Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: AKKaz on June 29, 2007, 10:47:46 PM
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Why after all the FSO's did this one have no formation of buffs? With all the 30mm on axis and the setup late in the war, why wouldn't the allies have large numbers of buffs in the air?
I might be mistaken, but this scenerio is set later in the war than the mighty 8th and the 15th northern italy, just wonderin why the buff count went down on this one.
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Formations need to be turned back on for this Blitz scenario. Axis has to many HI PERFORMANCE PLANES WITH BIG GUNS. A few burst from a 109k4 takes out a bomber with ease. Bombers were 20-24k and the axis planes had no trouble flying that high like the 1 FSO that had the MW planeset in it. This a LW setup and should have formations enabled here.
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Feel bad here. Our group tried our darndest to keep you guys alive, fun fight but man, we got kicked hard :(
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Yeah our Buff's made it to our target and was able to make a second pass and take out every hanger at A22, thanks to the help of ~FATE~ squad, but on our egress we were slaughtered, not one of us was able to take down a 190, we got a couple smoking but there was no way to take one down with a single buff.
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It was actually pretty hard to keep with the buffs at that alt, or catch back up after fighting off the axis planes. They dove in from 30k or so...we were around 27-28, but by the time we got back around on em they were already on the bombers. Many paid for it, but not before the damage was done.
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56th just came into 22 we where bored and needed to do something to do so we strafed up the last 3 ord bunkers and the Dar. Then got jumped by 10 190s, was the only action we saw all frame.
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We were assigned Mosquitos for our strike. Dunno about the others.
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I guess I really didn't respond to the original question, did I :)
From my point of view, I think formations would have given us a better shot. But frankly, that is kind of irrelevant.
The event design didn't call for them, we were given a task to complete and the tools to complete it. Sometimes we simply have to work with what we have and plan accordingly.
War is hell, to steal a popular phrase.
What we Could have have or Should have is pure speculation, and the events tend to spend too much time in this area. I don't waste alot of time worrying about what we could have had, we Don't have formations, so need to act accordingly.
Sometimes armies were sent in with bayonets against tanks. Sometimes, the bayonets won ;)
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My guess is the 'no formation' rule was to keep 60 234s from swarming the Allied fields, but you'll have to ask Nomde.
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Well they could always give us Allies formation, and not give them to Axis;)
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Nah ROC, there was noway to defend on this one. You guys did a great job in escort. But with the late plane set and the fire power of 20 and 30mm loadouts, more axis fighters than ally buffs in the air, all it takes is one pass with a couple of hits to take out the buffs.
Unless they decide to turn to dogfight after the merge, it is all but over for a bomber. With something like this, you would almost need a 2 escort per buff, and that type of numbers isn't possible.
But the main question still remains, with the scenerio setup of being this late in the war, it doesn't seem to follow along not only with any historical value, but also doesn't follow the trend of previous setups.
The FSO buildup time frame prior to this (invading mainland europe, movving forward to germany and italy) used time period planesets and formations. With this late in the war, utilizing time frame planesets, why all of a sudden pull formations out of the set? In all lead ups to this FSO, formations were used in pushing into europe and moving on to germany. Now its Feb 1945 and nmy fighters outnumber buffs?
Don't get me wrong, but when things don't seem to fit I have to ask. I asked when the ceiling cap for buffs was drastically changed when it wasn't before, and I have to ask why this changed. Maybe I'm seeing this wrongly, and if so I do apologize. But I had to ask the question.
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Originally posted by Virage
My guess is the 'no formation' rule was to keep 60 234s from swarming the Allied fields, but you'll have to ask Nomde.
That is basically correct. Unfortunately we don't have the option of only turning formations off for 234's.
If formations were enabled, my guess is, this thread would be "Why do the 234's get formations!". And we would be complaining that no one is able to catch 60 234's at 25K doing 450mph+. :)
It will be Nomde's call on any changes.
Personally I think we should just run it as is, maybe less targets, but that is it.
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Originally posted by trax1
Well they could always give us Allies formation, and not give them to Axis;)
Sorry, formations are on or off.
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Originally posted by ROC
Sometimes armies were sent in with bayonets against tanks...
