Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on June 26, 2007, 04:01:54 AM
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Now here's a goodie that rocks the world of archeologists. I hope our Norsemen can fill us in more.
Norwegian Archeologists are really scratching their heads, after an excavation in Sarpsborg (Östfold), where they found 3 skeletons of INCAS. 2 adults and 1 child in a 1000 year old grave.
There are no tales of Incas wandering out that far they say.
Thoughts? Mine immedialtely was that since we do have some documents of Vikings wandering to America, they met up and were brought to Norway.
Vinlands saga tells us of Vikings settling for a winter in N-America and ruins were found in Newfoundland (Although some of our experts put their money on near where N.Y. is today). Maybe the missions were many more, - after all, everything is ever registered. And since they were buried (They were found at an ancient Church) they may have been visitors in the good sense.
Very interesting anyway.
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Thoughts? Mine immedialtely was that since we do have some documents of Vikings wandering to America, they met up and were brought to Norway.
Thoughts? Pretty strange considering the Vikings would have landed on the east coast of North America and the Inca's are from the Andes Mountains and west coast of South America.
Wikipedia has a map showing where the Incan Empire was in South America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire
I'm thinking someone might have had a major brain spasm?
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I know, - the Vikings would have had to be very far south, and the Incas on the "wrong" side as well, but they're still in the grave you see ... In Norway.
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Originally posted by Angus
I know, - the Vikings would have had to be very far south, and the Incas on the "wrong" side as well, but they're still in the grave you see ... In Norway.
It's very unlikely that they are Incas. What evidence is there that these remains are in fact Incan? DNA analysis could probably tell us one way or another. Has this been done yet?
Not saying this is impossible, since imo nothing is impossible. I just need to see some sort of evidence. Until then, I still think someone has had a major brain spasm. :)
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Its early days of the investigation yet, but more info is bound to come pretty soon. There has been speculations before that the Vikings not only did north america, but also went far down into south america.
Vikings On Tour ft Big Daddy Axe Killa and The Vandals.
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Sure they didn't mean Aztecs?
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Thor Heyerdahl was right, eh?
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I think this finding proves the little known theory that Norwegians are, in fact, descended from Incas.
It explains why Norwegians as a race tend to be short, dark skinned, brown eyed with black hair.
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Yes Thor was right!
I grew up some 20 miles from where a Viking Sword was found in a farmers field.(Ulen Mn) It was of course and probably still is a big argument about it. Fake, real, you name it. Fact remains that it, and a wealth of other evidence points to Vikings here in the middle of the country. Viking style mooring stones have been found near streams & rivers all up & down northern Minnesota.
I believe that they made the trip in reverse that I always dreamed about making. From Hudson's bay up the Nelson river to Lake Winnipeg. Then up the Red river to Fargo ND. From here a multitude of small rivers and streams lead east and south into the Minnesota lake region. Including Ulen Mn, the Minnesota river is a short portage which leads right by Kensington Mn.
I think they were stuck here in mid continent and they were looking for a way back to the East Coast. I think they misjudged the size of the landmass. I also think that the way they came was horrific enough that they would not go back that way. Who knows what they lived through to get to here.
When Lewis and Clark arrived in Mandan North Dakota they heard of a tribe of pale skinned blue eyed Indians. Possible that the last survivors of the Viking expedition ended up marrying into the local tribes? Food for thought for sure.
Info on the Kensington Runestone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone
Not much available on the Viking Sword.
http://www.answers.com/topic/ulen-sword
About Mooring stones
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf132/sf132p01.htm
Very good article describeing all of the above here.
http://www.pelicanrapidschamber.com/historyhappenedhere/myth_of_the_mooring_stones.htm
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we are all decended from one one mexican couple named maria and jesus.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
we are all decended from one one mexican couple named maria and jesus.
lazs
actually you are a black man with poor hygiene and bad skin.
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This is pretty simple, really:
The Inca Nazca lines in Peru
(http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/nazca/nazca-lines1.gif)
Plus the Chariots of the Gods
(http://www.allfantasyart.com/aliens/twoaliens.jpg)
Equals ancient Incas in Norway.
So, after a long trip to Peru, these two aliens hit the O-
club after landing. They get all liquored up and offer to take the bartender and his family on a joyride. The bartender, realizing the no Inca has ever been allowed within 100 yards of a ship thinks this is his chance at greatness and accepts immediately.
They all load up and go flying around earth. They are near Norway when the aliens start to sober up and realize they have violated just about every rule in the Alien Space Pilot Flight Operations Manual. Realizing that if they dump the Incas in Norway no one will ever know, they land and boot the poor Incas out into a foreign land.
The Incas can't speak Norsk, so the secret is safe. It turns out the Incas get sick from lutefisk and die though.
The Vikings, realizing that these Incas simply came out of the sky, figure they must be divine, so they bury them in church and worship them.
Any other questions?
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What lead to the manifestation of them being Incas is actually a genetic failiure in the skulls, only found in and originating from the Peruvian people.
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Originally posted by Toad
Equals ancient Incas in Norway.
So, after a long trip to Peru, these two aliens hit the O-
club after landing. They get all liquored up and offer to take the bartender and his family on a joyride. The bartender, realizing the no Inca has ever been allowed within 100 yards of a ship thinks this is his chance at greatness and accepts immediately.
