Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on June 18, 2007, 06:55:07 PM
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Abu Ghraib is old news... but here's something more.
The story of Major General Antonio Taguba's investigation of the abuses.
linky (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true)
It's worth a read, but I promise you won't like it.
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does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".
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The full report as published by the investigating teams is available to everyone.
Link to Hearing info:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
All of the abuses were documented. The report has always been available to the public. What all of us do not know is if Taguba made personal complaints off the record to his superiors in a non acceptable manner for the environment he was a member of and that was why he was asked to retire. Sr. Officers in the U.S. Military get fired in this manner. Normally the media couldnt give a rat's hind end. Do you remember how many Sr. Officers took the walk of shame during the Clinton regime? This is old news. If were Cosovo and the Clinton era the media would be ruining Taguba for being disloyal to Der Schlick Meister.
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Originally posted by john9001
does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".
So sinking to their level is a good thing?
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Originally posted by john9001
does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".
If you read the report, you'll note that there were just one or two Al Qaeda prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
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photographs showing prisoners stripped, abused, and sexually humiliated,
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Not very pleasant sounding for sure, but does this report illustrate ( I haven't read it, summary anyone?) what real torture was going on there? Was there any of the classic physical knuckle busting, testicle crushing, skull drilling type torture going on at Abu Ghraib?
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Originally posted by rpm
So sinking to their level is a good thing?
I agree that the conduct of our soldiers; the abuse, mistreatment and neglect of those prisoners was wrong but how can you compare those incidents to beheadings?
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Originally posted by Yeager
photographs showing prisoners stripped, abused, and sexually humiliated,
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Not very pleasant sounding for sure, but does this report illustrate ( I haven't read it, summary anyone?) what real torture was going on there? Was there any of the classic physical knuckle busting, testicle crushing, skull drilling type torture going on at Abu Ghraib?
I read it, and while it didn't go into a lot of specifics, it certainly hinted at some pretty nasty physical abuse. It also mentioned a video of an American soldier sodomizing a female detainee and hinted at much worse photographs than were released to the public.
Something I find very disturbing is that General Taguba was only authorized to investigate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and not any further up the chain of command.
rpm I don't believe that we have sunk to the level of the terrorists yet.....
Otoh, if abuses like this are not curbed immediately and ALL of those responsible, including officers, no matter how high their rank, are not held accountable, how do we ensure that this doesn't happen again, or even isn't still happening.
Thanks for the link Sandman. I hadn't seen anything like this yet, I had only seen the pictures that were released to the public. While I didn't agree with what was being done in those pictures, I also didn't think they constituted torture either. Now I'm not so sure considering we haven't seen the worst of it.
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Originally posted by Jappa52
I agree that the conduct of our soldiers; the abuse, mistreatment and neglect of those prisoners was wrong but how can you compare those incidents to beheadings?
Oh yeah... we want to get in on this limbo dance.
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I also didn't think they constituted torture either. Now I'm not so sure considering we haven't seen the worst of it.
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A very important piece to this story, I would think, is knowing what has become of the individuals that were charged with criminal acts at Abu Ghraib.
Has our system reacted in a punitive manner to those guilty of crimes at Abu Ghraib?
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Originally posted by Yeager
photographs showing prisoners stripped, abused, and sexually humiliated,
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Not very pleasant sounding for sure, but does this report illustrate ( I haven't read it, summary anyone?) what real torture was going on there? Was there any of the classic physical knuckle busting, testicle crushing, skull drilling type torture going on at Abu Ghraib?
From the story, not the report:
"In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. “Could you tell us what happened?” Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, “Is it abuse or torture?” At that point, Taguba recalled, “I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, ‘That’s not abuse. That’s torture.’ There was quiet.”"
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Originally posted by Yeager
I also didn't think they constituted torture either. Now I'm not so sure considering we haven't seen the worst of it.
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A very important piece to this story, I would think, is knowing what has become of the individuals that were charged with criminal acts at Abu Ghraib.
Has our system reacted in a punitive manner to those guilty of crimes at Abu Ghraib?
Yeager... Please, read the story. It'll save everyone a lot of time.
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We haven't reached the beheading level....yet. Hopefully we never will. Just as Elfie said, these abuses need to be nipped in the bud.
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Originally posted by rpm
We haven't reached the beheading level....yet. Hopefully we never will. Just as Elfie said, these abuses need to be nipped in the bud.
Taguba said. “And yet when we get to the senior-officer level we forget those values. I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.”
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Originally posted by john9001
does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".
who is this "we" to which you refer?
