Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wayout on June 24, 2007, 09:08:35 AM
-
Talked to my Uncle about the B-25. He was a squadron executive officer for the 498th Squadron (Falcon) of the 345th Bombardment Group (M) based in the Pacific. He joined the group when it was stationed at Biak. His impressions of the B-25 can be summed up with this quote "it was one hell of an airplane". These are a couple of his thoughts on the B-25. The 75mm canon wasn't well liked by the crews. It was hard to load, hard to aim, and almost impossible to hit anything. The worse part was in order to aim the gun they had to fly the plane along the trajectory of the shell making them an easier target for ground fire. He also added as an after thought that firing that canon was like driving a car real fast and slamming on the brakes. The recoil made it feel like you ran into a brick wall. After he joined the squadron, he couldn't remember how long after, the canon was removed and replaced with 2 additional 50cal machine guns. This gave the plane 12 forward firing machine guns. The recoil from firing all 12 at once would slow the plane by about 80mph. His prefered method of low level attack was to have 3 planes, wing tip to wing tip at tree top level firing all guns to keep the AA gunners heads down and drop para-bombs on the target. Most mission had fighter escort, usually P-38s, and he said it wasn't unusual to see a crippled P-38 tucked under the belly of a B-25 using the plane and it's guns for protection.
The war was a long time ago and my Uncle has never talked much about his war experences. I do know he lost two people very close to him. His brother was kill in a B-29 over japan and his best friend was killed in one of the last raids of the war, a death recorded by the bomb bay camera of my Uncles plane.
-
wats all this spam about?
-
to your Uncle Wayout. Interesting little read - ty.
Cheers,
asw
-
do you have any pictures of your Uncle's B-25? When we actually get the B-25 in game, maybe one of the skinners will make a skin of your uncle's bird.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Movie
SQUEAK SQUEAK
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Movie
wats all this spam about?
SQUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKK!
-
Originally posted by Movie
wats all this spam about?
*cough* noob *cough* squeaker *cough*
-
Nice to learn a little about the B-25:aok
Thanks, Wayout
and to Movie::rofl nice way to make you more hated then me
-
Nice post Wayout
-
From what your Uncle said and from what I have read previously, the cannon wasn't well liked in real-life.
That being said, I'm sure if they make a few versions of the B-25 for Aces High and one of them is the G or H with the 75mm cannon, it will be good for taking down ground targets in a few passes.
I'm hoping they make a B-25H model (Top turret forward, tail gunner position, 8 forward 50 cals / 10 if including top turret which can be locked into forward firing position and fired by pilot, and 75mm cannon) Maybe Hitech will introduce some parademo bombs into AH2 as well, who knows. Solid nose J would be sweet also.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1139_1182862535_b25h-3.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1139_1182862559_b25h-5.jpg)
A8
-
Nice thread.
I've also read about the field conversions of many of the 75mm equipped B-25's to mount additional .50's instead. I've also read that firing the earlier B-25's with field refitted 75mm's created a lot of stress on the B-25's airframe. Rivet holes began to oval out, and some airframes were retired with as few as 20 rounds fired by the 75mm.
I came across most of it while researching the A-26B-Block 5's that were field tested, which were also equipped with the 75mm. Experience with the B-25's and A-26 field testing seem to go a long way to reverse the Army Air Force's desire for a "flying cannon", and both the solid nose B-25's and A-26's instead were retrofitted, or fitted from the factory, with banks of .50's firing API rounds instead, which seemed to be far more effective than the single 75mm and a couple .50's proved to be, especially in anti-shipping and strafing ground targets.
But, I can't think of a single plane in AHII that is represented as a field refit, so I expect the B-25 to be presented pretty much as Pyro was once quoted as saying: ""I'd like to see the C, H, and J in that order. Whether all of those can make the next version will depend on how fast it goes to make the shapes."
* The C/D model would see many skins and SEA use, and maybe be seen in the MW arena. Not certain about time frame for EW use --- I believe the B would easily rate EW, not so sure about the C/D.
* The H would probably prove less than effective. I don't expect a 75mm mounted in a B-25H to be all useful in the LW Arena. With about 20 rounds, you'd only be able to take down about 10 town buildings or so (or similar) with the 75mm, plus 3,200 pound bomb load. It's speed and performance will make it an easy target in the air if enemy planes or Osties around, and it's slow reload times will hamper it in an Anti-GV role. 1 shot, maybe 2 at best, per pass will be a tough shot to make from a medium bomber.
