glad the British are gone, and probably don't want you to come back.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Shuckins
There is Indian ancestry on both sides of my family Laurie. The news of our extermination has been greatly exaggerated.
If we are going to discuss all the evils done in the past by one ethnic group against another, then perhaps it is only fair to bring up the depredations of Hengist and Horsa, and of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes forcing the "indigenous" Celts of Britain onto the wilder and less hospitable lands of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, after a long period of warfare and wholesale slaughter.
Regards, Shuckins
Nice post Shuckins, including the bit I deleted. Just a couple of points tho'.
By the time the Germanic tribes arrived in England (and it was mostly England that they came to), the population was strictly speaking "Romano-British" and had been for 450 years since the Roman invasion & occupation. Many Romans settled in Britain & became "British" and many Brits became Romanised as the two cultures merged. When the Roman armies (made up largely by northern european mercenaries) were forced to leave as a result of Vandals & Goths threatening Rome the British pleaded with them not to go, fearing raids from hostile Scandinavian & Germanic tribes. The Angles were initially invited to Britain as mercenaries to protect the indigenous population, but got a bit out of hand! It was the Romans who displaced the "Celts", not the Germanic tribes. In fact it was probably less of a displacement and more an integration. The less hospitable lands were already occupied by Celtic speaking tribes who were just left alone by the Romans. Hadrian's and Antonine walls were built to keep the Picts & the Scots out. The lowlands of Scotland to the north of Hadrian's wall is a very pleasant and fertile place to live.
The concept of the "Celts" as a race or tribe is a myth. More accurately it describes a diverse variety of races and cultures who spoke "Celtic" languages derived from an Indo-European Celtic root, whose origins were from the birthplace of agriculture - the Middle East, what is now Iraq & Iran. These Celtic speakers moved west and displaced or integrated with the ancient Brits a few thousand years ago - nobody is exactly sure when. When the Romans arrived in Britain they found it occupied by a mixed bag of Celtic speaking tribes who spent much of their time fighting each other. None of the British tribes described themselves as Celts. The story of notable local resistance and revolt against the Romans by Boudicca and the Icenae tribe is a catalogue of inter tribal treachery and betrayal. The popular modern image of the Celts being some sort of romantic, pastural, musical, spiritual unified race in touch with nature is nonsense.
The Celt myth was largely invented by a guy called Edward Lhuyd at the beginning of the 18th century. He was a Welsh patriot who resented English dominance and wanted to give Wales it's own history separate from England's. He claimed that the Celts had been a great warrior race who dominated Europe and had terrorised the Romans, and that the Welsh were their direct descendants. These nationalistic, anti-English sentiments struck a chord in parts of Scotland and Ireland and hence the Celt myth prospered, particularly in the romantic mid and late 19th century.
Celtic languages are still spoken in west Scotland, north & central Wales, west Ireland, south-west England & north-west France, but they are all distinct and separate languages, and I hope they don't become extinct. Modern English has many words from Celtic languages.
The "Celts" were not the indigenous population of Britain.
Regards
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Whiskey,
This is the sort of thing that tickles the British fancy, and makes them wax reminiscent about the benefits of British civilization which was spread across the globe by the Empire.
But if you pinned these former British subjects down on the matter, they would probably tell you that they are glad the British are gone, and probably don't want you to come back.
Regards, Shuckins
I think most people in Britain have a realistic grasp on the less savoury aspects of it's empire. I guess we just get a little miffed at Hollywood's interpretation. Jeez- even the bad guys in Disney all have English accents:D
You're dead right, they wouldn't want us back because then they'd all have bad teeth and be forced to watch soccer :D
Regards
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Originally posted by Shuckins
As far as it goes, a close study of the history of the English and the Scots would reveal that the English carried out far more invasions of Scotland than the Scots did of England.
Well done Sherlock.
Of Course they did! the British were far stronger and powerful so they could successfully invade, weather in retaliation or for other purposes.
Saying Scotland was innocent is like saying Al qaeda is innocent and the US and British armies are big bad ogres because the extremists are much smaller in number.
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Laurie, judging by your spelling and punctuation above, I'm assuming that you weren't educated at either Eton (no "a") or Harrow. ;) Neither were my two eldest kids, but funnily enough they both studied some American Indian history in their GCSE History curriculum.
Regards.
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Might makes right?
Comparing the Scots to Al Qaeda and calling them extremists isn't helping your cause.
No one claimed the Scots were blameless, but they seldom produced characters as unsavory as the Duke of Cumberland. The nickname given to him of "Butcher" Cumberland after the Battle of Culloden was well deserved.
