Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Makarov9 on June 28, 2007, 01:43:57 PM
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=464921&in_page_id=1811 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=464921&in_page_id=1811)
Now that's what I call ballsy!
-
Good luck Putin.
:rofl
-
just the maniacle flailings of a frustrated 2nd rate country slipping into 3rd rate status.
-
North Pole wasn't Russian you mean?...
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
North Pole wasn't Russian you mean?...
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
Just keep telling yourself that, comrade. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Boroda
North Pole wasn't Russian you mean?...
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
yea well... umm. we won the cold war re-facto.
-
Originally posted by jhookt
yea well... umm. we won the cold war re-facto.
Just keep telling yourself that, mister.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Just keep telling yourself that, mister.
i'm already too busy telling myself that the sun is not a deathstar in disguise
-
Under current international law, the countries ringing the Arctic - Russia, Canada, the US, Norway, Denmark (Greenland) - are limited to a 200 mile economic zone around their coastlines.
Sergei Priamikov, of Russia's Arctic and Antarctic Research Institute, said the notion was "strange" and warned other countries could make counter claims.
Canada "could say that the Lomonosov ridge is part of the Canadian shelf, which means Russia should in fact belong to Canada, together with the whole of Eurasia", he observed drily.
Well Boroda.... how aboot a beer ay?
-
Under current international law, the countries ringing the Arctic - Russia, Canada, the US, Norway, Denmark (Greenland) - are limited to a 200 mile economic zone around their coastlines.
This could put a damper on Russian ambitions. :D
-
Originally posted by Elfie
This could put a damper on Russian ambitions. :D
Well not quite. That's exactly what they're challenging. They did it 5 years ago, but now they say they have a more compelling claim. It has to do with seabed composition and how it links with the arctic. It's a big can of worms. I can save you the trouble... it's all about money. There's enough oil & diamonds up there to make it worth squabbling over.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
.
Canada "could say that the Lomonosov ridge is part of the Canadian shelf, which means Russia should in fact belong to Canada, together with the whole of Eurasia", he observed drily.
So technically, if Canada owns you, then we own you too, because Canada is our little biatch! :p
-
so we can blame the melting of the polar ice caps on Russia ???
:noid
-
I can save you the trouble... it's all about money.
Of course it is. :)
I think there is a very good chance that we could see military action by the US if not NATO if the Russians try to grab this.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
North Pole wasn't Russian you mean?...
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
Well heck!
If your MAPS so it's so... well that's good enough for... uhh.... who?
-
As you can see, Putin is too late to lay claim to the North Pole.
(http://www.jaunted.com/files/3/north_pole_tourism.jpg)
-
Well, since Canada and Russia are connected by this ridge, I say that the claims are gone. And since the ridge is under water, how can Russia claim it anyways? And yes, the US won the cold war.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
As you can see, Putin is too late to lay claim to the North Pole.
(http://www.jaunted.com/files/3/north_pole_tourism.jpg)
I still don't understand why they are not flying off into space?
-
Wasn't this script already taken by loony tunes skit:
Duck Rogers in the 24th and 1/2 century...
whats next ... just add water Russian embassy to sprout up..
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c0/MarvinVSDaffy.jpg/250px-MarvinVSDaffy.jpg)
DoctorYo
-
The North Pole should never be used for anything other than research, expeditions and the odd tourist.
-
The North Pole should never be used for anything other than research, expeditions and the odd tourist.
====
If there is more oil there than in SA you can forget that notion. Wars will be fought over it. Silly human race. Kudos to the commies for having the balls to try and claim it. Cant really stop em if they are serious about it, bein a nukular power and all that......
-
North Pole should be Internationally owned and operated by all nations similar to the ISS
-
At least we know the U.N. will step in and make things right.
-
Well I say Nuke the North Pole and put an end to the Russians claim and the debate on global warming.
-
Originally posted by Xargos
Well I say Nuke the North Pole and put an end to the Russians claim and the debate on global warming.
Don't touch our land! And our oceans too :)
-
:D
-
If this were a move in the game of Risk the timing is wonderful. The US has tied itself up in Iraq and is using up men and resources there along with the perception that the American people no longer support the effort.
China is moving its influence into Africa to aquire it's vast natural resources while holding the majority of financial note in the world from loans to the US. The US cannot afford to not do business with China because many of our corporations have allowed their technology to be stolen and produced cheaper in China or have opted out entirly from the U.S. and moved production to China.
This is a good move on Russias part to get something going in the face of China's economic expansion. China needs raw material and fuel. The US and EU needs fuel. If Russia pulls this off, I won't be happy from the U.S. perspective. But I will be rooting for them every time environmentalists get shown the business end of a Kalishnikof. I have always appreciated Russian pragmatism when it comes to survival at all levels. Environmentalists don't seem to get the opportunity in Russia to radish whip the entire population. In that respect the U.S. could learn a few things about national survival from the big bad bear.
-
Originally posted by indy007
Well Boroda.... how aboot a beer ay?
I am having one right now, with smoked cheese.
Since I was a little boy - I wondered who drew that line that includes North Pole. We own all the islands that are over 80 degrees in our sector. In my 1954 atlas the border goes from the coast at 32 degrees East through the North Pole to 168 degrees West, moving East from Svalbard and then - back to 32 meridian.
I have read some more about the topic, and again, we are the only country capable of researching in that area, so if Russian scientists say that Russian continental shelf extends to the North Pole - then noone is able to beat it. Maybe someone had to spend some money on nuclear ice-breakers instead of aircraft carriers?... ;) If you don't know how to build icebreakers yourself - then you can pay Finns, they have built some for USSR back in the 80s.
BTW, did anyone here read Frank Herbert's (author of "Dune") first novel? It was named "Dragon in the Sea" or "XXI Century Sub". It was written in late-50s, and only 40 years later they really discovered oil on Novaya Zemlya con-shef :)
To Nielsen: You guys already got all the fish, so now we get the oil, agreed? ;)
Now seriously: I don't see any way to get the oil that lays below the ocean bottom under the permanent ice that drifts for millions of years. Herbert's idea of drilling under water and using inflatable tankers with nuclear tow-subs is still sci-fi.
-
Sorry, My Russian friends...
The seals, lobsters, and polar bears all voted...
They chose to be in international waters...
(Because they thought they were all along.)
And, since there is no '"land" to be claimed, how can any country lay claim to a constantly moving chunk of ice?
They also want to know what you are all aledgedly doing with all that space allocated to Russia at the SOUTH Pole, not alot of "Stalingrad Fried Chicken" franchises popping up on that real estate.
68ROX
-
Originally posted by indy007
Well not quite. That's exactly what they're challenging. They did it 5 years ago, but now they say they have a more compelling claim. It has to do with seabed composition and how it links with the arctic. It's a big can of worms. I can save you the trouble... it's all about money. There's enough oil & diamonds up there to make it worth squabbling over.
Oil, maybe. Diamonds, no. The formations under the North Pole are not "Kimberlite" or "lamproite volcanic pipe" in origin.
But regardless, Putin is fast showing the world what an idiot he is. At this point, I'd call Bush smarter, by a hair.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
Be a neat trick since the North Pole is in the middle of the Arctic Ocean and at best on moving pack ice, that occasionally breaks up into open water during the summertime these days. One flight over the north pole a few years ago reported open water as far as they could see one summer.
(http://www.deepoceanexpeditions.com/images/north_pole_map.jpg)
Closest land is 450 miles away and part of Greenland. Most northern settlements include Longyearbyen on Svalbard Island above 78 degrees N latitude. The Canadian hamlet of Grise Fiord in Nunavut (Canada's most northerly civilian settlement), is a couple degrees south of that. Alert, which is at 82 degrees N latitude is further north, but mostly military or research personnel and not considered a civilian "settlement".
-
come on guys, russia lost the race to land a man on the moon, the cold war, half of europe, and their navy is rusting away, let them have the north pole, it's going to melt anyway.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
I have read some more about the topic, and again, we are the only country capable of researching in that area, so if Russian scientists say that Russian continental shelf extends to the North Pole - then noone is able to beat it. Maybe someone had to spend some money on nuclear ice-breakers instead of aircraft carriers?...
"...we are the only country capable of researching in that area,"
Really?
Guess news dosen't get around too well in Russia...
USS Nautilus--
On 25 April 1958 she was underway again for the West Coast, now commanded by Commander William R. Anderson, USN. Stopping at San Diego, California, San Francisco, California, and Seattle, Washington, she began her history making Polar transit, operation "Sunshine," as she departed the latter port 9 June. On 19 June she entered the Chukchi Sea, but was turned back by deep draft ice in those shallow waters. On 28 June she arrived at Pearl Harbor to await better ice conditions. By 23 July her wait was over and she set a course northward. She submerged in the Barrow Sea Valley on 1 August and on 3 August, at 2315 (EDST) she became the first ship to reach the geographic North Pole. From the North Pole, she continued on and after 96 hours and 2,945 km (1,590 nmi) under the ice, she surfaced northeast of Greenland, having completed the first successful submerged voyage across the North Pole.
Robert Peary--
First man credited with having reached the North Pole, American.
68ROX
-
Originally posted by RAIDER14
North Pole should be Internationally owned and operated by all nations similar to the ISS
Owned?! Well... Operated?! Does any other country have an airport there, offering "North Pole Skydiving" tours or simple transportation for the loonies who want to go back to Greenland skiing? Does any other country have permanent stations there, a new one every year (because of ice drift)? Can you buy a ticket to an ice-breaker for a tour to a North Pole in comfort in any other country?
Does any other country have people who simply want to play amateur soccer game on North Pole with their favorite heavy-metal band playing? :D And can afford it? ;)
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
But regardless, Putin is fast showing the world what an idiot he is. At this point, I'd call Bush smarter, by a hair.
Why do you think so?
Right now according international law any country can claim 200 miles economic zone around coastline but can increase this zone if they prove that it's part of continental shelves. Exactly what Putin is trying to do.
Once again, we don't claim that this is our territory, we want to include it into our economic zone! Feel the difference. :)
And why he is an idiot?
-
So what is the feasability of underwater only prospecting and retreival of natural resources from the arctic region??????
-
Originally posted by Boroda
I have read some more about the topic, and again, we are the only country capable of researching in that area, so if Russian scientists say that Russian continental shelf extends to the North Pole - then noone is able to beat it. Maybe someone had to spend some money on nuclear ice-breakers instead of aircraft carriers?... ;) If you don't know how to build icebreakers yourself - then you can pay Finns, they have built some for USSR back in the 80s.
Hate to bust your bubble, but the United States Coast Guard goes up there all the time. Has been doing so for a long time now. The Coast Guard Cutters Polar Sea and Polar Star have been doing so since the late 70's. The Polar Sea has parked on top of the North Pole. Also now in service since 2000 is the Cutter Healy which is our newest polar class icebreaker. She's been up north a few times as well. Funny how we can do it and we don't need nukes to get there.
The Polar Sea (http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/polarsea/Ship_Information.htm)
So you see, Russia isn't the ONLY country that is able to operate and conduct research in the Arctic. We do it too, so I suppose the US could claim the north pole as US territory as well huh??
-
Originally posted by bustr
So what is the feasability of underwater only prospecting and retreival of natural resources from the arctic region??????
Feasability? No way, at least with mordern technology.
Actutally, we are talking about far future, next century at least.
-
Originally posted by 68ROX
USS Nautilus--
I thought it was USS Skate to be the first to reach North Pole, about one year before our Leninskiy Komsomol (November class)... Shame on me :(
Anyway, the first surface ship to reach North Pole was a Soviet nuclear icebreaker Arktika (later Leonid Brezhnev later Arktika again). IIRC it happened in 1977. No ships other then Soviet/Russian nuclear icebreakers ever reached North Pole until now.
Now tell me how are you going to perform "research" from nuclear submarines. Compare it to a huge surface vessel of 23000tons displacement, with several helicopters aboard, capable of breaking through almost any ice it will meet.
BTW, do any other country have commercial navigation in Arctic Ocean?
Originally posted by 68ROX
Robert Peary--
First man credited with having reached the North Pole, American.
His achievement was doubted many times, and some historians say that first people to see North Pole were Norge zeppelin crew, (because Sedov's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Sedov) achievement was also doubted) but he was a real hero...
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
The Polar Sea has parked on top of the North Pole.
I only see information on "Polar Sea" doing some routine jobs in the Antarctic, that still can't be compared to what icebreaker "Vladivostok" did during "Mikhail Somov"'s odissey in 1985. Nothing about reaching North Pole. Check your sources please and give me direct links, you know, I always enjoy finding some facts that are criminally concealed from Russian public by our bloody communist regime :D
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Now tell me how are you going to perform "research" from nuclear submarines. Compare it to a huge surface vessel of 23000tons displacement, with several helicopters aboard, capable of breaking through almost any ice it will meet.
