Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: toonces3 on June 26, 2007, 02:13:51 AM
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Hey all.
I'm totally new to the 109. I've been reading alot on the history of the eastern front of WW2 and it got me all jazzed up to fly german and russian for a change.
Ok, so I'm gonna stick with german, and with the 109. So far, in the MA, I've flown the G14 and (one sortie) the K4. I like the G14 because it, simply, has killing power. I usually take the gondolas and all that 20mm suits my style well because my aim sucks. So, if I can land a few 20mm hits I can kill someone while, with 50 cal, I'm 'Mr. Assist'.
What I HATE about the 109 is the compression. I'm used to the 190 where I can put the plane to 500 and not worry but the 109 is unrecoverable almost over 450 or so. It's tough to b n z when 450 is a practical limit. Plus, with the gondolas, you're really limiting your top end speed. I find that they don't limit me in attack mode if Im high because I'm scrubbing speed anyway, but once I'm on the deck, they're a horrible liability if I need to run...
which leads me to another problem. While Soda's page calls the G14 a 'rocket sled' I don't find that it accelerates for crap. I thought I could get away from a typhy on deck tonight, and got my butt handed to me by some scrub no less, because I just couldn't get my 'e' up fast enough.
OK, so the point of the thread is:
Yes I've read Soda's page a few times, but what's the deal with the 109? If I want to get proficient in the MA with a 109, which is the one to play with, and what loadout do you prefer?
I realize the gondolas are a touchy issue, and I'd like to hear comments on what the pros carry.
Thanks guys, and if this has been beat to death already, you can just link me instead.
See ya,
Toonces
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G2 or G6. stay away from the gondies in the G14, there only good for buff huntin, IMO. they limit maneuverability otherwise. dont expect to BnZ to well in them, but they TnB quite well. just stick with one till you get it down, then experiment with others.
NOT
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First off I think Soda's pages refers the 109 G10 as the 'rocket sled', not the G14. A long while back the G10 was renamed to the K4. Nevermind the reasons why for now (you cans search this thread for the discussions), but what you need to know is the G10 is the K4, the K4 is the G10 - exactly the same except for the 30mm cannon. The G10 had a 20/30mm option, the K4 only has the 30mm option.
Also note, the G14, is not the G10. Nor is the G14 'better' (eg faster, more powerful) than the K4, even if it has a bigger number. Think of the G14 as a slightly heavier G2 or G6 with better WEP power and has gondola option.
And as for gondolas. DONT take em, unless your buff hunting. The G14 with 30mm spinner and 2 Gondies makes a good intercepter due to its good climb rate and heavy hitting power. They really sap your speed, acceleration, climb, and turn rates. For a fighter engagement, the difference the firepower makes up, is more than lost in performance.
Why 109s? Im not a full-time 109 geek, but i have spent several tours in them getting to 'know my enemy' as such. The later models dont make good turn-fighters, the earlier models dont have impressive climb rates compared to the spit16s or Ki84s etc etc. The early models are best used as close-in scrappers where there good relative turn rates and good acceleration makes them good knife-fighters. The later models its best to use them as E-Fighters (and its in this role the 109 has always excelled in - compared to its time/year contemporaries). They don't make good BnZ fighters as they have bad high-speed performance, and gun packages are harder to use in these high-speed snap-shots. Use it as an E fighter. Keep the fights in the vertical, and keep them heading upwards. Works well against most a/c except Spit16s and Ki84s.
If you want to fly 109s. Fly the G2 as a starter aircraft. Then move to the G14, then move into the K4. Unless you like the turning style of fighting, then the F4 is your kitty. The K4's 30mm 'tater-gun' does take LOTS of getting used to. But practice will make perfect. And one hit is enough to shred most a/c. Also dont use the MGs only fire the tatergun.
109s aint as "EZ-Mode" to fly as say a spit 16 is, but its much more of a challenge and much much much more rewarding.