The repression of the Scots and their clans after that battle was extreme, and constituted an attack on the very culture of the Scots themselves.
Shall I produce more examples of British benevolence? Don't even get me started on Britain's part in starting the infamous and odorous Opium War with China. The massacre of the Zulus is another bright spot in English history.
If the hands of American settlers and their government are covered in the blood of native Americans, then the British are covered in it up to their necks.
My apologies to any British posters here, like Whiskey, who care to argue their points with respect for those holding opposing viewpoints.
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Laurie, judging by your spelling and punctuation above, I'm assuming that you weren't educated at either Eton (no "a") or Harrow. ;) Neither were my two eldest kids, but funnily enough they both studied some American Indian history in their GCSE History curriculum.
Regards.
If you do not wish to believe where i am taught, that is up to you, Harrow is about producing gentlemen rather than Academics.
Yes we are doing some work about The American War of Independence and The United States early history, but not that of the 'indigenous' or Original inhabitants.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Might makes right?
Comparing the Scots to Al Qaeda and calling them extremists isn't helping your cause.
No one claimed the Scots were blameless, but they seldom produced characters as unsavory as the Duke of Cumberland. The nickname given to him of "Butcher" Cumberland after the Battle of Culloden was well deserved.
The repression of the Scots and their clans after that battle was extreme, and constituted an attack on the very culture of the Scots themselves.
Shall I produce more examples of British benevolence? Don't even get me started on Britain's part in starting the infamous and odorous Opium War with China. The massacre of the Zulus is another bright spot in English history.
If the hands of American settlers and their government are covered in the blood of native Americans, then the British are covered in it up to their necks.
My apologies to any British posters here, like Whiskey, who care to argue their points with respect for those holding opposing viewpoints.
'Might makes right?'
I never claimed the British to be right, i just disputed the way, like many Americans, you tried to make any enemy of the British realm and monarchy look so innocent and the British to be totally wrong.
I never called them extremists i was simply making a modern day comparison. But it is well known that the Scots adopted a sort of 'gorilla warfare' style tactic or skirmish style fighting against the English rather than open confrontations, much like how the rebels fought in America later on against the British.
I think the battle between the Zulu tribe and the relatively minut British forces trying to build a bridge is one of THE greatest episodes of British military history. Those men fought off thousands of barbaric tribes men,
Shall i bother to tell you how many VC's were given out for that conflict? or will you just heckle that award also?
You should be very careful about what you say and think of the British military and it's heritage, For this is the heritage that has developed the army into what it is today, the sole military force that is meaningfully supporting yours is it not? it has produced the men that are fighting side by side with yours has it not?
And lets face it, If you want to pull out cheap shots and 'low blows' Vietnam was the most diabolical military **** up in modern history. I do not have numbers in my head and they are probably not available to the public in an honest form, but i wouldn't mind betting that the U.S. army has the highest friendly fire rate in the western world.
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Shut this thread down, it's gone from Immigrations- rants about 17th Century tactics used by the Scots, Every Scotsman knows that the first team to beat Engerlaaaand after they won the World Cup was Scotland.
That's all that matters in terms of the Scots, unless you want to include Maradonas goal aganst them (Engerlaaand)in 1986.
Laurie- Away wi yee!
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Seeing as once again there is a lack to challenge and discuss the most important political minefield, i shall let you consider with this fact;
43% of Muslims living in England want to impose 'sharia law' which is basically the law of the quran; this would entail the stoning of raped women,
Now please watch this video it is a BBC news report; and tell me why these bastards deserve citizenship in our country if the feel any ounce of sympathy for terrorists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6280000/newsid_6285600/6285620.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=2
I would take great Joy in tearing down that mosque, i would feel no remorse in burning those men who seem to absurdly sympathise with Al Qaeda and their bidders, and i would pay for their wives and offspring to be permanently exiled seeing 'we are such a terrible western government' shame they don't have the same attitude when it comes to the welfare state. O not so bad for them then are we , or when it comes to free council house, or another form of bogus benefit to these traitorous bastards.
Call it fascism, call it what you like for you are wrong the Muslims in this video are WRONG; i have no care on this particular topic for some liberal activist view.
yup multiculturalism works doesn't it ...
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I hate the pc brigade.I distrust all politicians.I believe in live and let live,and hate injustice.