They all load up and go flying around earth. They are near Norway when the aliens start to sober up and realize they have violated just about every rule in the Alien Space Pilot Flight Operations Manual. Realizing that if they dump the Incas in Norway no one will ever know, they land and boot the poor Incas out into a foreign land.
The Incas can't speak Norsk, so the secret is safe. It turns out the Incas get sick from lutefisk and die though.
The Vikings, realizing that these Incas simply came out of the sky, figure they must be divine, so they bury them in church and worship them.
Any other questions?
When's the movie come in out, Steven Speilberg and Mel Gibson
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Nilsen....get on this one as soon as you can, I'll start re-writing the history books!
68ROX
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Hmmm...
(http://www.infoperu.com/pics/raymi2002/0772inca.jpg)
(http://www.bunad-magasinet.no/getfile.php/285801.732.bqautdsyds/Samer2.jpg%22%22)
(http://www.imageshop.no/images/images_wm/fi0417wm.jpg)
(http://www.samer.no/2006/magga.jpg)
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hmm, the only thing photos prove is that Incas have considerably better fashion designers
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They dont have to stay warm in the winter, but yes, they look better. The sami folks can get bent for all i care.
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Don't like the Sami Nilsen?
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Dont really care about them. They gimme some good meat but thats about it.
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Originally posted by Whisky58
I think this finding proves the little known theory that Norwegians are, in fact, descended from Incas.
It explains why Norwegians as a race tend to be short, dark skinned, brown eyed with black hair.
:lol
I'm glad i read the posts because i was gonna write the same thing.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Dont really care about them. They gimme some good meat but thats about it.
Cannibal.
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Originally posted by Whisky58
I think this finding proves the little known theory that Norwegians are, in fact, descended from Incas.
It explains why Norwegians as a race tend to be short, dark skinned, brown eyed with black hair.
:rofl
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That's just it. The Sami (old tribal folk that lived here before my Germanic ancestors moved here) are short, have dark-ish skin, brown eyes, black hair, no tolerance to alcohol and likes to play with big knifes. Coincidence? I THINK NOT! ;)
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Well I would think that people tended to wander all over the world. I have read of a Greek explorer that supposedly went all the way around present day England and even went out as far as Iceland from there before heading back. So I would not think it was impossible for the Norse people or anyone else to travel all over the world. There is even a book out detailing a Chinese voyage that went all around North and South America as well. I haven't read it yet but I picked it up in a Barnes and Noble on one of my trips when I wanted something to read on the flights.
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antonio banderas went all the way from lebanon to scandanavia and killed gredel much to the shame of the norsemen who immediately went into shock and became the collective nilsen.
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Originally posted by Angus
What lead to the manifestation of them being Incas is actually a genetic failiure in the skulls, only found in and originating from the Peruvian people.
DNA tests need to be done.
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I guess they're at it.
Anyway, IMHO the incident is absolutely possible. Bear in mind that i.e. the Sagas and other tales were always met with sceptism, and then they were manifested when they were backed up with archeological findings.
The Vikings were told to have been in Istanbul, - it was well established when runes were found scribbled inside mosques. (Halfdan var her).
Same goes with America, - Vínland. Ruins and other artifacts found.
Then there is Greenland and the mystery as well where the population went, - or did it die out. One theory is the Canaries, and actually there are suspicious ruins there....
In my surroundings, there is the scenery of our most famous saga, - Njáls-Saga. While almost considered as a novel, it seems to hold water, and all checks and excavations seem to support the tale. One artifact recovered from excavations on a historical site (battleground) is traced from the huns, - while the book mentions a weapon loot captured in a pirate vs pirate fight in the baltic!
Those guys were all over the place. Deep into Russia, down along the African coast, crossing the N-Atlantic, all over the Med, - and these are the things we know for sure.
So, Incas add quite something to it, and the whole issue of archeology perhaps has interesting news to come!!!!
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Irish Monks landed in America before any Norsemen! :p
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Don't worry boys. Dirk Pitt will be along shortly to solve the mystery, find the lost treasure, and party with your women.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Don't worry boys. Dirk Pitt will be along shortly to solve the mystery, find the lost treasure, and party with your women.
but will he manage to blame it all on freemasons while hes at it?
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Seems to be fairly common that archeologists are discovering ancient people traveled much further than previously thought. We're hearing more about how the Chinese got a lot further around the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean all the time.
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I'm amazed that a thousand year old corpse can be identified as Incan.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Seems to be fairly common that archeologists are discovering ancient people traveled much further than previously thought. We're hearing more about how the Chinese got a lot further around the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean all the time.
and why would anyone be suprised...people have always gone as far as there technology will allow them, if they have ships capable of surviving an ocean passage and some idea of navigation then theres no reason why they wouldn't.
vikings are easiest to confirm simply because we know quite a bit about them, they were the most recent, and they had a fairly easy trip across (in terms of land to land)
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'm amazed that a thousand year old corpse can be identified as Incan.
That and the fact that the Vikings would have had to sail across to North America, then south all the way around South America just to get to the Incan Empire.
