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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: NOT on June 14, 2007, 07:40:58 AM

Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: NOT on June 14, 2007, 07:40:58 AM: OR UNPERK THE TIGER.

NOT
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: AAolds on June 14, 2007, 09:01:43 AM: I think this qualifies for the wishlist. Otherwise, I totally agree.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Masherbrum on June 14, 2007, 09:11:22 AM: SPAWNCAMPERS UNITE!!!!11!!!!zOMFG!!111!!
Title: Re: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: 68Ripper on June 14, 2007, 11:42:29 AM: Quote
Originally posted by NOT
OR UNPERK THE TIGER.

NOT

Agreed, the Tiger has been softened up so much they have become easy kills for any of the other tank types. A panzer can one shot kill a Tiger even from a distance.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: kennyhayes on June 14, 2007, 12:15:13 PM: i agree
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Virage on June 14, 2007, 12:42:19 PM: The firefly has the best gun in the game and the second best armor.

Perk it.

About that armor... was it really that effective vs. the PzrIV 75mm?
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Krusty on June 14, 2007, 12:56:29 PM: Tigrs are still able to take multiple 1k bombs with near misses (1 foot from the treads) and keep on truckin'... Does the sherman do that? Last I heard the Firefly was most vulnerable to any bombs as long as they're within a football field of it.

Perhaps you shouldn't be calling for an unperked tiger. Perhaps you should be calling for a light perk on the Firefly? (Say, 5 points?)
Title: Firefly
Post by: Stampf on June 14, 2007, 01:10:11 PM: The tank war has lost all appeal to me. Opposing forces facing off in FF's from opposite Mountain ranges...I posted this on the Vehicle board but will paste here as well. You're not going to get a big supportive outcry here because the majority of the population is enjoying this totally non historical "Day of the Sherman". Not that the FF wasn't a great improvisation, but,...well...see below:

Firefly - Great Gun on a sound proven chasis. Good work by the Brits in adapting to the horrific losses incured by the big German guns. Was an effective Tiger Destroyer in WWII.

Problem with Firefly in AcesHigh - Its almost comparable to the issues people have with the LA7. Great WWII weapon...BUT...it, like the LA7 was never the "Backbone" of it's respective countires forces,...YET...They are everywhere on the AH2 battlefield. Also I believe the range of gun and hardness of armor need to be looked at critically by HTC.

Possible solutions:

Perk the FF, preferably after introducing the standard US M4 Sherman battle tank. Let's face it. For all it's shortcomings, the M4 is a popular tank.

or

Unperk the Tiger. Probably not a good idea.

Best possible solution (IMHO):

Introduce the perk free PanzerMK5. The "Panther". The Panther...WAS, (after Introduction) the main battle tank of German armoured forces, and it is absent from the battle field. Result: Tiger sits in the Hanger and the AH world is running amok with...A very unigue and effective version of a Tank produced in small numbers compared to its in game and absent from game contemporaries.

I'm still upping Tigers, but it is increasingly frustrating, when bouncing rounds from an 88, off of an M4's turrent or upper plates at range.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaldEagl on June 14, 2007, 01:13:36 PM: The Tiger still has it's advantages. It is still, as Krusty pointed out, the best thing to be sitting in with Jabo's overhead but it's toughness has been severely compromised by the Firefly.

I think the perk on the Tiger needs to be dramatically reduced while the Firefly needs a light perk applied. Both. Maybe half the perk price of the Tiger then make the Firefly perked at half that.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Krusty on June 14, 2007, 01:14:29 PM: TIGR is already at half what it originally was. It's still a major threat to strat and fields, and I think because of that it should retain a decent sized perk.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 14, 2007, 01:22:12 PM: Introduce a standard Sherman for free, then give the FF a slight perk, maybe 10.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: FrodeMk3 on June 14, 2007, 01:35:23 PM: From what I've read, Very few German anti-tank guns had trouble with a Sherman's armor. The 88, especially, was said to go through a Sherman lengthwise, at any angle. I would figure that a FF struck by a Tiger's Main gun would be a dead FF, but this has not been the case. To more realistically reflect this, the FF's armor should be un-nerfed.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: soda72 on June 14, 2007, 01:39:08 PM: perk
-------------------------------------------------
ostwind 05
panzer 05
Sherman FF 10
Tiger 50