(looks under rock)
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Abu Ghraib is old news...
naaaah, this will be used again and again by our terrorist enemies and by the American liberal politcal party - for their respective political purposes, even though the persons responsible have been prosecuted and sentenced by American justice.
meanwhile, neither of these entities would like to focus on Islamist torturers - publicity about the truley hideous nature of real torture doesn't do anything to further either of their interests....
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Good read..
I especially feel sympathy for General Taguba...All he was asked to do was get close to the truth...an he ended up flying to close to the sun.
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naaaah, this will be used again and again by our terrorist enemies and by the American liberal politcal party - for their respective political purposes, even though the persons responsible have been prosecuted and sentenced by American justice.
meanwhile, neither of these entities would like to focus on Islamist torturers - publicity about the truly hideous nature of real torture doesn't do anything to further either of their interests....
The problem is, as you point out, in 4th Generation warfare an incident like Abu Ghraib is equal to losing an offensive or having the defensive line break in conventional warfare. Any positive returns generated (and apparently there were not all that many) were far outweighed by the negatives. Apparently there weren't that many actual "insurgents" in the prison, and such methods traditionally have poor returns for the effort even if the subject is authentic (unlike "21" on TV). It's better to have Joe civilian drop the dime on the bad guys operating in his neighborhood because he is one with the cause.
It makes our enemies far stronger. It allows them to recruit. It weakens any popular support among the population. It means they will tend to fight to the death rather than be captured -- more so than otherwise. It impacts support among our friends internationally and it impacts political support at home. Functionally, it shows poor military discipline and leadership. It shows in one slice of how poorly prepared we are to fight and win this type of struggle. The Fulda Gap ceased to be important a decade or more ago, but we never transitioned.
This was avoidable. What Al Queda does to its prisoners is immeterial (though civilian bombings start to become important). Rightly or wrongly we are the invaders, the outsiders, the alternative. It's what we do that matters to these people. We're don't have to win the hearts and minds of Fox TV viewers.
Charon
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Charon, i don't disagree at all with your main idea. Abu Ghraib turned out to work against us... it was a symbol of evil even before we got there. I question some of the judgement and leadership surrounding that issue, including the stupidity of allowing cameras inside.
my point, and the point others here are trying to make, is that in 4th Gen Wartime, our country has to stick together and speak externally with one voice, instead of siezing on every mistake or foul up and publisizing it world wide as loudly as possible to make the current administration look bad, the way the then out-of-power democrat party has done - for political gain. This is not to say that the Abu Ghraib issues should not be addressed.
4th Generation war is still war, with American lives at stake. that hasn't changed, but it didn't seem to mean much to democrat politicians tripping all over themselves to be the first to trumpet Abu Ghraib world wide to make as much trouble as possible to shame Bush and America and pave their way back into power - the aide and comfort to the enemy was coincidental I'm sure.
real torture, the kind used by the islamists - the nightmare stuff that results in agony, permanent injuries and death, is germain to my point because the silence about it from the very same trumpeters of Abu Ghraib illustrates the self-serving cynacism of the American liberal politicians and the islamists.
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A very important piece to this story, I would think, is knowing what has become of the individuals that were charged with criminal acts at Abu Ghraib.
Has our system reacted in a punitive manner to those guilty of crimes at Abu Ghraib?
Those that were charged were all low ranking enlisted personnel. Those that gave the orders, are left unscathed so far. So the answer to your question is both yes and no.
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For comparison, when Saddam ran the prison...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3747005.stm
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
For comparison, when Saddam ran the prison...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3747005.stm
Not relevant.
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Hearing Gunthr preaching 4th gen is like some personification of hypocrisy.
at least evolution is alive and well..
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by john9001
does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".
Are we al Qaeda?
Why would you want to compare or put our country in the same league as a terrorist group.
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He has to do his shuck and jive Sandman. Otherwise, he would have to admit you're right.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Something I find very disturbing is that General Taguba was only authorized to investigate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and not any further up the chain of command.
Of course not.. We all know where the guilt lies but that's what pawns are for. In this case our great leaders whom love to say they support our troops, sure as hell don't mind feeding the troops to the meat grinder if it's their bellybutton on the line.
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Originally posted by rpm
He has to do his shuck and jive Sandman. Otherwise, he would have to admit you're right.
Ya know... **** it. If we're going to live by the standards of other less developed countries, let's do it all the way. Start the conscription now. Annex whatever country we want and take whatever resources we need. We'll either be victorious or destroy the planet in the attempt. Become the empire to end all empires.