[
Boroda,
What was I thinking. You are right, since no effort has been put in place to build commercial under water nucular research and recovery vessels. Only governments have the capitol to build such underwater vessels and those governments opted for war vessels.
So lets shift the question a bit. With current technologies is it possible to create classes of vessels to perform underwater prospecting and recovery of natural resources? If the giant oil recovery rigs that are consturcted and floated out into the North Sea are now a reality, is it not more likely a matter of money and cost return keeping it from happening?
-
It's right there in the link. This is copied and pasted right from the link. The link is from the US Coast Guard. I also personaly know several of the crew that were onboard at that time and have seen the pictures from the party they had out on the ice. Looked like a decent game of softball going on in a couple of the pictures my buddy showed me.
"On August 22, 1994, she had the distinction of being the first U.S. surface ship to reach the North Pole."
By the way the Polar class ships alternate their trips, with one going north and the other going south every year. Lately they've been going south more than north due to the higher demand McMurdo Sound research station has for them, but they do go north, and have been doing so for awhile. The Sea has 18 trips so far up north.
-
Originally posted by bustr
Boroda,
What was I thinking. You are right, since no effort has been put in place to build commercial under water nucular research and recovery vessels. Only governments have the capitol to build such underwater vessels and those governments opted for war vessels.
So lets shift the question a bit. With current technologies is it possible to create classes of vessels to perform underwater prospecting and recovery of natural resources? If the giant oil recovery rigs that are consturcted and floated out into the North Sea are now a reality, is it not more likely a matter of money and cost return keeping it from happening?
It's sad, but there was only one power in world's history to invest in such obviously-adventurous projects (like Siberian oil-fields exploration): the USSR. No privately-owned company could ever afford anything like Soviet projects in Siberia. So it goes :(
Frank Herbert described XXI century with permanent nuclear war between East and West, so Western side discovered oil fields near Novaya Zemlya, drilled wells and now "steals" oil from Russkies by sending nuclear tow-subs attacked by Russian interceptors bringing precious oil to the US...
I think Vad is right, current "economical model" doesn't afford anything such insanely expensive and risky. They'll try to explore this oil fields under ice exactly when the "continental" oil will be exausted, and then it will be only used for chemical industry. "Burning oil is like putting money bills into a fireplace" as Dmitry Mendeleev said over 100 years ago.
Putin's attempt to declare Arctic as a Russian property is quite brave, but, unfortunately, we have seen national borders move several times in last 100 years... I hope that Russia, as the only Empire in human history built by collective effort of many nations that still coexist an cooperate without "colonial" policy will survive until XXII century, but instead of USCR with cities on Mars and uranium mines on Venus we'll have to keep torturing our own planet...
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
It's right there in the link. This is copied and pasted right from the link. The link is from the US Coast Guard. I also personaly know several of the crew that were onboard at that time and have seen the pictures from the party they had out on the ice. Looked like a decent game of softball going on in a couple of the pictures my buddy showed me.
"On August 22, 1994, she had the distinction of being the first U.S. surface ship to reach the North Pole."
By the way the Polar class ships alternate their trips, with one going north and the other going south every year. Lately they've been going south more than north due to the higher demand McMurdo Sound research station has for them, but they do go north, and have been doing so for awhile. The Sea has 18 trips so far up north.
Sorry I missed that line, my fault :( Didn't see any mention in Wiki article too :(
That guys are really brave. A ship almost 2 times smaller then a new Krasin with less power etc... And still Krasin only "cleaned up" a channel after Polar Star in 2005.
At least in the Arctic if they get stuck - they'll probably get rescued by Arktika class icebreaker, if there will be one of six free of leading caravans across Northern Sea Route. ;)
-
Its probally gonna start ww3.
-
That would have gone over real well if Neil Armstrong claimed the moon as US territory. By the way, who gets the South Pole?
-
Originally posted by MoeRon
That would have gone over real well if Neil Armstrong claimed the moon as US territory. By the way, who gets the South Pole?
Now - Americans. Amundsen-Scott station.
Antarctic is declared "no one's land" by the UN, but Australia, NZ, Chilie, Denmark (!!!) and, I could forget it, some other countries claim "sectors" up to the South Pole (where Americans already settled and sit smiling northwards). Needless to say that Russians have chosen the most suitable place, where noone else wants to live, and built a Vostok station at Pole of Frost, where temperature goes down to -90C.
Central Antarctic is probably even more useless then that proposed oil fields on Arctic shelf underwater: 3 km of ice to reach soil is probably too much until we'll melt it and flood Europe and South Asia. Anyway according to current estimations it will take several thousand years to melt Antarctic ice even if we'll manage to move that dead continent to the Tropics, so - don;t worry about dividing Antarctic natural resources. It's probably cheaper to excavate for Helium isotopes at the Moon.
-
BTW: Boroda
I have MANY Russian friends, and have a great deal of respect for them, (as I do for you).
I am one of those goofy "Amateur Radio" operators who have communicated with Soviet/Russian citizens going back to 1980. (Identifiable by the odd looking wire and alumunum antennas at their location.)
I listened to Radio Moscow in the 1970's and not only saw through the propaganda as a kid, but understood that those people would see the world differently if they were free to travel the world and see what other people and cultures where REALLY like....for GOOD and for BAD.
In the old days, the Soviet Regeim allowed "hams" to only say their call signs and give a reception report. Soviet Hams who said any other information dissapeared from the airwaves.
Since then, it has been GREAT to make friendships with Russian radio afficianatos from all Oblasts. We exchange food recepies, talk about our kids and grandchildren, and hope for a better world away from Oppenheimer's Evil Toy.
I have communicated with Russian radio operators many times on 14 mHz and have had many conversations muddled by the Aurora of communicating "over the pole"....(sounds like gurgling water in the background).
One friend, from Minsk, talked about Chernobyl, and how it had adversly caused he and his family problems.
When you get on the radio, or the internet, the world becomes a lot smaller than it used to be when Americans dug nuclear bomb shelters in their back yards and saw movies in school about what to do in case of a nuclear war.
Russian citizens are no different than the American people. We all work hard. Try and make a better life for our children and hope for a better world for our grandchildren.
Our governments and leaders may have different agendas, but our day to day life is no different.
I grew up in the 1960's, and people here thought the world could end at any moment to nuclear war. My children have no fear of that. We have all come a long way. Will my grandchild have the same benifit?
I hope YOURS does.
Politics whithers in the face of peoples who can sit at a table and talk about a decent future.
<> My friend.
68ROX
Bruce
-
Unlike the North Pole which is nothing more than a large ice sheet, the South Pole is actually situated on a landmass.
Several nations have territories on the Antarctic continent:
Territory, Claimant, Claim limits, Date
Adelie Land, France, 142¡ã2¡äE to 136¡ã11¡äE, 1924
Argentine Antarctica, Argentina, 25¡ãW to 74¡ãW, 1943
Australian Antarctic Territory, Australia 160¡ãE to 142¡ã2¡äE and 136¡ã11¡äE to 44¡ã38¡äE, 1933
Ant¨¢rtica Chilena Province, Chile, 53¡ãW to 90¡ãW, 1940
British Antarctic Territory, United Kingdom, 20¡ãW to 80¡ãW, 1908
Dronning Maud Land, Norway, 44¡ã38¡äE to 20¡ãW, 1939
Peter I Island, Norway, 68¡ã50¡äS, 90¡ã35¡äW, 1929
Ross Dependency, New Zealand, 150¡ãW to 160¡ãE, 1923
Dennmark does not claim any territories in Antarctica.
-
A map of the territories on Antarctica and all the various scientific bases there. Russia looks to have 5 bases there, so I don’t know what Boroda is griping about.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Antarctica.jpg)
-
but if putin moves is then what happens to santa!?!
-
Santa’s from Finland, not the North Pole.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2694015368011876450
-
Originally posted by Viking
Santa’s from Finland, not the North Pole.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2694015368011876450
So then the Fins go to war with Russia?
-
the soviets invented the north pole it is only fitting that they own it.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Boroda
BTW, did anyone here read Frank Herbert's (author of "Dune") first novel? It was named "Dragon in the Sea" or "XXI Century Sub". It was written in late-50s, and only 40 years later they really discovered oil on Novaya Zemlya con-shef :)
I'm currently reading it ,it's not his best book.
-
Originally posted by Vad
Why do you think so?
Right now according international law any country can claim 200 miles economic zone around coastline but can increase this zone if they prove that it's part of continental shelves. Exactly what Putin is trying to do.
Once again, we don't claim that this is our territory, we want to include it into our economic zone! Feel the difference. :)
And why he is an idiot?
I see you addressed 1/2 of my post. This tells me one thing, and we all know what it is.
Why on Earth does the Russian Mafia need an Arctic Climate to gain ground it has already stolen from it's own people? Are they gonna steal from Igloo's, Seals, and Polar Bears?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Putin's attempt to declare Arctic as a Russian property is quite brave, but, unfortunately, we have seen national borders move several times in last 100 years... I hope that Russia, as the only Empire in human history built by collective effort of many nations that still coexist an cooperate without "colonial" policy will survive until XXII century, but instead of USCR with cities on Mars and uranium mines on Venus we'll have to keep torturing our own planet...
Coexist? Ask East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia and Romania about that. If you think they "happily coexisted" you're off of your rocker. After the "COLONIAL ACQUISITION and OCCUPATION" by USSR Forces after both WWI (Poland) and WWII, there was still "no happy coexisting".
co·ex·ist - verb. To exist separately or independently but peaceably, often while remaining rivals or adversaries: Although their ideologies differ greatly, the two great powers must coexist.
There was NO PEACE, nor INDEPENDENCE. So, please, use a different word. Because this word was not appropriate for the "propaganda being spoken".
Also, let's not forget the "coexisting" of Katyn.
-
Masherbrum, I agree with most of what you say, except the part about Yugoslavia; they were never under Soviet control or occupation. The Yugoslavian resistance movements liberated much of the country themselves with some support from the Red Army. The rest of Yugoslavia still under Axis control surrendered to the British when Germany capitulated. Yugoslavia never really saw eye-to-eye with Moscow and their relationship throughout the Cold War was strained but peaceably.
-
Originally posted by Viking
Yugoslavia never really saw eye-to-eye with Moscow and their relationship throughout the Cold War was strained but peaceably.
Agree, but I included them because they were a Warsaw Pact" country. But, you are correct. <> G
-
Actually Yugoslavia was the only European communist country not a signatory of the Warsaw Pact. Yugoslavia was a neutral, non-aligned country, but with obvious ties and sympathies to the communist Eastern Block. <
>
-
forgot Hungary.
-
Vad, no retort?
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Vad, no retort?
I don't see any ground for conversation.
I replied on half of your post because I have nothing to say on another part, I have no knowledge about diamonds.
About Russian Mafia? There is nothing to say here. If you really do believe in mafia you shouldn't be surprised, mafia always wants to steal more and more. I don't believe in mafia, but agree that Russia should take more and more. Just in case.
As you can see regardless of diferent attitudes towards Putin the result will be the same. We can and have to take North Pole, and we will do that.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Coexist? Ask East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia and Romania about that. If you think they "happily coexisted" you're off of your rocker. After the "COLONIAL ACQUISITION and OCCUPATION" by USSR Forces after both WWI (Poland) and WWII, there was still "no happy coexisting".
co·ex·ist - verb. To exist separately or independently but peaceably, often while remaining rivals or adversaries: Although their ideologies differ greatly, the two great powers must coexist.
There was NO PEACE, nor INDEPENDENCE. So, please, use a different word. Because this word was not appropriate for the "propaganda being spoken".
Also, let's not forget the "coexisting" of Katyn.
Sorry, I use English words that I think have the closest meaning to what I want to say in Russian. Independence is definetly a wrong word in describing this concept. I used two words, "coexist and cooperate". What I meant was that Russia never was a colonial empire, never relied on genocide (as some other countries, you probably know them), and it gives us a chance to survive as one entity, inter-national. There is some certain difference between Russians, Tatars and, for example, Buddist Kalmyks. "Russian" is both citizenship and nationality. I am Russian, and Russian citizen, my Mother is Ukrainian, also Russian citizen.
East Germany a part of the Empire?! Poland was a province, as well as Finland, but they separated. As well as 14 Soviet Republics did later. It's their own choice, you see they are a little disappointed because they thought that Russia will keep feeding them, some already found another warm tid to suck like Georgia that prefers to spend American money on buying Iranian (!!!) natural gas instead of cheaper Russian... They still feel offended that suddenly we refused to give them all for free, as in Soviet times when they were a Master Race and stupid Ivans were working for them.