m3 0
m16 0
m8 0
jeep 0
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Castedo on June 14, 2007, 01:53:09 PM: Quote
Originally posted by soda72

perk
-------------------------------------------------
ostwind 05
panzer 05
Sherman FF 10
Tiger 50

m3 0
m16 0
m8 0
jeep 0

[/B]

T34 =??
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Krusty on June 14, 2007, 01:57:40 PM: oh what the hell, leave it unperked!
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: soda72 on June 14, 2007, 01:58:02 PM: perk
-------------------------------------------------
ostwind 05
panzer 05
t34 05
Sherman FF 10
Tiger 50

m3 0
m16 0
m8 0
jeep 0
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 14, 2007, 02:00:29 PM: Perking the Panzer & T34? Is there any reason for it?
That's as if you would perk every fighter in the game, leaving noobs only to fly buffs and goons. Or in this case, M8's. Defenitely no fun.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaldEagl on June 14, 2007, 02:02:04 PM: More like:

perk
-------------------------------------------------
ostwind 0
panzer 0
t34 0
Sherman FF 10
Tiger 25

m3 0
m16 0
m8 0
jeep 0
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Castedo on June 14, 2007, 02:08:34 PM: Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
More like:

perk
-------------------------------------------------
ostwind 0
panzer 0
t34 0
T34-85 5
Panther 10
Sherman FF 10
Tiger 10
King Tiger 20

m3 0
m16 0
m8 0
jeep 0

Just an idea!
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 14, 2007, 02:11:05 PM: Some current tour data:

Panzer kills of Sherman 2801
Sherman kills of Panzer 5119
0.55 K/D

Panzer kills of T34 425
T34 kills of Panzer 252
1.67 K/D

Panzer kills of Tiger 261
Tiger kills of Panzer 1385
0.19 K/D

Sherman kills of Tiger 548
Tiger kills of Sherman 1101
0.49 K/D

Sherman kills of T34 706
Sherman kills of T34 174
4.06 K/D

T34 kills of Tiger 25
Tiger kills of T34 280
0.09 K/D

Note that K/D Tiger vs Firefly is almost the same as Firefly vs Panzer IV
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Stampf on June 14, 2007, 02:13:38 PM: all which says...

"Houston, we have a problem"...
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Stampf on June 14, 2007, 02:22:14 PM: Remember, there was no "parity" between Axis and Allied armored forces. I'm not talking about the men who served, just the machines they served in. As I said above, the problem is not the FF. It's the overwhelming pressence of them on the battlefield.

Axis Armoured Divisions were destoyed from the air. Although the Red Army did better, in combining armoured tactics, with overwhelming numbers, coupled with their airpower, then the western powers did. "Shermans were rolling coffins" on the western front and no match for even a regular field upgraded PanzerIV.

Seeing a Panzer on the field now is like spotting low lancs...

Mine, Mine, Mine ???
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaldEagl on June 14, 2007, 02:57:11 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Some current tour data:

Panzer kills of Sherman 2801
Sherman kills of Panzer 5119
0.55 K/D

Panzer kills of T34 425
T34 kills of Panzer 252
1.67 K/D

Panzer kills of Tiger 261
Tiger kills of Panzer 1385
0.19 K/D

Sherman kills of Tiger 548
Tiger kills of Sherman 1101
0.49 K/D

Sherman kills of T34 706
Sherman kills of T34 174
4.06 K/D

T34 kills of Tiger 25
Tiger kills of T34 280
0.09 K/D

Note that K/D Tiger vs Firefly is almost the same as Firefly vs Panzer IV

Which says to me, as I've already stated without looking at the numbers, that the Sherman should be half the perk price of a Tiger.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: tedrbr on June 14, 2007, 03:12:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Virage
The firefly has the best gun in the game and the second best armor.