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The time frame is all wrong. Eric the Red began his voyage about the year 1000 a.d. Leif Ericson discovered Greenland some years after that. The Viking settlers that followed him to Greenland eventually embarked in their longship on a voyage that would discover America.
That places all of these voyages within the eleventh century. Even allowing for the fact that some of these Viking settlers may have begun a voyage of exploration down the eastern coast of North America immediately upon settling in Newfoundland, they would not have contacted the Incas themselves. The Inca Empire wasn't born until the year 1438 a.d.
It is possible that the skeletons may have been those of Indian tribes that were the precursors of the Incas. Pre-Columbian trade routes traversed the Andes Mountains and wandered north through Central America. IF Viking explorers did indeed sail into the Gulf of Mexico they might have come into contact with these early Indians and transported some of them back to Scandinavia.
Maybe.
I think it highly unlikely that any Viking longship could have made the long journey down the coast of South America and safely navigated around the Horn, made its way to Peru, picked up some Indians, and returned all the long way to Scandinavia following the same path by whichy they had come.
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I think it highly unlikely that any Viking longship could have made the long journey down the coast of South America and safely navigated around the Horn, made its way to Peru, picked up some Indians, and returned all the long way to Scandinavia following the same path by whichy they had come.
Thats what I'm thinking too. The other part of your post though, about sailing into the Gulf of Mexico, that seems much more plausible.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The time frame is all wrong. Eric the Red began his voyage about the year 1000 a.d. Leif Ericson discovered Greenland some years after that. The Viking settlers that followed him to Greenland eventually embarked in their longship on a voyage that would discover America.
That places all of these voyages within the eleventh century. Even allowing for the fact that some of these Viking settlers may have begun a voyage of exploration down the eastern coast of North America immediately upon settling in Newfoundland, they would not have contacted the Incas themselves. The Inca Empire wasn't born until the year 1438 a.d.
It is possible that the skeletons may have been those of Indian tribes that were the precursors of the Incas. Pre-Columbian trade routes traversed the Andes Mountains and wandered north through Central America. IF Viking explorers did indeed sail into the Gulf of Mexico they might have come into contact with these early Indians and transported some of them back to Scandinavia.
Maybe.
I think it highly unlikely that any Viking longship could have made the long journey down the coast of South America and safely navigated around the Horn, made its way to Peru, picked up some Indians, and returned all the long way to Scandinavia following the same path by whichy they had come.
Little correction. Leifur Eiríksson was in America in 1000, Greenland had been discovered before and was being settled. Discovered by his father, Eric the red, a troublemaking Norseman that had left Norway well before and lived for some time on a farm in the W of Iceland that he settled (original) himself and named "Eiríksstađir". (Guess what that means)
Anyway, the skeletons share a unique genetic failiure to the Incas and thereby their ancestors. So, if this gets manifested my money is on the Incas being well away from home when meeting those straying Vikings, maybe somewhere near..Texas or Mexico?
BTW, Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, they are related if gone back long enough. But how far?
Then another Speculation. If Vikings would have been on the Pacific side, wouldn't they rather have been over the Northern route? The year 1000 was in a warm period you see.
The Horn would have been much tougher, and actually, many ships were originally lost between Iceland and Greenland. Those are open boats rather than ships, but very fast and nimble. But the sea between Iceland and Greenland has two passing currents, and the sea is mostly rough, even when the weather is good. I was there fishing in January and was amazed how rough it was, yeaccchhh!!!
And the Celts, - they had already settled in Iceland before the Vikings came. Seem to have been sailing an incredible lot!
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There are many things that we are just now finding out about the time periods within the last two thousand years or so. Our ancestors were much more capable than what people give them credit for and its beginning to show up in the historical records. I honestly would not be surprised if the Vikings had gone all through the Gulf of Mexico and even as far as the northern part of South America. After all they did travel extensively through the Mediterranean and into North Africa some.
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It was aliens. You know it; admit it. We are not alone!
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Originally posted by Angus
If Vikings would have been on the Pacific side, wouldn't they rather have been over the Northern route? The year 1000 was in a warm period you see.
did the vikings create gobal warming in that time?
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soooo... the scientists don't really know? At least they know all about global climate change.
lazs
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Angus, thanks for the correction. I had the century of exploration right but couldn't remember the years of discovery of Greenland and North America.
I don't believe the Vikings would have used the northern route, if by that you mean north of Canada. While the world was warmer in the eleventh century, I don't believe it was warm enough to have melted the Arctic ice pack sufficiently for them to pass through it safely.
Another possibility might be that, having sailed into the Gulf of Mexico, they landed somewhere in Central America to repair their boats and resupply. Having done so, they might, might mind you, have crossed the Isthmus of Panama and journeyed south along the coast in Indian vessels until they reached Peru. But there will probably never be any way to know for certain.
Regards, Shuckins
P.S.: Oh, by the way, the possibility of Vikings sailing into the Gulf of Mexico and making contact with the Indian civilizations there might explain some of the legends of white-skinned gods that were part of Aztec mythology.
