Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: tommygun on June 15, 2007, 05:12:27 PM
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What is the best U.S. fighter to use against the Spits and Zero's in a furball. They turn so well and I inevitably get lower and slower as I fight.
I want to fly a U.S. plane and am flying well enough now to get about one kill for every 1 and 1/2 deaths.
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Try flying the FM2, F4F-4, P40E, and F6F-5. Most of the other American planes are normally best at boom and zoom and very high altitude performance.
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The FM-2 is going to turn the tightest of all American planes. However, top speed at low alt is a horrible 302mph.
The best speed/turn comparison will probably lead you to use the F4U's. The turn fairly close to the FM-2 when the flaps are engaged. If you don't drop the flaps the f4u's dont turn so well.
Turn n burn isn't my cup of tea. BnZ is where its at!
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The FM-2 compared to the Spit 8, Hurr2c, Zero5 with flaps:
FM-2: 406
Spit 8: 448
Hurr2c: 402
Zero5: 342
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Try flying the FM2, F4F-4, P40E, and F6F-5. Most of the other American planes are normally best at boom and zoom and very high altitude performance.
LOL, fly the F4u-1 series. They PWN.
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i like the F6F in the furballs, but i try and stay away from those.
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PWN? What is that..sorry I'm new.
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P-40E Tommohawk is a good turner with flaps down.
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P38
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Definitely don't discount the capabilities of the F4U in a furball.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Definitely don't discount the capabilities of the F4U in a furball.
I don't discount corsairs, but they take more skill to do it right with making best use of the flaps and even dropping gear at the right moment. The F4U's can also be more unforgiving near stall speed.
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I find F4Us to be the greatest performing (and looking) US aircraft.
Everything else is either ugly as sin and/or a piece of crap. :lol
I've found the 1D to pretty stable at all speeds and a deceptively good turner.
The F4u-1 has a brutal low-speed stall that has towered me a few times, though.
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F4U-1,F4U-1D,F4U-1A they are t3h l337s :D
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p51d i outturn spits and jap planes 80% of time:aok
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I sort of rediscovered the 38G tonight... great plane to have down in the weeds in a furball. Get 'er light & she'll turn with most the opponents out there, nice and stable with a lot firepower in the nose.
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I will 2nd the P38G. Great plane slow with flaps out....lots of fire power in nose....and it is beautiful.:aok
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Fm2
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F4F, P38G, and F4u-1D.
The F4F is a robust bird for those whoom enjoy intense furballs while maintaining good Situational Awareness (due to limited rear visibility). Flaps in this bird add rather nicely to the planes deceptively tight turning radius and deploy at most speeds (dives excluded), just do not hope to out run anything.
The P38G is in my opinion an outstanding aircraft for down and dirty fighting. There is a lack of WEP (none to be exact) but with 50% internal fuel and the lighter ammo load speed should not be an issue. With the liberal use of flaps (these also deploy at most speeds) a decent stick can hang in turns farely well, also it should be noted that even without WEP the 38G can still dominate in the verticle, given the proper set up. Just watch your stall and compression.
The F4u-1D in my opinion is the pinacle of the NON PERKED F4Us, although there are those that will give that honor to the 1A variant. All in all the D-Hog has its large radial engine giving it some serious git up an' go with plenty of WEP to spare. The great thing about the D hog is there is only one main fuel tank so there is no need to manually burn the wing tanks down to increase roll rate and since the wing tanks are gone the wings are internally strenthened so they do not rip off in dives ( yes I know it sounds lame, but I have repeadedly de-winged my 1A-Hog pulling out at the bottom of an agressive dive). The D-Hog will also turn deceptively well, just make use of the gear (which acts as a dive brake) and the flaps. When used together they can really swing the Hog around in a turn.
Well, there ya have it, my $00.02 :D
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
There is a lack of WEP (none to be exact) but with 50% internal fuel and the lighter ammo load speed should not be an issue.
Taking the lighter ammo load will not give you any appreciable benefits that makes taking the lighter load worthwhile.
ack-ack
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I like the F6F in a furball. It is a really good plane. Doesnt do any one thing exceptionally, but doesnt do anything badly.
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Originally posted by tommygun
PWN? What is that..sorry I'm new.
Pwn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn)
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Originally posted by killnu
I will 2nd the P38G. Great plane slow with flaps out....lots of fire power in nose....and it is beautiful.:aok
EWWWWW "Stevie wonder special" nowhere looks as good as the 38L. :D :p
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DaddyAck, couple points on the F4Us:
That big radial engine helps give the Hog a lot of speed, but NOT a lot of acceleration. It's powerful but adds a lot to drag, which combined with the Hog's mass limits the acceleration. Unless you're nose-down, you're not gonna win the short drag.