Perk it.

About that armor... was it really that effective vs. the PzrIV 75mm?

Sherman/Firefly Armor.... would it be that effective against the AP rounds from an IL-2? Usually I find my self tracking them, stripping off the coax, then killing M3's and jeeps that try to get veh sups to them.

Ah, heck, leave the FF.... give us the Gun option for the Stuka JU-87G (refitted Ju 87D) Kanonenvogel with 2×37 mm BK 37 X 6 rpg. All Your Fireflies Are Belong To Us!
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Krusty on June 14, 2007, 03:13:35 PM: Ted, I think they had 12 rpg (very early ones had 6 then it was doubled)

Bring on the -87G!!!
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 14, 2007, 03:14:55 PM: Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
Sherman/Firefly Armor.... would it be that effective against the AP rounds from an IL-2? Usually I find my self tracking them, stripping off the coax, then killing M3's and jeeps that try to get veh sups to them.

Ah, heck, leave the FF.... give us the Gun option for the Stuka JU-87G (refitted Ju 87D) Kanonenvogel with 2×37 mm BK 37 X 6 rpg. All Your Fireflies Are Belong To Us!

Il2 can shred FF. Steep angle, aim for rear deck immediately behind turret. Took me an afternoon of practice, but now it's almost as easy as killing Panzer IV's.

And 'till we get the 87G... we already have a tankbuster with an even bigger gun ;)
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Wolfala on June 14, 2007, 03:15:05 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Tigrs are still able to take multiple 1k bombs with near misses (1 foot from the treads) and keep on truckin'... Does the sherman do that? Last I heard the Firefly was most vulnerable to any bombs as long as they're within a football field of it.

Perhaps you shouldn't be calling for an unperked tiger. Perhaps you should be calling for a light perk on the Firefly? (Say, 5 points?)

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1012_1159951701_jdamwannabeunmodified.jpg)

Didn't help this guy any. Rolled in with an A-20 and dropped all 8 with a CEP of about 3 meters. 2 on his upper deck alone.

Wolf
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 14, 2007, 03:18:37 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala

Didn't help this guy any. Rolled in with an A-20 and dropped all 8 with a CEP of about 3 meters. 2 on his upper deck alone.

Wolf

But many people just can't aim well enough. When a port is under sudden attack by many cons and the Vh is about to be dropped, I always roll a Tiger for defense, not an Ostwind. Usually I survive for a loooong time, often I can even foil squad sized capture attempts. Just don't sit still with a Tiger!
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: humble on June 14, 2007, 03:26:18 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Stampf
Remember, there was no "parity" between Axis and Allied armored forces. I'm not talking about the men who served, just the machines they served in. As I said above, the problem is not the FF. It's the overwhelming pressence of them on the battlefield.

Axis Armoured Divisions were destoyed from the air. Although the Red Army did better, in combining armoured tactics, with overwhelming numbers, coupled with their airpower, then the western powers did. "Shermans were rolling coffins" on the western front and no match for even a regular field upgraded PanzerIV.

Seeing a Panzer on the field now is like spotting low lancs...

Mine, Mine, Mine ???

This is not entirely correct. The "stock" sherman was at a significant disadvantage vs any of the german armor since its main gun was so inferior. since the M4 was deployed in an offensive role it had to close against superior weaponry deployed in a defensive posture on known terrain....so it absorbed tremendous losses just getting in range. There are however numerous engagements where the sherman did well in pure "tank on tank" combat. In one the german lost 54 Panthers & tigers to 17 shermans.

The M4 armor was actually superior to the PZ!VH by a decent margin...