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Hello again:
"Another possibility might be that, having sailed into the Gulf of Mexico, they landed somewhere in Central America to repair their boats and resupply. Having done so, they might, might mind you, have crossed the Isthmus of Panama and journeyed south along the coast in Indian vessels until they reached Peru. But there will probably never be any way to know for certain.
Regards, Shuckins"
Very much thinking the same. The idea of the northern route came because that in that warm period, the glaciers up here were actually smaller than today - hence a question about the polar ice. It is a relatively easy route if there is space to sail on.
However, I absolutely follow the speculation of a "meet-up" in central america. After all, aouldn't the Incas or people from their origin have wandered as far as the Yukatan or further up? Nothing to stop them really.
Absolutely interesting stuff!
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However, I absolutely follow the speculation of a "meet-up" in central america. After all, aouldn't the Incas or people from their origin have wandered as far as the Yukatan or further up? Nothing to stop them really.
Nothing to stop them except the Mayans and Aztecs and who knows how many other tribes in between, not to mention the terrain itself. It would be a difficult journey for sure. :)
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Everyone knows it was ETI that transported them. Angus is just scared that MIB might show up at his door if he told us what really happened.
P.S. I bet Angus owns a copy of Behold a Pale Horse.:D
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Yes Thor was right!
I grew up some 20 miles from where a Viking Sword was found in a farmers field.(Ulen Mn) It was of course and probably still is a big argument about it. Fake, real, you name it. Fact remains that it, and a wealth of other evidence points to Vikings here in the middle of the country. Viking style mooring stones have been found near streams & rivers all up & down northern Minnesota.
I believe that they made the trip in reverse that I always dreamed about making. From Hudson's bay up the Nelson river to Lake Winnipeg. Then up the Red river to Fargo ND. From here a multitude of small rivers and streams lead east and south into the Minnesota lake region. Including Ulen Mn, the Minnesota river is a short portage which leads right by Kensington Mn.
I think they were stuck here in mid continent and they were looking for a way back to the East Coast. I think they misjudged the size of the landmass. I also think that the way they came was horrific enough that they would not go back that way. Who knows what they lived through to get to here.
When Lewis and Clark arrived in Mandan North Dakota they heard of a tribe of pale skinned blue eyed Indians. Possible that the last survivors of the Viking expedition ended up marrying into the local tribes? Food for thought for sure.
Info on the Kensington Runestone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone
Not much available on the Viking Sword.
http://www.answers.com/topic/ulen-sword
About Mooring stones
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf132/sf132p01.htm
Very good article describeing all of the above here.
http://www.pelicanrapidschamber.com/historyhappenedhere/myth_of_the_mooring_stones.htm
I think this explains it. (http://www.vikingkittens.com/)
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lol 73 :D
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I'm feeling too lazy right now to look it up, but I remember a relatively recent Discovery or History Channel program about Egyptian mummys being found with residue of Coca leaves in their tombs. This opens the possibility that ancient civilizations in South America were trading with the Egyptians.
So, what of the possibility that instead of Vikings whisking away the Incan ancestors . . . they traveled there on their own, perhaps attempting to re-establish or maintain old trade routes?
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Originally posted by E25280
I'm feeling too lazy right now to look it up, but I remember a relatively recent Discovery or History Channel program about Egyptian mummys being found with residue of Coca leaves in their tombs. This opens the possibility that ancient civilizations in South America were trading with the Egyptians.
So, what of the possibility that instead of Vikings whisking away the Incan ancestors . . . they traveled there on their own, perhaps attempting to re-establish or maintain old trade routes?
I'm not so sure about that.....
Europeans at least tended to look at the natives in North/South America as mere savages. Europeans tended to exploit the natives whenever it was feasible.
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Originally posted by Angus
I know, - the Vikings would have had to be very far south, and the Incas on the "wrong" side as well, but they're still in the grave you see ... In Norway.
Maybe Aztec's, or Olmecs, Zapotecs, or evem Mextics.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Nothing to stop them except the Mayans and Aztecs and who knows how many other tribes in between, not to mention the terrain itself. It would be a difficult journey for sure. :)
2 speculations:
1. What was the cultural distribution in the area at the time? After all, this is before the Incan empire.
2. Is this genetic failiure so absolutely unique to the Incas?
(guess it is)
What remains is that those skeletons were found in Norway. Somehow those peple met up with Norsemen and were brought to Norway. That means that either they were on the Atlantic side, or the Norsemen were on the pacific side.
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It's funny, you find Incas buried in Norway and say that Vikings traveled to Peru.
I would say, instead, that the Incas traveled to Norway. :p
Now if someone found Vikings buried in Machu Pichu....
:D
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Machu Picchu isn't old enough. It was constructed around the middle of the fifteenth century.
It is far more likely that the Vikings, the world's preeminent sailors in the eleventh century, traveled to the Gulf of Mexico and returned, than it is that the Incas, who are NOT known to have been a seafaring race, traveled to Norway.
The presence of the Aztecs and the Mayas in Central America would not have been an impediment to the northward wanderings of the Incas. Pre-Columbian Indians in both North and South America traveled many thousands of miles to conduct trade with other tribes and civilizations. It is very possible that some Incan traders traveled into Central America to trade with the Indians there, and met the long-wandering Viking explorers.