If you're shedding wings in high-speed dives with the 1A you're doing something wrong. I've made full-power WEP-on dives in the 1A at airspeeds well exceeding 500mph with high-G blackout-inducing pullouts and not once lost parts.
Also, you don't want to use your gear for extended periods (some guys will say at all) in a furball. They help you slow down, that's all, and add nothing themselves to the F4U's turning ability. I rarely kick them out for more than half a second, the exception being my initial dive through to avoid overspeed.
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Originally posted by tommygun
PWN? What is that..sorry I'm new.
PWN'er is "One who Owns"
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Originally posted by Serenity
P-40E Tommohawk is a good turner with flaps down.
Well generally, the P-40D thru N were called the Kittyhawk (commonwealth) or Warhawk (AAF). Tomahawk was bestowed upon the export P-40B/C types.
As to flying the P-40s, flaps can greatly tighten the turn radius, but prolonged flaps use can be detrimental.
In a stall fight, either P-40 can surprise with their agility. However, excellent E management is required to excel in the type. Full flaps will eat speed rapidly and the lack of horsepower (which means lack of acceleration) means that you will not be able to replace that speed anytime soon without trading altitude.
Within the plane set, there are several aircraft that require some altitude to obtain maximum effectiveness. P-40s are two of those types. Altitude means that you can generate speed. Moreover, despite having only marginal power, the P-40s can dive as fast as any prop fighter and faster than most. Either can exceed 600 mph TAS with relative ease. To retain a reasonable measure of the control at that velocity, you will have to adjust trim a little during the dive. Elevator trim is quite powerful, so trimming it to neutral (center of scale) is more than enough to allow an undramatic pull-out. I have dive tested the P-40s, diving straight down from 30,000 feet. Virtually nothing can catch the P-40 in vertical dive like this. Some fighters can keep up, but once below 5,000 feet and doing better than 595 mph, no other fighter has better control authority than the P-40s. I've watched 190s and Spitfires shed wings trying to follow my P-40 through maneuvers at high Mach speeds (Mach .75). P-40s are extremely strong and can take much abuse.
We have been running a Thursday night clinic in the Training Arena this month (June), Fighting Multiple Enemies. We are practicing 3 on 1 combat. We start out with the group being divided into sub-groups of three. A Trainer takes each sub-group and flies as the lone fighter for the first engagement, with each pilot getting opportunities to fight the other three. My primary rides for these clinics has been the P-40B and P-40E. It has proven to be up to the task. A reasonably skilled pilot flying a P-40 should fear nothing.
Furballing in the P-40B...
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/P-40B-1.jpg)
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/P-40B-3.jpg)
P-40E landing. One of Fester's beautiful skins...
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/P-40E.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
A reasonably skilled pilot flying a P-40 should fear nothing.
Everyone who plays the congo line attack plan knows that once an enemy P-40 lifts from the attacked base, all other enemy are diregarded and the P-40 must die as soon as possible. :rofl
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Most U.S. planes do not take politely to the turn. In a furball, I either let them kill their energy climbing to me and let them be easy kills, or use my speed to dive into the fight and saddle up and kill the poor guy quickly. F4U's have great dives, can use gears as dive breaks, can up from a carrier, decent firepower, and, in the F4U-1 and F4U-1A, you have longer range due to wing tanks, and can burn them to turn with some of the best. I fly F4U's alot, and enjoy their versitality.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
LOL, fly the F4u-1 series. They PWN.
heh beat me to it...imagine their surprise...
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Originally posted by Hoarach
P38
werd
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
The great thing about the D hog is there is only one main fuel tank so there is no need to manually burn the wing tanks down to increase roll rate and since the wing tanks are gone the wings are internally strenthened so they do not rip off in dives ( yes I know it sounds lame, but I have repeadedly de-winged my 1A-Hog pulling out at the bottom of an agressive dive). The D-Hog will also turn deceptively well, just make use of the gear (which acts as a dive brake) and the flaps. When used together they can really swing the Hog around in a turn.
This is where u are wrong about having only 1 tank. -1 is better to fly into a furball. U have 3 tanks. If your main gets hit, u got 2 other fuel tanks to get u home. Now the -1 I fly with 75% fuel all the time unless I doing bomber escort which then I still take 75% fuel and DT. 75% alone in a -1 will give u 39 mins of flight time. Problem with -1 is if u take 50% fuel, then your wing tanks are empty. This is where the -1a comes in handy also for furballs. No matter what full load out u take. It puts fuel in all tanks. But the downside to that is u have to burn the wing tanks to lighten the wing loading to make it roll faster. -1 hog with 75% fuel has wing tanks alrdy at 25% which is low enough to manev. It will also get u home a full sector +. So when my main tank is empty, that my que to go home.