Uh oh, don't be giving our FSO designers any ideas here...! ;)
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Who cares if they have formations? if you catch them, its just more to shoot down, their defensive guns are close to useless and they cant dogfight. Give em formations, and limit the # of squads that can use them.
Arados are like a very fast Boston III.
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Originally posted by SLED
Personally I think we should just run it as is, maybe less targets, but that is it.
I'm with you Sled.
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What about turning formations on, but telling the squad(s) with Arados not to use them? As a trade-off there could be an altitude cap for the Allied buffs of 20-25k. The drawback of this is that it relies on an "honor-code" type system. The pilots themselves are in chare of making sure they don't break the rules and up a formation of jets or bomb from 28k.
Of course we could always keep it the way it is now and the buff pilots will just have to fly in tight formation (which actually makes it a bit more realistic for them if you think about it). The one good thing about formations off is that it doesn't wreck the framerate of anyone attacking the bombers.
Also, who do I have to bribe to get a few Ta 152Hs for JG11 to fly?
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I think formations should be on. If the concern is 60 formation of Arado's then limit them.
It is no fun flying a single buff just to get shot down by some LW cannon's. With 3 at least they have a chance. Besides 80% of the FSO players want to be in a fighter. With buff formations they can have a chance to fly a bit longer with their squadies as gunners which sure beats sitting in the tower or logging off to the MA.
It is a fun factor gents. Turn on the buff formations.
My two cents.
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Originally posted by Virage
My guess is the 'no formation' rule was to keep 60 234s from swarming the Allied fields, but you'll have to ask Nomde.
This'd be my guess too. Even with Tempests to chase them down--which you did quite nicely btw-- they'd be quickly overwhelmed by sheer numbers of them if formations were on. I only had 9 apiece hit 9 and 66. 27 apiece would have been nice.
I'm sure my bored meat grinders on jet base defense last night would have welcomed the additional allied targets tho.
Drano
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According to the rules, the Allies only need to use 7 types per frame:
Allied Planeset
B-17G
B-24J
P-38J
P-47D-40
P-47N - Only 15 Per Frame
P-51D
Spit IX
Spit XIV
Tempest V - Only 15 Per Frame
Typhoon
Mosquito Mk VI
...so if they want to use B-24s or B-17s they can but they dont HAVE to.
That being said formations could be enabled and have them limited to the heavies, every FSO has rules.
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IMO, folks are too overly-reliant on formations. Bombers WERE historically dead meat for any attacking fighters. Even "slow" fighters were able to catch and heavily damage US bombers.
However in this game you get all guns firing on one spot (instead of just 1 position) and you get 3 planes with all their guns firing on one spot.
With 30mm you might get lucky and set something on fire with 1 ping (and hey this happened to me Thursday night!) but most of the time you have to pump most of your ammo into a single plane, and by then you're out of position unable to attack again or you're a sitting duck and his 30x 50cal (all slaved to 1 target) kill you on the spot.
You are all overly reliant on drones. So much so that the escorts weren't set up or in the right spot or whatever. I'm not laying blame, I'm just saying 1) most often the bombers get through on their own (when they have drones) and 2) because of that nobody practices close cover for bombers anymore.
Feel free to tell me I'm stupid, crazy, out of touch, whatever, but I don't think I'm wrong. Academically speaking, the bombers supplied could have got the job done easily. HOW they get the job done is where all the planning comes into play.
EDIT: Before anybody asks, I couldn't be there. Power outage right at FSO time.
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Your stupid, crazy, and out of touch....j/k
Lastnight my squad was in 24's and with no formations, so we just got in close to each other and making sure we weren't on a squadies 6 so we all had clear shots, this worked on our way to the target, but after we circled back for a second pass our formation broke up and thats when we got picked off.
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We need breathelizer checks on the escort pilots IMHO.
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Enable formations and allow the axis to decide how they fly them. Irrespective of whether the axis use formations or not, the writeup says that 234s are restricted to 20 per frame - that's aircraft, not pilots.
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The B24's esentially had a Alt cap. With the targets that had to be hit by t+60, the B24's had to do a slow rate of climb. Bombers were climbing at 160-170mph in order to get to both targets in time which kept us from getting higher then 23k Just NW of A53. I happen to be the last b24 that was mentioned earlier in the post that just got to a49 at t+59. My bomber got its wing and tail shot off just before I was able to drop on target. I just needed 5 secs longer and I would have actually hit the target.
