Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ROC on June 16, 2007, 09:27:52 PM
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I thought there weren't any weapons of mass destruction.
I heard this early in the week, been looking for the video.
So, here we have a man chastising George Bush Sr. over doing nothing to Iraq when there was such clear evidence of the poison gas use, the attempt to get nukes etc. All of which, I thought, never happened? If it wasn't Al Gore saying this stuff, it wouldn't be nearly as funny.
He is accusing Bush Sr. of Not acting against Iraq, while Gore and Clinton After this speech and in office did nothing against Iraq. Now he and his other cronies are up in arms over GW for acting against Iraq and Lying about...what? Exactly what he's talking about here!
Gotta love politics. Let's fire em all, give the authority back to the local level where it belongs. These yahoos at the top have lost their minds.
AlGore (http://www.breitbart.tv/html/1602.html)
1992 people, 1992. Now, tell me that regardless of party, they pander to the clueless and uninformed, and Those clueless and uninformed are making the decisions. I worry, not for the Democrats and Republicans, and all the other parties that actually engage in a fact based debate, I worry because Most of the voters check in 5 minutes before the vote and click on the best Ad they saw on TV.
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If you aren't aware, Liberals aren't accountable for anything they say or do. Ever.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
If you aren't aware, Liberals aren't accountable for anything they say or do. Ever.
That is the most accurate thing I have read in a long time.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
If you aren't aware, Liberals aren't accountable for anything they say or do. Ever.
That is by far the stupidest thing I've read in a long time.
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WOW a 15 year old tape, why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas? you might be real suprised.
EDIT:::: Just a simple google search i found this...
by Norman Solomon
Christmas came 11 days early for Donald Rumsfeld two years ago when the news broke that American forces had pulled Saddam Hussein from a spidery hole. During interviews about the capture, on CBS and ABC, the Pentagon's top man was upbeat. And he didn't have to deal with a question that Lesley Stahl or Peter Jennings could have logically chosen to ask: "Secretary Rumsfeld, you met with Saddam almost exactly 20 years ago and shook his hand. What kind of guy was he?"
Now, Saddam Hussein has gone on trial, but such questions remain unasked by mainstream U.S. journalists. Rumsfeld met with Hussein in Baghdad on behalf of the Reagan administration, opening up strong diplomatic and military ties that lasted through six more years of Saddam's murderous brutality.
As it happens, the initial trial of Saddam and co-defendants is focusing on grisly crimes that occurred the year before Rumsfeld gripped his hand. "The first witness, Ahmad Hassan Muhammad, 38, riveted the courtroom with the scenes of torture he witnessed after his arrest in 1982, including a meat grinder with human hair and blood under it," the New York Times reported Tuesday. And: "At one point, Mr. Muhammad briefly broke down in tears as he recalled how his brother was tortured with electrical shocks in front of their 77-year-old father."
The victims were *****es -- 143 men and adolescent boys, according to the charges -- tortured and killed in the Iraqi town of Dujail after an assassination attempt against Saddam in early July of 1982. Donald Rumsfeld became the Reagan administration's Middle East special envoy 15 months later.
On Dec. 20, 1983, the Washington Post reported that Rumsfeld "visited Iraq in what U.S. officials said was an attempt to bolster the already improving U.S. relations with that country." A couple of days later, the New York Times cited a "senior American official" who "said that the United States remained ready to establish full diplomatic relations with Iraq and that it was up to the Iraqis."
On March 29, 1984, the Times reported: "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with relations between Iraq and the United States and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been restored in all but name." Washington had some goodies for Saddam's regime, the Times account noted, including "agricultural-commodity credits totaling $840 million." And while "no results of the talks have been announced" after the Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad three months earlier, "Western European diplomats assume that the United States now exchanges some intelligence on Iran with Iraq."