Now as for ripping wings off a hog, I have never ripped any wings off one yet. I have taking a -1 hog to 620mph and pulled out and almost at black out. Now the -1 locks up at that speed so u have to use trim to get it to pull out but once its down to 610, u can pull back on stick to continue to pull out.
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p51 pwns all:cool:
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Originally posted by AKDogg
Now as for ripping wings off a hog, I have never ripped any wings off one yet. I have taking a -1 hog to 620mph and pulled out and almost at black out. Now the -1 locks up at that speed so u have to use trim to get it to pull out but once its down to 610, u can pull back on stick to continue to pull out.
My problem with this is that the F4U-1 (or any other prop fighter) can't attain 620 mph. 601, even 603 (headed to an auger), but nowhere near 620 mph. There's quite a few that can manage between 598 and 602 mph, but none can reach 620 mph. I suspect your are basing your speed estimate on the air speed indicator. To obtain accurate speed data, E6B must be used.
Other than that, I agree that the F4Us are outstanding divers..
One plane that has utterly wrong dive modeling is the Typhoon. It does not begin to compress until about 550 mph. In reality, the Typhoon's critical Mach was similar to that of the P-38 and should begin buffeting far sooner at much lower speeds.
My regards,
Widewing
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I think Typhoons/Tempests have problems beyond simply compressibility...
Like the one dropping on me a couple weeks back in a screaming dive from my 7o'clock at ~400+ mph, I pull up and break into him, and LITERALLY watch him in my rear view almost seem to stop, rotate, and settle in on my six matching airspeeds in literally about a second.
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Originally posted by Saxman
DaddyAck, couple points on the F4Us:
That big radial engine helps give the Hog a lot of speed, but NOT a lot of acceleration. It's powerful but adds a lot to drag, which combined with the Hog's mass limits the acceleration. Unless you're nose-down, you're not gonna win the short drag.
If you're shedding wings in high-speed dives with the 1A you're doing something wrong. I've made full-power WEP-on dives in the 1A at airspeeds well exceeding 500mph with high-G blackout-inducing pullouts and not once lost parts.
Also, you don't want to use your gear for extended periods (some guys will say at all) in a furball. They help you slow down, that's all, and add nothing themselves to the F4U's turning ability. I rarely kick them out for more than half a second, the exception being my initial dive through to avoid overspeed.
I don't leave the gears out all the time, just when a little more stopping power is needed then back up they go, If it sounded like I meant otherwise I am sorry for the mix up :D
I swear to you, the F4u-1 (I like the F4U-1 alot as well) I can burn the wing tanks off and dive all I want to then pull out without any part loss, the f4u1a on the other hand as I said the wings rip in half and Im stuck limping back RTB with clipped wings. :(
As to the radial engine it has speed yes, but I never meant to imply its use as a sprint style acceleration plane. It is fast just not off the line so to speak. So if I sounded like I said it did accelerate quickly, that was not my intent. :aok
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Originally posted by AKDogg
This is where u are wrong about having only 1 tank. -1 is better to fly into a furball. U have 3 tanks. If your main gets hit, u got 2 other fuel tanks to get u home. Now the -1 I fly with 75% fuel all the time unless I doing bomber escort which then I still take 75% fuel and DT. 75% alone in a -1 will give u 39 mins of flight time. Problem with -1 is if u take 50% fuel, then your wing tanks are empty. This is where the -1a comes in handy also for furballs. No matter what full load out u take. It puts fuel in all tanks. But the downside to that is u have to burn the wing tanks to lighten the wing loading to make it roll faster. -1 hog with 75% fuel has wing tanks alrdy at 25% which is low enough to manev. It will also get u home a full sector +. So when my main tank is empty, that my que to go home.
Now as for ripping wings off a hog, I have never ripped any wings off one yet. I have taking a -1 hog to 620mph and pulled out and almost at black out. Now the -1 locks up at that speed so u have to use trim to get it to pull out but once its down to 610, u can pull back on stick to continue to pull out.
My choice of the D-hog is a matter of preference, I also enjoy the F4U-1 (I do manually burn down the wing tanks in it first and leave around 1/8 - 1/4 in them) but my ultimate favorite hog is the perked F4U-4. While you make a valid point about the multiple tanks, one which I agree with to a point. I personally do not worry about having only one tank, which is again not my take on gospel truth but merely my preference.