I wonder if you understood what I meant by "USCR". Sometimes you guys are so predictable in your propaganda-influenced conclusions... :(
Damn if I am able of posting such stuff when I am sober - then I am trembling to read what I'll post when I'll be drunk...
-
Originally posted by Makarov9
At least we know the U.N. will step in and make things right.
:eek: since when do they make ANYTHING right??
-
Originally posted by Vad
About Russian Mafia? There is nothing to say here. If you really do believe in mafia you shouldn't be surprised, mafia always wants to steal more and more. I don't believe in mafia, but agree that Russia should take more and more. Just in case.
Vad, I talked to some intelligent people in the West (like my Mother's husband), and sometimes they say "it's unfair for Russia to have so many resources, you should share them with the rest of the world". I find this suggestion absolutely 110% Bolshevik, and this people want us to learn Capitalism?!
Our country worked it's bellybutton off to develop all that mines and oil/gas fields in Siberia, thousands of miles from any decent place to live, digging permafrost, and now some "humanitarians" (®¡é¥ç¥«®¢¥ª¨) want us to share it all!?
Originally posted by Vad
As you can see regardless of diferent attitudes towards Putin the result will be the same. We can and have to take North Pole, and we will do that.
I couldn't say it better myself. Anyone who objects should feel free to try bombing us, or, if they have no guts - write protest letters to Sportloto or Sexual Reform League. And if someone disagrees - we'll switch the gas off. :D
-
Originally posted by clerick
:eek: since when do they make ANYTHING right??
Good to see someone from so-called Civilised World agrees that invading Korea was not a good idea :D
-
Originally posted by Vad
We can and have to take North Pole, and we will do that.
So, you're a hypocrite then? I mean, you just spewed a bunch of caca del toro about "non-colonial empires". You cannot respond, because you are incapable of intelligence. The above quote PROVES it.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
The poor and slave labor in the gulog's worked their tulips off to develop all that mines. Oil/gas fields in Siberia, thousands of miles from any decent place to live, digging permafrost, and now some "humanitarians" (®¡é¥ç¥«®¢¥ª¨) want us to share it all!?
Yer looking to start another war is what you are doing Boroda. WTF do you know about humanity? Not much as I can see.
-
I see that Baghdad Boroda, i mean Bob, is safe and well, and is now working for the Russians...
-
Yes, the USSR is looking to start another war, and if they do, I'll run to the signup for the Air Force.
Originally posted by Vad
As you can see regardless of diferent attitudes towards Putin the result will be the same. We can and have to take North Pole, and we will do that.
The Hell you'll take the North Pole, it ain't yours. It's always, ours, ours, ours, you try to take everything you see.
Originally posted by Boroda
I couldn't say it better myself. Anyone who objects should feel free to try bombing us, or, if they have no guts - write protest letters to Sportloto or Sexual Reform League. And if someone disagrees - we'll switch the gas off.
Yeah, you'll do whatever you want to hush the people, you are still dictators and communists over there.
Originally posted by Boroda
Good to see someone from so-called Civilised World agrees that invading Korea was not a good idea.
No, it wasn't good fer you commies to invade Korea, the USA won the Korean war.
Originally posted by Vad
I don't believe in mafia, but agree that Russia should take more and more. Just in case.
Yeah, you go ahead and take more and more, and see what THAT gets you - a boot up your a** from the USA. Don't think we'll just stand by and watch you try to take over the world like Hitler.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
So, you're a hypocrite then? I mean, you just spewed a bunch of caca del toro about "non-colonial empires". You cannot respond, because you are incapable of intelligence. The above quote PROVES it.
You are loosing your face. :)
I didn't say anything about empires.
And simple statement doesn't tell anything about my intellegence.
PS:
I know Spanish enough to see the attempt to bypass profanity filter :)
-
Originally posted by McFarland
Yes, the USSR is looking to start another war, and if they do, I'll run to the signup for the Air Force.
The Hell you'll take the North Pole, it ain't yours. It's always, ours, ours, ours, you try to take everything you see.
Yeah, you'll do whatever you want to hush the people, you are still dictators and communists over there.
No, it wasn't good fer you commies to invade Korea, the USA won the Korean war.
Yeah, you go ahead and take more and more, and see what THAT gets you - a boot up your a** from the USA. Don't think we'll just stand by and watch you try to take over the world like Hitler.
Too many emotions.
And some statements are simply wrong. USA didn't win Korean war, I am not communist and never been.
I agree, North Pole isn't ours. Yet. But it will be ours according to international law if geographers confirm results of our scientists.
I'm just trying to stay on topic.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
Yes, the USSR is looking to start another war, and if they do, I'll run to the signup for the Air Force.
The Hell you'll take the North Pole, it ain't yours. It's always, ours, ours, ours, you try to take everything you see.
Yeah, you'll do whatever you want to hush the people, you are still dictators and communists over there.
No, it wasn't good fer you commies to invade Korea, the USA won the Korean war.
Yeah, you go ahead and take more and more, and see what THAT gets you - a boot up your a** from the USA. Don't think we'll just stand by and watch you try to take over the world like Hitler.
Mc,
You are new. Best to sit this one out.
Wolf
-
Originally posted by Vad
I agree, North Pole isn't ours. Yet. But it will be ours according to international law if geographers confirm results of our scientists.
I'm just trying to stay on topic.
International scientists should be added and assist your scientists to prevent fudging records (usual Soviet tactic);)
-
Originally posted by Wolfala
Mc,
You are new. Best to sit this one out.
Wolf
why? do you only garner credibility via number of posts?
don't miss understand me though, every thing McFarland post has no substances or validity but who are you to tell him that because he hasn't been on these boards very long means his opinion is worthless?
-
The North Pole was included in the package deal when the U.S. bought Alaska from Russia.
A U.S. expedition was the first to reach the North Pole. Finders keepers.
NORAD helps Santa with his route from the North Pole every year.
U.S. subs break through the ice to surface near the North Pole and play like big seals for polar bears.
U.S. forces recovered The Thing when it crashed through arctic ice near the North Pole.
Actually Canada owns the North Pole and Russia but doesn't want to get involved.
-
i wish i owned the north pole..i would buy a snoopy snow cone machine;)
-
That pole is not complete without a pole dancer. That would be the first thing i would fix if i owned it.
-
That pole is not complete without a pole dancer. That would be the first thing i would fix if i owned it.
now thats thinking...snow cones and hookers... thats a north pole we could all enjoy!!:)
-
not all pole dancers are hookers, well thats what she told me anyway.
-
Originally posted by 1K3
International scientists should be added and assist your scientists to prevent fudging records (usual Soviet tactic);)
Who said they shouldn't?
Geography isn't history, it's hard science.
-
Originally posted by Vad
Who said they shouldn't?
Geography isn't history, it's hard science.
That doesn't mean the hard science can't be *fudged* ;)
-
I think two people in this thread need to go to AA and kick the Vodka induced bullchit slinging.
Remember Katyn!!!!!
-
Originally posted by Boroda
East Germany a part of the Empire?! Poland was a province, as well as Finland, but they separated. As well as 14 Soviet Republics did later. It's their own choice, you see they are a little disappointed because they thought that Russia will keep feeding them, some already found another warm tid to suck like Georgia that prefers to spend American money on buying Iranian (!!!) natural gas instead of cheaper Russian... They still feel offended that suddenly we refused to give them all for free, as in Soviet times when they were a Master Race and stupid Ivans were working for them.
I wonder if you understood what I meant by "USCR". Sometimes you guys are so predictable in your propaganda-influenced conclusions... :(
Damn if I am able of posting such stuff when I am sober - then I am trembling to read what I'll post when I'll be drunk...
Oh, so the Germans built the Berlin Wall? Poland was NEVER a Province of Russia. Maybe to the Communist mind it was, but a gnat has a larger mind.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
That doesn't mean the hard science can't be *fudged* ;)
I hope Canadian scientists won't allow to fudge russian records and will confirm them. In this case Canada and Russia will be able to partition that ridge.
BTW, I have two citizenships, guess what :)
-
Its all about war.
Point is, no mater how MUCH oil you bears find, it wont amount to anything vs. alaska's oil fields.
You must think, oil is made by organic substances, animals, tree's moss .ect
The north pole has NONE, therefor the amount of oil will be NONE.
What they will probably TRY to do, is drill INTO alask's oil fields, and leech oil from other nations.
And that will start wars.
Nothing russia has ever done in its history was to help anyone else who, EVER saw themself's as FREE.
Its exspansion and weapons sales were to keep it alive.
The ak's scuds .ect are all designed by russians, the blueprints sold to other countrys so they can make weapons of war and wage death.
All for "Mother russia's survival"
Russia is a war weapon making leech stats if it ever exsisted.
Every major battle and conflict from the 45's on, has something to do with russia. "korea, vietnam, commies all the crap in the 80's the afgan war, commies"
Just in case you people have not noticed by now, we may make stations and bases on other peoples land, but we dont INVADE,change street names, put people under our laws and rule, and we sure as hell dont inforce that state/countrys way of life be changed.
In korea, most of the jets were flown by RUSSIAN pilots waging war.
In vietnam, Those were russian supply, uniforms weapons and tactics.
Every tank, mig, gun/ammo/grenade, food ration, was russian made and supplyed.
Again in the 80's war's and conflicts all russians.
Now im not one to say whats right wrong or indiffrent,granted..in every one of those conflics there was an american force pushing just as well.
REMEMBER, korea had two sides, North/ RUSSIA the south "U.N./america"
Vietnam, again..supplyed by russia, aided and supported also by the U.N & america.
Same thing with the 80's
One must truely see, your people and nations are the united nations enemy.
And just in case you try to push the "yeah well your side was doing the SAME as ours"
Remember this, YOUR government made your "allies .ect" "North korea, vietnamiese .ect wave the RUSSIAN flag. for YOUR prosparity, for YOUR glory for YOUR EMPIRE for YOUR way of life.
WE allow them to wave their flag for their prosparity, for their glory for their empire, for their way of life.
You can take your country's flag & agendas and swallow.
The world see's thru you.
And the biggest PLOY was for your country to proclame to the rest of the world as being "beat""dead" so we can sleep, so we can slumber.so we can put our gaurd down.
So you could pillage our technolagy, our information our cars our way of life.
So you could become us, to learn to kill us.
The only reason your nation wants the land up north is for a staging point for underwater subs, first chance nukeular attack, or a massive land invasion.
OIL AND DIAMOND's!?
Like hell, ask the chinese, goto africa for that.
"put's back on his tinfoil hat" Enjoy yourselfs.
-
Has there been any kind of exploration to determine if there is even any oil there?
I hope Canadian scientists won't allow to fudge russian records and will confirm them. In this case Canada and Russia will be able to partition that ridge.
Any scientists that are on a verification team shouldn't be from any country that has the potential to profit from the North Pole region. Otherwise the results can't be trusted imo.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Has there been any kind of exploration to determine if there is even any oil there?
Any scientists that are on a verification team shouldn't be from any country that has the potential to profit from the North Pole region. Otherwise the results can't be trusted imo.
You are from the US, aren't you? Last time I was in Aspen Colorado was still in the US.
Ok, as a good Canadian I would give you some oil... say, 20%. American scientists can participate in this research but they have to look on the results from the right point of view. Deal?
:)
-
Originally posted by Vad
I hope Canadian scientists won't allow to fudge russian records and will confirm them. In this case Canada and Russia will be able to partition that ridge.
BTW, I have two citizenships, guess what? :)
Yer dilusional. Putin is a moron.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer dilusional. Putin is a moron.
I don't think so.
I believe he is very clever man and great leader. He will be in history like Peter the Great and Stalin.
He reconstructed almost ruined country during few years, partly thanks to your President. It's a big question who is moron. :)
-
Oh yeah....Stalin was a great leader. Sure Wilbur. You just have to love all those great leaders that like to kill off millions of their own people out of sheer paranoia. He ranks right up there with Hitler and Pol Pot.
Thank GOD I don't have to live under one of those great leaders.
Vad probably thinks Hugo Chavez is a great guy as well.
-
ffs, alaska has more oil than most people even dream of.
Whats funny is in about five more years, most of our cars and such will be ran off other means.
Most american oil will goto producing LONG lasting lubrication, plastics and such. Most engines will not create half the friction todays engines do, most moving parts being suspended with magnetic forces, making them total friction free.
Electric engines, fuel cells and magnetics will be the future.
Carbon fibers and such will be replacing metal.
Your country's can keep at it with engine's that burn thru oil like none other, digging up your part of the earth, for your metals.
Thats why the american scrap metal is at such a boom nowa'days, not for us to refine and use, but for us to cut up, place on trains ship them out to our docks,and to sell to you countrys who cant or wont refine these substances for themselfs.