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I don't find the gondolas on the G-14 to be too bad at all.
I've had decent success with them. You just need to keep an eye on what's around you and not get suckered into a bad position.
It will still turn with the gondolas and they enable a powerful snap-shot.
All in all, the 3 x 20mm G-14 is a viable alternative for those unable to hit with the MK 108 cannon.
-Check out this thread- (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207635)
The G-14 and K4 are both excellent turners when you know how to fly them, so take your time with them and just be aware that it's not a 'point and shoot' plane, it requires careful throttle and control surface control.
Most of the time, if I'm coming in high or i'm in a tight turning fight I'm rarely above 50% throttle. I use shorts bursts of power in climbs to get the upper hand, and ease off in flat-turns.
Flaps are your friend in the 109, get aquainted with them.
:aok
In my opinion, the 109 K-4 gives you the best surviabilty of all of the Luftwaffe rides, without restricting you to a BnZ roll. You can get right down and dirty in a K4 and still have fun with it.
The G2 and G6 are both excellent fun, too.
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If there is one plane that really makes roping people easy its the later 109s!
R O P E
Learn what the word means and practise it to perfection and learn what the vertical power can do for you and you become a real killa in them!
I used to be a die hard A8 pilot, but the last 2 tours ive expurrimented alot with the g14 and im in love. Its not an easy mode plane, but neither is the A8 but thats what draws me to those planes i guess.
My other tips are:
Practise aiming that 30mm and leave the godies at home.
DONT use tracers even if its hard in the beginning.
DONT fire the MGs, they only give your position away.. when that 30mm lands its already too late for the other guy to react. I often land without having fired a single mg round.
The view is limited, but in time you learn to guesstimate were he has gone when you "lose" him. When that happens he knows you are there so feel free to try snapshots with the mgs but save your cannon.
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Hi,
the 109´s dont get into compression!!
Thats a misunderstanding, they only get a heavy elevator, this you can overcome by dissabling the "combat trim" and trimming up by hand.
If the "combat trim"(auto trim) is enabled the game engine trim the plane more down as faster it get, as result the 109 end in a un-recoverable dive.
If you trim to neutral, the plane will move alone, without the help of the stick.
In R/L its not easy to create a elevator behaviour that provide a exact and smooth behaviour at slow speed and good manouverability at highspeed at same time. The Spitfire for example was known to have a rather to light elevator at slow to medium speeds, also the 190 could get stalled by easy at slow to medium speed.
The 109 elevator was very good at slow to medium speed and at highspeed the pilot could trim the complete horizontal stabilisator(most other WWII planes couldnt get trimmed at highspeed, cause only the elevator got used to trim, so the pilot had to trim against the windstream).
If you wear the gunpods on the G14 you need to fly more like in a P51 or 190D, but as you say the hit probability is much better and so the gun power is dewasting.
I like the G6 with gunpods, it still turn suprising good, but you shouldnt get below the enemy.
btw, if you wanna turn tight in a 109G or K, you need to reduce power(at least dissable WEP), in a downward turn i often cut the throttle full down, while the plane dont stop to accelerate, then i can turn inside most other planes. With the gunpods i often can get a nice snapshot kill then.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Another A8 stick here, but as the majority of my squad prefers the 109 over the 190, I have been logging more seat time in the Mess.
Fly the F in base defense and furball.
Learn the G2.
Never take Gondies unless you are purpose upping for buffs.
If you like the G 14, go offline with the K 4 and learn the spud gun. It's a lethal airplane.
Fight your 109 in the verticle at all times possible, watch your ammo and practice, practice, practice. A very rewarding plane when you get proficient in it.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
I don't find the gondolas on the G-14 to be too bad at all.
Not so... The gondolas add massive amounts of weight, even after the ammo is expended. You can check this with the E6B. They add massive drag as well. Back just before the 109s were redone I was flying in Fire Over Malta and I and another wingman took gondolas, nobody else in our flight did. They throttled WAAAAY back and still walked away from us (we were at full throttle). We couldn't catch up to them and eventually became a separate flight of 2. We couldn't climb anywhere near them, catch up to them, anything.