Now we had about 21 fighter escorts with our 15 B24's. They did a outstanding job considering the odds against them. The LW planes had plenty of cannon power and performance (meaning able to get to 30K and manev at that alt). Unlike a earlier FSO (not sure which one it was) that had 190 A8's and A5's that don't before well above 24k+. All the LW planes in this FSO can catch b24's at 25k+ with ease and have the Gun package to kill them easily and still have enough for the fighter escort. This is why Formation should be enabled for this FSO, because of the performance of this planeset.
A Krusty. If we would have 300+ people in FSO's, I would support your reasoning on formations but since we only have avg of 220 give or take, That doesn't leave enough per side to support no formations for this planeset.
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Originally posted by Krusty
With 30mm you might get lucky and set something on fire with 1 ping (and hey this happened to me Thursday night!) but most of the time you have to pump most of your ammo into a single plane, and by then you're out of position unable to attack again or you're a sitting duck and his 30x 50cal (all slaved to 1 target) kill you on the spot.
Not necessarily true.... even at the best setup, with drones the most guns that will fire are 5 on each aircraft (total of 15). And that would be the aircraft comin in from a 4 or 8 o'clock position (2x50 in tail, 2x50 in top OR ball, and 1x50 door gun). Even a dead 6 setup would allow just 4x50 from each aircraft. And worst case they hit that sweet spot where the top and ball doesn't even have sight, now you down to 2x50 each. But I get your point.
I wasn't trying to start a pro or con on this subject, was asking why the change? If enough ords can be carried by single buffs, then no formations should be used in all events. If drones are to be used or not used is of no difference to me. I guess I should clarify my thought train here, formations being used or not should solely be based on the type of scenerio and ords needed. Not because they just happen to be available or the reasoning of we want to control another aircraft type not utilizing them.
After looking in the past FSO's, the amount and type of targets could have all been accomplished by NOT using drones. But drones were used, so that is why I posed as to why the change in this one.
My opinion (which is of no importance ;) ) that only singles should be used and only consider drones if the targets are so hardened that the extra ords have to be there. But reasonably, all scenerios that I have been involved in did not require the use of drones. So I posed the question as to why mostly drones before and not now.
Apologies if my original question started any controversy, but I beleive the question was a valid one to be asked and considered.
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Originally posted by AKKaz
My opinion (which is of no importance):)
Your opinion is of great importance. That is why we have this forum, and this is the way to express them.:)
4XTCH
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Originally posted by Krusty
IMO, folks are too overly-reliant on formations. Bombers WERE historically dead meat for any attacking fighters. Even "slow" fighters were able to catch and heavily damage US bombers.
However in this game you get all guns firing on one spot (instead of just 1 position) and you get 3 planes with all their guns firing on one spot.
With 30mm you might get lucky and set something on fire with 1 ping (and hey this happened to me Thursday night!) but most of the time you have to pump most of your ammo into a single plane, and by then you're out of position unable to attack again or you're a sitting duck and his 30x 50cal (all slaved to 1 target) kill you on the spot.
You are all overly reliant on drones. So much so that the escorts weren't set up or in the right spot or whatever. I'm not laying blame, I'm just saying 1) most often the bombers get through on their own (when they have drones) and 2) because of that nobody practices close cover for bombers anymore.
Feel free to tell me I'm stupid, crazy, out of touch, whatever, but I don't think I'm wrong. Academically speaking, the bombers supplied could have got the job done easily. HOW they get the job done is where all the planning comes into play.
EDIT: Before anybody asks, I couldn't be there. Power outage right at FSO time.
Not sure about this, but how often in 'real' life combat would you just saddle up on the six of a buff and blast away? I would be BnZ all the time and believe that would be the tactic that was used. It is a game with flaws to a certain extent, but if I blast away on a guy and have shots all over his nose... in real life, would you stay in that 6 position if you were that pilot? I doubt it...
As far as getting the job done, it is not really that easy when your outnumbered by a sheer mass of 109/190's. Trust me, even 999000 & Tatertot would have been fish in a barrel with thier accuracy. (No offense guys :aok ) We had a good plan, but with a 50/50 split of people, it was not compleatly accurate historically wise was it? I am not sure, just my .02
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Originally posted by Sketch
We had a good plan, but with a 50/50 split of people, it was not compleatly accurate historically wise was it?