The 75mm was historically and primarily used in anti-shipping vs Sampans, IIRC, so it does not have much of a role in a LW map. If you try to deack a field or drop a town with one, the plane's relatively slow speed and larger size will have it chewed up by other close ack.
* The J, if made, with the many forward .50's (8 to 14) may prove the most popular in LW. The J could carry up to (I think) 8 rockets underwing or some gunpods underwing, but I think the bomb load drops to 2,000 pounds to make up for wing ord and extra .50's (sources vary).
The original thread also hit on one other point. Wayout's Uncle enjoyed fighter escort and air superiority much of the time; a situation that will not come all that often in the LW arena. The plane saw very wide use in all theaters of WWII, and was well known for getting it's crew home with battle damage, but I don't see that translating well into the game (outside of SEA). I expect a few SEA events will be added or changed to use the B-25, and many skinners will produce B-25 models, but I don't see the plane doing particularly well in the LW arena. I don't see it getting much use in EW or MW either, simply due to the typical bomb load compared to other available planes in EW and MW for milkrunning.
-
All your points are valid, but you neglected the fact that some players fly planes they like in real-life. Not everyone grabs the plane with the greatest bomb load or strongest guns. So since the B-25 received the most votes from actual players, I think we'll see the B-25 in the air as much as you see the other US Medium B-26 presently. But then again, I've only been playing for 2 months so what the heck do I know :D
Avenger8
-
Originally posted by Avenger8
I think we'll see the B-25 in the air as much as you see the other US Medium B-26 presently.
Maybe for the first few weeks but I doubt it long term
-
Originally posted by Solar10
Maybe for the first few weeks but I doubt it long term
No. I think it will thrive, because every n00b who joins in, every squeaker and two-weeker will fly the B-25 RELIGEOUSLY. Because its the plane they know. Granted, they will dive bomb, and dweeb it up, try to launch from a CV, and beg for the "UB3R AFFLECK UPGR4D3", but it WILL be flown.
-
they better make it available to take off from CV without turning away from tower because thats what it did.
-
Great read- it's always so interesting to read of first hand accounts. I think sometimes it's easy to forget that at one time these planes were really flown to do the things we do for entertainment now.
One of the things I found very interesting about the B-25 was its use as a strafer in the Pacific theater. From my reading, they were frequently used to strafe enemy shipping or fields at very low level. With all that firepower in the nose, they would obviously be good at it, but I never really thought of using a level bomber in this role. Further, I read that some planes had the copilot seat removed to either make more room for another gun, or more ammo. Flying that plane single pilot must have been interesting.
-
Originally posted by Pannono
they better make it available to take off from CV without turning away from tower because thats what it did.
no
It
will
not
be
available
on
cv.
-
well thats gay, it took off from a CV in real life, no B-24 did.
-
Going back to a more interesing topic, it won't be a hangar queen. Why would you take a B-26, which can barely climb above 10k, can only carry 4k, but has the same guns (and half the engines) as a B24? Wouldn't 100% of bombers be B-24s? Only 75% of bombers are B-24s in this game :t
I see B26s quite often. The fact that folks even choose the 26 over the 24 means that the B-25 will be used often enough. If it was solely chosen based on performance we'd only have la7s, tempests, ar234s, and b-24s, nothing else in the game.
A lot of the lesser-performing planes are the more-popular ones. The B-25 will be popular, regardless of which model we get.
I know I'll use it when bombing quite a bit! It's better defended than the Ju88 I also use!
-
Originally posted by Pannono
they better make it available to take off from CV without turning away from tower because thats what it did. ...
...well thats gay, it took off from a CV in real life, no B-24 did.
I'm surprised it took 4 full days to get that one. You can be pretty certain that a lot of Country, Channel 200, and Forum talk will be along those lines for a couple weeks after release.
Exactly Sixteen early model B-25B Mitchell bombers flew off carrier decks for 1 raid on Tokyo. They had much of their armor plate removed, much of their gun- mounts removed (particularly the ventral turret which was removed) additional fuel loaded aboard.