Gondies = BAD. If you're going anywhere with any fighters don't take them.
It's far far better to takes 1x20mm than 3x20mm, because the performance loss in 109s isn't worth the firepower.
With the 1x20mm you might go RTB because of ammo, but you'll RTB. With gondies you won't run out but you'll die.
For starters I suggest the 109G-2, not only because it's slightly more nimble than later versions, but because it has a 200-round option on its 20mm nose gun. Many of us are still waiting for the same option on the G-6 and G-14. The extra ammo helps when you're learning to conserve your ammo
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It depends.
If you're confident that you can manage yourself well enough to stay out of ugly furballs and maintain strict engagement discipline, then the tradeoff for some speed and climb for almost triple the firepower is sometimes not that bad.
I know a few guys who've had considerable success by flying with gunpods. Twoface immediately comes to mind, though he's a very old hand way back in AH1, and doesn't fly anymore.
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If you're going to fly a G-2 or G-6 then you already have decided to throw away any speed advantage and would be better off in a 109F-4. The F dominates all other 109's in knife fights. If you want to just B&Z then you should get the K-4. There is no reason (except for novelty) for flying any of the 109G's as long as the F and K are available.
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Conflicting views here, for sure.
Perhaps Krusty and Viking are right....
I tend to agree with Kweassa on this one, if you pay attention the firepower is worth the trade-off.
Still turns better than the 190s with gondolas on, but with comparable fire-power.
I've not noticed a fatal loss in climb with gondolas on either.
I always usually take gondolas on the G2... turns well and has great fire-power.
You just need to know when to disengage.
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Interestingly, the G-2 with gondolas is very close to the C205 in regards to climb rate & maximum speed, yet still turns better.
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There is not one single answer to what is best regarding the gunpod issue. It all comes down to how you like to fly and fight.
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According to gonzoville, http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g2&p2=c205 the 109g2 should have a noticable advantage over the 205 in speed and climb. Climb rate should be pegged at the "4" in the climb meter until 10k. I don't think I've pegged the climb meter with gondies on the G-2, but I have to go and do some testing tonight.
All I know is that compared to "without them," they are a terrible burden. Just try flying with a group of non-gondie planes when you have 'em, and you will regret having 'em.
I disagree with Viking's comment, though. All 109s can turn fairly well. Sure, the E-4 turns the tightest, and the F-4 turns best out of the "post BOB" set. However, all after the F still turn fairly close to each other, and not much wider than the F itself. 29 extra feet radius between F-4 and G2, and only 43 extra feet radius between F-4 and G-6. There are reasons to take the G-2, the G-14, and the K-4. I will agree that the only reason to take the G-6 is for novelty reasons
:D :rofl
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The difference is that the F-4 can out turn the Spit16 and La-7. The G-2 cannot (all things being equal). The E-4 is just too underpowered, mostly because of the short 3 minute WEP. You'd be better off in a Zeke.
I'm not saying the G-2 is a bad plane, it is not. Even the G-6 is a great fighter. I'm just saying the F-4/K-4 is better at what they do in the MA.
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...Drumroll...
Search
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great posts guys!
Spatula- that explains alot...I assumed (always dangerous) that the G10 on Soda's page was the G14 in game. I need to re-read that whole section now.
One of the best tidbits I've already seen here is how you all turn the 109 throttled back...I assumed wrongly (again) that it was better to be power on. WEP? Heck yeah! I'll have to practice some turns at 50% and see what that feels like.
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E-4 has 10 minutes of WEP, as do all 109 variants. The only thing to have less than 5 minutes of WEP in aces high is the Ki84 (I believe it has 3 mins)
The F-4 cannot out turn a spit16 if flaps are up. If flaps are used it still has serious drawbacks, and only turns 12 feet tighter (almost identical). It can out turn an la7 if no flaps are used, but again is almost equal if full flaps are used.