That or,thru out your countrys history they used all those resources to make and build tanks,planes,bombs,guns,ammo and the likes to help fund your global agenda.
Not taking into account your failures and the cost of resources you thought would make it all worthwhile.
No matter the reason, alot of countrys simply cannot reproduce the things they use to even 20 years ago.
The saying is "Where their are the means, there is the way."
well, without such means you have no way.
That also said, utah itself can product more cement, sand, metal from its ground than most other nations combined. Our resources come from active mountians who are still to this day pushing up unlimited amounts of resources, while the rest of the world's has run out long long ago.
Willing to bet, if the russians knew their future, it would have been a cold day in hell before they sold alaska.
Same thing for the british, hell the resources alone would have made this place worth sending every soldier they had,to steam roll the people, and keep it for themselfs.
Then again, the future is not forsaken, maby they realy will find the resources to pull there nations out of the sinkhole it is in, or maby they will simply start leeching other nations oil supplys from them, starting a totaly new global war. only time will tell.
Sorry to say it probably wont be american soldiers, or russian soldiers.
But global oil company's. And that is probably even worst, cause they will bend EVERYONE over the table for a nice time of good ol' money lovinz'
Even so, is the fact the ones who are down the most, will have to give the most to get what they need, shame.
Enjoy yourself's :aok
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Its all about war.
Point is, no mater how MUCH oil you bears find, it wont amount to anything vs. alaska's oil fields.
You must think, oil is made by organic substances, animals, tree's moss .ect
The north pole has NONE, therefor the amount of oil will be NONE.
What they will probably TRY to do, is drill INTO alask's oil fields, and leech oil from other nations.
And that will start wars.
Nothing russia has ever done in its history was to help anyone else who, EVER saw themself's as FREE.
Its exspansion and weapons sales were to keep it alive.
The ak's scuds .ect are all designed by russians, the blueprints sold to other countrys so they can make weapons of war and wage death.
All for "Mother russia's survival"
Russia is a war weapon making leech stats if it ever exsisted.
Every major battle and conflict from the 45's on, has something to do with russia. "korea, vietnam, commies all the crap in the 80's the afgan war, commies"
Just in case you people have not noticed by now, we may make stations and bases on other peoples land, but we dont INVADE,change street names, put people under our laws and rule, and we sure as hell dont inforce that state/countrys way of life be changed.
In korea, most of the jets were flown by RUSSIAN pilots waging war.
In vietnam, Those were russian supply, uniforms weapons and tactics.
Every tank, mig, gun/ammo/grenade, food ration, was russian made and supplyed.
Again in the 80's war's and conflicts all russians.
Now im not one to say whats right wrong or indiffrent,granted..in every one of those conflics there was an american force pushing just as well.
REMEMBER, korea had two sides, North/ RUSSIA the south "U.N./america"
Vietnam, again..supplyed by russia, aided and supported also by the U.N & america.
Same thing with the 80's
One must truely see, your people and nations are the united nations enemy.
And just in case you try to push the "yeah well your side was doing the SAME as ours"
Remember this, YOUR government made your "allies .ect" "North korea, vietnamiese .ect wave the RUSSIAN flag. for YOUR prosparity, for YOUR glory for YOUR EMPIRE for YOUR way of life.
WE allow them to wave their flag for their prosparity, for their glory for their empire, for their way of life.
You can take your country's flag & agendas and swallow.
The world see's thru you.
And the biggest PLOY was for your country to proclame to the rest of the world as being "beat""dead" so we can sleep, so we can slumber.so we can put our gaurd down.
So you could pillage our technolagy, our information our cars our way of life.
So you could become us, to learn to kill us.
The only reason your nation wants the land up north is for a staging point for underwater subs, first chance nukeular attack, or a massive land invasion.
OIL AND DIAMOND's!?
Like hell, ask the chinese, goto africa for that.
"put's back on his tinfoil hat" Enjoy yourselfs.
I hope you understand that I won't analyze your emotional and illiterate post. I used to avoid teenagers.
-
Originally posted by Vad
I don't think so.
I believe he is very clever man and great leader. He will be in history like Peter the Great and Stalin.
He reconstructed almost ruined country during few years, partly thanks to your President. It's a big question who is moron. :)
Yes, be sure, he is in good company with those two, both responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of 'Russians'.:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
In korea, most of the jets were flown by RUSSIAN pilots waging war.
You are VERY badly informed.
-
"I hope you understand that I won't analyze your emotional and illiterate post. I used to avoid teenagers."
THANKS!
Now if only the rest of russia would cut itself off like korea did, wow what a world this would be.
"EDIT: oh no, that would mean we would have to surf the net and find bootleg copy's of old new reports to see your flat chested smurfy new reporters strip naked!"
"Pounds his fist into the ground, no..god no.....russia..stay with us!"
pffft :lol
-
Whats funny is in about five more years, most of our cars and such will be ran off other means.
i bet it will be more than 5 years....im willing to put cash down on that bet..lol..i heard this sence i was a kid in school..that was 25 years ago and the electric cars and hydro cars are not good anuff yet. and not powerfull anuff to hall cargo like in trucks or 18 wheelers ...it will be a long time before we get off being oil dependent. i dont see it in 5 years. the only goals they set in 5 years is they hope that every car being made gets atleast 35 mpg on pump gas.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer looking to start another war is what you are doing Boroda. WTF do you know about humanity? Not much as I can see.
Beware of putting your words in my mouth.
Masherbrum, you have enough arguments talking to me, don't go down to such things.
Our ability to demolish any aggressor is an only warranty against any war. C'mon, go for it, a pre-emptive nuclear strike is written in our military doctrine. You wanted it - you got it. We are unable and not interested in large-scale conventional war, so we state it bold: aggressors will be burnt by our Strategic Missile Corps. So it goes. Now keep mumbling about your "victory in cold war".
What you got is a much more dangerous opponent. We have the guts for a massive launch. It's easier to burn you all (as you planned to do to us) then to send our troops to persuade Europeans again. Euros are aquainted to Russian "invaders". Since mid-1700s. You guys are too easy to forget Russian task-forces to help you... You, personally, probably don't remember that John Paul Jones was a Russian Navy admiral.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
You, personally, probably don't remember that John Paul Jones was a Russian Navy admiral.
So the Russians needed an American to put their navy in shape? :rofl :aok
-
Originally posted by McFarland
Yes, the USSR is looking to start another war, and if they do, I'll run to the signup for the Air Force.
There is no more USSR.
Go run to sign up. You'll be conscripted into infantry, to be punctured by a Russian bayonet.
During the Eastern War, 1854-55, that we call Crimean War, British soldiers wounded by Russian bayonets were taken directly to the cemetary. Without seeing a doctor.
Hehe I am getting uglier and uglier.
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Yes, be sure, he is in good company with those two, both responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of 'Russians'.:rolleyes:
"You are VERY badly informed." :)
It weren't tens of thousands in Stalin's case, it were millions .
And regadrless of that millions they were the great leaders. They saved much more...
To judge them you have to learn history and take into consideration a lot of factors. And change your mentality a little. Just imagine that you have 3 children, and in some circumstances you have to kill one of them to let others survive. You think it's senseless? It 's just because you have never been in this situation. Russia was in this situation for thousand years.
Did you see "24" serial? Jack Bauer is american Stalin. He killed tens to save millions.
-
Yeah, altho the more something is made,the more people have acess to it, thus the better it will be made and changed thruout the products life time.
Longer lasting better runing .ect ect.
Alot of dump trucks and such use electric engines to power themselfs, a engine to give power "recharge" back to the power cells, and a friction derived generator every time the object is slowed down.
These type of systems will keep getting better and better.
Till the time comes when one of these systems can be taken away.
Alot has changed recently, and alot more will keep changing.
We now have paper thin "and light" solar cells, they can be placed anywhere at anytime.
Think of the days where some "cool design" on your jacket, will give power to the built in radio, gps' game systems/internet.
When your cool paintjob is realy millions of tiny sun/star sucking devices that will give it more than enough power to run day or night.
Nano tech is changing this world very very quickly.
Compress the space, you get more out of the area than what you need.
Great thing is this new tech is CHEAPER than the old 80's style solar cells.
And that will always help push the global agenda forward.
The more its used,the more its made, the more it is made the more it is improved on, the more it is improved on the more people use it, and the cheaper it gets.
A never ending chain of corperate engineering and success.
A day will come when the roofing on someones house is all that will be needed to supply THAT house,and a few of his neighbors with power.
And like wise, those houses will help power the working stations and complex's those people work at.
Who knows, maby then they will rerout the power from those facilitys at night,to help power the houses at sundown.
Maby we will get cells to the point of only needing to be recharged every 2-4 days.
The days of such are already here, it is just phasing the old out for the new,without it costing a company its arse is the bigest problem.
Look now how alot of oil companys are starting research on how to make and build electric devices.
They know the days of oil pumping is grinding to a hault, they may not like it, but it is sink or swim, and they are learning slowly how to swim.
Times ARE changing.
-
Originally posted by Vad
"You are VERY badly informed." :)
It weren't tens of thousands in Stalin's case, it were millions .
And regadrless of that millions they were the great leaders. They saved much more...
I know it was tens of millions.;)
By your logic, then Bush and the other American presidents are great leaders.:D
-
Originally posted by Wolfala
Mc,
You are new. Best to sit this one out.
Wolf
Wolf!...
I am sorry, but I need some dummies to practice... You know - I enjoy this mind games, and some members of intellectual majority make my day. Rip, Toad and other respectable opponents are too hard to "penetrate", so, please, leave me some easy targets :)
-
Lets face facts here people.
No matter who launches what, and where. a SINGLE nuke device blowing up would put this planet into another ice age.
Or worse, it would make this place a wasteland.
And to you russians/americans who think nukes are just realy big bombs, you must understand what these nukes made in the 80's-90's 00's realy are.
They are NOT city killers like the nukes made in the 40's-50's. "japan"
They are not COUNTRY killers, like the 60's-70's.
They are MAN KIND, killers.
You will have no sun, no clean water, no food, no animals no plants, no planet worth living for.
Your people, your government your land, your family's, your race.will be finished. Let it be a warning to you humans, anymore nukes on this planet will be the doom of you all.
Try claming victory on a war torn wasteland, radiation everywhere the wind blows.
Try claming your victory in 45+ feet of snow.
Good luck feeding your people with no food.
Again, the nuke's of todays man, will destroy everything*
E V E R Y T H I N G.
So get off the nuke chat, yet another human made object that everyone point's like a gun at each others head proclaming "we got the bomb, respect and FEAR us."
Peace is power, nuke's are the unbinding of everything that is human.
Do you have any idea what it feals like to be an american and KNOW your country/people wasted a few thousand people by nukeular fire?
Willing to bet alot of this worlds population will hate us all forever more for that action. Like wise if it was done again.
Remember "My god, what have we done...."
It was not "PRAISE AMERICA, FOR MOTHER RUSSIA, FOR KING AND COUNTRY!"
It was "my GOD, what.... have.... we..... done...."
THOSE, will be the words mutterd by the last standing humans on this planet.
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Lets face facts here people.
No matter who launches what, and where. a SINGLE nuke device blowing up would put this planet into another ice age.
Or worse, it would make this place a wasteland.
And to you russians/americans who think nukes are just realy big bombs, you must understand what these nukes made in the 80's-90's 00's realy are.
They are NOT city killers like the nukes made in the 40's-50's. "japan"
They are not COUNTRY killers, like the 60's-70's.
They are MAN KIND, killers.
You will have no sun, no clean water, no food, no animals no plants, no planet worth living for.
Your people, your government your land, your family's, your race.will be finished. Let it be a warning to you humans, anymore nukes on this planet will be the doom of you all.
Try claming victory on a war torn wasteland, radiation everywhere the wind blows.
Try claming your victory in 45+ feet of snow.
Good luck feeding your people with no food.
Again, the nuke's of todays man, will destroy everything*
E V E R Y T H I N G.
So get off the nuke chat, yet another human made object that everyone point's like a gun at each others head proclaming "we got the bomb, respect and FEAR us."
Peace is power, nuke's are the unbinding of everything that is human.
Do you have any idea what it feals like to be an american and KNOW your country/people wasted a few thousand people by nukeular fire?
Willing to bet alot of this worlds population will hate us all forever more for that action. Like wise if it was done again.
Remember "My god, what have we done...."
It was not "PRAISE AMERICA, FOR MOTHER RUSSIA, FOR KING AND COUNTRY!"
It was "my GOD, what.... have.... we..... done...."
THOSE, will be the words mutterd by the last standing humans on this planet.
Fear to die, boy?
Don't cry, stand up and die like a man!