Maybe.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by kamilyun
It's funny, you find Incas buried in Norway and say that Vikings traveled to Peru.
I would say, instead, that the Incas traveled to Norway. :p
Now if someone found Vikings buried in Machu Pichu....
:D
not likely because if the vikings had travelled into south america the natives would have killed them, ground them up bones and all into sausage and consumed them. the natives would have been sorry later though as they would have died of indigestion.
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Does this mean they're gonna have to change the lyrics to Immigrant Song?
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Originally posted by storch
not likely because if the vikings had travelled into south america the natives would have killed them, ground them up bones and all into sausage and consumed them. the natives would have been sorry later though as they would have died of indigestion.
i think they would kick some serious inca ass
incas were just a bunch of cross-dressing trannie ladymen with as much oompf as a bunch of nuns
VIKINGS KICKS ASS!
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You have to remember, a very very small band of Europeans with armor conquered everything in sight. To the point the Aztec leader offered him a room full of gold if he'd leave. The Spanish had no problems overawing the native tribes, neither would the vikings.
While the vikings may lose a man here & there to constant sniping arrow fire from concealment. Most tribes would simply evaporate into the forest and wait for them to leave. Like the Spanish, they were armored!
A bunch of guys in loincloths with primitive bows and stone hammers are going to go toe to toe with guys with chainmail, Helmets, shields, swords and war axes? Remember the natives had virtual no metal anything until they started trading with the white man.
So its stone arrow heads and hammers, a few 4" stone knives vs 3' swords and War Axes.
ROFLMAO
Sorry, no contest, vikings win.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
You have to remember, a very very small band of Europeans with armor conquered everything in sight. To the point the Aztec leader offered him a room full of gold if he'd leave. The Spanish had no problems overawing the native tribes, neither would the vikings.
While the vikings may lose a man here & there to constant sniping arrow fire from concealment. Most tribes would simply evaporate into the forest and wait for them to leave. Like the Spanish, they were armored!
A bunch of guys in loincloths with primitive bows and stone hammers are going to go toe to toe with guys with chainmail, Helmets, shields, swords and war axes? Remember the natives had virtual no metal anything until they started trading with the white man.
So its stone arrow heads and hammers, a few 4" stone knives vs 3' swords and War Axes.
ROFLMAO
Sorry, no contest, vikings win.
one could easily understand why the spaniards with their horses and metal armor coupled with aztec expectations concerning the arrival of quetzalcoatl set up the mighty meso-american empire for subjugation.
the vikqueens would have arrived in their gucci inspired kayaks with their long and frilly blond hair looking like an alberto Vo5 commercial. hmmm the incas would have made sausage of them for sure.
my theory is the incas killed them vikqueens and ate them prompting the need to invent pepto-bismal tout-suite.
in their rage at having been subjected to the previously unknown condition of indigestion they took the vikqueen kayak back to vikqueen land to punish the flamboyant and ill tasting invaders.
upon arrival in those fetid and squalid lands, seeing the frolicking vikqueens dancing and prancing the mighty incas laughed themselves to death and were thus buried by the grateful vikqueens.
harald the flit was recorded as having stated "at leasth we got our boat back".
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Reread your history Ghost. Cortez had a LOT of help from Native American tribes in Mexico who were enemies of the Aztecs. There were literally millions of Indians living in Mexico at that time. Without their help, he couldn't have conquered the Aztecs. The warlike Aztecs were awed by Spanish weaponry and horses only briefly. The firearms of that period were inaccurate, had short range, and took a long time to reload. If Cortez had had to rely on just his own men, he would have been overwhelmed rather quickly.
Pizarro arrived in Peru at a time when the Inca Empire was in a state of civil war. He exploited the situation by siding with rebels bent on overthrowing the Incan ruler. Without the aid of the rebels, Pizarro probably could not have conquered the Inca Empire.
Neither the Aztecs nor the Incas were ignorant, cowardly savages who would have been easily overawed by the Spanish.
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No matter what you think about what the ancestors of the incas would have done to the visiting vikings somewhere maybe not in the inca ancestor homelands, - the fact still remains, - inca bodies buried on a christian spot in Norway.
In a window of time, where the Norse were, hands down, the greatest Seamen and navigators in the world.
In a window of time, where it is absoluely established that Vikings were already in N-America, in Istanbul, deep inside Russia, settling in Greenland, and also exploring the coasts of Africa!
If this finding is waterproof, I put my money on the Incas sailing the high seas in a longboat.
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Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?
I think so. At least things got confsed and it improved his position because of it.
BTW, in an open mediaval combat, the Spanish would have been swamped by the Aztecs.
But how were things some 500 years before?
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What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?
It has been widely believed that the Aztec Emperor Moctezuma II initially believed the landing of Hernán Cortés in 1519 to be Quetzalcoatl's return. This has been questioned by many ethnohistorians (e.g. Matthew Restall 2001) who argue that the Quetzalcoatl-Cortés connection is asserted in no documents created independently of post-Conquest Spanish influence, and that there is little proof of a pre-Hispanic belief in Quetzalcoatl's return. Most documents expounding this theory are of entirely Spanish origin, such as Cortés's letters to Charles V of Spain, in which Cortés goes to great pains to present the naďve gullibility of the Mexicans in general as a great aid in his conquest of Mexico.