Don't get me wrong, I do think the 109F4 has a better turn capability, but not because it out-turns 2 specific planes. Plus, most fights aren't simply just low-speed stall fights (so pure turning radius isn't the only factor).
For me it's a toss up for the F-4 and G-2 when you want a better turning 109. The extra horsepower really helps the G-2, even if it's just hauling its own arse around in a circle. On the other hand it doesn't lose much turn radius over the F-4. It depends on if you want just a little more turn or just a little more horsepower. IMO both are better turn fighters than their later brothers.
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excellent link xanthur- thanks much!
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Btw the 109F-4 we have is NOT early war 1941 plane. 109F with 1.42 ata boost was introduced at the same time as 109G-2 in LATE 1942.
What we have here is a performance gap. We have a 1939 bf 109E and a 1942 Bf 109F-4. Bf 109F-4 should be detuned to 1941 standards (just like what HTC did to spitfire V :aok ) because right now we virtually have no 1941 Bf 109.
If 109F-4 is detuned to 1941 standards...
* NO wep
* Same top speed at FTH (~380mph), but sea level speed will be 317 mph
* Tnitial climb rate will be slightly less than ~3500 fpm, that's still hundreds more fpm compare to its contemporary... the spit V
:aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
E-4 has 10 minutes of WEP, as do all 109 variants. The only thing to have less than 5 minutes of WEP in aces high is the Ki84 (I believe it has 3 mins)
I just tested it and actually we’re both wrong. I seem to remember a 3 minute WEP in AH1, but I guess HTC upped the WEP time to 5 minutes in AH2 (which I think is generous). Still that is half the time of the other 109’s, and going flat out you’ll still only be 3 mph faster than an A6M5 on the deck. A6M5 also being better in all other regimes of flight and range and guns. The Frank I believe has a 1 minute WEP.
Originally posted by Krusty
The F-4 cannot out turn a spit16 if flaps are up. If flaps are used it still has serious drawbacks, and only turns 12 feet tighter (almost identical). It can out turn an la7 if no flaps are used, but again is almost equal if full flaps are used.
You have to use flaps when stall-fighting 109’s. Not using them makes no sense. Spitfires rarely use flaps though, nor do La-7’s, but when you meet that lone Spit or La with a good stick the F-4 will allow you to prevail with relative ease, while the G-2 needs a better pilot to even out the Spit’s advantages. Not needing a better pilot makes the F-4 the better plane IMHO.
Originally posted by Krusty
Don't get me wrong, I do think the 109F4 has a better turn capability, but not because it out-turns 2 specific planes. Plus, most fights aren't simply just low-speed stall fights (so pure turning radius isn't the only factor).
Both the 109F-4 and G-2 are very good fighters. Relative performance is what matters and comparing the 109’s to the two most prolific and dangerous opponents in the LW arenas is IMHO the only sound way of measuring performance. If you fly either the F-4 or the G-2 you have to fight yourself out of trouble, you can’t run. That means that you will eventually find yourself on the deck with one or more opponents trying to stop you from disengaging. The F-4 has proven itself to me time and time again is such situations, the low speed stability and turning capabilities are astounding.
Originally posted by Krusty
For me it's a toss up for the F-4 and G-2 when you want a better turning 109. The extra horsepower really helps the G-2, even if it's just hauling its own arse around in a circle. On the other hand it doesn't lose much turn radius over the F-4. It depends on if you want just a little more turn or just a little more horsepower. IMO both are better turn fighters than their later brothers.
