Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on June 19, 2007, 07:47:32 AM
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Are we missing somebody here?
Didnt someone here mention doing this a while back? lol
"Calling the federal agents surrounding his fortified compound "guns for hire," a New Hampshire man convicted of tax evasion vowed today that he and his wife would fight U.S. marshals to the death if they tried to capture them."
They Threaten Fight to the Death (http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/couple-holed-up-in-house-over-tax/20070618190609990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001)
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Randy Weaver is backing them up. It's bound to end well.
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thats the way taxes work.. if you don't pay em they will come and take everything you own and throw you in jail.
If you resist... they will kill you. Thats the way government works.
lazs
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Necessary evil, Lazs, or do you have a solution in which government isn't evil? :)
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The ol' "Freemason" conspiracy. :noid
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It's never necessary to steal a man's money by force.
Like I said last time, I think their ploy is brilliant. They are forcing the government to show that at their core, they are thieves, willing to get their money in any means they believe necessary.
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"We have no intention of assaulting the house or engaging in a violent confrontation."
Gee.........I believe I have heard that before somewhere.
Last week, Danny Riley a friend of the Browns was arrested near their home by federal agents while walking the couple's dog.
What`s the Federal punishment for walking a dog nowadays?
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When do the tanks arrive?
:noid
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's never necessary to steal a man's money by force.
Like I said last time, I think their ploy is brilliant. They are forcing the government to show that at their core, they are thieves, willing to get their money in any means they believe necessary.
And the result if they let these folks get away with it is that more will follow. Then they'll have a full-scale tax revolt on their hands which makes more problems for Gov't. In the Gov'tments thinking, better to sacrifice two then have problems with many.
They're as good as dead.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Gee.........I believe I have heard that before somewhere.
LOL I was kinda thinking the same thing.
Now what they need is some Davy Crokett and Jim Bowie types to join them.
Then it really gets to be interesting
Maybe a couple pilot types to drop em in some supplies.
Personally if it were my property I'd have the thing laiden in booby traps.
I'd also have several tunnels leading out well beyond the end of my property to allow me to enter and leave behind the feds so as to get supplies
In any event it should be interesting to say the least.
Finally
Something interesting going on
One thing is for sure.
no matter what way they slice it.
No way this ends with the feds smelling like roses
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so engine.. since we must have some government then there is no limit to how much is good?
I would reduce the govenment by about 90% to start and have the constitution and bill of rights be the guide.
We have no need of taxes that go into a general fund.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And the result if they let these folks get away with it is that more will follow. Then they'll have a full-scale tax revolt on their hands which makes more problems for Gov't. In the Gov'tments thinking, better to sacrifice two then have problems with many.
They're as good as dead.
Sacrifice would mean that they'd let these people die.
The word you're looking for is murder.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And the result if they let these folks get away with it is that more will follow. Then they'll have a full-scale tax revolt on their hands which makes more problems for Gov't. In the Gov'tments thinking, better to sacrifice two then have problems with many.
They're as good as dead.
IMO this country is approaching a time when we may see a revolt, period
Its happened just about everywhere else.
I dont see why we would be exempt
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The way I understand it, the forefathers set it up so that we the people will not be double, triple taxed (based on what England was doing to the colonists at the time) however we are constantly double, tripled, quadruple taxed all the time. Can anyone verify the first sentence?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
IMO this country is approaching a time when we may see a revolt, period
Its happened just about everywhere else.
I dont see why we would be exempt
It needs to be via your congress persons and senators. Lobbying. Any other way is suicidal and confrontational which always ends in tragedy.
It would be impossible to do though, the left always states that they are willing to pay more taxes.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
It needs to be via your congress persons and senators. Lobbying. Any other way is suicidal and confrontational which always ends in tragedy.
Only if the soldiers become willing to start shooting the general populace
I think at some point its going to happen.
Its going ot start small.
Maybe even with somethign like this.
But then its going to rapidly escalate as the people become more and more enraged
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The way I understand it, the forefathers set it up so that we the people will not be double, triple taxed (based on what England was doing to the colonists at the time) however we are constantly double, tripled, quadruple taxed all the time. Can anyone verify the first sentence?
Just read the constitution, and saw nothing about it in there. That includes all the amendments.
Dred, I disagree. You will be surprised by how quickly it will flash over, given the proper catalyst.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would reduce the govenment by about 90% to start and have the constitution and bill of rights be the guide.
that's where ya gotta start, spending. can't keep passing 2.7 trillion dollar budgets if ya wanna lower taxes.
We have no need of taxes that go into a general fund.
we have even less need of an income tax that barely covers the interest on the national debt. our taxes are spent before we even file.
Ron Paul knows what to do.