I've seen nothing to indicate HTC is going to model a B-25B. (I've heard C/D, H, and J) I've seen no evidence that HTC has or will ever model "field conversions" or "modified" aircraft so you get what historically comes delivered from the factory. Doolittle's Raiders were not what was delivered from the factory. We also cannot expect to see any of Major Paul Irving "Pappy" Gunn's efforts in the game.
AFAIK, a B-25B could travel 2,000 miles with a 2,400 normal pound bomb load and only 1,300 miles with a maximum bomb load of 3,000 pounds. It was initially armed with 1 .30 caliber Browning machine gun in the nose and 4 .50 caliber Browning machine guns in top and bottom turrets. 120 B models were built and 119 were delivered to the USAAF (1 crashed en route).
The C/D model was a major upgrade. The G and H were ground strafer's. The J was the last production model before the Mitchell was replaced with the Invader. Which final maximum speed, range, climb rate, and service ceiling numbers will eventually get used in game I leave to speculation.
If we see the C/D, I expect it's usage (after a month or two of release) down in the same range as we see the B-26-B now, 1.5% more or less (probably a bit more than Marauder simply because it's new to the plane set). If we see a G, H, or J, I expect a little more use due to ground attack role, but that depends a lot on the ord options (and limits) it gets as well. But it's use will still be well below that seen by the B-24 and Lancs. I also expect to see a lot of skins produced for the plane (above average) and it's incorporation into SEA events.
I also expect to see a lot of complaints about what the B-25 can't do that is expected of it by many who voted for it: be it CV-launches or limitations of 75mm armed planes (if added at all). Some of what I've seen posted leads me to believe there are some misconceptions about the B-25. I'd have loved to see a poll of why players voted for the planes they did vote for.
-
Originally posted by tedrbr
120 B models were built and 119 were delivered to the USAAF (1 crashed en route).
lol thats not a good omen
-
Originally posted by Pannono
well thats gay, it took off from a CV in real life, no B-24 did.
No regular b25 ever took off from a cv.
List of mods that had to be made:
* Removal of the lower gun turret
* Installation of de-icers and anti-icers
* Steel blast plates mounted on the fuselage around the upper turret
* Removal of the liaison radio set
* Installation of three addition fuel tanks and support mounts in the bomb bay, crawl way and lower turret area to increase fuel capacity from 646 to 1,141 U.S. gallons
* Mock gun barrels installed in the tail cone, and
* Replacement of their Norden bombsights with a makeshift aiming sight.
-
Originally posted by Movie
wats all this spam about?
Trying to sound interresting ? :( Respect a man life at least.
I did not vote B25 (P39 was flown by the early 9GIAP) but its sounds like a nice town buster, like use bombs on the ack then finish the job with the guns. It would make a nice LVT/PT vulcher also :O I'll think it will see use on MA.
-
A B-25H (PBJ-H) had landed on a carrier and then taken off during WWII, of course this wasn't a combat mission though.
See PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War (Combat Aircraft # 40)
Flown exclusively by the US Marines, the PBJ was one of those rare examples of an air force type being procured by the navy due to its ability to do exactly the job that was required of it. Bought as a land-based patrol bomber for operations in the Atlantic and Pacific, the PBJ (Patrol, Bomber, North American) was kitted out to hunt down submarines as well as surface vessels. Identical to its air force counterpart, except for its ability to lay mines, deploy depth charges and launch torpedoes, some 706 PBJs were delivered to the Marine Corps from 1943-45. This book outlines the aircraft’s history and technology, and takes a closer look at the men who flew it.
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S5813
(and of course I am not promoting this sort of activity in Aces High II)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1139_1183080749_scan0002.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1139_1183080838_scan0003.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Avenger8
A B-25H (PBJ-H) had landed on a carrier and then taken off during WWII, of course this wasn't a combat mission though.
And if we had been forced to invade Japan (instead of the nooks), I imagine a lot of B-25's might have been transfered to the Navy and Marines for similar use, if it proved to be practical, as the USAAF was in full gear in replacing all the B-25's, B-26's, and A20's at the time with the A-26B and A-26C Invaders by war's end on VJ day. Medium bomber crews from Europe headed to the Pacific were all be retrained and put into Vaders for Pacific operations. The 'Vader's landing speed was just too high to try a similar CV landing that the PBJ did.