A few months later, on July 17, 1984, a Times article with a Baghdad dateline sketchily filled in a bit more information, saying that the U.S. government "granted Iraq about $2 billion in commodity credits to buy food over the last two years." The story recalled that "Donald Rumsfeld, the former Middle East special envoy, held two private meetings with the Iraqi president here," and the dispatch mentioned in passing that "State Department human rights reports have been uniformly critical of the Iraqi President, contending that he ran a police state."
Full diplomatic relations between Washington and Baghdad were restored 11 months after Rumsfeld's December 1983 visit with Saddam. He went on to use poison gas later in the decade, actions which scarcely harmed relations with the Reagan administration.
As the most senior U.S. official to visit Iraq in six years, Rumsfeld had served as Reagan's point man for warming relations with Saddam. In 1984, the administration engineered the sale to Baghdad of 45 ostensibly civilian-use Bell 214ST helicopters. Saddam's military found them quite useful for attacking Kurdish civilians with poison gas in 1988, according to U.S. intelligence sources. "In response to the gassing," journalist Jeremy Scahill has pointed out, "sweeping sanctions were unanimously passed by the U.S. Senate that would have denied Iraq access to most U.S. technology. The measure was killed by the White House."
The USA's big media institutions did little to illuminate how Washington and business interests combined to strengthen and arm Saddam Hussein during many of his worst crimes. "In the 1980s and afterward, the United States underwrote 24 American corporations so they could sell to Saddam Hussein weapons of mass destruction, which he used against Iran, at that time the prime Middle Eastern enemy of the United States," writes Ben Bagdikian, a former assistant managing editor of the Washington Post, in his book The New Media Monopoly. "Hussein used U.S.-supplied poison gas" against Iranians and Kurds "while the United States looked the other way."
Of course the crimes of the Saddam Hussein regime were not just in the future when Rumsfeld came bearing gifts in 1983. Saddam's large-scale atrocities had been going on for a long time. Among them were the methodical torture and murders in Dujail that have been front-paged this week in coverage of the former dictator's trial; they occurred 17 months before Rumsfeld arrived in Baghdad.
Today, inside the corporate media frame, history can be supremely relevant when it focuses on Hussein's torture and genocide. But the historic assistance of the U.S. government and American firms is largely off the subject and beside the point.
A photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand on Dec. 20, 1983, is easily available. (It takes a few seconds to find via Google.) But the picture has been notably absent from the array of historic images that U.S. media outlets are providing to viewers and readers in coverage of the Saddam Hussein trial. And journalistic mention of Rumsfeld's key role in aiding the Iraqi tyrant has been similarly absent. Apparently, in the world according to U.S. mass media, some history matters profoundly and some doesn't matter at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGCcnjVW2CU
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Originally posted by 68ZooM
... why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas? you might be real suprised.
Looks like Iraq produced the gas themselves with material and knowhow from elswhere.
According Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from firms in such countries as: the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and China. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.
As far as who's to blame,
In relation to Iran, if any military or civil official claims that Saddam gave orders to use either conventional or special ammunition, which as explained is chemical, I will take responsibility with honor. But I will discuss any act committed against our people and any Iraqi citizen, whether Arab or Kurdish. I don't accept any insult to my principles or to me personally. -- Saddam Hussein
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Originally posted by midnight Target
That is by far the stupidest thing I've read in a long time.
Why look, a liberal proving the point. :aok
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Actually in 1992 there was a decent case that Iraq had WMD. The evidence that I saw collected after the invasion said that Saddam had dismantled his programs and put them into deep storage after the first gulf war.
Hell I thought he had them before we unilaterally invaded, but that didn't make it right. Nor does it mean that administration deception regarding intelligence was justified.
Al Gore can be criticized for many things, but I don't think this is one of them. The time to act was then, not 11 years later. Sure he and Clinton made their fair share of blunders, some regarding Iraq, but what he was saying was more true then about Iraq that just about anything Bush has said in the past 6 years.
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why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas?