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a bloody revolution would be a terrible thing that would get no good results in our lifetime. nation wide protest and the change it would cause would be far more acceptable.
lazs
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I'm sorry but this bit in the article pretty much showed them to be total nutjobs. No matter what they think as far as the validity of the govt. to levy taxes is concerned they lost all credibility with this bit of paranoia.
Quote-"Brown also insisted that he could not receive a fair trial in a federal court because "the court system falls under freemasonry."
"There [are] no longer any lawful courts. The Freemasons have taken over our nation. … [Freemasons want] to take over our nation and all nations on the planet," Brown said. "end quote
:noid :noid :noid
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Thats just down the rud a piece.
To bad our state doesnt have a motto or something fitting.
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So long as we have people trying to FORCE an armed confrontation with the government, for the most part they'll be considered nut cases by the majority, and there'll be little outcry over the results of armed confrontations.
Even many of the most hard core anti tax people admit that tax laws are laws, whether they are fair and just, or not. There is nothing in the Constitution the prevents the government from levying taxes. Even federal income taxes.
We have reached the point where the one fundamental and possibly fatal flaw in our system has become the biggest threat. Whenever the citizens discover they can vote themselves entitlements without paying for them, the system that allows citizens to do so is almost surely doomed. The citizens have discovered that. They elect those who will seek the entitlements for them, and those they elect will do ANYTHING to remain in office.
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Originally posted by Maverick
I'm sorry but this bit in the article pretty much showed them to be total nutjobs. No matter what they think as far as the validity of the govt. to levy taxes is concerned they lost all credibility with this bit of paranoia.
Quote-"Brown also insisted that he could not receive a fair trial in a federal court because "the court system falls under freemasonry."
"There [are] no longer any lawful courts. The Freemasons have taken over our nation. … [Freemasons want] to take over our nation and all nations on the planet," Brown said. "end quote
:noid :noid :noid
So long as those are the sort of people who "lead":rolleyes: the revolt against high taxes and big government, the movement is doomed, completely and utterly doomed.
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Originally posted by lazs2
a bloody revolution would be a terrible thing that would get no good results in our lifetime. nation wide protest and the change it would cause would be far more acceptable.
lazs
I agree with that. Armed revolt will almost certainly end in disaster. Even if the military stands down, and there is very little bloodshed.
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after fighting a war with england over taxes, the first thing the new govt of the US did was put a tax on whiskey to pay for the war. Which started a tax revolt that pres Washington put down with the US military.
go figure.
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I'm for very low taxes, and very little government. But the Browns do not represent me.
I'm for minimal, if any gun control. But Randy Weaver does not represent me.
I'm for religious freedom. But David Koresh and the Branch Davidians did not represent me.
We will NEVER make ANY progress, so long as people glorify the acts of fools and idiots who decide they are above the law rather than working to change the law.
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Well said Virgil
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I have some relatives that got into this whole "income tax is illegal" movement and ran an e-mail list for it in the early 90's. It consumed their lives and they vowed to never let the government get the better of them. They had a nice home and land in a nice country setting, cars, good jobs, the American dream. In the end they lost everything and were lucky to walk away with their freedom.
The feds might not storm the compound like ruby ridge or Waco, but they are no less determined to get this couple and in the end they will, one way or another.
"In addition to Weaver's son, one federal agent was killed in that incident."
I guess the death of Vicki Weaver wasn’t worth mentioning in the article.
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Originally posted by john9001
after fighting a war with england over taxes, the first thing the new govt of the US did was put a tax on whiskey to pay for the war. Which started a tax revolt that pres Washington put down with the US military.
go figure.
Do you understand that the Revolutionary War came about as a result of taxation without representation, not taxation in general. There's a difference between a king arbitrarily deciding that his subjects will pay whatever he deems necessary and your congress representing (supposedly) your best interests.
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Taxes are the lifeblood of government, threaten that and the government will do anything up to and including extermination to defeat the threat.
shamus
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that's where ya gotta start, spending. can't keep passing 2.7 trillion dollar budgets if ya wanna lower taxes.
I've read that the optimal tax rate is 23%. (That includes all taxes, sales tax, income tax, hidden taxes etc.) Isn't our current tax rate somewhere close to 50%? Supposedly 23% is the point where the gov't brings in the most money because fewer people cheat on their taxes and they have more disposable income to buy things which results in more sales tax revenue.
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Originally posted by Goth
Do you understand that the Revolutionary War came about as a result of taxation without representation, not taxation in general. There's a difference between a king arbitrarily deciding that his subjects will pay whatever he deems necessary and your congress representing (supposedly) your best interests.
Do you understand that the Revolutionary War came about only as a result of radicals who fomented war? All the reasons given to start the war were incredibly weak. If it were not for those you would call fools now, the war would have never started.
The self ignorance of american history will doom it for ever.