The "Easy 8" with the 76mm main gun will be a better indicator...and will allow for the FF to be perked.....as it should be. But the Easy 8 will kill tigers better then the PZIV and it will have a significant edge vs the PZIV....as it should.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: soda72 on June 14, 2007, 03:32:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Perking the Panzer & T34? Is there any reason for it?
That's as if you would perk every fighter in the game, leaving noobs only to fly buffs and goons. Or in this case, M8's. Defenitely no fun.

I'd also go for reseting a players perks to zero every three hours the player is on-line. Now that would make things interesting... :)
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Stampf on June 14, 2007, 03:43:21 PM: Quote
This is not entirely correct. The "stock" sherman was at a significant disadvantage vs any of the german armor since its main gun was so inferior. since the M4 was deployed in an offensive role it had to close against superior weaponry deployed in a defensive posture on known terrain....so it absorbed tremendous losses just getting in range. There are however numerous engagements where the sherman did well in pure "tank on tank" combat. In one the german lost 54 Panthers & tigers to 17 shermans.

Agreed. And of course there were good showings by the western allied tank forces. And I was speaking of standard M4 Shermans of course as well. I think the FF is a great addition, just not how it's being overused to the exclusion of other fun vehicles. Just trying to look for an easy fix, short of development time involved in new vehicles.

Also agreed about the terrain. the Germans exceled in the defensive role and the western front terrain could not have been better suited for this role. The wide open expanses of the eastern battlefields proved that numbers and tactics could defeat these defensive skills, and superior tanks. .
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: P47Gra on June 14, 2007, 03:57:10 PM: I just like to kill things. If I got nothing to up a FF then I would still do so. Points blah! Maybe because I am a Noob at AH, I love to fly or roll to kill someone. Sorry guys I dont get it.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Wolfala on June 14, 2007, 04:01:27 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
But many people just can't aim well enough. When a port is under sudden attack by many cons and the Vh is about to be dropped, I always roll a Tiger for defense, not an Ostwind. Usually I survive for a loooong time, often I can even foil squad sized capture attempts. Just don't sit still with a Tiger!

True enough, and the only reason i'm using 4K is because kills don't register on the Tiger. Normal for me, is 1 bomb, 1 plink - doesnt matter if its a Flak, M3, M16, Panzer, T34 or Firefly. But with the Tiger, you need to be excessive - even though 250 lbs of HE is more then adequate to splinter metal IRL.

Wolf
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: crockett on June 14, 2007, 04:17:28 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Introduce a standard Sherman for free, then give the FF a slight perk, maybe 10.

I agree.. I'd also say the Tiger should zoom a bit better as well. If I'm in a FF and I know a Tiger is out there, I generally don't worry too much. Only time a Tiger is a real threat to a FF IMO is in a head to head battle with little cover. Like what happens on Small Pizza map where it's a head to head fight in the canyons.

I think a cost of maybe a 5 perks with a ENY of 10 (not 5) would be good enough on the FF as long as there were normal Sherman's added to the game. If no normal Sherman's are added then I'd be against perking the FF.

Personally I'm kinda fond of the M-8 but with the terrain updates it's a tough job to use a M-8 now days. There are just not enough trees to hide in anymore.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaldEagl on June 14, 2007, 04:41:33 PM: I can kill a Tiger w/2000 lb of ord. Nothing less but 2000 does it almost every time. 1000 on anything else and it's poof (including the Fireflys).

That's using the trusty F6F-5. Less might do but I only carry 1000 lbers.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Solar10 on June 14, 2007, 05:45:09 PM: 2 500lbers from a mossie will pop a tiger, but they have to hit it direct.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: wipass on June 15, 2007, 05:05:32 AM: This is a Sherman at the Overloon museum in Holland. I have visited the museum a few times.

This particular tank was hit on the side turret/mantlet by an 88, it was further hit twice on the side by an 88 with both rounds going through both sides.

If you hit a Sherman with an 88 anywhere it should be destroyed.