This isn't an 8th airforce vs. Luftwaffe scenario with all the german aircraft waiting on defense. Each team has 4 offensive and 4 defensive objectives and the forces are divided as the CIC sees fit.
Both sides have the same limitations. The late war Allied fighters aren't exactly what I would call lemons. And lets not even talk about the Ju88 vs B17/24.
I know it must suck to get stuck with a single bomber and get shot down. That is the only real reason in my mind to change the formations in this scenario. I'd like to see an FSO not change rules midstream.
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Originally posted by Virage
This isn't an 8th airforce vs. Luftwaffe scenario with all the german aircraft waiting on defense. Each team has 4 offensive and 4 defensive objectives and the forces are divided as the CIC sees fit.
Both sides have the same limitations. The late war Allied fighters aren't exactly what I would call lemons. And lets not even talk about the Ju88 vs B17/24.
I know it must suck to get stuck with a single bomber and get shot down. That is the only real reason in my mind to change the formations in this scenario. I'd like to see an FSO not change rules midstream.
I was just wondering people wise is all.... Were the Allies ever really outnumbered in the skies while in buffs I guess is what I am asking? Like 20 B17's against 40 109/190's.
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Sketch: 90% of the gun cam footage from LW planes in WW2 shows rear angle attacks, and most of them get pulled off without instantly being shot down (like would happen in AH).
Also, LW units had their pick of bombers. In massive US air raids, the bombers would be scattered from 25k to 15k, many many miles wide and long. The LW would concentrate 1 squadron on 1 small group of bombers. Perhaps compared to the entire mission the allies were not outnumbered, but compared to the isolated group the LW was attacking at any given moment? Perhaps they were (*shrug*)
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My grandfather flew B-24's with the 98th from Aug 43 to jul 44 and never saw a german fighter. Saw plenty of 88s though.
Vlkyrie1
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Sketch: 90% of the gun cam footage from LW planes in WW2 shows rear angle attacks, and most of them get pulled off without instantly being shot down (like would happen in AH).
I can’t help but wonder if that is due to the editors of the tapes/DVD’s we watch. It is common sense that the best footage would be from rear attacks where the fighters are closing at 200 mph or much less. If a fighter was coming in from the 10 to 2 O’clock position closure rate could be more like 500 mph. Kinda hard to get some good gun camera footage to sell at those speeds.
I have read many accounts that the LW was taught to attack from 10 or 2 O’clock and that attacking from the rear was very dangerous. That is quite obvious in Aces High. Many feared attacking bomber formations because of the deadly firepower the bombers had.
To me it boils down to the fun factor. Those that fly buffs (and most would rather not) would enjoy themselves more if they had drones and having more opportunities for squadies to gun for them. Those attacking bombers would enjoy seeing larger formations and the target rich environment. If the bombers suffer large losses then they would likely lose the frame even if they did a good job of bombing their targets. Over the years it has become pretty obvious in FSO that bombers, even with drones need to be escorted or they will suffer heavy losses.
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Originally posted by daddog
Over the years it has become pretty obvious in FSO that bombers, even with drones need to be escorted or they will suffer heavy losses.
Yep. Its all about the routing, timing and most importantly good comms between the bomber lead and escort lead. If you didn't have those things going for your bombing mission it was gonna be, IMO, doomed from the start anyway formations or not. A well organized mission always stands a better chance of getting thru.
Drano
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Originally posted by trax1
Yeah our Buff's made it to our target and was able to make a second pass and take out every hanger at A22, thanks to the help of ~FATE~ squad, but on our egress we were slaughtered, not one of us was able to take down a 190, we got a couple smoking but there was no way to take one down with a single buff.
Thank you sir. Although we lost most of our pilots, we managed to draw off the 190's long enough to get you to target. WTG on A22 Clowns!:aok
Since we have formations off, I would suggest that if we use bombers for the largest squads.:rolleyes:
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Yea I saw the CiC orders Allies get formations:)
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:aok
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Its all about the fun! And those guys that where flying 1 bomber for 40 min to 20 some K and getting shot down in 2 min where not having fun. Now with Formations available these guys have a better chance of living and hitting there target which of course is more fun!
Ty for giving us Formations.:aok