I agree with that. Armed revolt will almost certainly end in disaster. Even if the military stands down, and there is very little bloodshed.
Armed revolt is the only solution. There is no other viable solution while those who corrupt this country maintain absolute power.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dred, I disagree. You will be surprised by how quickly it will flash over, given the proper catalyst.
Given the second part of your statement in responce to me
Im not sure I understand what it is your disagreeing with me on.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Do you understand that the Revolutionary War came about only as a result of radicals who fomented war? All the reasons given to start the war were incredibly weak. If it were not for those you would call fools now, the war would have never started.
The self ignorance of american history will doom it for ever.
Armed revolt is the only solution. There is no other viable solution while those who corrupt this country maintain absolute power.
This, my friends, is why the 2nd amendment is under constant attack. A disarmed populous presents little threat. By the time they come after the things you cherish, it's too late.
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......btw, I just agreed with laser. Off to the shrink I go!!!!!!!
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I think it is only fitting he makes his last stand in New Hampshire.
:aok
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do you folks realize that the first tax revolt the rupublic put down was led by george washington himself? malcontents and freeloaders are nothing new. if you don't like the system here move elsewhere. I hear central american republics don't enforce tax collection, move there.
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Originally posted by storch
do you folks realize that the first tax revolt the rupublic put down was led by george washington himself? malcontents and freeloaders are nothing new. if you don't like the system here move elsewhere. I hear central american republics don't enforce tax collection, move there.
I guess working or doing something to change the system is COMPLETELY out of the question
This was supposed to be a country of the people,for the people,by the people.
Its rapidly becomming a country Of big business and big government. By big business and big government, FOR big business and big government.
No. If you dont like the system here. If you dont like whats going on.
Dont just complain like so many of us do. Get up and actually DO something about it.
while the guy may very well be a nut. He isnt out attacking anyone.
Nor is he threatoning anyone
He is doing what he sees as defending himself
and basically saying that if he is attacked he will fight.
And he may very well be willing to fight and die for what he beleives is right.
A breath of fresh air IMO
While he may be a nut. I can respect that.
He is at least doing something.
A hell of alot more then the rest of us sheep are
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Still, not paying taxes is against the law. Getting himself and his wife killed, along with others DOES NOT help the case against absurd taxes and big government. Nor does aligning himself with Randy Weaver.
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not so. it is very much a country of the common man.
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Originally posted by storch
do you folks realize that the first tax revolt the rupublic put down was led by george washington himself? malcontents and freeloaders are nothing new. if you don't like the system here move elsewhere. I hear central american republics don't enforce tax collection, move there.
Again with the ignorance of american history. The first tax revolt to be put down was done so by mercenaries hired by the governor of Massachusetts. Why was it done by mercenaries? Because the people refused to do what they saw as wrong in the first place. This quickly established what the government was willing to do to get it's tax money.
It was only after the reformation of the republic did Washington have the authority and power to have the national militia put down ANOTHER revolt.
Both times, they revolted for the same reasons. The governments placed illogically high taxes on one of the common poor farmer's only means of making a little cash for himself to cover any costs he might have received throughout the season. A tax which WAS NOT THERE under British rule. This tax was the main reason that many farmers broke and were sent to debtors' prison. These "Freeloaders" were farmers who only sometimes had enough crop to survive.
And yet you insult them.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Still, not paying taxes is against the law.
actually, that's the point he's making, what law? he claims there is no law that requires him to pay an income tax and was willing to take it to trial until the judge made it clear in his instructions to the jury that the Brown's wouldn't be able to present their defense. or something like that.
basically Ed Brown figured he was dealing with a kangaroo court and said forget it. They were then convicted in absentia and are now "convicted tax evaders" "holed up in a compound", when all they really did was say "screw this, we're going home."
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Again, few people have more dislike of excessive taxes than I. Fewer still have more distrust of the government. However, the law regarding taxes is on the books, in black and white. His defense is not valid, has been proven to be so, and legal precedent clearly states that fact. Brown had his chance to go to court, he just couldn't present the defense he wanted, so instead of fighting the law within the law, he decided to just avoid the law, and provoke a confrontation.
Regardless of your opinion of the laws, this is still a nation based on the rule of law. You don't get to decide you "don't like a law" or decide a "law doesn't exist", and just ignore it. Things don't work that way. If it did, what we'd have is anarchy.
And trying to draw a comparison between the causes of the American Revolution and the Browns, or the Weavers, or the Branch Davidians, is insulting to the founders of the country, and to the intelligence of anyone who thinks rationally on the subject. There's a huge difference between King George and the elected government of this sovereign nation, and it is easy to distinguish that difference.
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"Why should I agree to trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away?"
To be ignorant of actual history, and the REAL causes of the American Revolution is to insult anyone with an IQ above room temperature.