Much of the idea of Cortés being seen as a deity can be traced back to the Florentine Codex written down some 50 years after the conquest. In the codex's description of the first meeting between Moctezuma and Cortés, the Aztec ruler is described as giving a prepared speech in classical oratorial Nahuatl, a speech which, as described verbatim in the codex (written by Sahagún's, Tlatelolcan informants who were probably not eyewitnesses of the meeting), included such prostrate declarations of divine or near-divine admiration as,
"You have graciously come on earth, you have graciously approached your water, your high place of Mexico, you have come down to your mat, your throne, which I have briefly kept for you, I who used to keep it for you,"
and,
"You have graciously arrived, you have known pain, you have known weariness, now come on earth, take your rest, enter into your palace, rest your limbs; may our lords come on earth."
Subtleties in, and an imperfect scholarly understanding of, high Nahuatl rhetorical style make the exact intent of these comments tricky to ascertain, but Restall argues that Moctezuma politely offering his throne to Cortés (if indeed he did ever give the speech as reported) may well have been meant as the exactly opposite of what it was taken to mean: politeness in Aztec culture was a way to assert dominance and show superiority. This speech, which has been widely referred to, has been a factor in the widespread belief that Moctezuma was addressing Cortés as the returning god Quetzalcoatl.
So I guess it's debatable whether or not Moctezuma thought Cortez was a god. Since the Spaniards destroyed virtually all records during their conquest, we'll never know for sure.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.
Hernando de Soto
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.
Well Storch beat me to it. There have been several artifacts found from the Spanish in central Alabama and some people have narrowed down the site for a battle that the Spanish had with a Creek Indian tribe down to three sites. Unfortunately all three sites frequently flood (when we actually get rain) and its possible that any and all items that could have been found may have washed away.
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the fact still remains, - inca bodies buried on a christian spot in Norway.
I'll wait for more evidence before I jump on this bandwagon if you don't mind. ;)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I'm not so sure about that.....
Europeans at least tended to look at the natives in North/South America as mere savages. Europeans tended to exploit the natives whenever it was feasible.
The Norsemen were not Europeans, nor did they behave like Europeans. Some would argue that the Norsemen sometimes were worse, but for the most part they were peaceful traders and settlers. “Viking” is not actually a name for the Norse people, but more of a “label” placed on those that went on raiding parties. To “go viking” or “he’s going viking” etc.; the meaning of the word to the Norsemen is closely the same as what “pirate” means to us now.
Originally posted by Angus
Then another Speculation. If Vikings would have been on the Pacific side, wouldn't they rather have been over the Northern route? The year 1000 was in a warm period you see.
The Horn would have been much tougher, and actually, many ships were originally lost between Iceland and Greenland. Those are open boats rather than ships, but very fast and nimble.
Only the smaller raiding (war) ships were open, flat-bottomed and nimble to allow for quick beaching (to unload troops). The really big Norse longboats used for trade and exploration were much more sea-capable ships that were taller and had a deck.
http://www.travel-images.com/sweden36.jpg
(http://vikings.fantasyland.info/drakkar.gif)
(http://perso.orange.fr/groenland-disko/norvege-lofoten/images/Borg%20drakkar%20b.jpg)
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Not all Europeans treated the natives of North and South America as savages.
The French settlers in Canada often intermarried with them and lived with them. Both groups profitted from the fur trade. The coureurs de bois roamed the rivers and streams of Canada in pursuit of trade and helped tie together and blend the two cultures.
As a result, when the Seven Years War broke out in North America, the tribes of Canada largely sided with the French.
After the end of this conflict, the British government passed the Proclamation of 1763 which was intended to keep settlers from encroaching on Indian land in the Ohio River Valley. The fast growing English colonies resented this because they felt that they were being hemmed in along the coast. All land was already owned or being developed, so poor settlers and new immigrants pushed through the passes of the Appalachians in defiance of the British government.
However, the fact remains, the British government did make an attempt to safeguard Indian claims. It had less success in the 13 colonies than it did in Canada.
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Nice, Viking!
They were also remarkably good at navigation, and travels i.e. between Iceland and Norway were much more common in the year 1000 than some 200-400 years later. Norway back then was really quite something.
BTW, 1000 years ago, a guy from the neighbourhood went to Istanbul and served for the Sultan. "Vćringi". Just like that.
And in that time, the most travelled woman in the world had in her log a winter in America, living both in Norway and Iceland, and then travelling down to Rome to see the Pope!
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News update.
A Danish built, (brand-new) Viking ship is now starting a 1.900 km Journey from Roskilde to Dublin.
While this seems like nice and easy and near to coast, the route is not that nice.
Much nicer along the coast of America.
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My apologies to anyone I skipped but are we ignoring the possibility of Incan seafaring exploration?
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Has been mentioned, but at the time the Vikings were hands down the explorers of the world as well as already in America.
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Originally posted by AKIron
My apologies to anyone I skipped but are we ignoring the possibility of Incan seafaring exploration?
The Incas weren't exactly noted for being seafarers. Not saying it isn't possible. Just wasn't one of their strong suits like it was for the Vikings.