-
Originally posted by Vad
"You are VERY badly informed." :)
It weren't tens of thousands in Stalin's case, it were millions .
And regadrless of that millions they were the great leaders. They saved much more...
Vad, take a look at this: http://semen-serpent.livejournal.com
-
Vad, it is not my life ending i fear.
It is the life of all man kind, animal and vegetation on this planet.
Be proud fine, do not be ignorant.
And you begrudge me by calling me names, cut me down by reducing me to a RANK and status of AGE.
Shame shame.
-
The nice thing is the US doesn't need nukes to take down a country. All we need is a GPS coordinate. Why destroy a city when we only need to destroy one office building, or bunker, or bridge. We have conventional weapons that are so far beyond anything anyone else in the world has we just don't need to use nukes.
The Russian army???? Please the US Air Force by itself could turn that outfit into a burning pile of junk in no time. Hell the only other countries on this planet that have a tank that can go toe to toe with an M1A2 Abrams are our allies. Hell the Russians don't have the manpower to take us on anymore. The only real threat is China just due to sheer numbers, but even they aren't all that big a threat.
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
I know it was tens of millions.;)
By your logic, then Bush and the other American presidents are great leaders.:D
Tens of millions!?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Wolf!...
I am sorry, but I need some dummies to practice... You know - I enjoy this mind games, and some members of intellectual majority make my day. Rip, Toad and other respectable opponents are too hard to "penetrate", so, please, leave me some easy targets :)
The only dummies in this post are Vad and yourself.
-
Have your views all you want people.
Please keep the respect for whatever it is worth.
Don't turn this into name calling and finger pointing on the case of someones national outlook.
No matter how much we do or do not agree.
Respect, or just laugh.
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Have your views all you want people.
Please keep the respect for whatever it is worth.
Don't turn this into name calling and finger pointing on the case of someones national outlook.
No matter how much we do or do not agree.
Respect, or just laugh.
Reread your first post in this thread.
"Name calling, finger pointing, national"?
Are you kidding?
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
The only dummies in this post are Vad and yourself.
We definitely have different views on this very important subject.
Personally, I am sure that this word war we have won as well as many others.
PS:
By the way, Karaya, do you mind to fly a little bit low, it takes too much time to climb to 25000 feet to meet you :)
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Vad, it is not my life ending i fear.
It is the life of all man kind, animal and vegetation on this planet.
Be proud fine, do not be ignorant.
.
Conclusion: don't mess up with Russians.
We do own the North Pole. Bomb us if you disagree, you are welcome. Expect to see re-entry trails in the sky, they probably look beautiful before megaton blasts and mushroom clouds.
We don;t care about vegetation. We are scheduled for demolition, and we'll pay back if you dare. Nothing personal.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Conclusion: don't mess up with Russians.
We do own the North Pole. Bomb us if you disagree, you are welcome. Expect to see re-entry trails in the sky, they probably look beautiful before megaton blasts and mushroom clouds.
We don;t care about vegetation. We are scheduled for demolition, and we'll pay back if you dare. Nothing personal.
I thought you guys sold all your ICBMs on ebay?:huh
-
Originally posted by Halo
The North Pole was included in the package deal when the U.S. bought Alaska from Russia.
Alaska was rented for 99 years. Not "bought". You illegally occupy it since 1967.
mmmmsweetmmmsooosweetttt
:D
-
Originally posted by Slash27
I thought you guys sold all your ICBMs on ebay?:huh
You bought some? I pity you. Congrats, you are a representative of Intellectual Majority!
-
Originally posted by Boroda
You bought some? I pity you. Congrats, you are a representative of Intellectual Majority!
Was really just a trade. 2 cases of Alpo for a SS-19. It made a great brisket smoker:aok
-
Originally posted by Slash27
I thought you guys sold all your ICBMs on ebay?:huh
We are trying but nobody is giving a good price.
Iran couldn't afford anything serious, just an old stuff and one nuclear reactor. Talking with Bin Laden right now but chances are low. He is poor man.
Chavez is our last chance, hope he has enough money to buy couple of 20 megatonns.
-
You guys need to go tinker some more on the Ekranoplan. Strap some Mini Coopers on the wings - they get 41 mpg in a tail wind...
-
Originally posted by Vad
We are trying but nobody is giving a good price.
Iran couldn't afford anything serious, just an old stuff and one nuclear reactor. Talking with Bin Laden right now but chances are low. He is poor man.
Chavez is our last chance, hope he has enough money to buy couple of 20 megatonns.
Best of luck:aok
-
You are from the US, aren't you? Last time I was in Aspen Colorado was still in the US.
No....we moved Colorado. :D
As far as the rest of your post.....that would still be cheating, so no thanks. :)
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Alaska was rented for 99 years. Not "bought". You illegally occupy it since 1967.
mmmmsweetmmmsooosweetttt
:D
Care to show some documentation on that Baghdad Boroda.....errr....uhhh....I mean Boroda? :D
(sorry, couldn't resist the Baghdad Boroda part, it's just to funny. I almost fell out of my chair when I read it the first time. :rofl)
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Vad, take a look at this: http://semen-serpent.livejournal.com
Uhh....could you translate that all from Cyrilic to Engreesh preeze? :t
-
Originally posted by Elfie
No....we moved Colorado. :D
WHERE!?!?!
Mountains and runs are still there?
BTW, where do you get that nice BIG lamb? Never have eaten anything better.
As far as the rest of your post.....that would still be cheating, so no thanks. :)
As you wish. It was honest offer, but... :)
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Uhh....could you translate that all from Cyrilic to Engreesh preeze? :t
Kidding?
There are tonns of letters there.
And, by the way, we have always tried to translate and publiush some of that here. You didn't like that...
Believe me, you don't want to know what they said...
-
Uhm, why would we not want to know?
Would it make you look bad?
If it is just someones opinions and view's why shouldnt it be?
Thats what these forums are for in most cases.
Your a english speaking russian, or a russian speaking english person.
You must have some kinda tool people can use to decypher all that techno babble.
-
WHERE!?!?!
I'm not telling!! :D
Mountains and runs are still there?
No, we moved everything. :t
-
Originally posted by Vad
Kidding?
There are tonns of letters there.
And, by the way, we have always tried to translate and publiush some of that here. You didn't like that...
Believe me, you don't want to know what they said...
I was kidding, hence the (:t) after what I said. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Elfie
I'm not telling!! :D
No, we moved everything. :t
Where is that lamb, you...!?!?!
Take that hills, leave the goats!
-
Originally posted by Vad
Where is that lamb, you...!?!?!
Take that hills, leave the goats!
:rofl
-
Originally posted by Elfie
(sorry, couldn't resist the Baghdad Boroda part, it's just to funny. I almost fell out of my chair when I read it the first time. :rofl)
Feel free to fall out of anything, if you like it, just don't get injured. We don;t need bourgeous press screaming about communist provocations! ;)
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Feel free to fall out of anything, if you like it, just don't get injured. We don;t need bourgeous press screaming about communist provocations! ;)
:rofl Good one!!
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Uhm, why would we not want to know?
Would it make you look bad?
If it is just someones opinions and view's why shouldnt it be?
Thats what these forums are for in most cases.
Your a english speaking russian, or a russian speaking english person.
You must have some kinda tool people can use to decypher all that techno babble.
A link I posted contains professor Zemskov's analysis of so-called "Stalin's purges", and busts the myth about "millions of people killed by evil regime". Zemskov's data is generally accepted by Western historians, but not by "popular history for dummies" authors from Ministry of Truth.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
North Pole wasn't Russian you mean?...
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
I thought that we own seabed there because all Arctic islands in that sector belong to Russia.
We have scientific stations and civilian airport on North Pole for decades now (first North Pole Station was working 70 years ago). Russia is the only country that is able to send surface ships to North Pole. So you can argue as much as you want, it's ours de-facto.
None of that is true. It's just propaganda by your government.
-
Originally posted by Yknurd
None of that is true. It's just propaganda by your government.
Elaborate please.
Line on the map - true.
Arctic Islands belong to Russia - true.
Drifting stations, airport on North Pole, icebreaker Arktika first surface ship to reach North pole - all true.
I can't see, where's propaganda?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
A link I posted contains professor Zemskov's analysis of so-called "Stalin's purges", and busts the myth about "millions of people killed by evil regime". Zemskov's data is generally accepted by Western historians, but not by "popular history for dummies" authors from Ministry of Truth.
That's odd... Most historians use the figure of 20,000,000 killed by Stalin. BUT many feel that is low by as much as 50%. Go Google "stalin" and "20,000,000" and tell me what is "generally accepted by Western historians".
(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.TAB1.1.GIF)
(note, you have to add the three 000's to the #'s cited as is shown)
source: Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917
By R.J. Rummel
New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1990
I calculate that the Communist regime, 1917-1987, murdered about 62,000,000 people, around 55,000,000 of them citizens
(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.FIG1.6.GIF)
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Lets face facts here people.
No matter who launches what, and where. a SINGLE nuke device blowing up would put this planet into another ice age.
Or worse, it would make this place a wasteland.
This must be the most uninformed statement I have read on this BBS, and I have read quite a few. How can anyone actually believe this? Does it take an effort to be that stupid? :huh
-
Originally posted by Viking
This must be the most uninformed statement I have read on this BBS, and I have read quite a few. How can anyone actually believe this? Does it take an effort to be that stupid? :huh
Well one would lead to another, would lead to another, would lead to another and so on and so and so.....
Any idiot can see this.
-
That's not what he meant and any idiot can see that. Even you MiloMoron.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Every map in Soviet times had a line of "border of USSR Arctic posessions". It included North Pole.
Evidently you guys missed this on the first page. That settles it.
:rofl :aok
-
Originally posted by Viking
Mr. BaDkaRmA, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
-
Furball, not exactly an accurate quotation, but it does capture the gist of it.
-
Did Stalin ever murder anybody? After all, it is yet not known that even Hitler killed anybody.
(personally)
-
It is from a film called Billy Madison, GS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATRYWIJOdSQ
-
Ah ... never saw it.
-
The put down just reminded me of it ;)
-
lol :D
-
Will Russia own the northern half of Earth's magnetic field once its pole drifts into Russian territory?
Scientific archives of the magnetic pole's Canadian era will probably have to be revised...
-
4 pages in, who owns what?
-
Did the Russians build the Pyramids?
-
Russia is connected to the sea, which is connected to everything. So Russia owns everything.
-
Originally posted by Tango
Did the Russians build the Pyramids?
How did you know?!
-
Originally posted by Furball
Russia is connected to the sea, which is connected to everything. So Russia owns everything.
Great example of propaganda and brain washing - mix of truth and lie!
Yes, it's true that Russia owns everything, but it is not because of connection to the sea.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Beware of putting your words in my mouth.
Masherbrum, you have enough arguments talking to me, don't go down to such things.
Our ability to demolish any aggressor is an only warranty against any war. C'mon, go for it, a pre-emptive nuclear strike is written in our military doctrine. You wanted it - you got it. We are unable and not interested in large-scale conventional war, so we state it bold: aggressors will be burnt by our Strategic Missile Corps. So it goes. Now keep mumbling about your "victory in cold war".
What you got is a much more dangerous opponent. We have the guts for a massive launch. It's easier to burn you all (as you planned to do to us) then to send our troops to persuade Europeans again. Euros are aquainted to Russian "invaders". Since mid-1700s. You guys are too easy to forget Russian task-forces to help you... You, personally, probably don't remember that John Paul Jones was a Russian Navy admiral.
Putting words in your mouth? Is that what you call it? The former USSR is in NO condition to start a war, especially one over water. Frozen or unfrozen, it is water.
As for John Paul Jones, he repulsed the Ottoman Navy and you guys managed to piss him off.
You suffer from delusion. Only thing on this planet that Russia is good for, is the Annual Ejection Seat Demonstration.
-
Originally posted by Tango
Did the Russians build the Pyramids?
Yes, the Russians assimilated Al Gore.
-
BTW Vad, and Boroda, thanks for taking my bait. It's always fun. <
>
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
BTW Vad, and Boroda, thanks for taking my bait. It's always fun. <>
Fail is scored.
-
Originally posted by Vad
Great example of propaganda and brain washing - mix of truth and lie!
Yes, it's true that Russia owns everything, but it is not because of connection to the sea.
OMG! is it... the AIR?!
-
FurrBall, viking, eat it.
You clowns do not know a nuke from a fire cracker.
And like stated below you, yes one would lead to another and another. "kinda go's without saying granted every film/book/movie SHOWS probably hundreds of nukes being launched."
Right now if we sent a nuke to wherever, our allies.. our enemy everyone WITH nukes would start launching. "NO QUESTIONS ASKED"
Nukes nowa' days are planet killers, no one gets out alive.