Oh, and just in case you don't feel like looking it up, what happened to the Weavers and the Branch Davidians is far more worthy of a revolution then the causes of the American Revolution.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Still, not paying taxes is against the law. Getting himself and his wife killed, along with others DOES NOT help the case against absurd taxes and big government. Nor does aligning himself with Randy Weaver.
Randy Weaver, while a nut himself, did not provoke the incident at Ruby Ridge. He was also aquitted of weapons charges due to entrapment. From what I recall, federal agents repeatedly asked him to sell them sawed off shotguns with barrel lengths less than 18 inches. He turned them down over and over until one day he caved in because he needed the money. Randy Weaver also claims that he left the barrels at a legal length (18 inches or better) and that the federal undercover agent he sold them to, reduced the length by another 3/8 of an inch.
Randy Weaver is just another person that believes our gov't is evil and chose to live out in the sticks to avoid them.
The write up at wikipedia conforms to other accounts I have read pretty accurately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's never necessary to steal a man's money by force.
You can steal it by guile or stealth...
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Weaver was acquitted because the jury decided he'd suffered enough because his wife had been killed. Evidence didn't have anything to do with it. The assumption that a jury followed the law is without merit.
The Waco raid was botched by the ATF (I do not like the ATF either) as Koresh could have, and should have, been taken out in the open. But that makes the Davidians no less guilty than Weaver. They still opened fire on uniformed agents. With military weapons. From an armed compound.
And what Weaver and Koresh did only serves to make it twice as hard on the law abiding people who must deal with the government. They didn't help a damned thing. It only served to further solidify the general public's opion that peole who own "riot guns", AR-15's, Barrett light 50's, and high capacity hand guns are all out to kill people and especially law enforcement officers. Just great for the cause of the law abiding gun owners. Brilliant tactics and strategy. Now, when the BATFE raids a law abiding gun owner, dealer, or manufacturer, and the law abiding citizen IS actually abused illegally and railroaded, no one says a damned thing, and the media never mentions it. The media has no reason to cover it, because the victim isn't a nut job and didn't kill a federal agent, and the general public, without any real news the media could have provided, merely assumes it was a raid executed against a nut job that went well.
The same thing is true of the anti tax people. The law is there, they ignore it, they flaunt it, they brag about it, then they kill someone and get killed themselves in the process. Which immediately makes the rest of the people protesting against taxes look like nut jobs. They also make law abiding gun owners look like nut jobs, as an added bonus.
The only attention they draw to their causes is the attention no one wants. The media only serves to make it worse.
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virgil... while I agree that no man represents me or my situation.. koresh does not represent my social or religious views nor does Weaver but.
The way the government handled those situations is far worse.. It does not represent the way I feel at all... It represents the opposite of the way I feel. I would have left those people alone or had a local sheriff handle it. The government was criminal...
I do not want to say that I was a part of that government. It did not represent me. I would have defended Koresh and Weaver against it if I had been given the chance and/or choice.
lazs
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I do not dispute that the government was wrong in the way they handled the situations. I agree, in both cases the government did a poor job. However, I also take into account the fact that in both cases the confrontation was forced, and both sides equally guilty.
At this point and time there is little, if anything, to be gained by forcing an armed confrontation with the government, or proposing a violent armed revolt. And MUCH to be LOST.
Intentionally breaking the law and forcing a violent armed confrontation is not going to gain anything. The only public awareness that will be gained will be when the media shows the result, and the general public sees it and decides that a bunch of nut jobs decided they were above the law and ended up getting people killed.
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so if you sit on your property and tell the govt to go away and leave you alone you are forcing the armed confrontation? In weaver and waco it was the govt the fired first.
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To say that the people in some of these instances have been portrayed as nutjobs is correct. Sad, but true.
To say that they have been accepted by the general public as such is a stretch.
I think that time has passed. Much to the dislike of the boys in black. Be it Tax ninjas, gun ninjas..or whatever banner they wish to be under at any particualr time. It`s all the same anyway.
More and more people are beginning to see through the smoke screen that worked so well for them through the past years. More and more are raising their voices about it.
Damage control is pretty well history for outrageous acts against the general population.
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Originally posted by john9001
so if you sit on your property and tell the govt to go away and leave you alone you are forcing the armed confrontation? In weaver and waco it was the govt the fired first.
If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.
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i guess you have never heard of negotiations.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The way I understand it, the forefathers set it up so that we the people will not be double, triple taxed (based on what England was doing to the colonists at the time) however we are constantly double, tripled, quadruple taxed all the time. Can anyone verify the first sentence?
A good friend of mine was left a little over $150K after his father died, the .gov came a knock'n demanding near 33% as a "gift tax". A family friend was left $15 million, the .gov took $7M off the top.. same BS, "gift tax".