For the wing ripping thing, maby I did not phrase it right, they do not sheer off whole. They rater brake pff just slightly after the gull wing bend of the wing if that makes sense. I can still RTB safely most of the time, it is just annoying. I have made dives at more moderate speeds in an 1A and was fine, but if I get too agressive and try to fly it like a D-hog rip goes my wing tips. I personally do not like to fly the 1A, that just preference. :D
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i like the P40s although i usually flinch at slow planes! thats a funny skin(the Fester one, but I like it).
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Originally posted by tommygun
What is the best U.S. fighter to use against the Spits and Zero's in a furball.
Tough question. Really, there are no US fighters that can turn with these two planes. FM2, 38G, F4F are probably the closest, but all three will die if pilots are equal.
Use historic tactics (well...OK...historic against the Zeke, at least) when flying US planes against Spit and Zeke. Stay fast, keep your separation, work the energy fight, use your long-range guns. Corsairs, Hellcats, 51s all work just fine for this.
- oldman
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the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
outfly anything????
:huh
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
Ahh, no.... Read this, (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/mm748.pdf) and this. (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/dz540.pdf)
Within the game, the Mosquito Mk.IV is an effective fighter-bomber, but generally over-matched against fighters.... Max speed is not very good, well below the P-38s.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
That mossie is meat for the p38. Even a well flown mossie will have trouble with a 38.
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as................
I think in every thread that calls for one stating their opinion on their favorite plane has several of these posts in it. "Well my plane X can outfly anything as long as you fly it right."
And if flying it right means not augering and banking on the other pilot is in a full body cast, then yes this statement is true.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Taking the lighter ammo load will not give you any appreciable benefits that makes taking the lighter load worthwhile.
wouldn't the resulting lighter weight in the front of the aircraft significantly improve its turning ability?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by tommygun
What is the best U.S. fighter to use against the Spits and Zero's in a furball. They turn so well and I inevitably get lower and slower as I fight.
I want to fly a U.S. plane and am flying well enough now to get about one kill for every 1 and 1/2 deaths.
For any Spitfire you will have to use the FM2 Wildcat thats a bad boy at turning but beware. Japs either get them good while turning with those 6 or 8 50 cals or just BnZ all day long fun too.
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Originally posted by CAP1
wouldn't the resulting lighter weight in the front of the aircraft significantly improve its turning ability?
Not in any appreciable way that will gain you any sort of advantage, at least in AH it won't.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
I went round and round with a Mossie one night in a Ta-152 and we were pretty evenly matched in a slow turn fight on the deck. In fact he had a very slight edge and I'd have to extend occasionally but overall it was pretty close. There's no way a Mossie would outfly a P-38.
As to the topic at hand;
The FM2 is by far the best turn-fighter of the US planes but it's pretty specialized. It's generally too slow for much else.
The F4F is right behind it but the FM2 is really just an updated F4F so you may as well fly the FM2.
I also like the F6F in a furball and I've beat Spits with it one-on-one. You have to try to hold some speed and use flaps only at the right times to be effective with it.
The P-38G is another fun plane to turn fight in. Often you won't need to use flaps in the 38G. It turns pretty well on it's own but you may find an occasional need.
My final choice is the F4U-1A. Try to keep some speed with the F4U and again, use flaps judiciously.
Those are just my personal preferences. Statistics probably say something else.
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P-51D :aok
Course I like getting down and dirty on the deck even though I normally lose :o
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P-47 D-40. Turns like a Spitfire, built like a tank.
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F4U-1...why turn when you can snapshot? :)
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Originally posted by tommygun
What is the best U.S. fighter to use against the Spits and Zero's in a furball. They turn so well and I inevitably get lower and slower as I fight.
I want to fly a U.S. plane and am flying well enough now to get about one kill for every 1 and 1/2 deaths.
F4U1-D
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Some of you have said the P38G can be an exceptional turn fighter. It is better than the "L"?
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Originally posted by Chinchy
the mossy will outpower and outfly a p38 if its used right in fact a mossy an outfly anything aslong as you keep its E up run it on a 25% tank
and it flys at 400-480 at cruse speed
...of course it does...:huh
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Originally posted by tommygun
Some of you have said the P38G can be an exceptional turn fighter. It is better than the "L"?
The G turns better than the L and J but the G has no wep. The L also has boosted ailerons which sometimes help down low depending how you fly. Its really about personal preference.