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He was supposed to use the gas on Iranian soldiers, Not his own people. Now who is to blame for all the murdering that saddam ordered? Oh yeah, Americans are to blame....typical liberal :rolleyes:
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Clinton....
Now there's the joke.
And some of you want to bring this crap back into the White House...
Muhahhahhahhaaa... yer killin me.
Mac
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Originally posted by Dago
Why look, a liberal proving the point. :aok
I was wrong. Turns out it was the second stupidest.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I was wrong. Turns out it was the second stupidest.
I almost, ALMOST posted right after dago's first that 50% of the people would tend to disagree with us.
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Originally posted by 68ZooM
WOW a 15 year old tape, why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas? you might be real suprised.
EDIT:::: Just a simple google search i found this...
by Norman Solomon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGCcnjVW2CU
Now, normally I would criticize you for googling information to make an point in an argument (because we all know the internet is 100% accurate and that aliens built the pyramids in Egypt); however, the article is by Norman Solomon, a very well recognized and awarded columnist.
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Originally posted by Fulmar
Now, normally I would criticize you for googling information to make an point in an argument (because we all know the internet is 100% accurate and that aliens built the pyramids in Egypt); however, the article is by Norman Solomon, a very well recognized and awarded columnist.
I highlighted the important word for you there.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I highlighted the important word for you there.
Must mean he's a moron then, right?
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Originally posted by Fulmar
Now, normally I would criticize you for googling information to make an point in an argument (because we all know the internet is 100% accurate and that aliens built the pyramids in Egypt); however, the article is by Norman Solomon, a very well recognized and awarded columnist.
Just because he is a well recognized and awarded columnist doesn't meant everything he wrote is accurate. He says America sold Saddam poison gas. Afaik, no country sold Saddam actual chemical weapons. Many countries did sell him precursors though, including the USA. America didn't sell him anything that didn't have a dual use.
Sirloin made the statement that America sold Saddam chemical weapons and then provided a list of biological agents. I went through his list and found that each agent had a legitimate civilian use, even if that use was just for research.
Well, I didn't get all the way through the list, it got real late and my eyes were starting to bug out from so much reading, but I did make it to the last 5 or 6 items.
If you can provide a list of chemicals the USA sold Saddam, I will go through it and see if any of them don't have a dual use. I will also list them individually, with sources and tell what commercial/research etc use they have.
Funny how America isn't even in the top 5 of Holden's list (I've seen that list before) yet folks continue to insist that America is the one responsible for Iraq having chemical weapons when 3 western European countries are in the top 5 and one is in a not so distant second place.
Also, iirc, Western European countries lead the way in selling production equipment.
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Originally posted by Yeager
why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas?
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He was supposed to use the gas on Iranian soldiers, Not his own people. Now who is to blame for all the murdering that saddam ordered? Oh yeah, Americans are to blame....typical liberal :rolleyes:
What a flippin dolt.... please explain where i said America was to blame.
You wouldnt know a liberal if it slapped ya in the face... Now go back under your Bridge
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Originally posted by Fulmar
Now, normally I would criticize you for googling information to make an point in an argument (because we all know the internet is 100% accurate and that aliens built the pyramids in Egypt); however, the article is by Norman Solomon, a very well recognized and awarded columnist.
Thats why i posted it... i thought it was a very good read
EDIT...... Heres another link by the US Army very interesting reading. its very long but you have to read it all to understand, you just cant read a few lines.
http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume1/july_2003/7_03_2v2.html
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Originally posted by Elfie
Sirloin made the statement that America sold Saddam chemical weapons and then provided a list of biological agents. I went through his list and found that each agent had a legitimate civilian use, even if that use was just for research.
Your "Duel Use" argument was so rediculous i didn't bother to respond..I suppose you could say enriched plutonium has more than one use as well..:lol
I have yet to see any evidence that chemical weapons were shipped from the USA(as i incorrectly stated)..They were nasty Bio-Weapons(WMD) that Saddam did not end up using.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Your "Duel Use" argument was so rediculous i didn't bother to respond..I suppose you could say enriched plutonium has more than one use as well..:lol
I have yet to see any evidence that chemical weapons were shipped from the USA(as i incorrectly stated)..They were nasty Bio-Weapons(WMD) that Saddam did not end up using.