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Originally posted by Angus
Has been mentioned, but at the time the Vikings were hands down the explorers of the world as well as already in America.
Some Chinese might disagree with you Angus.
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Angus,
The viking from Norway who went to Istanbul a thousand years ago to serve in the Varangian Guard of the Sultan....?
Are you referring to Harald Hardraada? If so, he served in the Varangian Guard of the Christian Emperor of Constantinople, which wasn't known as Istanbul....at least not at that time.
What woman were you talking about asa the mostly widely traveled in the world?
Regards, Shuckins
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The man in question was "Kolskeggur Hámundarson" from the region of Fljótshlíđ, some couple of miles away. He left the country after very dramatic events in the 10th and 11th century.
The lady was Guđríđur Ţorbjarnardóttir. She lived 3 years in America, and was the first known mother of a child from caucasian origin. However, steady scruffles with the natives lead to them leaving.
But there were many more travels known of, and presumably many many more not known of.
Fascinating stuff.
BTW, she is my ancestor. Born in 980, an my generation from her is the 26th ;)
(Oh, the family tree goes further, muhahaha)
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Linkie:
http://www.fva.is/~vinland/english/englishindex.html
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Originally posted by Angus
BTW, she is my ancestor. Born in 980, an my generation from her is the 26th ;)
(Oh, the family tree goes further, muhahaha)
How did you trace so far? Here in Sweden it is almost impossible to trace further back than 14-15th century. Unless you are a royal.
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We eat the royals for breakfast :D
(Oh, actually no, I'm one of them)
It is possible because of unique data available from the Saga times. Things registered survived to this day. I think that the fact that we never had any particular land warfare helped somewhat, as well as the effort of some historians of old.
Then the whole data was gathered for some genetic research, - the genepool was very "clean" for a very long time, and not overly big.
(well, you have some French fishermen and Danish Gentry floating about :D etc etc)
The firm (DECODE) is now busy linking all sorts of diseases and failiures to genes, - quite a thing in the medical world.
Anyway, a sideproject was the opening of the database (limited) to the public. So, once you have your keyword, you can trace yourself back to almost anybody of old fame, - i.e. how you are related to this and that one.
I am a descendant of Guđríđur Ţorbjarnardóttir, however only related to Kolskeggur through his grandfather. (He is registered in the books as Helgi Hámundarson, however referred to as Kolskeggur in Njáls-Saga, - the mother of all books as we say!)
He actually travelled to Istanbul as a Vćringi, then returned and settled in Norway untill his death.
Seems to have been a very regular transport into russia and down to the med in those days, as well as some winters spent in America.
BTW, in one of the most famous fight in Njáls-Saga, 3 Brothers against some 30 who ambushed them, Gunnar Hámundarson benefitted from a very good defensive point and a good bow. The brothers slew 14 of the enemy, and the rest fled, while one of the brothers fell.
The skeletons along with other artifacts were discovered late in the 19th century, including a bowring (for the finger not to be hurt) with a carved-in picture of deer. Origin: The huns, who made the finest bows in the world at the time. Apparantly it came from a loot that was caught in a Viking vs Pirate engagement in the Baltic, by Gunnr himself.
So, they were all over the place, absolutely interesting stuff!
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Around the year 800, a Welsh prince, so far down his line of heirs that he knew would inherit little land, asked his father for a ship instead so he could go out and find his own fortune. The King granted his wish, and within a year the prince and his small crew set off and were never seen or heard from again.
In the early 1800's, land surveyors were mapping what is now the state of Missouri when they came across a tribe of local Indians. As usual, they expected to have language problems when asking for directions and questions about local lands, but the very fair skinned natives had no problems communicating with the surveyor.
One of the surveyers was Welsh, and immediately noticed that their language was half Welsh and half local native.
Also:
In the early 1700's, settlers in New Hampshire and Maine found what they called "Indian Rock Houses". Scientists in the late 1970's confirmed that the architecture of these stone dwellings were indeed NOT North American Indian, but were Minoan.
The Minoans were a culture that thrived in the central Mediteranian around 1,000 BC.
As for DeSoto:
Hernando DeSoto was the first European to set foot in Hot Springs, AR. His men enjoyed the mountains and hot springs so much they stayed for six months.
DeSoto and his men wandered throughout Arkansas for many months mapping and exploring the area before Hernando died (possibly of malaria from mosquito bites in the bayous of south central Arkansas) and DeSoto was "buried at sea" in the Mississippi River, south of what is now Memphis.
68ROX
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Originally posted by Angus
...
Then the whole data was gathered for some genetic research, - the genepool was very "clean" for a very long time...
Iceland == land of teh clones !
back to the c++ nightmare I'm supposed to cleanup
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Originally posted by Angus
BTW, 1000 years ago, a guy from the neighbourhood went to Istanbul and served for the Sultan. "Vćringi". Just like that.
That’s pretty cool! Istanbul was known as Constantinople back then, and was for a period captured by Swedish Vikings who came down from Russia (they called it Miklagard (The Great City)). They got a ransom from the Sultan for not sacking Constantinople and journeyed on to Baghdad. Many Swedish/Rus Vikings would later work as mercenaries for the Sultan.