Taxing money that's already been taxed seems just wrong, the threats made by the .gov if you don't pay are draconian at best.. they promise to audit, investigate, leaving one penniless, homeless and freedom-less... so just pay up.. dont be'a mess'n wit da .gov mafia, capishe?
Rather than the "Red Coats" throwing citizens in Debtors' prison for owing the crown, it's the Feds doing it for owing the clowns.
I applaud this guy, if I wasn't so lazy I'd go to where he is a open a lemonade stand to raise $$ to buy him more guns / ammo.
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Weaver was acquitted because the jury decided he'd suffered enough because his wife had been killed. Evidence didn't have anything to do with it. The assumption that a jury followed the law is without merit.
That would be incorrect.
At his trial in 1993, which occurred during the federal siege of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, Weaver faced an array of charges, including the original weapons violations as well as murder. He was represented by noted trial lawyer Gerry Spence. Spence successfully argued that Weaver acted in self-defense during the raid and was the victim of entrapment with respect to the weapons charge, winning Weaver's acquittal on all charges except missing his original court date and violation of his bail conditions, for which he was sentenced to 18 months and fined $10,000. He was credited with time served and spent an additional 4 months in prison. Harris was acquitted of all charges. The presiding judge severely criticized the prosecution for its late disclosure of evidence; specifically evidence that related to Horiuchi.
While jury members may have made comments after the trial about Randy Weaver having already suffered enough. Fact is, his attorney argued his case well enough to get him aquitted.
Do we not have the right to self defense even from the .gov? At Ruby Ridge federal agents had the shoot to kill order before they ever showed up on Randy Weaver's property.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.
Actually, you can in some instances. Arrest warrants, different than search warrants, must be endorsed; some are only good during daytime hours, other can be "served" at night, all can be served in public places anytime.
If a cop with a generic (daytime) warrant comes to your door at 9pm and 'asks' you to step outside.. you can tell him / her to have sex with themselves. Even during the day you have zero obligation to voluntarily step outside, and the police cant force entry based on an arrest warrant alone unless authorized.
Arrest warrants are a dime a dozen, every knucklehead who skips a court date gets one, and few agencies have the time / desire for warrant details because its a PITA... except the Feds.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.
the state has the obligation to enforce the laws of the society it serves. if a member of the society refuses to conform to laws of that society he must pay the consequence of his non conformity. I pay my taxes, my full taxes. I do not fudge the numbers in any way, not because I fear enforcement but because it is my duty as a beneficiary of this great society to carry my share of the load. in the example of people like the brown family we have a couple who owe the society over one million dollars. that means that the rest of us have had to take up the slack for them, I don't agree with this mentality and the government damned well better enforce the law and do so with extreme prejudice. time is life. if time is also money then they owe us either the money or their lives. shoot the bastards, shoot them twice.
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They don't owe anything to anybody. The government's just pissed that they didn't bend over and take the bellybutton raping like everyone else.
You still haven't replied about the farmer's revolts in our republic's early history. Or did the notion of them not being freeloaders ruin your socialistic ideals?
Regardless of your opinion of the laws, this is still a nation based on the rule of law. You don't get to decide you "don't like a law" or decide a "law doesn't exist", and just ignore it. Things don't work that way. If it did, what we'd have is anarchy.
Legality and Morality hardly ever coincide. With the federal government downright refusing to enforce some laws, why is it so important for us to obey them all?
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Here's the latest from CNN.
I think they got a winner on this article. These 2 people are now officially loony-tunes.
CNN's tone and demeanor seem slanted toward the "smear 'em" side of journalism. (duh)
Regards,
Sun
Tax dodgers taunt police from hilltop compound
POSTED: 1:52 p.m. EDT, June 21, 2007
PLAINFIELD, New Hampshire (AP) -- To avoid serving prison sentences for tax evasion, Ed Brown and his wife, Elaine, have locked themselves off from the world on their own terms.
From behind the 8-inch concrete walls of their 110-acre hilltop compound, the couple taunt police and SWAT teams and play to reporters and government-haters with references to past standoffs that turned deadly.
Residents want the Browns' circus to end before their small town along the Connecticut River becomes the next Ruby Ridge or Waco.
The Browns raised the specter of the first case, the 1992 shootout at an Idaho property called Ruby Ridge, by holding a news conference Monday with Randy Weaver, whose wife and child were killed there along with a deputy U.S. marshal.
Ed Brown warned authorities they wouldn't take him alive: "We either walk out of here free or we die." (Watch the SWAT team move in Video)
The Browns were sentenced in absentia to 63-month prison sentences in April, after being convicted of conspiring to evade taxes on nearly $1.9 million in Elaine Brown's income and of plotting to disguise large financial transactions.
Though they have refused to leave the compound, U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier insists he has no plans to raid it to make them serve their time and will instead seek a peaceful surrender.