Remember the ultimate deturant? If i cant have it, no one can.
You think a nuke war would end with just ONE being launched?
"Can you read between the lines?"
My didunt understaning why me is teh disliked by burbie mahbie him dont think me edumacated enuff to speakin' so he can become the understanding.
My failing of teh english, unpossible!
your the great furbie. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Furball
OMG! is it... the AIR?!
No.
You have one more try.
-
Is it wrong to drink American Vodka in a Russian glass?
(http://www.sidesconsulting.com/misc/vodka.jpg)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Is it wrong to drink American Vodka in a Russian glass?
There is no such thing on the planet like "American vodka".
If it's American, it's not Vodka.
If it's Vodka it's not American.
Believe me, I 'm specialist.
BTW, the best vodka isn't Russian vodka, in Poland they make it much better.
-
Originally posted by Vad
No.
You have one more try.
I dont know. But this is more important than nukes and world ownership: i have heard that all the men are ugly in Russia because all the young men were killed during WWII, and so there is all these russian hot women going about and no men for them.
Can you confirm this? May explain how Wolfala bagged a hottie. :D
-
Originally posted by Furball
I dont know. But this is more important than nukes and world ownership: i have heard that all the men are ugly in Russia because all the young men were killed during WWII, and so there is all these russian hot women going about and no men for them.
Can you confirm this? May explain how Wolfala bagged a hottie. :D
Is it troll, or you are serious?
Sorry, my English is not good enough to see the difference.
-
I am joking, but i did hear that on a TV program called 'Dom Joly's Happy Hour' from a Russian woman.
-
Originally posted by Furball
I am joking, but i did hear that on a TV program called 'Dom Joly's Happy Hour' from a Russian woman.
Actually, it's very interesting topic...
I wouldn't call us "ugly" (:))but yes, the majority of Russian men are not Allen Delons for sure. And it's strange a little bit, usually north nations have nice men and ugly women.
I don't think that it's because of WW2, most likely it 's tatar's and mongol's blood.
-
Yup, but even the hot russians are kinda smurfy.
i dont know why, they just have that "Other other other other white meat" look to them. I think its the redness around the nose/eyes/ears that just says "this meat is sick, stay away from her."
Probably just me, ahh hell ill be honest, i do not like any of you.
1-10 you all suck.
:aok "Just kidding for offensive sake, but no..i am not" :t
-
I can see why it will be the "bear" who begins the end of the world, as it says in the Bible.
And aboot that "You are new, so you should wait this one out", experience in the game has no matter in this topic, it is expirience and knowledge in real life that is more credible in this topic.
And yes, America and South Korea won the Korean war. Otherwise, it would be one country, with no freedom.
Russia does not own everything, no matter what they think. For no one owns me. Nor shall any other country ever take the US.
And yes, yall over there are still commies, and totalarian dictators, I don't care how you try to cover it up. Putin has everyone in his country under his thumb, he wouldn't hesitate an instant to kill millions of his own people, if it meant he would be more powerfull. Dictators and murderers are not great leaders, the great leaders are those who save everybody and lose none. Or who resolve conflicts without arms, but through diplomatic measures, only resorting to arms when necessary.
And yes, you can have American vodka, as vodka is made from rotten potatoes. It doesn't matter where it's made, it's still vodka.
And as for
Originally posted by Vad
Great example of propaganda and brain washing - mix of truth and lie!
Yes, it's true that Russia owns everything, but it is not because of connection to the sea.
You're right, Russians know what brainwashing and propaganda really are, you've been using those for so long.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
I can see why it will be the "bear" who begins the end of the world, as it says in the Bible.
And aboot that "You are new, so you should wait this one out", experience in the game has no matter in this topic, it is expirience and knowledge in real life that is more credible in this topic.
And yes, America and South Korea won the Korean war. Otherwise, it would be one country, with no freedom.
Russia does not own everything, no matter what they think. For no one owns me. Nor shall any other country ever take the US.
And yes, yall over there are still commies, and totalarian dictators, I don't care how you try to cover it up. Putin has everyone in his country under his thumb, he wouldn't hesitate an instant to kill millions of his own people, if it meant he would be more powerfull. Dictators and murderers are not great leaders, the great leaders are those who save everybody and lose none. Or who resolve conflicts without arms, but through diplomatic measures, only resorting to arms when necessary.
And yes, you can have American vodka, as vodka is made from rotten potatoes. It doesn't matter where it's made, it's still vodka.
And as for
You're right, Russians know what brainwashing and propaganda really are, you've been using those for so long.
Excellent!
You did your home work just great, kid.
Take a candy, you deserve it.
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
FurrBall, viking, eat it.
You clowns do not know a nuke from a fire cracker.
Ooh … hard talk.
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
And like stated below you, yes one would lead to another and another. "kinda go's without saying granted every film/book/movie SHOWS probably hundreds of nukes being launched."
I guess that’s why you used the word “SINGLE” instead of “hundreds”. You’re just too stupid to know the difference?
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Right now if we sent a nuke to wherever, our allies.. our enemy everyone WITH nukes would start launching. "NO QUESTIONS ASKED"
Lol! That’s complete idiocy. If you “sent” a nuke to say … Colombia … do you really think every other country with nukes is going to start launching? Do you think even ONE other country is going to commit NATIONAL SUICIDE because of it? I’ll bet two countries like Pakistan and India can have a nice little nuclear exchange amongst themselves without anyone else getting involved. You think the USA and Russia are going to start wiping each other out just because India and Pakistan are? Are you THAT dimwitted? :lol
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Nukes nowa' days are planet killers, no one gets out alive.
You were talking about nukes and firecrackers, but you don’t seem to know a nuke from even your own crack. The most powerful explosives ever made by man was made during the ‘60s; the most powerful being the Soviet 100 Megaton Tzar Bomba. A downgraded 50 Megaton version was dropped on the Novaya Zemlya Island in the Arctic Sea (interestingly close to the North Pole for this discussion) in 1961. The blast wave was still measurable on its third pass around the world.
In contrast the largest nuclear warheads still in the US missile arsenal are the 475 Kiloton W-88 warhead used on the Trident D-5 SLBM’s and the 400 Kiloton W-87 used on the land based LMG-118 Peacekeeper missile. Apart from a few 1-2 Megaton B-83 free-fall bombs still in storage, all US nuclear weapons in the Megaton-range were decommissioned during the 1990’s. Modern delivery systems are so accurate that the big Megaton weapons are no longer needed; so your notion that today’s nukes are more destructive than those of the ‘60s and ‘70s is a textbook example of utter ignorance.
More than 2430 nuclear explosives have been detonated on this planet; many in the 1-10 Megaton range … The world didn’t get appreciably colder, nor is it a wasteland.
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
You think a nuke war would end with just ONE being launched?
Depends on whether the other guy has nukes or not. If the Russians nuked Grozny, then yes the war would end with ONE being launched (unless they missed with the first one or something).
Get your head out of the Cold War paranoia; no country will commit national suicide unless someone launches massively.
-
Originally posted by Furball
Russia is connected to the sea, which is connected to everything. So Russia owns everything.
That does seem to be the gist of the argument so far...
I thought Finnish vodka was the best, mind you after a bit of Salo on black bread - anything tastes good...and I do mean anything!!!
Tronsky
-
Originally posted by Vad
Did you see "24" serial? Jack Bauer is american Stalin. He killed tens to save millions.
:rofl Quote of the month.
Reality check anyone?
-
Originally posted by Vad
Did you see "24" serial? Jack Bauer is american Stalin. He killed tens to save millions.
Originally posted by Jackal1
:rofl Quote of the month.
Reality check anyone?
I thought is was Stalin killed millions to save 10s.
-
No, Stalin killed millions to save one, HIMSELF. Maybe a few others, but not likely, and then only so he could keep ruling. Like the 40k Polish officers and civilians he had murdered at Katyn. And his best generals he had murdered for retreating. And all those USSR citizens.
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
I thought is was Stalin killed millions to save 10s.
You was wrong, of course.
Why doesn't it surprise me?
-
Originally posted by McFarland
No, Stalin killed millions to save one, HIMSELF. Maybe a few others, but not likely, and then only so he could keep ruling. Like the 40k Polish officers and civilians he had murdered at Katyn. And his best generals he had murdered for retreating. And all those USSR citizens.
He killed all of us?
Kid, you definitely have some problems with logic. May be somebody survived?
-
No, I did not say he killed everyone, but he killed millions. And he blamed the Katyn massacre on Germany and the Nazis. By "all those USSR citizens", I meant those many USSR citizens.
-
And another thing, I'm not no kid.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
And another thing, I'm not no kid.
It's hard to believe :)
-
Originally posted by McFarland
No, I did not say he killed everyone, but he killed millions.
And what? But hundreds of millions won that war and survived.
Russians were not French or Belgian, Hitler wanted to kill us all. We were "defective nation" in his eyes. Looks like somebody agree with him :)
And he blamed the Katyn massacre on Germany and the Nazis.
And what? Enemy has to be destroyed. You killed hundred of thousands in Drezden, Tokio, Hiroshima, etc.
Stalin, at least, killed military officers.
-
You have a good point there, but we regretted what we did, and tried to rebuild. You didn't. And Stalin had many of his own people assassinated and murdered, for his own benefit. And he didn't just kill military officers, and he didn't just kill the enemy.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
You have a good point there, but we regretted what we did, and tried to rebuild. You didn't. And Stalin had many of his own people assassinated and murdered, for his own benefit. And he didn't just kill military officers, and he didn't just kill the enemy.
Waste of time, you have your own view on the history of the state where you have never been, know nothing about its history, people, circumstances, etc.
Stalin killedl nobody on the US soil (may be few secret operations, but it wasn't mass murders, and US secret service did the same on the Soviet land). But you, American citizen, is trying to convince me that Stain was evil.
It's me, who was living in the USSR for 35 years, who lost half of the family in WW2, whos mother has never seen my grandfather, he was KIA in 1943 when she was 1 year old. It's me who lived under the "evil regime" as you called it. And you are trying to tell me how it was?
Anybody who has spoon of brain woudn't discuss subjects he's never seen and never tasted with person who knows them from the birth.
-
Stalin had millions killed because of their politics. Will you admit to this Vad? If you can, will you not include it in the definition of evil? Of course there is/was much evil in the world.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Stalin had millions killed because of their politics. Will you admit to this Vad?
No.
Nobody being sober would kill millions just for fun, or "politics" as you called that. Stalin wasn't idiot, do you admit that? Yes, there are some maniacs in history who did that, but not Stalin.
He had to do that, and history proved that he was right. Otherwise we wouldn't survive that war.
To explain why he had to do that will take too much time, and, frankly, I don't want to waste so much time for people who are not really interesting to know the truth. I don't have the goal to change your mind, and actually you don't want to see the both sides of the coin.
So, it looks likee kid game:
- My brother is stronger!
- Not, my brother is stronger!
- Not mine!
etc.
I know your arguments, I see them on this board and on all TV programs here in Canada. You don't know and don't want to know mine.
-
Originally posted by Vad
No.
Nobody being sober would kill millions just for fun, or "politics" as you called that. Stalin wasn't idiot, do you admit that? Yes, there are some maniacs in history who did that, but not Stalin.
He had to do that, and history proved that he was right. Otherwise we wouldn't survive that war.
To explain why he had to do that will take too much time, and, frankly, I don't want to waste so much time for people who are not really interesting to know the truth. I don't have the goal to change your mind, and actually you don't want to see the both sides of the coin.
So, it looks likee kid game:
- My brother is stronger!
- Not, my brother is stronger!
- Not mine!
etc.
I know your arguments, I see them on this board and on all TV programs here in Canada. You don't know and don't want to know mine.
Well, by "politics" I mean in this case the survival of communism as he saw it. Since I'm not Russian and base my belief on what I read, (always reserving the right to change) Stalin did kill many people to ensure the survival of communism.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Well, by "politics" I mean in this case the survival of communism as he saw it. Since I'm not Russian and base my belief on what I read, (always reserving the right to change) Stalin did kill many people to ensure the survival of communism.
It's not exactly correct.
Most of the Stalin's victims were Bolsheviks, old and loyal communists. Most of the executed high officers of the Soviet Army were heroes of Civil War and loyal communists.
Strange decision to kill all or most of all communists who actually made Revolution just to defence Communism, don't you think?
All of them were convicted as counterrevolutionaries but actually they weren't. They just saw the way how the USSR should go different. And believe me, they saw that way much worse for other countries than Stalin did.