-
Mid 1945 markings. 498th Squadron (Falcon) of the 345th Bombardment Group (M)
(http://rockford.yi.org/graphics/498-2profile.jpg)
A replicia of his aircraft along with personal items from the war is on display at the Kalamazoo Air Museum, Kalamazoo Michigan.
Originally posted by tedrbr
The original thread also hit on one other point. Wayout's Uncle enjoyed fighter escort and air superiority much of the time; a situation that will not come all that often in the LW arena. The plane saw very wide use in all theaters of WWII, and was well known for getting it's crew home with battle damage, but I don't see that translating well into the game (outside of SEA). [/B]
He never saw an airborne Japanese aircraft. The few times Japanese fighters opposed a raid the P-38 pilots made sure they didn't get close to the bombers.
Every raid he was on was low level. They used para-frags against small targers like aircraft and small buildings. For larger targets, ships, hangers, large building they skip bombed. He said skip bombing, especially against ships, was a very effective way of putting a bomb on the target. It would be interesting to see if skip bombing could be moldeled into Aces High.
-
B-25 great dogfighter ;)
And bring back (from AW) Death stars.
The reason is simple. Fun is what it counts more + they had many gunners in reality.
If someone cant hit a death star (many gunners) b17 then stay far and look
for another target :)
-
Originally posted by HaDeSs
B-25 great dogfighter ;)
And bring back (from AW) Death stars.
The reason is simple. Fun is what it counts more + they had many gunners in reality.
If someone cant hit a death star (many gunners) b17 then stay far and look
for another target :)
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/th_thofficespace.gif) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1356)
Friends Don't Let Friends Use Shade Accounts
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/sick0019.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
-
lol that threadbomber site rocks !
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/1/noob.gif)
-
As to the B25...
I have yet to see mentioned (though scanned quickly) that there were two versions of the 75mm used. Yes, the first was cumbersome to use, since it was a modified 75mm pack howitzer crammed in the nose. There was a specific 75mm built for the nose (believe M/T13E4 designator) which was more compact and efficient, as well as additional recoil dampeners.
Second, the Marine Attack squadrons that used the 25 had the addition of a fuel tank that could be inserted into the bomb bay when needed for extended missions. Do NOT know if this will make the cut, but who knows.
Lastly, I fly 26's quite a bit, as CV killers. The smaller wingspan allows for a tighter three-ship drop, and the speed and guns are great (relative) for exit turns, unless you get gang-banged.
I see, and plan myself, on a great deal of 25 time. It will be a widowmaker at first (like the actual Marauder / 26 was), until YOU LEARN TO FLY IT. Too many people get disgusted too quickly when strappin on a new ship; need to get thrown from the horse a few times first.
PukinDog
-
Originally posted by Noir
Trying to sound interresting ? :( Respect a man life at least.
Ignore the troll. You have to understand, that's how they roll in the trailer park.
-
Anybody got an estimate on the B25s arrival?
-
Originally posted by PanzerIV
Anybody got an estimate on the B25s arrival?
I heard two weeks after CT is released.
-
Does anyone have a estimate on CTs arrival time?
-
Originally posted by PanzerIV
Does anyone have a estimate on CTs arrival time?
Two weeks before the B25 arrives.
-
14 days
-
who wants to make a squad with me i need some more good bobmber piolits besides me squad will take action once i get another computer
-
Originally posted by 64kills
who wants ta make uh squad wiff me ah need some mo' pimp-tight bomber pilots besides me squad will take action once ah git another geekbox Ya' dig?
What is sad is the translations makes more sense than his original comment.
ack-ack
-
awell, nobody here is serious enough to say August 8 or something.
-
i am august8th
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What is sad isdat the translationsss makes more sense than his original porblmmmmmmm eeeeeee
ack-ack
:D
-
Originally posted by 64kills
who wants to make a squad with me i need some more good bobmber piolits besides me squad will take action once i get another computer
We, Todd, Ed.
-
I see the B-25 is undergoing testing at HTC now.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1233149/L/
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What is sad is the translations makes more sense than his original comment.
Well, I learned something from it: I never realized Tourette Syndrome could manifest itself in an online text forum environment.
-
Originally posted by tedrbr
Well, I learned something from it: I never realized Tourette Syndrome could manifest itself in an online text forum environment.
:rofl :aok