As I said earlier relative performance is the important statistic. The G-2 gains 8 mph on the deck over the F-4, but in reality it gains nothing. It is still slower than the Spit, and the Spit still out-accelerates it, and the Spit’s pilot will still not let you go as long as he sees that nice “–“ symbol telling him he’s closing on you. You’ll end up having to turn at some point and engage a superior climbing, accelerating and turning plane. The F-4 allows you to engage with only two of those disadvantages and the F-4’s strength (turning) plays well into the common Spit pilot’s turn and burn style of combat allowing you to negate his other advantages. Good sticks in La-7 loves to saddle up on you. The 109F-4 allows you to deny the La that opportunity, while the G-2 does not. E fighting an La is nearly impossible in both 109’s given the La’s massive advantages in all regimes of flight (assuming a competent La pilot), and stall-fighting an La is very dangerous even in the F-4 if the La pilot knows how to use the throttle and flaps. As with the Spit; a 109F-4 will win a turn fight given equal and competent pilots, the G-2 will not. That said all non-perked rides are at a serious disadvantage against the La-7, its performance is utterly amazing.
1K3 … leave my F-4 alone you little… or else! ;)
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In my opinion 109s suck. They cant turn nor they cant climb only good thing is the firepower and their armor.
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Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....
109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.
They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)
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Originally posted by Movie
In my opinion 109s suck. They cant turn nor they cant climb only good thing is the firepower and their armor.
Your opinion is noted. Not worth the pixels it used, but it is noted.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....
109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.
They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)
What's easy mode?
Bronk
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Originally posted by toonces3
One of the best tidbits I've already seen here is how you all turn the 109 throttled back...I assumed wrongly (again) that it was better to be power on. WEP? Heck yeah! I'll have to practice some turns at 50% and see what that feels like.
All aircraft require some form of throttle control to get the best out of em. The 109s, espcially the K4 really requires a lot of time spent on the throttle as its very easy to build up too much speed in it. Button off as your nose points below the horizon, power up as it goes high is a good start. Sometimes to get your nose over the very top fast its best to chop throttle and use a notch or two of flaps. Knowing when to apply the extreme pulling power of the engine, and when to button it off makes all the difference between success and death. You have to recognise the times when full power is actually hurting your maneuvering intentions and learn to power back to do what you actually intend.
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Originally posted by Bronk
What's easy mode?
Bronk
Most spits and LA7
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Most spits and LA7
Don't forget HurriIIC, more "easy" than a La7
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Niki falls in same category too
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Ohh I thought I was missing some . command .
:rolleyes:
Bronk
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Try the 109F.
While the firepower isn't that great, it is good and centered in a knifefight, and this aircraft is very maneuverable! One of the toughest buggers to catch in my Spit :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....
109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.
They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)
i keep whooping them in a slow bellybutton F4F with pilots saying "Im the best" and all that crp. I'm like any 1 else?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....
109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.
They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)
p.s. Dude I have a life...im not on it 24/7 as it appears you do
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So, you base your knowledge of a 109's ability to climb and turn on the fact that you never fly them? Not the best argument there, li'l pup. :D
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What's with this steady flow of show-offs and 'im beter than you and im not a loser blalalalala' crap? Movie, dude, just. go home.
Note: here comes a likely, completely rediculous, off-topic response in the form of a young child's insult.
ready,
GO!
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i am home wtf :rofl
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<
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Ask Platano, Husky, anyone I fly with. I think I SUCK in EVERY plane. Especially the Bf-109. So I want to make it perfectly clear what I think of YOUR skills when I say this: "Look me up. We'll DA, and Ill show you that even a wildly incompetent pilot in the Bf-109 is still something to be feared."
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Originally posted by Platano
<
no u dont nor will u ever do
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Oooooh-kaaaaay..
(IMO) This has gone long enough. I'd like to ask all the folks that posted (helpfully or not) to not feed the troll(s), because this was a nice (decent?) thread up until this point. Let's just let it die.
That'd my request. Take it or leave it. We don't want things to get worse. Thank you, good day.
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Originally posted by Movie
no u dont nor will u ever do
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/p00ntimenint.jpg)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Oooooh-kaaaaay..