-
Vad, it's useless. They have been told all that nonsence on TV. Look at that graphs about "soviet democide" above: it's pure and obvious nonsence, ant yet they believe that crap! 60+ millions "democided", 27millions killed in WWII - it's over 50% of total Unions' population in 1930s. I wonder how anyone still lives here.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Vad, it's useless. They have been told all that nonsence on TV. Look at that graphs about "soviet democide" above: it's pure and obvious nonsence, ant yet they believe that crap! 60+ millions "democided", 27millions killed in WWII - it's over 50% of total Unions' population in 1930s. I wonder how anyone still lives here.
Boroda, I'm just enhancing my writing English here.
BTW, I have to say I spoke with a lot of Americans and Canadians during the last 7 years. Most of them are mentally healthy people. At least they try to hear and understand before jump into dispute.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Vad, it's useless. They have been told all that nonsence on TV. Look at that graphs about "soviet democide" above: it's pure and obvious nonsence, ant yet they believe that crap! 60+ millions "democided", 27millions killed in WWII - it's over 50% of total Unions' population in 1930s. I wonder how anyone still lives here.
Remind me to "dumb it down" for Boroda next time I am drawn into one of the waste of time threads. (waste of time = you can't overcome stupid)
The graph totals were for an almost 40 year span of time. I gave refrences, and the source. I have as of yet to see ANYTHING posted by you Boroda that can be cross checked and validiated.
Here is an interesting break down from both extremes. Note that it includes names, and sources Boroda...
# Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000
There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating.
The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
+ Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
+ Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
+ Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
o Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
o Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
+ 1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
+ 1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
+ 1939-45: 18,157,000
+ 1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
+ TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
o William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
o Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
+ Cited by Wallechinsky:
# Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
# Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
o MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
* And from the Lower Numbers school:
o Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
o Cited in Nove:
+ Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
+ Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
+ Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
o Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
o Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
o MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
* As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The
Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
* Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
o In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
o Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
o Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
o Daniel Chirot:
+ "Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
+ "Highest": 40M
+ Citing:
# Conquest: 20M
# Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
# Medvedev: 40M
o Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
+ Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
+ [Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]
o John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
+ Kulaks: 7M
+ Gulag: 12M
+ Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)
o Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
o Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
o Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
* AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
* Individual Gulags etc.
o Kolyma
o Kuropaty
o Vorkuta
o Bykivnia
* Famine, 1926-38
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 4.2M in Ukraine + 1.7M in Kazakhstan
o Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
+ Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
+ Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
+ Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
+ Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
+ Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
+ Conquest:
# Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
# 1932-33: 7M
# Ukraine: 5M
Source: 30 Worst Attrocities of the 20th Century (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/560855/posts)
More good reading for Boroda (not that he will of course).
Antonov-Ovseyenko, Anton (1981). The Time of Stalin: portrait of a tyranny. New York, NY: Harper & Row, Publishers.
Berthon, Simon and Potts, Joanna (2006). Warlords: an extraordinary re-creation of World War II through the eyes and minds of Hitler, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin. United Kingdom: Da Capo Press.
Conquest, Robert (1991). Stalin: breaker of nations. New York, NY: Penguin Group.
AND if Boroda REALLY wan't to learn/understand what is being discussed here (Democide) please check out This Web Site (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/) This is R. J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus at the Univerisity of Hawaii's website, and is a wealth of information.
Granted, I totally understand that you would rather ignore the facts that are being presented in my posts. Much easier to pretend to have a greater understanding of the subject at hand than the dozens of people I have cited in this post, but you would be sadly mistaken.
-
Originally posted by WMLute
Skipped to save traffic...
Granted, I totally understand that you would rather ignore the facts that are being presented in my posts. Much easier to pretend to have a greater understanding of the subject at hand than the dozens of people I have cited in this post, but you would be sadly mistaken.
There are a lot of "facts" in your post. Problem is that you prefer to believe to "high number school", and we know that "low number school" is right.
Do you feel the difference? You believe , we know.
From your "facts":
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Take this as the fact, and forget about Solzhenitsyn, he wrote that in immigration being on welfare from the US goverment.
-
Originally posted by Vad
He killed all of us?
Kid, you definitely have some problems with logic. May be somebody survived?
Some advice, try not to be pedantic over words if you cannot fully grasp the language. You end up looking silly.
-
WMLute, it is hard convince anyone when they are so deeply brainwashed.;)
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Some advice, try not to be pedantic over words if you cannot fully grasp the language. You end up looking silly.
Thank you, I will try.
Ok, if you learn something it 's not a shame to look silly, you will be anyway.
Could you be so kind, help me with other posts. What else I shouldn't take literally? 60 millions killed by Stalin? "Best generals Stalin had murdered for retreating"? One nuke which will kill the whole planet? Bear who begins the end of the world?
Thank you.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
You end up looking silly.
I wonder how many foreign forums you have visited and practiced language that is not English? Based on some 'english' I read from Americans, they should take your advice...
-
Originally posted by Vad
There are a lot of "facts" in your post. Problem is that you prefer to believe to "high number school", and we know that "low number school" is right.
Do you feel the difference? You believe , we know.
From your "facts":
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Take this as the fact, and forget about Solzhenitsyn, he wrote that in immigration being on welfare from the US goverment.
o Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
o Cited in Nove:
+ Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
+ Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
+ Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
So you then agree with Alec Nove that the figured killed by Stallin then would be @9,500,000? Being one of the "low end" people?
I don't quite understand why you just cite one single source of Nove's as opposed to the whole.
-
Originally posted by Russian
I wonder how many foreign forums you have visited and practiced language that is not English? Based on some 'english' I read from Americans, they should take your advice...
If I visit a foreign forum or forum language I don't try and be smart and be pedantic... big difference.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
If I visit a foreign forum or forum language I don't try and be smart and be pedantic... big difference.
So you have a problem with people that have been part of AcesHigh forum longer than you and have a different opinion? Wow, pedantic indeed...
-
Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, I will try.
Ok, if you learn something it 's not a shame to look silly, you will be anyway.
Could you be so kind, help me with other posts. What else I shouldn't take literally? "Best generals Stalin had murdered for retreating"? Bear who begins the end of the world?
Thank you.
All the above are true. At the start of WWII, Stalin and Hitler were allied. When attacking one of the European countries, Stalin's best generals decided to retreat, thus keeping the troops alive and they were able to regroup and win. The result of their retreat however, was that Stalin had them executed for retreating.
There is a quote in the Bible (unless you're so ignorant you don't beleive it is real), which states that the first to attack Israel will be the bear. Russia's symbol is the bear.
-
Originally posted by WMLute
So you then agree with Alec Nove that the figured killed by Stallin then would be @9,500,000? Being one of the "low end" people?
I don't quite understand why you just cite one single source of Nove's as opposed to the whole.
I don't need to choose any sources from your list. Your sources may be had some sense tens years ago, but now they are useless.
Archives are open, and everybody can access them and see the real numbers.
According archives during 1930-1953 3.778.234 were accused, 786.098 were executed.
You can believe it or not but archives are only valid sources which can be used in this case. Any speculations about 'fake' data are just stupid - what was the sense to keep archives closed if they had fake datas? And any historian knows, it's almost impossible to fake that datas. These numbers should be in correspondence with a lot of other datas: how much money were spent to feed prisoners, accounting, transport, number of guards, etc. Too much should be faked...
-
Originally posted by Vad
I don't need to choose any sources from your list. Your sources may be had some sense tens years ago, but now they are useless.
Archives are open, and everybody can access them and see the real numbers.
According archives during 1930-1953 3.778.234 were accused, 786.098 were executed.
You can believe it or not but archives are only valid sources which can be used in this case. Any speculations about 'fake' data are just stupid - what was the sense to keep archives closed if they had fake datas? And any historian knows, it's almost impossible to fake that datas. These numbers should be in correspondence with a lot of other datas: how much money were spent to feed prisoners, accounting, transport, number of guards, etc. Too much should be faked...
Oh, I have no doubt that roughly 786,098 state prisoners were shot and killed.
Now let's agree on how many counterrevolutionaries were shot.
And how many died from hunger, in camps, and prisons.
And all of the other "abnormal" deaths during that time period.
Or are you trying to say that Stalin ONLY killed 786,098 state prisoners and nobody else died?
And how are the archives the ONLY valid source again? Explain THAT one to me. (bearing in mind that many, if not all of the experts I cited have access to, and have studied said archives)
Also, do tell how you know that "low number school" is right.
Please let me know what exactly qualifies you as an "expert" in this field. I am very curious where you studied, what degrees you have in this field, and what you have published on this subject. Please enlighten me.
Bear in mind, I don't say I am an expert, but I CITED experts in this field of study. Many of them. Most all of them seem to think that 20,000,000 is the "accepted" number of people that Stallin killed.
Do tell why they are wrong and you are right. I'm sure they will be heartbroken that somebody on a WW2 flight sim BBS is knows more about their field of study than they do.
-
Originally posted by WMLute
Oh, I have no doubt that roughly 786,098 state prisoners were shot and killed.
Ok, much better.
Now let's agree on how many counterrevolutionaries were shot.
And how many died from hunger, in camps, and prisons.
I don't know that numbers.
Even if all of that almost 3 millions. It's much less than 60 millions.
And all of the other "abnormal" deaths during that time period.
Or are you trying to say that Stalin ONLY killed 786,098 state prisoners and nobody else died?
You want to say that in the USA nobody died during 1930-1953?
Yes, ied a lot. 27 millions were killed in WW2. But we are talking about deaths Stalin was responcible for.
And how are the archives the ONLY valid source again? Explain THAT one to me. (bearing in mind that many, if not all of the experts I cited have access to, and have studied said archives)
Also, do tell how you
Please let me know what exactly qualifies you as an "expert" in this field. I am very curious where you studied, what degrees you have in this field, and what you have published on this subject. Please enlighten me.
Bear in mind, I don't say I am an expert, but I CITED experts in this field of study. Many of them. Most all of them seem to think that 20,000,000 is the "accepted" number of people that Stallin killed.
Do tell why they are wrong and you are right. I'm sure they will be heartbroken that somebody on a WW2 flight sim BBS is knows more about their field of study than they do.
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
And there is no other sources of historical data but documents and archives. Anything else are just dreams, speculations, politics and propaganda. I don't care in what your 'experts' believe, I believe only in documents and my own eyes.
Type '3778234' (we don't use dots in numbers) in Google, you will get a lot of references in Russian. All of them are about the subject we are discussing. It will be much more "sources" than you have provided.
-
Originally posted by Russian
So you have a problem with people that have been part of AcesHigh forum longer than you and have a different opinion? Wow, pedantic indeed...
No... if I visit a forum where the language is not my first language I don't make smart-prettythang remarks about word pedantics.
What about that do you not understand?
No speakeee english = keep your posts simple. Don't try to play on words. Get the idea yet russian?
Vad tried to be smart and looked a fool because his play on the words was completely irrelevant. If I did the same on a russian forum I'd expect someone to smoke me for it too.
-
Originally posted by Vad
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
How old are you Vad?
-
Originally posted by Vad
Ok, much better.
Now let's agree on how many counterrevolutionaries were shot.
I don't know that numbers.
Even if all of that almost 3 millions. It's much less than 60 millions.
You want to say that in the USA nobody died during 1930-1953?
Yes, ied a lot. 27 millions were killed in WW2. But we are talking about deaths Stalin was responcible for.
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
And there is no other sources of historical data but documents and archives. Anything else are just dreams, speculations, politics and propaganda. I don't care in what your 'experts' believe, I believe only in documents and my own eyes.
Type '3778234' (we don't use dots in numbers) in Google, you will get a lot of references in Russian. All of them are about the subject we are discussing. It will be much more "sources" than you have provided.
I googled 3778234 as you suggested. Thanks for that. If anything, if I am reading the translations correctly, it backs up my point of view. Thank you.
I was watching a T.V. show where they walked up to a random person in the street here in the U.S. and asked them what day did the 911 World Trade Center attack happen on. Amazingly to me, MANY of them could not come up with Sept. eleventh. (9/11)
There were in the U.S. when it happened. They are "from" here. They should know more than somebody not from the U.S. by your line of thinking.
My point is this. Just because you live there, doesn't mean you are not an idiot, or have a clue what you are talking about. The average person is a moron.
Now give me something SCHOLARLY. Not a bunch of idiots on forums debating. Give me published data. Give me books written. Cite sources. Show me PROOF, not some weak links to BBS's full of average idiots spouting out opinions on subjects they really have no idea about.
I asked you to explain why you seem to be better qualified than the people I cited.
Your reply was
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
Many of my sources are not only Russian, but are experts in this field, which obviously you are not.
By the way, the 60 million figure was over a period of time. Do I HAVE to explain how to read a simple graph to you?
The reply "because I lived there and I would have noticed" is not only a horribly reply, but as I showed with the 911 anecdote, does not make me believe you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. "Because I said so" is not a response that will win a round during a debate.
Actually, the more I read from you and Boroda, the more obvious it is to me just how little you know.