Expert observers praise the authorities' hands-off approach, but patience is wearing thin for Plainfield's 2,400 residents. Town selectmen recently asked Monier to stop the influx of militiamen and other anti-government groups to the Browns' home and to bring the couple to justice.
"While we understand and support efforts to achieve a quiet resolution to this matter, the longer the Browns remain at large the better the chance, in our view, that our local police force will be involved in an incident with them or their group of supporters," the letter reads. "In short, we believe that it is time that definitive action be taken."
It's a sentiment echoed throughout the town.
"The people of Plainfield feel the whole thing has been mismanaged from the get-go," says Stephen Taylor, a Plainfield native who is state agriculture commissioner. "He's got this band of loonies up there right now. There's this constant traffic and helicopters overhead and everything. whoopee crazies."
The town south of bustling Lebanon has a "live-and-let-live" reputation that no one wants linked to the Browns, Taylor said.
"Everybody feels a tiny bit of embarrassment. This is what we're going to be known for?" Taylor said. "We don't want to be known for this."
The Browns' home on an isolated dirt roads includes a turret that offers a 360-degree view of the property and a driveway that is sometimes barricaded with SUVs.
Ed Brown, a retired exterminator, and his wife, a dentist, have bragged that the compound is self-sufficient and capable of running entirely on solar, wind and geothermal energies.
While saying repeatedly that he has no interest in harming the Browns or their supporters, Monier has not said what he does plan to do.
He says the massive law enforcement turnout on June 7, complete with roadblocks and planes, was for surveillance of the compound while agents seized the Lebanon building that housed Elaine Brown's dental practice.
But Ed Brown and many town residents believe it was a botched raid that apparently had to be called off when someone walking a dog stumbled onto federal agents in camouflage near the home.
"We were much better off before the federal government tried to take him into custody and it didn't go well," fumed town administrator Steve Halleran. "The fervor had died down. That was one of the things we were hoping, that people would go on to other things. But that's all by the wayside."
Weaver's news conference with the couple only added to local frustrations.
"That must've been a first. We've never really seen convicted felons just be able to hold press conferences," Halleran said. "There has to be a restriction of access to and from their property. If people can continue to visit them, to bring them supplies, with diesel fuel and food, they can stay there for a long time."....
Full Article:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/21/tax.evaders.ap/index.html
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"Ed Brown, a retired exterminator, and his wife, a dentist, have bragged that the compound is self-sufficient and capable of running entirely on solar, wind and geothermal energies."
well that proves they are a bunch of loonies.
:D
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Originally posted by john9001
"Ed Brown, a retired exterminator, and his wife, a dentist, have bragged that the compound is self-sufficient and capable of running entirely on solar, wind and geothermal energies."
well that proves they are a bunch of loonies.
:D
:lol
Regards,
Sun
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Yep.. where is the praise from the left about the "low carbon footprint" of the "compound"?
When it is someone the left wing media wants to smear it is always a "compound" even if it is a log cabin.
I think that it is good that the government has to go there and make it's case.
one way or the other. If they can get the sympathy of everyone who will then agree with storch... that we are the enemy... the people are the enemy of each other and the government is good... so be it.
If they can make their case by slaughtering everyone they can and throwing the rest in prison... well.. that proves something too.
Weaver lost a family because he didn't pay a $5 tax.. I think these people will die for a bigger tax debt but.. a tax in any case. No one knows why the people at Waco died... they could have died for not paying class three machine gun tax but it was never proved they even had machine guns.
The government is perfectly willing to kill you if you resist when they come to take your things and lock you up for not paying taxes if you have the termidity to resist.
lazs
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says Stephen Taylor, a Plainfield native who is state agriculture commissioner.
The voice of "the people". :aok
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Legality and Morality hardly ever coincide.
There's an assertion for freshman debaters.
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Originally posted by storch it is my duty as a beneficiary of this great society to carry my share of the load.[/B]
There's a refreshingly unselfish point of view.
:aok
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baaaaaa
high five!
baaaaaa
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Weaver lost a family because he didn't pay a $5 tax..
First time I have heard that, care to elaborate Lazs?
From all accounts I have seen, this is what started the process that led to the stand off at Ruby Ridge.
At the 1986 World Congress, a biker named Gus Magisono befriended Randy Weaver. In actuality, Magisono was undercover ATF informant Kenneth Faderley. Gus asked Randy to sell him some sawed-off shotguns. Initially, Randy refused, arguing that he could not afford to purchase the shotguns, but Magisono persisted. Magisono eventually agreed to provide the shotguns, along with instructions regarding the length he wanted. Magisono then purchased the guns back from Weaver, ensuring that Weaver had violated federal weapons laws. According to Magisono, the guns were sawed off 3/8th inch shorter than the legal minimum. Weaver denies cutting the barrels to below the legal length, insisting that Magisono further shortened the barrels to below the minimum legal overall length of 18 inches after purchase to create a violation.