Regards

wipass

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/sjoerd1977/IMG_0007.jpg
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on June 15, 2007, 06:59:47 AM: Holy hell, can you all wait till we get a new plane or tank before ya'll start jumpin' on the FF's case?

At least wait till the next version.

Who knows, HTC could drop three tanks on your arses and you would all be stuck on stupid.
perk the uuuuh..uhm..the..perk..the..u hm...armor..uh..gun....perk everything with treads armor and a main gun!!

Honestly do NOT see the FF as any major threat, shut your engine down,hide and wait for the sob to go by.
Even a m8 can take one out "sure it wont be at 1.5k" but play like a moron, die like one.

Most tanks in ww2 most of the time hid themselfs, they did not go charging around fireing round after round after round, then wounder why their target killed them."well most of them didnt, the dead ones did"

Ask any tanker in the know, you hide..shut engines off..drop to N aim,fire..wait..wait..wait..wait..wait..aim..fire. rinse and repeat.
If you fire that main gun every time you hear it reload, count your seconds.
you wont be around much longer.

Cannot tell you how many time i have found a enemy tank by listening to engines, machinegun fire..and the sight of a huge tracer come from a tree line.
HTC gods gave you a x button for zoom for a reason.

Zoom in, if the enemy's main gun is facing YOU "and your NOT directly in front of him" he SEE's you.
RUn b17ch run!

Re position, aim..fire..wait..wait..wait.. wait..fire.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaa aaaaaah

:D

"Duck's out off stage, cant wait to see all the 'butt hurt' with this one,wee!"
Perk the SBD! its too good of a high alt fighter.
:aok
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Larry on June 15, 2007, 07:15:23 AM: Sherman VC should be perked about 5 since it can take a tigers turret out and kill it with one shot from 2k.

One night a horde came into a Vbase. I uped a tiger knowing that they would be bringing tanks in. I got up on a hill overlooking the spawn. A M4 poped up I took a shot and missed, he took a shot and pop goes my turret. I run back to base and zoom down the hill trying to out run the M3s that were racing in. I got one set but the other 2 sets made it.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Grits on June 15, 2007, 07:43:40 AM: Cool, until this thread I was not even aware there were tanks in this flight sim.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Larry on June 15, 2007, 09:15:54 AM: Cool, until ths thread I was not even aware this "WWII combat Sim" was a flight sim.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: crockett on June 15, 2007, 01:47:31 PM: BaDkaRmA158Th I agree the M4 can be taken out by a M-8 I've done it quite a few times myself. However a Panzer is so much easier to kill in a M-8 than a Sherman is. I just wonder if the armor on a FF was better than the armor on a Panzer in real life. (I dunno much about the tanks in real life, but I don't think it was)

When I'm in a M-8 I'm almost confident enough to take on a Panzer from the front. I can normally take out it's turret in 2 shots from the M-8 three if I'm having a bad day. Then I can normally finish off the tank in 4 or 5 shots.

When I'm up aginst a Sherman I have to be much more carful in planning my attack with the M-8. It tends to take twice the amount of hits to kill the turret before it goes. ( around 4 or 5 hits to kill the turrent then around 8 shots to kill the tank.

lol Tigers on the other hand.. If I'm in a M-8 I run for my little life. I've never even managed to track a tiger much less kill it's turret in a M-8.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Grits on June 15, 2007, 01:56:59 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Larry
Cool, until ths thread I was not even aware this "WWII combat Sim" was a flight sim.

Now you know its a flight sim with sideshow Tonka Toys. Glad I could help. :)
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: humble on June 15, 2007, 02:08:19 PM: Armor is a combination of a variety of factors...