By the way,Anyone born in the United States is "NATIVE",the red Indian tribes are "INDIGENOUS". :aok
That's all hunky dory hazzer, shame Islam does not follow you on the live and let live idea. Whilst i agree with you on the subject of 'injustice' you must first have to have a common definition of what actually is just. something which we have clearly not achieved yet.
natural to a country or region, native.
http://www.anbg.gov.au/glossary/webpubl/lichglos.htm
native to a particular area.
http://www.riparianbuffers.umd.edu/dictionary.html
By the way these are 2 of the 5 web defintions i got for 'indigenous' ' hazzer':aok
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Buzz off, i'm not ready to shut this thread down, im just starting to get my teeth into it, nothing like a good old debate is there chaps?
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You are really an example of what Harrow puts out as students these days?
Really?
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Originally posted by Toad
You are really an example of what Harrow puts out as students these days?
Really?
Yes, Anthony Love is my real name.
We don't have student lists available to the public as far as i know but when i get home I'll try and dig up some' proof' if you really want it, I'm still at school, don't have much here in my dormitory right now.
You appear think i have a bizarre mindset because i totally disagree with 43% of a bunch of guests in our country that want to impose their barbaric laws upon us.
please watch the clip i gave a link to, and then come back to me.
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Toad - if you have a rich Daddy, you can get into Harrow. I don't think academic performance has much to do with it.
Still it is jolly reassuring to see the 'institution' producing stalwart defenders of Victorian attitudes! What, what!
British muslims are not 'guests', by the way. I know that is BNP dogma, but do try to see through the spiel, old bean.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Toad - if you have a rich Daddy, you can get into Harrow. I don't think academic performance has much to do with it.
Still it is jolly reassuring to see the 'institution' producing stalwart defenders of Victorian attitudes! What, what!
British Muslims are not 'guests', by the way. I know that is BNP dogma, but do try to see through the spiel, old bean.
Sorry, surely a person allowed to stay here for an indefinite period or arrive here after birth is a guest, no?
Any man women or child that supports or even syympathises with the terroists does not deserve to be a country men of mine or yours and does not deserve citezenship.-----Would you agree with this statement?
98% in Maths KS2 not enough academic performance for you sir?
I'll say it again, be a sport and watch the clip, then come back to me.
Funny how none of you have commented on it, the truth a bit too on much on the nose for you, or have you really still not watched it.
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Originally posted by Laurie
Sorry, surely a person allowed to stay here for an indefinite period or arrive here after birth is a guest, no?
No. Your argument is simplistic and incorrect, since many "British Muslims" in this country are already British citizens by naturalisation or birth. Only the remainder are "guests."
Any man women or child that supports or even syympathises with the terroists does not deserve to be a country men of mine or yours and does not deserve citezenship.-----Would you agree with this statement?
There is a clear distinction between expressing an opinion in a democratic society and aiding and abetting an enemy of the state. Contrary to what you may believe, the former is not usually a crime. It may be censured, but should not be prohibited or punishable.
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Originally posted by AKH
There is a clear distinction between expressing an opinion in a democratic society and aiding and abetting an enemy of the state. Contrary to what you may believe, the former is not usually a crime. It may be censured, but should not be prohibited or punishable.
So you think they can discredit the government that is giving them shelter, support Jihad and the innocent deaths of westerners, and still deserve taxpayers money on their benefits?
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98% in Maths KS2 not enough academic performance for you sir?
Congratulations. I hear GCSE is very taxing these days, and I wish you well. However, my point is that money (in addition to the £24,000 per year admission fees) can buy you a place at Harrow, outside a minority of scholarship pupils.
On the other hand, a lad could attend a lowly Comprehensive school and walk away with straight A's at GCSE and 5 As at A-Level including Further Maths. Parents might have to stump up a quid a day for the bus fare... but I guess sacrifices have to be made.
So you think they can discredit the government that is giving them shelter, support Jihad and the innocent deaths of westerners, and still deserve taxpayers money on their benefits?
A straw man blowing in the wind if ever I saw one. Of the Muslim population of Britain, how many fit your stereotype? 2%, 25%, 75%? You don't know, of course. Your data is one poll with a sample of how many? A thousand? What was the demographic spread? Middle class, working class, Finsbury Mosque goers?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Congratulations. I hear GCSE is very taxing these days, and I wish you well. However, my point is that money (in addition to the £24,000 per year admission fees) can buy you a place at Harrow, outside a minority of scholarship pupils.
On the other hand, a lad could attend a lowly Comprehensive school and walk away with straight A's at GCSE and 5 As at A-Level including Further Maths. Parents might have to stump up a quid a day for the bus fare... but I guess sacrifices have to be made.