Interestingly the Vikings were directly responsible for creating the nations of Russia (they founded the first Russian state near Kiev, and the “Rus” in “Russia” comes from the Slavic word for Viking), France through the conquest/absorption of Normandy, England since they were in turn conquered by the Normans, Ireland through conquest and settlement (The Irish capital Dublin was founded by Vikings) and Iceland through settlement.
The Viking Timeline
789 - Vikings begin their attacks on England.
800 - The Oseberg Viking longship is buried about this time
840 - Viking settlers found the city of Dublin in Ireland.
844 - A Viking raid on Seville is repulsed.
860 - Rus Vikings attack Constantinople (Istanbul).
862 - Novgorod in Russia is founded by the Rus Viking, Ulrich.
866 - Danish Vikings establish a kingdom in York, England.
871 - Alfred the Great becomes king of Wessex; the Danish advance is halted in England.
872 - Harald I gains control of Norway.
879 - Rurik establishes Kiev as the center of the Kievan Rus' domains.
886 - Alfred divides England with the Danes under the Danelaw pact.
900 - The Vikings raid along the Mediterranean coast.
911 - The Viking chief Rollo is granted land by the Franks and founds Normandy in France.
941 - Rus Vikings attack Constantinople (Istanbul).
981 - Viking leader Erik the Red discovers Greenland.
986 - Viking ships sail in Newfoundland waters.
991 - Ćthelred II pays the first Danegeld ransom to stop Danish attacks on England.
995 - Olav I conquers Norway and proclaims it a Christian kingdom.
1000 - Christianity reaches Greenland and Iceland.
1000 - Leif Eriksson, son of Erik the Red, explores the coast of North America.
1000 - Olav I dies; Norway is ruled by the Danes.
1002 - Brian Boru defeats the Norse and becomes the king of Ireland.
1010 - Viking explorer Thorfinn Karlsefni attempts to found a settlement in North America.
1013 - The Danes conquer England; Ćthelred flees to Normandy.
1015 - Vikings abandon the Vinland settlement on the coast of North America.
1016 - Olav II regains Norway from the Danes.
1016 - The Danes under Knut (Canute) rule England.
1028 - Knut (Canute), king of England and Denmark, conquers Norway.
1042 - Edward the Confessor rules England with the support of the Danes.
1050 - The city of Oslo is founded in Norway.
1066 - Harold Godwinson king of England defeats Harald Hardrada king of Norway at the Battle of Stamford Bridge
1066 - William duke of Normandy defeats the Saxon king Harold at the Battle of Hastings.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Some Chinese might disagree with you Angus.
The (now) famous Chinese explorations were done in the 14th and 15th centuries half a millennia after the Viking Age. The Chinese didn’t make proper sea going (as opposed to costal) ships until the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368).
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Mikligarđur = Istanbul. Konstantinopel.
Then there is Kćnugarđur (Kćna means boat) - that is Kiev!
And then comes a bone to pick on. One of my ancestors is also Ólafur "Pá" Höskuldsson. His mother was from Ireland, - Höskuldur fell in love with her and bought her free when he was doing his "Viking" TOD in Norway.
Her ancestry is quite a go :D
Will be back later, got a job to do.
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The three great protagonists in the events of 1066 in England were all of Norse ancestry.
Harald Hardraada was the king of Norway. Harold Godwinson was of Danish ancestry, his father having served both Canute the Great and King Edward the Confessor. Willim Bastard of Normandy was descended from the viking chief Rolf the Ganger who was given lands on the Norman coast by the King of France.
Harald Hardraada was the most famous warrior in Christendom, having been the leader of the Varangian guard in Constantinople, where he amassed great wealth before returning to Norway.
Invading England in September of 1066, He devastated the forces of Earls Edwin and Morcar at the Battle of Gate Fulford, before receiving the submission of the city of York. Harold Godwinson, king of England, marched the core of his army the two-hundred miles from London to York in nine days, and surprised the Norwegians at Stamford Bridge.
Historians have called the Battle of Stamford Bridge one of the most decisive battles of the middle ages. It spelled the end of large scale viking invasions and conquests. Of the 7,000 to 10,000 men which Hardraada had brought to England on 400 ships, only enough survived to man 24 ships to return to Norway.
Three days later, Harold Godwineson learned that William Bastard's forces had landed at Hastings. Harold then repeated his rapid 200 mile march to London, where he rested his elite household troops (huscarles) and gathered reinforcements. He then made a rapid three day march to the coast, hoping to bar the only road leading out of the Hastings peninsula, and pin William against the sea.
The Battle of Hastings on October 14, was long and bloody, with the Norman army unable to break the English shield wall until the sun was setting at the end of the day. English resolve was only broken when Harold Godwinson was struck down by a "chance blow" according to Norman sources. The Bayeux Tapestry shows Harold being struck down by an arrow in the eye.
One of the best historical novels ever written is The Golden Warrior, by Hope Muntz.
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Here is the explanation (http://www.rathergood.com/val_halal/)
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Had England not been invaded at 2 locations in the same time, Hastings would not have been lost.
Just a matter of days really, - armies gathering and organizing.
Almot 900 years later the LW tried a stab in the style, (1940), and failed, - horribly.