1) overall thickness
2) angle of slope
3) the quality and hardness of the metal

Obviously the thicker the armor the better...but slope and the hardness and "grain alignment" also played a big a big part. The sherman was a mixed bag with varying thickness/slope and both cast and welded hull produced at different places so having different "specs". From what I've read the "stock" M4 had superior armor (overall) to the PZIVH (whcih had very little slope if any most places). All in all the M4 was considered a better tank then the PZIV but grossly inferior to the Panther & Tiger. The FF was originally conceived for the "overwatch" role and allocated 1 per tank platoon. It would cover the advance of the other 3 tanks. IRL it was so effective that the germans were ordered to engage the FF at any range 1st....just like AH it would kill a Tiger or Panther at long range (I dont think it had anywhere near the survivablity it shows in AH however).

The two biggest factors in the ETO were the vastly superior US recovery capabilities and the 2 US "heavy" armored divisions. This created a battle of attrition the germans just couldnt win (at the cost of high US casualties).

US (and german) doctrine was really based on artillery. The germans never lost a single battle until they had lost there artillery coverage. The role of the tank was primarily to break thru fixed defensive positions and eliminate supply and artillery formations allowing the infantry to close and defeat the bulk of the enemy army. So we have an unrealistic view of "tank war"...if we ever got fixed artillery it would change everything...
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Castedo on June 15, 2007, 04:53:50 PM: Tank war was never about armour or gun, was about mobility and tatics. This cannot be done at AH. As a whole war is about playing your cards right, chain of command, different arms, air ground sea. You cannot do it at AH, you would need a president, a general and cannon foder.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on June 15, 2007, 06:05:34 PM: It can be done :)

Just not by a few mindless tanks trying to defend a location against tanks that can pop them in 1 hit. With all armor, aim & timing and stealth is key.

Anyone driving top gear, tryin' to take pot shots at a enemy "who now knows exactly where they are because of the incoming round" is total stupidity.
Remember, the FF would stay put,as the sharmans rushed the target.
Well we dont have shermans, but like stated before, i would use my m4 buddys as bait as i rushed in and poped them from behind.
Use your brains and skill to evade if need be, dont take anything head on that has a gun bigger than the m8's otherwise you will end up taking hits, and no armor is god like.

Altho you can always do what i do, find a tank buddy and use him as a meat shield :)Will save you from at least one FF hit,lol.

Ehy,it isnt nice..but if it works..ill assign a Lt. abouttodie if it saves me from being hit. The ground war is your war, play it like a fool and rush in,you can only survive untill that next round takes you out.
Also IF you do have incoming rounds, you Do have time to try and turn your tank to evade the round.
Time them, and you can close to stupid ranges quickly even in a m8,all while your enemy slings shell after shell to your left and right sides.
It works, with skill and good timing.

That is all.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: humble on June 15, 2007, 06:35:23 PM: If you imagined a battery of shore guns (lets say 16) with preranged coordinates and an observer that could range from your "spawn" all the way in to your target base that would approximate the realities. would they fire on single targets....normally not. But IRL no armor (or infantry) was safe as long as the enemy artillary was active. Artillary was much more effective then airpower and by far the biggest single cause of casualties on all sides. In fact a real good approximation would be to view the shore batteries as pillboxes and create some overlooking town/bridge approaches from various spawns...and or overlooking some spawns for protection. Try camping a few times with an 8 in gun looking down on you:)
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Softail on June 17, 2007, 08:06:22 PM: Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I just wonder if the armor on a FF was better than the armor on a Panzer in real life. (I dunno much about the tanks in real life, but I don't think it was)

The M4's armour thickness was: Front: Turret 76mm, 51mm hull. Side armor: 51mm (turret) 38mm hull. Rear 51mm Turret, 38 hull. Top: 25mm turret, 13-25mm hull.

The Sherman (51mm) side armor was sufficient to save the crew from small arms fire and light artillery, but left the Sherman terribly vulnerable to the high velocity 75mm and 88mm guns carried by the German Mark IV, Panther and Tiger tanks.

The Panzer IV armour: Front: 50mm Hull + sloping, 50mm Turret. Sides: 50mm turret and hull, Rear: 30mm.