The ATF confronted Weaver in June 1990, offering to dismiss the weapons charges in exchange for Randy's infiltration and information against the Aryan Nations. Randy refused, and subsequently notified the local Aryan Nations members of the offer and his refusal.
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Originally posted by Elfie
First time I have heard that, care to elaborate Lazs?
From all accounts I have seen, this is what started the process that led to the stand off at Ruby Ridge.
so first they tried to entrap him. then they tried to frame him.
then they tried to extort him.
And Feds and law enforcement wonder why the people have so little trust in them
A good chunk of them are more criminal particularly at the fderal level then the criminals they try to bust LOL
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Originally posted by Hap
There's an assertion for freshman debaters.
It's an assertion of a person who has studied history.
Your counter-assertion shows a person who has not.
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so first they tried to entrap him. then they tried to frame him.
then they tried to extort him.
Yeah, thats basically what happened.
Here's a link to an article about the Justice Department's investigation.
http://www.stormfront.org/ruby.htm
There is a link to the actual report in that article, but the link wasn't working for me.
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i been lising to george noory on coast to coast for the past few weeks while im working about this income tax..funny thing is..i only heard about it on there..none of my freind have till this week..lol
i agree with some taxes..i pay all my taxes..even know im being taxed for things that have had there taxes paid for over and over..like my mustang..its over 33 years old..it got taxed when it was paid for brand new.and it gets taxed every time its sold. and every time i buy plates and tabs for it...i think its totaly wrong to tax us for things that have had there taxes allready paid for in full..im allready being taxed on my income and food and land..let alone have to pay taxes on my rigs over and over..i dont agree with the browns totaly..but i can see why there fed up.. why do we have to pay taxes on things that were taxed allready and paid in full? .why does the goverment tax me on a car that has allready been taxed over and over till the end of its life?
cause of pure greed..imagine the money they make off all the sales of cars that are older than dog @#$% and been taxed every time its sold...the old model t..imagine how much they make off a car that has had its taxes paid for in full sence 1920ish..lol
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the tax for a sawed off shotgun (below 18") is $5 if you pass all the other paperwork. Weaver claimed that he measured well... essentialy... a $5 OR 3/8" mistake cost his family their lives.
Does anyone here feel safer and better that $5 tax dodge or a 17" shotgun are worth killing a family over? Does that seem like a just way for a government to act?
lazs
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the real crime at ruby ridge was the way the the clinton administration handled the aftermath. the lon horiuchi sniper that killed vicki weaver was actually promoted after the incident.
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Storch, unless my memory fails me, Ruby Ridge happened during the Bush I administration, although possibly the investigations may not have ended until after Clinton was sworn in.
Anyone else notice the Browns were charged with refusing to pay taxes on MILLIONS$ and trying to hide evidence of even more income? Sounds more like greed than principle to me. And again, I think the tax situation in this country is absolutely outrageous and intolerable.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Storch, unless my memory fails me, Ruby Ridge happened during the Bush I administration, although possibly the investigations may not have ended until after Clinton was sworn in.
Anyone else notice the Browns were charged with refusing to pay taxes on MILLIONS$ and trying to hide evidence of even more income? Sounds more like greed than principle to me. And again, I think the tax situation in this country is absolutely outrageous and intolerable.
You yourself have said that it is greed that makes this country great.
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august 1992 so yes it was bush 41
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You yourself have said that it is greed that makes this country great.
When?
More likely, if you look, you'll find where I've stated repeatedly greed is what will help bring about the downfall of the country.
Feel free to quote where I said greed makes this country great. Because I must have made a typo.
There's a big difference between greed and ambition, drive, or the pursuit of success.
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Originally posted by storch
august 1992 so yes it was bush 41
I don't know when the investigations actually ended. The event itself happened during the 1st Bush administration. I'm sure the investigations went on for 2-3 years or so.
In any event, both that operation and Waco were ill conceived and poorly executed. Inexcusably so. But then the BATFE never has been the pinnacle of brilliance and strategy. More like the prime example of heavy handed arrogance, ignorance, and overzealousness. It doesn't help that they've been able to drag the FBI and the U.S. Marshalls down to their level.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
When?
More likely, if you look, you'll find where I've stated repeatedly greed is what will help bring about the downfall of the country.
Feel free to quote where I said greed makes this country great. Because I must have made a typo.
There's a big difference between greed and ambition, drive, or the pursuit of success.
Hmm, might have been Holden then...
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Originally posted by lazs2
the tax for a sawed off shotgun (below 18") is $5 if you pass all the other paperwork. Weaver claimed that he measured well... essentialy... a $5 OR 3/8" mistake cost his family their lives.