Chem and bio weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
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What a flippin dolt....
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whats a dolt? and why do they flip?
please explain where i said America was to blame.
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who is to blame, in your opinion?
its very long but you have to read it all to understand, you just cant read a few lines.
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Since you posted it, can you at least summarize it?
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Originally posted by Yeager
why dont you research who Sold Saddam the Gas?
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He was supposed to use the gas on Iranian soldiers, Not his own people. Now who is to blame for all the murdering that saddam ordered? Oh yeah, Americans are to blame ....typical liberal
Guess you didnt post that now did you.... Or is it just another Witty comment that you always seem to have when you respond to something you obviously no nothing about.
I posted a Link so people could read the entire article for themselves, in there own time, and come to their own Concusions, instead of a breif summary to an article that is very lengthy.... And would just get cut and pasted to whatever they wanted others to see.
Unless your uncapable of clicking the link and reading it for yourself, Then by all means ask your parents for help.
As far as who i think is to blame, The verdict is still out.... I'm still reading other publications on the subject.
To tell you what a Flippin Dolt is would get me banned
:rofl
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Your "Duel Use" argument was so rediculous i didn't bother to respond..I suppose you could say enriched plutonium has more than one use as well..:lol
I have yet to see any evidence that chemical weapons were shipped from the USA(as i incorrectly stated)..They were nasty Bio-Weapons(WMD) that Saddam did not end up using.
No, they weren't bio-weapons. They were biological agents and they weren't in a weaponized form.
Could those agents have been used for bio-weapons research? Sure they could have. They could also have just as easily been used for legitimate purposes. That was the whole point to my 3 or 4 post response, to show what other uses each item could have.
It's also important to note that the US stopped selling chemical precursors when it became known that Saddam was using chemical weapons. The US also stopped selling dual-use bio-agents when it became known he was working on biological weapons. That makes it highly unlikely that the US knowingly and willfully sold Saddam any dual-use item with the intent to help him aquire chemical or biological weapons.
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Or is it just another Witty comment that you always seem to have when you respond to something you obviously no nothing about.
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what are we talking about?
:rolleyes:
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Maybe you need to re-read your comment remember this one?
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He was supposed to use the gas on Iranian soldiers, Not his own people. Now who is to blame for all the murdering that saddam ordered? Oh yeah, Americans are to blame....typical liberal
Or shall i say Smartprettythanged comment, Does that work for you?
Other than that I'm done with your Replies. :rofl
Or are we just trolling now :D
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I almost forgot, enriched Uranium has 2 uses. It can either be used to make nuclear weapons or it can be used as a fuel in a nuclear reactor for generating power. Very few countries actually use nuclear powered ships, the more common use would be nuclear power plants for generating electricity.
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Yeah but civilian uranium is enriched to like 2 or 3% U238
Weapons grade is like 95% U238
Huge difference
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I think you swapped 235 and 238, I'll check later.
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yup... 235 is the fissile isotope...
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IMO, the WMDs that Iraq under Saddam was accused of having could have been moved out of the country or hidden in the vastness and deepness of the sands. We did give him early warning that we were coming--bad idea IMO. Whether or not the weapons exist now..... I dont know. I do know that Saddam's record of past action showed he had such weapons and also used them, which leads me to the conclusion that he could have still had some and would more than likely have hidden them in the hopes that he would regain access to them again. Thankfully, we did not let bugger escape this time.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
yup... 235 is the fissile isotope...
you were faster than me :)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeah but civilian uranium is enriched to like 2 or 3% U238
Weapons grade is like 95% U238
Huge difference
Now that I didn't know. I stand corrected. :D