A straw man blowing in the wind if ever I saw one. Of the Muslim population of Britain, how many fit your stereotype? 2%, 25%, 75%? You don't know, of course. Your data is one poll with a sample of how many? A thousand? What was the demographic spread? Middle class, working class, Finsbury Mosque goers?
Give me a JCB and i'll give Finsbury park mosque and thier long john silver wanna be with his hook over there a lesson or two on common courtesy's in britian.
43% of muslims admitted to their Imam's that they wanted to introduce Shiah law in britian, thtas how much.
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Originally posted by Dowding
On the other hand, a lad could attend a lowly Comprehensive school and walk away with straight A's at GCSE and 5 As at A-Level including Further Maths. Parents might have to stump up a quid a day for the bus fare... but I guess sacrifices have to be made.
A
You seem to think straight A's is top notch, meet mister A*, thta is what is expected is of us, B grades are seen as failure. You know in some exams the level of an A is 65%?
You seem to feel 98% at KS2 in maths is not enough?
80% is hard enough to find amongst the state sector pupils.
Although i must admit, I'd lose out to them in the Tracksuit and trainers general knowledge exam or how to make a 3 star resort that of 2 stars. they've made those ones by now surely? I'm sure they'll be some ridiculous legislation or civil liberty somewhere dictating that it's an injustice not to have it somewhere. At least they'll get some half decent marks
Have you been to a state school recently and seen what type of places these have become due a mix of cultures and multi cultural collision?
Notice one thing, the majority , especially in London of state school children are of ethnic minority, and notice another thing, the flowers on the lamppost down the road due to another knife crime death, this is why 'daddy' forks out.
Your dumb bellybutton approach and typical lower class view of generalization at the upper-class schools makes clear why you are not here with us. In 2003 Eton came top of the school league tables in GCSE, can't be all that dumb or accepted simply on a financial basis can we? My brother having taken his GCSE's that very year at Eton.
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Well, if you are representative of Harrow's product, you're getting A's in their classes and you really believe what you post here, all I can say is "My, my.... poor Harrow. It had such a great reputation."
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, if you are representative of Harrow's product, you're getting A's in their classes and you really believe what you post here, all I can say is "My, my.... poor Harrow. It had such a great reputation."
Shame you don't take that attitude towards me and the reputation of harrow;
on the the terroists and the reputation of islam, you sir have now contradicted your own fundamental arguement.
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From this thread, sir, I suggest the shame is upon both you and Harrow.
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Originally posted by Toad
From this thread, sir, I suggest the shame is upon both you and Harrow.
Touche Toad, thus from 9/11 , I suggest the shame is upon both Bin Laden and islam.
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Originally posted by Laurie
You seem to think straight A's is top notch, meet mister A*, thta is what is expected is of us, B grades are seen as failure. You know in some exams the level of an A is 65%?
You seem to feel 98% at KS2 in maths is not enough?
80% is hard enough to find amongst the state sector pupils.
Although i must admit, I'd lose out to them in the Tracksuit and trainers general knowledge exam or how to make a 3 star resort that of 2 stars. they've made those ones by now surely? I'm sure they'll be some ridiculous legislation or civil liberty somewhere dictating that it's an injustice not to have it somewhere. At least they'll get some half decent marks
Have you been to a state school recently and seen what type of places these have become due a mix of cultures and multi cultural collision?
Notice one thing, the majority , especially in London of state school children are of ethnic minority, and notice another thing, the flowers on the lamppost down the road due to another knife crime death, this is why 'daddy' forks out.
Your dumb bellybutton approach and typical lower class view of generalization at the upper-class schools makes clear why you are not here with us. In 2003 Eton came top of the school league tables in GCSE, can't be all that dumb or accepted simply on a financial basis can we? My brother having taken his GCSE's that very year at Eton.
Laurie, acting like an angry, intolerant and bigoted public schoolboy is no way to go through life.
Hopefully when you get the chance to travel & work amongst people from all sorts of backgrounds, races and religions and have expanded your education (although your KS2 maths result is commendable) you will gain a more balanced, objective and reasonable attitude towards a source of conflict that has been going on for 800 years or so.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Laurie, acting like an angry, intolerant and bigoted public schoolboy is no way to go through life.
Hopefully when you get the chance to travel & work amongst people from all sorts of backgrounds, races and religions and have expanded your education (although your KS2 maths result is commendable) you will gain a more balanced, objective and reasonable attitude towards a source of conflict that has been going on for 800 years or so.
Regards.
At least you talk with some respect rather than focus all your rounds at one piont.