I wanted a scholarly debate. Instead it is like I am debating a child. If I wanted to debate an idiot, I can go to any bar around here, bring up politics, and get my fill of people who don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about.
IF you are able (I would say willing but nothing you have posted shows me you have the slightest ability to hold up your end of the argument so I will go with "able") to debate this topic in a scholarly mannor, I would be happy to continue.
In order to do so you must cite sources. Give me quotes. Names. Backgrounds. Credentials. Dates. Publishers. Journals.
Back up your point of view with empirical data.
So far you have done nothing of the sort.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
If I did the same on a russian forum I'd expect someone to smoke me for it too.
You'd be surprised but that's only your hospitality you speak of. Russian flight simulator forumers enjoy company of others with different opinions. I guess 'diversity education' failed miserable...
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
What about that do you not understand?
No speakeee english = keep your posts simple. Don't try to play on words. Get the idea yet russian?
Vad tried to be smart and looked a fool because his play on the words was completely irrelevant. If I did the same on a russian forum I'd expect someone to smoke me for it too.
I've been living and working in Canada for 7 years. Simple English is not what I'm looking for.
I'm very sorry for murdering your language.
And I would be very thankful for corrections. I am not kidding, I'm serious. Don't mind typing, mostly phrases and using words.
:)
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
How old are you Vad?
Don't get why are you asking but ok.
I'm 42.
-
Originally posted by WMLute
I googled 3778234 as you suggested. Thanks for that. If anything, if I am reading the translations correctly, it backs up my point of view. Thank you.
I was watching a T.V. show where they walked up to a random person in the street here in the U.S. and asked them what day did the 911 World Trade Center attack happen on. Amazingly to me, MANY of them could not come up with Sept. eleventh. (9/11)
There were in the U.S. when it happened. They are "from" here. They should know more than somebody not from the U.S. by your line of thinking.
My point is this. Just because you live there, doesn't mean you are not an idiot, or have a clue what you are talking about. The average person is a moron.
Now give me something SCHOLARLY. Not a bunch of idiots on forums debating. Give me published data. Give me books written. Cite sources. Show me PROOF, not some weak links to BBS's full of average idiots spouting out opinions on subjects they really have no idea about.
I asked you to explain why you seem to be better qualified than the people I cited.
Your reply was
Many of my sources are not only Russian, but are experts in this field, which obviously you are not.
By the way, the 60 million figure was over a period of time. Do I HAVE to explain how to read a simple graph to you?
The reply "because I lived there and I would have noticed" is not only a horribly reply, but as I showed with the 911 anecdote, does not make me believe you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. "Because I said so" is not a response that will win a round during a debate.
Actually, the more I read from you and Boroda, the more obvious it is to me just how little you know.
I wanted a scholarly debate. Instead it is like I am debating a child. If I wanted to debate an idiot, I can go to any bar around here, bring up politics, and get my fill of people who don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about.
IF you are able (I would say willing but nothing you have posted shows me you have the slightest ability to hold up your end of the argument so I will go with "able") to debate this topic in a scholarly mannor, I would be happy to continue.
In order to do so you must cite sources. Give me quotes. Names. Backgrounds. Credentials. Dates. Publishers. Journals.
Back up your point of view with empirical data.
So far you have done nothing of the sort.
Sorry, but sometimes I don't understand you guys....
These are the quotes, names, backgrounds, credentials, dates, publishers, journals.
http://www.rusarchives.ru/federal/rgae/nsa1.shtml
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2003/0103/analit01.php
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/7231/repress.htm
http://www.teacher.syktsu.ru/02/liter/047.htm
It's not my problem that you don't understand Russain. It's not my problem that Central Archive of Russia doesn't translate all that documents in English. We, me and Boroda, tried to do that for you to help you with Russian but instead of just say "thank you" you blame us... ok, it's irrelevant.
-
Originally posted by Vad
Don't get why are you asking but ok.
I'm 42.
You probably didn't notice how many died during Stalin's rule because you weren't born yet. I'm 44 and I wouldn't have noticed how many Americans died during WWII simply because my parents had just been born in 1942. They hadn't even met each other yet when Stalin bought the farm. :)
-
Vad, if you are 42, you were not even born during WWII, when many of Stalin's massacres occurred. And how do we know that the documents aboot how many people he killed weren't "corrected" in the 50+ years till they were declassified? That's plenty of time to "correct" documents, now don't you think? And he himself said that Ivan the Terrible killed many Bolsheviks, and none of them were remembered at that time, so he could do the same, and in the next hundred years, who would care? When the bodies were found, people would no longer care aboot them. And yes, he is quoted saying this. Read the book Warlords, it has many actual letters and quotes from the great leaders during WWII, and their thoughts and ways of thinking. Stalin was cold blooded as they come. Only Hitler even rivals him in that aspect.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
You probably didn't notice how many died during Stalin's rule because you weren't born yet. I'm 44 and I wouldn't have noticed how many Americans died during WWII simply because my parents had just been born in 1942. They hadn't even met each other yet when Stalin bought the farm. :)
I know that you woudn't have noticed. America lost just few hundreds of thousands..
Could you imagine what does it mean - 27 millions lost? No, you can't.
It means that when I was 10 years old all of my family gathered together to celebrate New Year (Christmas, as you call it). And in that table I saw 10 women and 5 men. 2 of them were invalid, no legs or hands.
My father has never talked about that war, he tried to forget that nightmare. He was born in 1942 too. From the village where he lived 200 men went to the war. 2 returns. 2 (two). Can you imagine how it looks like? 150 homes, small village in the middle of nowhere. At least 150 women who will never see any men but that two. And that teenagers my father happened to be...
Oh, you will never understand that....
-
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?
Hard to understand such things for me.
The War is a dividing line for our country. "before the War" and "after the War". My family: Grand-Father, born in 1889, served in cavalry during WWI, in low ranks, then fought in Red Army, got "purged" in 1932 as a member of a "Czar's officers coup", then released in 1934, all charges dropped. Didn't serve in GPW. One Great-Grand Father was executed for "sabotage" on his railway line in 1939 ... One of his sons died of typhus in 1933 during the Ukrainian "famine" - he just graduated from university... Yougest son was killed in April 1945 at Koenigsberg, he was only 17 years old... One Grand-Uncle killed in 1941 (he was an officer), another, a colonel, got captured by nazis in 1942 near Kharkov, spent almost 2 years in concentration camp, then managed to escape, worked at the farm until Americans came in 1945 (he was in Western Germany). Another Grand-Father served in Guards Mortar Corps since 1941, then served in artillery college teaching students to operate BM-13 launchers. Another Grand-Uncle was a Cossack officer during WWI, volunteered in 1941 as a private, went all the way to Germany 1945. Shoud I continue this list? I was born in 1972, and never saw most of this people, but they are my Family. And I was born in Leningrad, were many neighbours and friends remember the Siege, believe me, such things are hard to forget.
You see, my famlily members were "repressed", while being loyal to the regime... I don't say there were no "purges", it was a horrible time, but think about one fact: in 1940 there were less people in prisons and labour camps in the whole USSR then in new "democratic" Russia (halp the population of the Union) in 1999.
An interesting observation: in any thread discussing Russia on the third page someone switches to "bloody Stalin" (tm). Seems like a total lack of arguments from "blue side" :(
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?
Is someone stopping you asking older than you those questions; Grandparents or neighbors? I've talked to many people that lived through Stalin/WW2 times and guess what? History that you learned in colleges/high schools/ universities present a great comedy act and nothing more. I still remember laughing my bellybutton off while professor talked about 'russian history'...
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?
It's very difficult not to notice loss of 27 millions, even 20 years after the war.
Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc.
And all your friends around ask their parents the same questions. Because there is no one in the whole country who didn't lose somebody on that war.
-
It's sad when you have lived under that rule so long you can't even think that Stalin was evil. That many of the people were killed by him, or his secret service, and you think he did right to kill them.
Originally posted by Boroda
One Great-Grand Father was executed for "sabotage" on his railway line in 1939
And you don't even think that was wrong and evil of them? If someone killed any member of me family, I don't care if it was the govment, I would call to arms me entire family, and with them or without them, I would hunt down the people who did it and make sure they paid. Even if I died in the process, I would take several of them with me. Stalin was evil to kill that many people.
-
Originally posted by Vad
Don't get why are you asking but ok.
I'm 42.
Ohhh I don't know.... born in 1965 right?...
Originally posted by Vad
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
Can you see my point?
-
Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc
That wouldn't have been me.....I was adopted and have never met my biological family. :)
*edit* Well....I am told that I was taken from my biological parents when I was 3 and that I did visit them a few times after that, but I have no memories of it.
-
Boroda I can understand that. Yet it would still be difficult to see the *big picture* to total numbers that died don't you think? Heck, it's difficult to imagine 1 million people, let alone up to 60 million dieing. (I'm not saying 60 million died during Stalin's rule because we may never now the exact count. Even those who are *experts* tend to disagree on the exact count)
Even when I look at this stadium: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big10/Michigan/aerial.jpg&imgrefurl=http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big10/Michigan/index.htm&h=372&w=500&sz=92&tbnid=ynKOTKFxtuNQrM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichigan%2Bstadium%26um%3D1&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3 and think....multiply by 10 for 1 million, its STILL hard to picture that many people.
The only relative I have that served during WWII died before I was born. That was my adoptive mothers father, my grandfather.
-
Those antibalistic missile, are not proved yet to work , lot of money wasted useles on the program and mostly failure tests, and low % of interception,
If the fanatic islamists get a nuke , they won't deliver it with sophisticated balistic missile
Bush idea to instal those missile in East Europe is stiring up the russians ,wich find themself anyway georgafic and economic isolated since EU expanded to east ,
But , maybe that's what Bush and other iluminati want: push the EU in a war, and eliminate the competition,
-
Originally posted by McFarland
It's sad when you have lived under that rule so long you can't even think that Stalin was evil. That many of the people were killed by him, or his secret service, and you think he did right to kill them.
And you don't even think that was wrong and evil of them? If someone killed any member of me family, I don't care if it was the govment, I would call to arms me entire family, and with them or without them, I would hunt down the people who did it and make sure they paid. Even if I died in the process, I would take several of them with me. Stalin was evil to kill that many people.
I am a Stalinist, but my meaning of this term is absolutely different from yours.
Great-Grand Father was sentenced to "10 years wihout the right to correspondence" in 1939... There was a train crash on his railway line, not his fault, but he was in charge... It was a horrible time, and I don;t want such things to repeat. USSR was desperately preparing for an upcoming war, Non-Aggession Treaty didn't fool anyone. Stalin made a miracle, with an agricultural country destroyed by WWI and Civil War, where only about 10% of the population was literate, turning it into a world-class industrial power capable of fighting a war with a most advanced army in the world, backed up by half of the Western World and winning it. And the stakes were as high as a survival of the whole nation, so please don't repeat that bull**** about Stalin fighting for his own power.
Sorry too busy to continue :(
-
Originally posted by Vad
It's very difficult not to notice loss of 27 millions, even 20 years after the war.
Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc.
And all your friends around ask their parents the same questions. Because there is no one in the whole country who didn't lose somebody on that war.
You're contradicting yourself now.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
You're contradicting yourself now.
No, I'm not. You are wrong.
PS:
Simple statements without explonations don't have much sense.
My point was: it's impossible to oversight the loss of 27 millions, even after 20 years. I didn't notice a serious losses due to Stailn's purge, so the numbers were much less than 27 millions. Much more less.
-
Originally posted by Vad
No, I'm not. You are wrong.
PS:
Simple statements without explonations don't have much sense.
My point was: it's impossible to oversight the loss of 27 millions, even after 20 years. I didn't notice a serious losses due to Stailn's purge, so the numbers were much less than 27 millions. Much more less.
OK lets look at what you did say:
Originally posted by Vad
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
..............
You see, my famlily members were "repressed", while being loyal to the regime
..............
It's very difficult not to notice loss of 27 millions, even 20 years after the war.
Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc.
And all your friends around ask their parents the same questions. Because there is no one in the whole country who didn't lose somebody on that war.
I'm expecting a scorpion bite any second now...
edit: p.s. I'm sure you would've noticed the loss of 27 million 20 years after the war, on your day of birth....
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
OK lets look at what you did say:
I'm expecting a scorpion bite any second now...
edit: p.s. I'm sure you would've noticed the loss of 27 million 20 years after the war, on your day of birth....
You quoted from the posts of different people.
This way anything can be "proved".
-
Originally posted by WMLute
(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.TAB1.1.GIF)
Looks like I found one of the "reliable sources" for this bull****:
(http://foto.mail.ru/mail/serega_barinov/_answers/i-810.jpg)
Nothing new, everything was invented by dr. Goebbels.