The Tiger I has armour thickness of: Front: 120 Turret, 100mm on hull and superstructure). Sides: 80mm onturret and superstructure, 60mm hull. Rear: 80mm turret and hull. 26mm on the turret top.

I don't mind so much the 17 pounder gun taking out Panzers and Tigers tanks at up 3K+ on front armour! What I take exception at is the incredible number of ricochets the M4 now garners from both Panzer and Tiger! When they were first put into the game, one ping on an M4 from either a Tiger or Panzer and poof it was gone. Now, I have recorded up to 8 ricochets off of a panzer at less than 2K distance!!

Softail
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Lusche on June 17, 2007, 08:45:20 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Softail

The Panzer IV armour: Front: 50mm Hull + sloping, 50mm Turret. Sides: 50mm turret and hull, Rear: 30mm
Softail

We have the Panzer IV Ausf.H which has 80mm armor at front hull.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Larry on June 17, 2007, 09:19:54 PM: Click Here (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203114&highlight=Tiger) for AHs tank armor info.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Hoffman on June 18, 2007, 01:06:28 AM: Yeah but has anyone actually ever seen a Sherman up close and personal?

They are humongous... huge... bigger 'n all out doors and usually with a giant star painted on the front like a Bull's Eye.

Hell the Sherman is probably bigger than the Abrams, and with what? An Inch and a half or so of steel armor on front? Its a beautiful target, seeing the Sherman at the Benning Inf. Museum, the Sherman they have at the Camp Mabry TNG Museum... Hell the Sherman makes an insanely wondrous target. Great for infantry to hide behind... bad for hiding the tank itself.

1 HE round from a Tiger should obliterate a Sherman for 3 reasons.

The 88's Gun velocity will pierce a Sherman's Armor with ease.

They didn't exactly have blast shielded ammo bays back in the 40's, shells were everywhere and a ricochet could easily set them off.

Shermans ran on Gasoline. Any hit with HE to the engine, fuel line, or fuel tanks and the sherman goes up in flames, soon after the ammo detonates.

Has anyone looked inside the turret of the Sherman ingame? There's ammo stacked up in the walls, in the turret... everywhere the thing is practically a lightly armored bomb waiting to explode.

Personally I think its effectiveness is overstated in the game.
The Firefly is a specialist model that was not used overmuch in real life, similar to the modified Stugs under Hans Von Luck's Command during GoodWood.
And yet it is seen almost as an MBT and deployed by the thousands.
Perking it would be a good idea, a comparable but not as severe perk as the Tiger would work. As it is it takes at least a half decent Tanker to get a Tiger and they're not invincible especially against a decent Tanker.

The only modification to the actual tank I would like to see is my 88 shells not bouncing off the front armor of the Sherman.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: Hades55 on June 18, 2007, 11:02:12 AM: Shermans armor ? now that was a joke :)

Cannon yes, but not armor. forget it.

Sherman was a wrong of armchair gens who the only battle field
they had see, was in films.
A wrong who had cost thousands and thousands deaths of
unsuspected crew soldiers who was dying like flies to kill
just one tiger.

This was a crime hidden inside the glory of the final victory.

I would execute @ 6 metres these fat tulips without second thought.

The first *real tank* of usarmy was the m25. But then the war had ended.
Title: Perk The Sherman!!!!!
Post by: humble on June 18, 2007, 07:29:26 PM: Actually the sherman armor was just fine for a 42 tank....just not for the tiger/panther. The sherman actually had excellent sloping on its front armor. It did have a high profile and there for easier to see and hit. Most tanks ran on gas....which had no effect on "flamibility" which was a function of ammo storage more then anything else. FF was not that uncommon (2,200+ total)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/M4A3E8.JPG)

This is an "easy 8", notice how well sloped the front armor is and how much of the turret front the rounded mantlet covers...also the "rounded" nature of the turret...that why you have the high richocet #'s...very similiar to the T-34 in alot of ways. Was it great tank, hardly....but its not a bad match up for the PZIV at all....