Does anyone here feel safer and better that $5 tax dodge or a 17" shotgun are worth killing a family over? Does that seem like a just way for a government to act?
lazs
I didn't know there was a $5 fee associated with the paperwork for a sawed off shotgun.
Weaver also claimed that the undercover agent cut the barrels again to make them illegal. We will never know the truth of it. Yet when you consider how federal agents acted throughout the entire sequence of events it is at least possible that Weaver was telling the truth.
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Storch, unless my memory fails me, Ruby Ridge happened during the Bush I administration, although possibly the investigations may not have ended until after Clinton was sworn in.
The siege at Ruby Ridge started on August 21 1992, which as you stated, was during the administration of Bush Sr. It also puts most of the investigation time under the Clinton administration.
The US Senate held hearings in September 1995 and released a report in December of that same year.
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I know several things about government:
A. Never trust them. Time and time again, they have covered up evidence, lied, and cheated to get out of hot water.
B. All they really care about i$ your money. They tax your food, your income, your land, your cars, anything you buy, your mail, your license plates, and whatever else they find out you have. If you want to make money running a business, so do they. 'Hey, you need a business license.' 'Hey, pay your taxes on that gas.' 'Hey, your making money? guess what, we get some of it!'
C. They will do whatever it takes to steal your money. They will kill, lie, cheat, and steal anything and everything you have.
These people were right in what they done. From behind the 8-inch concrete walls of their 110-acre hilltop compound
So they got a layer of cinder blocks, big deal, MOST HOUSES DO. And 110 acres is not a lot of land, you can hardly graze 50 head on that, and you can't really put a millitary base on it, which is what they are acting like this place is. Heck, if someone charged me with these things, and then threatened to kill me, I'd do the same thing. This country was founded on the principle of 'by the people, of the people, for the people'. This government wouldn't know that if it bit them. If the founding fathers or even Abe Lincoln knew what has become of this once great country, they'd stand up in their coffins. This country has went to the wolves. Or, to not disgrace wolves, to the feds.
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From behind the 8-inch concrete walls of their 110-acre hilltop compound
wow 8 inches of concrete! what will the goverment do now? hehe.. i seen goverment footage on the history channel of a guy with one m-14 with a 20 round clip and tungsten filled bullets knock down a 4 brick thick wall..i about say about 20 to 30 inch thick brick wall with one clip of ammo..lol i love the spin the media puts on things .
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the government needs to convince us to think like storch... that they are not the enemy but that the enemy is every other citizen. That is the beauty of a tax that is complex.. everyone can be seen to get more... or get less.. or pay more or pay less than... everyone else.
everyone is your enemy.. they are all getting away with something and only the government can save you. Only the government can make sure you get your fair share of everyone elses stuff.
lazs
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What would anyone do without government to hold their hand and walk them through their own life? :cry
Thank you Government, taxes for things never used, bloated mismanagement, snail-paced bureaucracy, mindless political posturing, constitutional disloyalty, iron fisted repression of deviance! It's so glorious I can't hold back the joy :cry
More government, more Hillaries, more BS hand-wringing speeches, please!
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Originally posted by lazs2
the government needs to convince us to think like storch... that they are not the enemy but that the enemy is every other citizen. That is the beauty of a tax that is complex.. everyone can be seen to get more... or get less.. or pay more or pay less than... everyone else.
everyone is your enemy.. they are all getting away with something and only the government can save you. Only the government can make sure you get your fair share of everyone elses stuff.
lazs
:rofl just pay your taxes and learn spanish you'll be fine.
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The jig is up. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/04/tax.standoff/index.html)
Bravo to law enforcement for biding their time and not causing another ruby ridge like incident.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Hmm, might have been Holden then...
I never said that. I did quote Gordon Gecko a few times though.
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That most recent link claims they owed $1.9Million in taxes. That is a far cry from a $5 tax on a shotgun.
:confused:
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and there you have it, we all have a moral obligation to fund this society. only a sociopath thinks they have no responsibility in shouldering the load.
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Originally posted by storch
and there you have it, we all have a moral obligation to fund this society. only a sociopath thinks they have no responsibility in shouldering the load.
Hilarious. Link someone who doesn't like getting robbed to Sociopathy.
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With the way this ended, it will just fade into obscurity now...Only a few will remember what happened. Or why. In 5 years' time, if you ask someone about the Browns, All you will get is a blank stare.
However, if it had ended in a shootout, with Fed agents/troops storming the property, It would have been the Anti-gov't. camp's newest weapon in it's arsenal.
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Originally posted by storch
and there you have it, we all have a moral obligation to fund this society. only a sociopath thinks they have no responsibility in shouldering the load.
Why?
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Apparently, the US Marshalls snuck in as supporters.