(IMO) This has gone long enough. I'd like to ask all the folks that posted (helpfully or not) to not feed the troll(s), because this was a nice (decent?) thread up until this point. Let's just let it die.
That'd my request. Take it or leave it. We don't want things to get worse. Thank you, good day.
i must agree getting lame
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I was including you as well
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Originally posted by Platano
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/p00ntimenint.jpg)
Yep, pretty much. Platano taught me to fly the Bf-109. He might not have taugh me much, as I suck, but, he is an EXCELLENT stick.
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Serenity Im tired of hearing all this crap about u sucking... Im taking ur arse to the TA wether u like it or not.....ur gonna learn that plane once and for all. :D :aok
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Most spits and LA7
As 51 ,109 or 190, when you have some experience it level the difference.
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if the la7, spit stick is a noob yes.. not so much if they are equally matched in skill... the easy-mode plane pilot will then win most fights.
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Originally posted by Platano
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/p00ntimenint.jpg)
:huh
Nice pic btw.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
if the la7, spit stick is a noob yes.. not so much if they are equally matched in skill... the easy-mode plane pilot will then win most fights.
Just compare : http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109k4&p2=p51d&p3=la7&p4=spit16
each plane has strength in a different area ,it the pilot job to use the right strength depending of the opposing plane
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in ah the la7 and spixteen are noob rides and are used by those who wants to get the most kills with the minimum ammount of effort. as training planes they are also useless as they teach you nothing but point and shoot skills.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
as training planes they are also useless as they teach you nothing but point and shoot skills.
Strongly disagree. Spit16 is very good training plane for newbs. La7 is bad because it learn to run mostly.
Spit is useless as training plane for pilots how has "above average" skill.
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Say that to Shane !
I had a look to your stats, you have a lot more kills on the La7 or spitXVI than death,so you know very well how to deal with such planes even with "inferior" ride
No need to stigmatise people flying those planes,see oleg's post
btw you fly to much !are you bachelor again ?
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Well they usually have to be hunted down and they think that speed can get them outa trouble after they have picked or porked.
hehe no, not a batchelor again. i mostly fly during work hours :D
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personaly I take a liking to the 109E-4 myself. VERY underrated plane and a danged potent killing machine in the right hands! I downed 2 F4U-1C's the other day in a pure 2v1 match up where they had just about every advantage, it has great maneuverability and is relatively fast with good acceleration I deffinately advise giving it a try! good luck!!:aok :aok :aok :aok
Have Fun/Good Hunting,
~Balance1
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The 109E-4 is considered quite slow, being as slow as the Spit Mk.I and only marginally faster than the Hurr Mk.I.
It does not accelerate overly fast compared to any post-1943 aircraft, nor does it outclimb much, either.
It has a small turning circle, but if the enemy is in a plane with a stronger engine they only have to get you slow and then climb over you and roll back down to kill you.
It is a fun plane to fly at times, but your victory over 2 chogs at once was a fluke. Any halfway-decent chog pilot can kill a 109E.
If you can get your opponent to slow down into a stall fight, you will have a fun time killing them. Otherwise your chances are slim that you'll get a kill shot.
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oh yeah it deffinitely was a fluke, but they were both pretty capable pilots too, which surprised me greatly(Roscoroo and 68Hawks) considering that they kicked my butt most other times lol. I just think its a VERY fun plane to fly aand I've personally had great luck with it(by luck I mean fun and some kills but mainly fun) also its all black skin kicks some serious prettythang.
just more of my $.02,
~Balance1
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Originally posted by Movie
no u dont nor will u ever do
:lol :rofl
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Originally posted by Platano
Serenity Im tired of hearing all this crap about u sucking... Im taking ur arse to the TA wether u like it or not.....ur gonna learn that plane once and for all. :D :aok
lol. Sure! Id say today, but damn, the one day I have off, im already busy... :(
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I like the G-6